Mohammed, Iraq is on the road towards peace and prosperity. Keep the faith.
Nasty stuff.
Regards,
Michael
I think it stinks that the reliougous partied did as well as they did. This is not good news for the future
Disturbing analysis.
Thanks for the update.
Having the religious right so powerful in the US is painful, but I am so thankful that we don't have to face a religous dominations such as you are facing. Good luck!!
The release of Dr Germ and Mrs Anthrax is the latest evidence that Iraq was unlawfully invaded on a lie.
Dr Rihab Taha and Huda Salih Ammash were held for two and a half years. Once at the centre of Saddam's efforts to develop biological weapons, they were interrogated as to where he'd stashed his arsenal. We know now that the weapons of mass destruction we were told he possessed - and which were used to justify the attack - were destroyed before the first bombing raids.
While George Bush shrugs and asks who cares about WMD anyway, Tony Blair has a cocky walk of a man on a victory tour after the Iraqi elections. Iraqis queuing at the polls is a cause for celebration, although the car bombs are unlikely to stop soon. But let's not forget the tens of thousands who have died because of a lie about WMD.
Thank's for letting me have my say.
Religious right powerful in the U.S.? When was the last time the state told you to worship, and told you how? When was the last time that a member of the religious right firebombed your place of business because of your political stance? When was the last time that your property was confiscated for church use?
Oh yeah, that's right. Never. Please don't patronize Iraqis with your complaints of a "painfully powerful" religious bloc in the U.S.
Can anyone believe that George Michael and Eric Clapton are to be banished from Iran's official airwaves in the latest assault on "Westoxication" by that mad Mullah President?
Whether or not the parliment is comprised of fundamentalist or secular members is not what is important. What is important, in this first government, is that there is a balance of power amongst the ethnic groups. Out of those 200 fundamentalists, how many are UIA and how many are Sunni?
Dan, like I said, it is bad enough as it is in the States but you are right there are not too many firebombs (unless you are involved with abortion) ect. Iraq has a much bigger problem with the fundamentalists.
well, pretty good analysis, though it comes weeks too late.
I’m afraid the Baghdad-for-Kirkuk deal is done now and there’s nothing I can think of to reverse the new reality which was forced via a democratic practice.
i said this months ago.
because of certain facts, pure democratic practice was going to be dangerous in Iraq.
Dan said:
"But let's not forget the tens of thousands who have died because of a lie about WMD."
What about the tens of thousands who DIDN'T die because Saddam's regime wsa no longer killing them? The most conservative estimates I've seen of deaths at the hands of Saddam's regime is 300,000 - other estimates are higher. Those killings stopped when Saddam was removed from power. If you want to do math with human lives, add in all the factors.
Mohammed, I'm not sure I understand your post. If I interpret it correctly, you're saying that a deal enabled the Kurds to get 51% of the vote in the Kirkuk area, and the UIA to get over 50% of the vote in Baghdad. But what does that all mean in the legislature as a whole? Will the UIA have a majority in the new parliament?
Mohammed - Do not forget about the moderating effect of the Iraqi army. Though many Shia are in power within it, it is an increasingly professional organization and will put an unexericsed break on the Isalmists.
Also in the Bible there is no mention of the nations of the Assyrians nor the Chaldeans as being part of the Perian led muslim/Russian confederation of the last days, although most other ancient middleeastern ehtnic groups are mentioned as members of that coalition that breaks the seven year Anti-Christ negotiated truce with Israel.
Yet the Chaldeans and the Assyrians are not mentioned. Why? Because Iraq will be a success. And when the end comes it will not join with the Iranians against Israel.
Another question I've asked around and never gotten an answer for; why is it that Iraq went with a unicameral parliament? The most successful democracy on the planet has a bicameral legislature; one with elected members representing a small district and completely replaced every 2 years, and one with elected members representing entire provinces with staggered 6 year terms. It's worked pretty well for us - how come Iraq didn't consider it?
How does districting work out in Iraq for electoral purposes? If someone is elected from one of these lists, do they represent a particular district? Do they have to live in the district they represent?
I looked at the numbers all last night from all three elections by governate.
Let's look at another mixed governate, Ninewa (Mosul):
On October 15:
YES -- 45% -- 322,869
NO -- 55% -- 385,889
On December 15:
618 -- 37% -- 302,518
730 -- 19% -- 157,476
731 -- 11% -- 91,661
667 -- 10% -- 82,976
555 -- 7% -- 61,038
The 618 Sunni list (Tawafoq Iraqi Front) here again has done very well, reflecting the fact that Sunnis came out to vote.
Do we hear any Sunnis complaining about the results in Ninewa?
The Sunnis are a MINORITY group in Iraq and they're having trouble accepting this reality.
*
SOUR GRAPES!
Omar, Mohammed,
This Caeneus is SPAMMING. Get rid of him.
*
Hello Omar,
Your analysis makes sense, though I can't imagine what kind of real peace can come from the blood sacrificing of seculars to seal the deal between the sectarians. Iraq will resemble Lebanon in future. All I want is peace now and no Iranian or US troops there. May UIA rule wisely.
Ban this Caeneus guy please.
The results of this election are expected. Iraq will lean toward a religious state. Future politics however will naturally lean more and more liberal. So...the only worry is if the more dominant group resorts to undemocratic means to squash opposition and stop the natural progression. THAT is to be feared and THAT is up to the Iraqi people to prevent.
Anguisel,
I agree with you. After looking at all the available stats for all three votes over the last year, I see nothing strange. Shia and Sunnis and Kurds came out in force. The Sunnis are simply a minority group and they're going to have to accept that. On the other hand, the Shia will have to show magnanimity in victory. They will need both the Sunnis and Kurds in order to govern.
*
Good post Anguisel.
The secular parties like Allawi and the secular members of the main Sunni and Shia parties have been booted out.
This is why I long believed pure democracy could not work in Iraq. The religious leaders basically told the people who to vote for and they did and now the Shia and Kurds are going to break away to form there own states and lead to the disintigration of Iraq and an endless war between the Shia and Sunnis. The Sunnis will never allow themselves to be totally cut off from the oil.
youse gotta wonder if the religious parties will run Iraqi responsibly. Fundelmentism and Islam usually leads to trouble.
Omar, Mohammed,
Thanks. It's much easier to have a conversation now without the spamming.
*
The UIA has no interest in governing over Iraq. All they want to control is the Shia south. And, the Kurds just want their land in the north.
We are seeing the end of Iraq.
And, the beginning of an endless oil war between the Sunnis and Shia.
Cheney's Cheerleading Falls Flat.
Dear Omar
Don't despair, Omar. I voted in 5 General Elections (1979,1983,1987,1992 and 1997)till we got a Labour Government under Tony Blair, with whom I'm very pleased. I was so disappointed in 1992 when I was sure we'd win (I'm a member of the Labour Party), it took me ages to get over it. But provided you keep getting the chance to vote them out, you'll eventually get a Government that pays attention to what the people want. Anyway, best wishes
Jeffrey
Omar, Mohammed,
Oh boy. Double-SPAMMING by Caeneus ought to entail a serious BAN.
Just my opinion as a fellow blogger.
*
Good point Anguisel. Lets wait and see, it's going to take some years to know if we are a success or failure. In the mean time, we know our army isn't too chickenshit to get the job done on not only the war front but the humanitarian as well.
Jeffrey,
You don't get it. Do you really think the pro-Iranian parties are going to allow another election in Iraq?
It will never happen.
The coalition has been fighting the Shia battle now for three years. I only hope they have a Plan B now that the Shia are claiming their prize.
I think they should do the whole election over again. I wonder what Sistani is saying.
Ash,
Tell me how the religous right is so powerful in the US when we can not even say Merry Christmas without people getting offended?
Poll from two weeks ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ast/
4514414.stm
"Only 25% had confidence in Iraq's politicians - far lower than the 67% who trust its religious leaders"
Is it really such a surprise that Iraqis democratically elected a theocracy?
I feel really shitty about these election results, but what can anybody do about it? If that's the way people voted, that's the way they voted.
So far the Shia have been very patient.
The Sunni-backed insurgents/terrorists have been blowing up Shia men, women, and children for a couple years now and there hasn't been a backlash against the Sunnis.
So let's give the Shia the benefit of the doubt for now.
*
The pro-Iranian parties will have four months to either lead Iraq toward reconcilation or to endless war. The most likely outcome right now is the same as we hear at ITM and that they will tell the US very soon to get the hell out of Iraq and they will begain their civil war and the only ones that will benifit greatly are Iran and al-Qaeda. Zarqawi and Ahmadinejad are licking their chops right now.
Al-Qaeda is going to rule Western Iraq, Iran is going to take the oil fields of southern Iraq. And, the middle of the country is going to deal with an endless civil war between Sunni and Shia.
The UIA has several months to either stabilize and unify Iraq or to turn Iraq into an endless battlefield that foreign powers will gobble up.
Jeffrey,
Zarqawi is the only one blowing up Iraqi women and children on mass. And, he has been doing it just to lead to this point where the pro-Iranian parties break away or lash out at the Sunnis and cause a civil war in Iraq.
This is more then Zarqawi could have ever dreamed would happen.
Iraq is very likely about to fall into a very long war.
Justin,
Iraq will be fine.
Sorry if that makes you angry.
*
Justine Capone,
So what do you suggest be done to keep Iraq from falling into a civil war?
Or are you just one of those guys who can only say what WONT work, but has no ideas of his own?
Omar, we will find out this year if Saddam ruled the way he did because Iraq is the way it is. Or if Iraq is the way it is because Saddam was the way he was.
Can Iraq be ruled any other way than with an Iron Fist? Let's hope so.
A DIFFERENT CHRISTMAS POEM
The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,
I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
My wife was asleep, her head on my chest;
My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,
Transforming the yard to a winter delight.
The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,
Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,
Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,
So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.
The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,
But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know,
Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,
And I crept to the door, just to see who was near.
Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,
A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,
Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,
Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.
"What are you doing?" I asked without fear,
"Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!
Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,
You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"
For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,
Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts,
To the window that danced with a warm fire's light.
Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,
I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."
"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,
That separates you from the darkest of times.
No one had to ask or beg or implore me,
I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December.
Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."
My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',
And now it is my turn and so, here I am.
I've not seen my own son in more than a while,
But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.
Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,
The red, white, and blue.. an American flag.
"I can live through the cold and the being alone,
Away from my family, my house and my home.
I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,
I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
I can carry the weight of killing another,
Or lay down my life with my sister and brother,
Who stand at the front against any and all,
To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."
"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,
Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
"But isn't there something I can do, at the least,
"Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?"
It seems all too little for all that you've done,
For being away from your wife and your son."
Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget,
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember that we fought and we bled,
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you, as you mattered to us.
WE ALL NEED TO PRAY FOR OUR MILITARY PERSONNEL EVERY NIGHT!
cheers ya'll! P2
myths liberals are now trotting out.
1) after a war and years of being apart along with one being arab and the other persian,Iran is now going to just "take"iraq because someone read the shiite somewhere. duuuuuh..
2)because ALL muslims are extremists (in the liberal media on this point) ALL RELIGIOUS people are automatically evil. Even though they'll never admit their socialism is a religion..
3) try as they might, they can't stand to think that this war is about freedom and changing the ME from within. In the back of their heads its always about the oil.
just like they think its all about economic wealth other than the three other wealths:prestige, political or religious.
free societies demand faith in: your neighbors, the process, yourself. liberals haver only one faith. THE STATE.
"Representatives of secular Shi'ite former prime minister Iyad Allawi and two major Sunni Arab groups, the Iraqi Accordance Front and the secular Iraqi Unified Front, along with other groupings, met on Wednesday to coordinate."
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/...k/
MAC160883.htm
Thanks people.
You naysayers need to examine history a little bit better.
Just because a "Democracy" is influenced by religion does not make it suddenly not a democracy. An American style democracy will not work in the Middle East. All of the critics have been saying this for years. Unfortunately they are unwilling to allow that other countries have a democracy nothing like America. The worry in this religious democracy of Iraq is mistreatment of people based on false interpretations of the muslim religion. I would put forth that if the muslim religion is just as capable of good or evil as any other through out history that in a democratic society it will naturally gravitate toward goodness unless controlled by the few evil. Again that is the concern and this is why it will take a vigilant people in Iraq for years to come. If they become unhappy with religious dominance they CAN vote them out next time. The question is will the dmoninant party let that happen? If they truly believe in democracy they will. All we can do is be there for them and help guide them in the right direction. We must be a counter balance to other countries influence such as Iran, Syria, etc. With that balance the Iraqis will see all sides and, God willing, make the right choices as they learn more and more what democracy is.
what a waste of blue....
Well, Well, Well....
And you are surprised...why exactly?
Fact is Omar, Iraqis, and Arabs in general, are sheep.
Yes Sheep. Its a fact. They do not stand up for themselves against their own rulers - we even see this on the family level of things - though shall not question thy elder. It is this type of BS that leads to backwardness and stagnation. Ideas that are 1400 years old are just as valid today as they were 1400 years ago.
So when a mullah says "go vote", the populus says "but of course!" and when the mullah says "Kill your daughter, she made out with a guy", the populus says "Knife or gun?"
tsk tsk
The culture is the problem.
All democracy does is make the culture evident. And so you got 200 Islamists.
Why are you surprised? Its not like the Iraqis were reading the federalist papers in their spare time.
I think only two things will save you:
1) A miracle
2) 1000 years of figuring it out, just as the Europeans did in the dark ages.
Just curious: why the complaints about the links?
Isn't Sistani the spiritual head of the Shia in Iraq, not Khamenei? Will that make things different in Iraq if (when) the religious leaders become the political leaders? I think it's been mentioned before that Iran is different than Iraq in that the vast majority of Iranians are Shia, and there is a considerable contingent of Iraq that is not - this cannot be ignored. Maybe Sistani is wise enough to consider this (as many of his actions would lead us to believe) and strong enough to control the urges of the leaders with less "impulse control."
Craig is right in that it is their country, and if they want no separation of religion and state they then that's what they will get. Remember that the West was that way for quite a while, too, and it changes eventually, as society becomes more complex, refined.
Iraqi vote points to Islamist path.
It stinks that these religious parties won. It will only be harder for them to get a government formed. These guys are not peace-loving opened minded people. That's for sure.
Me against my brother; me and my brother against my cousin; me, my brother and my cousin against the stranger.
Do the Shia, Sunni and Kurdish Sunni see each other as cousins? How do they view the Iranians, who are not Arab? Not Iraqi?
Maybe, even with the "discouraging" election results, these groups will band together to defend against outside pressures. Maybe that's what will stop the "inevitable" civil war.
There are probably too many factors involved to predict anything accurately - maybe the best thing to do for the present time is to just sit back and watch as things unfold.
Caeneus,
Several articles I wanted to read were yanked. Could I trouble you to e-mail me with the links? (I tried opening your page and had no luck).
Jomhuri-ye Eslami-ye Afghanestan (Islamic Republic of Afghanistan) is Sunni Muslim 80%, Shi'a Muslim 19%, other 1%.
Get that, the parliament is 80% Sunni and is a strong allie of the US Government.
The big difference is the Sunnis in Afghanistan are anti Al Qaeda and anti Terrorist.
Iraq, as it is currently heading is actually far more diverse. Even the Shia under Sistani are different than the Shia in Iran. Only Mookie's Shia boys are pro-Iranian. That is the only bunch to watch.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publicati...ok/geos/
af.html
caenus=anus
I don't understand the Baghdad for Kirkuk deal?
Can you lay out the individual parties in each alliance and which are Islamist (hard line or otherwise) and which are secular.
Is Kirkuk the city where Saddam forcibly re-populated Kurds with Arabs or is that Mosul?
Caeneus,
There is NO LOWER LIFE-FORM than a SPAM-TROLL.
A SPAM-TROLL is a moron who can't speak for himself.
*
Caenus - if you really have to link to all these articles, perhaps you could put all the links in one post, instead of many different ones.
I.......He's a prick. Simple as that.
Caenus, got them that go-around--thanks.
UIA = 41% L7%
Mike,
Kirkuk is the city where Saddam forcabley displaced the Kurds, although there were also large numbers of Kurds which left due to fear of persicution (as opposed to being forcably relocated).
P2 - what a tear jerker of a poem; it's a wonder the brave and honourable have such tough exteriors and such soft hearts.
Is religion and state ever actually separated? The United States was built on Christian beliefs and those beliefs govern the judicial systems more than they don't. Why do people think there is so much controversy over abortion and homosexual rights. anyhow.
Is it any wonder Iraqis choose not to separate religion and state? No, not at all - their religion defines them and how they want to be governed as a whole. Let's hope those that lead are merciful, forgiving, and honourable men and women.
Had enough? Can we just kill them now?
My question will be what level of control Sistani will take behind the scenes. If he's in firm control, the effect on civil liberties will be lessened. I just hope Al-Sadr has a serious accident shaving, before Sistani does.
Problem with democracy; it often doesn't turn out the way you'd predict. But still; it is the right way to do things. All we can do is hope for the best at this point.
This is really quite grand. I'm not surprised at all that a society, having been crushed beneath the heel of a secular government for thirty years, takes its first chance in a democracy to overcompensate with a religious response.
Please keep in mind that Khomeni replaced the Shah, not through democracy, but by revolt. Iraq is a much more diverse nation that is going to look very strange to people for a while.
There is nothing to say that religious leaders can't operate successfully in a democratic process. This will no more split the nation into quadrants any more than any other election has in the past.
It is going to be okay. It was obvious that this government, for starters, was going to skew more toward the religious end. Nevertheless, it is a parliament, and is bound to have factions within the religious wing that can be allied with on certain issues.
Just because there are a lot of religious representatives doesn't mean they all think alike!
Iraq, as it is currently heading is actually far more diverse. Even the Shia under Sistani are different than the Shia in Iran. Only Mookie's Shia boys are pro-Iranian. That is the only bunch to watch.--RG
LOL--what an idiot! You are ALWAYS wrong! Muqtada's anti-Iranian! SCIRI is pro-Iranian.
RG- you get everything screwed up, like your hero Bush. You should be nice to Muqtada! He wanted to work out a deal with the Sunnis, was quite friendly to them during Fallujah. He is just like you, xenophobic, backward and religious. If you got the hell out of his country, he'd like you even more! You two have a lot in common.
This result should finally shatter any remaining illusions (if any ITM readers still harbour them) that this blog "respresents" anything more than a very, very isolated pro-US view within Iraq.
Riverbend was right. Juan Cole was right. ITM was wrong, again and again.
The US chickenhawks who use blogs like this to justify their own neocon ideas have been proved just as misguided as the Fadhil brothers themselves.
From RJ Eskow:
The mission of "exporting democracy" to Iraq had four key goals:
1. To create a US-friendly nation in the region
2. To build a working model of democracy as the neocons conceived it for the Middle East
3. To provide
Israel with an ally in the Arab world (which Chalabi had promised to deliver)
4. To isolate
Iran from the Arab world
What have we gotten instead, for the massive loss of American and Iraqi life and the hundreds of billions of dollars spent so far?
1. A country where 82% of the population "strongly opposes" our presence and 45% support armed attacks against US troops
2. A highly conservative, religiously-based electorate that's a far cry from the neocon vision of liberal democracy
3. A country that appears to be drawing closer and closer to Israel's enemies
4. A new ally and sister country to Iran, with similar religious and political beliefs.
I don't quite understand the Baghdad for Kirkuik reference either.
I understand that they allowed 200,000 additional Kurdish voters (who had been forcibly expelled by Saddam) to reregister in Kirkuik. Effectively guaranteeing the Kurds 51%.
But how was the voting in Baghdad influenced?
I also understand that since the UIA won the majority, they get to pick the Prime Minister but aren't seats in the parliament awarded by district? So how many seats did the UIA win all together? The Prime Minister can't rule by himself. He has to have the help of the parliament and if the parliament does not have an overwhelming majority from the UIA, the parties are going to have to come to some sort of agreement.
(In the future, I really would think you would want to make voting for the Prime Minster separate. I hate the idea you don't have any say on who the Prime Minster will be.)
Kirkuk is the center of northern oil development. The Kurds HAD to cut deals with the She’at for Kirkuk. The Bathist-sunni-secularists only offered a continuation of their belligerent stupidity.
The She’at-Kurd deal for Kirkuk was inevitable. The Kurds will get northern oil. The She’at will get southern oil. The Bathist remnants will be managed, brutally if necessary. (Never poke the Eagle!).
The US tried to control Chalabi. It was clear that Chalabi was setting up an Iranian style She’at political faction when he bargained to let Al-Sadr off the hook. The She’at sheeple will get their religious daydream and Chalabi will get the power. I’m afraid She’at religious police will make Saudi Mutawah look like school boys.
A long religious-socialist daydream has begun. It will be paid for by oil. It will not succor individualism, capitalism or democracy. The Iraqi population will explode to unmanageable levels. And just like the Saudi, in fifty years when the oil drains away, Iraq will be in a world of hurt. Saddam and his merry band of morons may get their wish of self-destruction fulfilled afterall.
There is only one system on earth that works. That is democracy-capitalism under secular management. It requires a strong work ethic. We in the USA would be thrilled if the Iraqi people learned that. But, we cannot make that happen. Try to explain it to your fellow citizens Mohammad and Omar. Your country’s future depends on it.
By the way, Mohammed and Omar, about those pro-US propaganda pieces planted in the Iraqi press....
Anything to tell us????
oops Ta was me. Accidently hit the enter button.
As far as being a sister country to Iran, most of you are missing the boat.
Sistani is the largest most, influential Shia leader in Iraq (who happens to be Iranian) but he is not a fan of the Iranian political system. A matter of fact, he is a fan of democracy.
No, you will not see a US style democracy in Iraq but neither will you see an Iranian style theocracy.
Iraq will be uniquely Iraqi and will probably require decades to evolve.
And you would think gandhi who is
SUCH a huge fan of Juan Cole would know that.
OOPS, just remembered, Juan Cole has never been to Iran or Iraq, has he?
So much for being an expert.
And don't tell me you can know the moon without ever having actually been there. Personal experience trumps book knowledge every time, especially since our well educated brothers ACTUALLY LIVE in IRAQ. But you don't believe that because they don't agree with YOU.
How self-absorbed can one person get?
The reality is it is almost out of the U.S.A.'S hands as it concerns Iraqi politics. This country's only real leverage in the near future will be our cash. Youse just got to hope that Iraq doesn't just fall apart into different factions who are just looking to kill each other
ghandi you're a fool if you think the USA should continue to be poked by Saddam because self-determination in Iraq might be dangerous for them.
So what do you suggest be done to keep Iraq from falling into a civil war?
---------------------------------
The US has to collect info proving massive vote fraud (which I am sure they have already done) and threaten the UIA that if they don't create a coalition government that they will declare the election totally illegitimite and side with the Sunnis.
TaSS,
Oil revenue will separate Iran from Iraq more convincingly than Sistani will. Iraqi She'at will not wish to share their oil wealth with their Iranian brothers. I don't think it will be a hostile relationship. Cooperation is in both parties interests.
Justin,
The UIA does not have 2/3 majority. RIGHT NOW they will have to go to the Sunnis and Kurds in order to form a coaltion government.
*
"So what do you suggest be done to keep Iraq from falling into a civil war?"
The She'at and Kurds are already getting what they want. Only the Sunni-Bathists are fighting and their tactics alienate. It is presently as much of a civil war as it is going to get. The Bathists have been decimated by the Eagle. Present Bathist belligerency is all they can manage. With US training, the She'at/Kurds will overcome them.
Don't poke the Eagle!
Now it is not good
For the Christian’s health
To hustle the Aryan brown,
For the Christian riles
And the Aryan smiles
And he wearth the Christian down;
And the end of the fight
Is a tombstone white
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear,
“A fool lies here
Who tried to hustle the East."
— Rudyard Kipling
Well, Well, Well....
And you are surprised...why exactly?
Fact is Omar, Iraqis, and Arabs in general, are sheep.
Yes Sheep. Its a fact. They do not stand up for themselves against their own rulers - we even see this on the family level of things - though shall not question thy elder. It is this type of BS that leads to backwardness and stagnation. Ideas that are 1400 years old are just as valid today as they were 1400 years ago.
So when a mullah says "go vote", the populus says "but of course!" and when the mullah says "Kill your daughter, she made out with a guy", the populus says "Knife or gun?"
tsk tsk
The culture is the problem.
All democracy does is make the culture evident. And so you got 200 Islamists.
Why are you surprised? Its not like the Iraqis were reading the federalist papers in their spare time.
I think only two things will save you:
1) A miracle
2) 1000 years of figuring it out, just as the Europeans did in the dark ages.
So what do you suggest be done to keep Iraq from falling into a civil war?
Justin Capone | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:31 pm | #
You fool. The best thing that can happen for the civilized world is more fighting in Iraq. Dead Muslims can't kill infidels.
I see two possibilities to form the 2/3 majority necessary to select a Presidential Council.
1) The UIA links up with the Iraq Accord Sunnis and the Mutlak Sunni forces and agrees on a withdrawal timetable for US forces, an end to the Sunni insurgency (most of it), and the removal of Shi'ite militiamen from the Interior Department and the officer corps of the new Iraqi army. The Kurds are on the outside of the new government, but they get Kirkuk and near-total autonomy.
or
2) The UIA links up with the Kurds like in the old arrangement. The Sunnis give up on democracy altogether and go back to the insurgency. The UIA continues staffing the Interior with Badr Corps and the civil war keeps slogging along indefinitely. Oh, and the Kurds get Kirkuk and near-total autonomy.
There is no way for non-UIA forces to gain a 2/3 vote.
Allah's Cousin:
I vote for the miracle.
Regards,
Michael
tommy, the natural alliance is for Kurds and She'ats to protect their oil from outside incursion. The Sunni minority is out of the picture. There is no reason for Iraqi Kurds and She'at to be hostile to the USA. There is no reason to expect hostility from the Bathists to increase. The Bathists are giving it all they got now. The Kurds and She'at will supress them. The USA is showing them how.
Does everyone understand why the USA disbanded Saddam's army and created a new Kurd/She'at loyal army?
Don't poke the Eagle! That's the message.
I vote for the miracle. - Michael
good one
"OOPS, just remembered, Juan Cole has never been to Iran or Iraq, has he?":
I have been to both both Iraq and Iran in the 1970s and, IMO, Juan Cole has it about right (or, at least, he is closer to reality than the administration and the neocons are). You see, its all dependent on who you talk to.
I remember when I used to travel to Iran, which at that time was ruled by the Shah's administration, I knew that there would be some sort of big trouble eventually. But it was not only me. Everybody else who traveled to Iran knew it, the company I worked for knew it and the other companies in the same industry who did business in Iran knew it. And, I would think, many Iranians knew it. So how was it that our government did not know it?
This was a question for, for many years, which I had no answer. Then I read an article by one of the diplomats who was serving in Iran at that time. And he explained our failure in this way: We knew about the various incidents but when we talked to the Iranian officials or business people and other "establishment" figures they would reply that everything was under control and we should not worry. And so it is know with our administration and the neocons: they have been talking to the wrong people. And so it is with the "brothers": They would have more credibility if they where posting from the south side of Baghdad.
BTW the "brothers" are not now living in Iraq and have not been living there for some time. I will leave you to guess in which country they are now living.
TaSS, how many times have you been to Iraq?
First to anon, neocon is a code word, a slur if you will. It is not taken to mean some lose collection of people who share a POV. It is taken as a slur.
next to my working jib friend: I have it on good authority that the Iraqi army, by and large, likes the Americans they've met.
there may be something in what you say.
I wonder what would be peoples reaction to learn the Puritans and the Quakers, along with a bunch of other overly pompous religous zealots won by a massive land side the first few election's in the US?
Religions, all religions, provide to those that practice them a sense of stability and hope.
Is it any surprise that people living in an unstable environment undergoing rapid social change would turn towards religion?
As long as the UIA ends up with less than 138 seats in parliament, things will work out. Last I checked, it has been a very long time since the Puritans or Quakers won a landslide election in the US.
Justin,
there will be much rattling of sharp sabres and many more sharp words exchanged. But there will be no civil war because it is Zarqawi and Iran who want it, not the people of Iraq. From the last elections the insurgents realized that enforcing a boycott cost them dearly in political power. From this election they will realize that bombs and guns are driving the shia into the arms of their ayatollahs. There will be violence - there always is in this part of the world. But the ex-baathi who held together Saddam's government are not stupid. They will look at the polls and realize that they are outnumbered more than 3-to-1. They will take their amnesty and block to Iranian efforts to control the courts and the armies. The real war will be fought in the backrooms of Bagdhad where alliances will be formed and deals brokered. It will be the war of politics to keep sectarians from making their power permanent. Further terrorist and insurgent activity now serves to strengthen the hand of Iran more than any other. If there is one thing the baathi hate more than americans, it is probably Iranians. Just be patient, birth is always painful.
working jib. It should be noted that it is in the best interests of kurdistan to prevent Baghdad from becoming a reflection of Tehran.
Anonymous,
Been to Iran lately?
Don't think so.
The Iran of today, and especially the young population, is not the Iran of the 70's.
And the brother's say they are in Baghdad. If you have other, knowledgeable and PROVABLE information, please bring it forward.
If not, disappear into the flurry of unsupported accusations that anonymous posters seem to be so fond of.
Ash,
I don't represent myself as an expert.
moron99,
I concur on this issue. Over the next couple months the real action will be behind closed doors. There will still be histrionics outside those rooms as the politicos maneuver for leverage, but eventually a government will be formed.
*
...and threaten the UIA...":
And, thereby, demonstrate to the whole world that Iraq is just our imperial possession.
"...is it any surprise that people living in an unstable environment undergoing rapid social change would turn towards religion?"
Soldier's Dad, you are exactly right. As long as the new Iraqi body politic does not allow the new constitution to be subverted, the country will move forward. And given democratic Iraq's enemies, within and without, both secular Iraqis and practicing Muslims with goodwill toward fellow citizens of differing ethnicity will need great courage from every source, including religious belief. It ain't gonna be easy, for sure... but it's a very long way from a lost cause just yet. Still, the chorus of triumphant "I told you so's" in the months ahead will be deafening. It's up to Iraqis who believe in the New Iraq to prove them wrong But of course, progress to date has already proved the do-nothing crowd wrong already.
marine dad, from what I've read, the dems are inept at directing the US Military to serve American interests. US Democrats are as likely to support foreign interests as they are to support American interests.
Anon - "And, thereby, demonstrate to the whole world that Iraq is just our imperial possession."
That's an exageration. The USA has influence in Iraq. The USA has influence all over the world. No country is an island anymore. The world also has influence over the USA.
I detect the unmistakable pawprints of a fox in the hen (chickenhawk) house :*)
"TaSS, how many times have you been to Iraq?" - Ash
Once, long time ago and could only get a visa for five days I think. Could not take any pictures and was told to keep my nose clean. Some things I have to be told only one time.
Regards,
Michael
I also vote for the miracle.
And Allah's Cousin, it is "thou shalt not" not "though", though I do enough typos that it might be just that; just figured you might want to know if it wasn't just a typo (few modern speakers of English are familiar with that now archaic form of speech...it used to be the English familiar form, go figure).
moron99 - "working jib. It should be noted that it is in the best interests of kurdistan to prevent Baghdad from becoming a reflection of Tehran."
I don't know that the Kurds care about Baghdad. They prefer autonomy and they won't get that by sharing control of Baghdad. Control of Kirkuk is key to the Kurds, not Baghdad.
Juan Cole is a CLOWN.
The only reason he keeps putting his gigantic foot in his mouth is his ability to never get embarassed.
If nearly everybody wasn't running to a mosque every few hours, it wouldn't be Iraq. This isn't going to be terribly different in the near future, and I suspect many of the "liberals" do not want drastic change - like burning all the mosques, or murdering all the religious people. But that is what you would have to do to exterminate religion in Iraq. In America the "liberals" have worked for several decades via the schools and the courts to exterminate Christianity--with only modest success.
'And so it is know with our administration and the neocons: they have been talking to the wrong people. And so it is with the "brothers": They would have more credibility if they where posting from the south side of Baghdad.'
--Anon
One major problem with Bush's whole concept was to 'import' ex-patriate Iraqis (educated, secular, sophisticated,etc.) to set up a government in a country, where tough angry people have barely survived by their 'connections'. I detect hard feelings against these fortunate few by the masses, who the neocons consistantly ignored.
OTH, in Afghanistan Bush (CIA, more likely) got it right with the Loya Jurga democracy approach, working with local people.
'BTW the "brothers" are not now living in Iraq and have not been living there for some time. I will leave you to guess in which country they are now living.'
Guess where Raed is?
That doesn't matter in the slightest. Because it is a damnable shame that the secular elite of Iraq which is vital to the happiness of the country is driven out by violence. This would not have happened if Bush had not stuck them in as his 'puppets'.
Moral of the story.
'But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever....Never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking.'
Capice?
Is this good or bad?
Moral of the story.
'But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever....Never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking.'
Capice?
lol!!!
exguru - "In America the "liberals" have worked for several decades via the schools and the courts to exterminate Christianity--with only modest success."
Is 'anti-christian' the new definition of 'liberal' now?
working jib,
a significant portion of kurdistan is within the borders of Iran. If the Kurds allow 555 to islamicise the court system then they are also giving up hope on reclaiming eastern kurdistan. On the other hand, a secular bagdhad greatly destabalizes the Iranian mullocracy and improves the stature of eastern Kurdistan.
anonymouse - "This would not have happened if Bush had not stuck them in as his 'puppets'."
Oh no! Not another puppet detective!
Galletador,
Thank you for pointing that out. I cant believe I missed that one - in the heat of the moment my brain had to sacrifice some other function...good thing it chose the spelling center of my brain and not the heart beating. hehe
-Allah's cousin
moron99, the Kurds have no hope of reclaiming eastern Kurdistan. The Iranians will never give it up and defense of it is probably the real reason the Iranians are building a bomb.
The Kurds are mostly Sunni. They are not secular. But they seem to support secular government for now. That may change.
I don't think we'll see a secular Baghdad again in our lifetime. Nobody has the will to enforce that the way Saddam did. A religious Baghdad isn't the end of the world. The Turks won't like it. But, why should we care?
Who says time travel is impossible?
A historian wanting to do a documentary on the Dark Ages of Europe can just travel to the Middle East!
It amazes me....even as an Arab myself, how people in the Arab world are SO narrowminded, SO indoctrinated...I mean, doesnt everyone have a little part of their brain that doubts, questions, and asks? Where is that part in their head? Isnt there an anti-sheep circuit? The seat of individuality? Where is it in the Arabs?...
...sigh..
ROFL
Hey...
Sorry some of you are mad that America is succeding YET again. It must really drive ya nuts.
Don't worry you can always tell yourself no matter what happens that America failed. Its kinda like thinking the American economy is in the crapper. Another humorous and sad falacy. I feel bad for people who are depressing themselves by believing all this bad news.
Oh noes the sky is falling! lol
Personally I prefer to look at the cold hard facts and accentuate the positive. Any of you who have ever played a sport know that if you go into a game thinking you will lose...you will lose. By the arguements here you would never see a Miracle on Ice of the equivelent because the team would never even play.
Think about it. Negative people always lose. I'll take the winning positive side. kthxbye!
Allah's Cousin "Isnt there an anti-sheep circuit?"
I think they discovered a 'God' gene. Maybe they should get tested?
Why is it such a shock that the Kurdistan Alliance won a majority in Kirkuk? They did well in the January elections as well. I suppose that Mohammed is implying that the Kurds cheated in Kirkuk... if that is so, then say it. Kirkuk is Kurdish and Kurdistani, and it will not be forgotten.
TaSS said:
"In the future, I really would think you would want to make voting for the Prime Minster separate. I hate the idea you don't have any say on who the Prime Minster will be."
That's not going to change unless they amend the constitution to scuttle the parliamentary system in favor of a presidential system. Under a parliamentary system, if a party wins big, the party's leader becomes PM.
One drawback of the parliamentary system is as you've described. One virtue however, is that American-style gridlock is less likely, since the governing party controls both the executive and the legislative branches.
Life's full of trade-offs.
(And before anyone objects, let me add that a little gridlock can sometimes be a good thing.)
The USA isn't a secular country and it hasn't slowed us down one bit. Russia and China are secular and they're a mess.
OOoh goody!
Saddam claimed at trial that he was physically abused during his captivity by the US. Now we can get some legitimate pics of tighty whiteys!
BTW the "brothers" are not now living in Iraq and have not been living there for some time. I will leave you to guess in which country they are now living.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:59 pm | #
I have heard this statement 2 or 3 times the last couple of days. I have never seen any proof, links, or sources to back it up. Just the statements. If you know something the rest of us don't, please share.
I'm glad you threw in that last parenthetical comment, Foreigner - I believe the "gridlock" aspect of the American system is it's strongest asset. 
Some call it gridlock. Others call it checks and ballances.
Maybe next time, secular Iraqis and Sunni's will reach out to their Shia brothers in a substantial way.
When people face change, they either contract or expand. You've seen a result of the contraction (circling the wagons). You can't beat the Shia when you do this. Their wagon is BIGGER.
Hopefully it's a lesson learned.
Our President is directly elected by the American people (partitioned and weighted in favor of the states by the Electoral College). POTUS has the power of veto. Why would an Iraqi Prime Minister, not elected by the Iraqi people, veto himself?
When we went into Iraq, how could we have known that the Bathist Sunni would be THAT stupid?
Whether we admit it or not, America has an empire. We rule the world by rhetoric and economic power and cultural appeal, and only occasionally by force. Other nations defer to us because we seem to know what we're doing, and also to believe in it. The moment we lose faith in our own superiority, it's over. The age of American influence will end. A younger, more ambitious, certainly less altruistic nation will fill the vacuum we leave. America itself will recede to second-tier relevance in global affairs: Canada, but more crowded.
It's a depressing thought, not just for us, but also for the rest of the world. It's bound to happen someday. It'll happen a whole lot sooner if the war in Iraq is perceived by Americans as a disaster.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1028...284169/
#051220a
Can we put a bullet into Saddam's face now?
or maybe drop him on Uncle Floyd's pig farm from 30,000 feet.
Maury, that's an exageration. The USA certainly has some influence in the world, but we don't rule it. We'd need a MUCH bigger army for that!
The coalition Omar sees happening will just lead to gridlock. Sunni and Shia Islamists will only agree on one thing,getting the U.S. out. After that,four years of nothing at all. In the next parliament,all three executive members have veto power,not just the PM.
At any rate,Bush claims victory. He wants to declare peace and go home. Of course,gridlock worked well in the U.S. for a couple decades,so who knows...it may be just the ticket for Iraq.
"The USA certainly has some influence in the world, but we don't rule it."
The fella was referring to economic and cultural hegemony,not force.
Maury - "The fella was referring to economic and cultural hegemony,not force."
Then I think that fella would be wrong again. Human beings throughout the world have similar wants and desires. We all have commonalities.
If Americans exhibit cultural and economic success then it may be copied but it certainly isn't forced. People make choices. I like our choices that we have made in the USA. I am happy to have earned my own home and vehicles and now I can play on the internet. Word gets around that I'm a happy guy. Other people want it. How is that hegemony?
In my view, the ingredients for national success are:
* Human rights for all
* Democracy
* Freedom of religion
* Free speech
* Opportunity for all (but not equal wealth--if you want to be rich, you gotta work like crazy and take risks)
* Free market economics except where "commons" problems exist (i.e. environmental impacts)
* All children are educated
* No entitlement mentality that comes from pervasive government assistance programs
* Strong private property rights
* Effective court system
* Effecitve police/security
* Low taxation
* Smaller government
* Multi-tier government
Why do people think that the UIA will turn out to be that bad?
They haven't been so far since the interim election
Goosey-Gandhi, a member of the "reality-based community".
Still no comments on your blog, Gandhi? Hmmmm.
However, Gandhi wasn't an idiot.
Louise,
The only ones who HAVE commented on Ghandi's blog were Exlaxadios, Waddard, and a couple of other wackos.
No wonder Gandhi's blog had a recent post saying it may no longer continue. Typical liberal failure...
Barzani said that kurd will go their own way if civil war erupted between Arab Sunni-Shiaa....and at a time when was the peak of the civilian casualities on both sides ....hardly a day passes by without 60 or more blown up ....rightly so ,he is 100% correct why do you want the kurd to participate in the killing by siding on either side !? it is illogic !
The kurds sucrifices and casualities far outway both sides Sunni-Shiaa in the last 80 years including the latest casualities figures ,after the liberation of Iraq !
Do n't give all that c...we all suffered as quantative and qualitive is not ,you suffered far less !
The kurds still has not decided with whom to form alliance ...they stated publicly the Shiaa block did n't carry out any of the agreement and promises they had with regard to Kirkuk in implementing the article 58 TAL , they(Shiaa) even held up the 100 million dollars set up for the city for construction ....the city lives up on charity ,and the filth every where !the kurds refugee the originals still lives in the slums !while the Baathis(both Sunni and Shiaa) occupying and living inside it ...
Every single child in Iraq knows well too well the Northern part of Iraq is Kurdish including kirkuk ,decades of fight with Iraqi central gov ,and the heavy Arabization of the city and other areas is not for no reason simply because is a kurdish city ....the same with Khanaqeen just to enlighten you ,the kurdish vote over 100 000 while for the shiaa the number they gained on 2 hands ....
Any alliance with any group has to take in consideration the kurds strong sentements ,revising the Arabization policy of Saddam ,and decentralised power in Baghdad Federal.....
Enough robbery and thefts !
We had more than enough !
All they wanted and all they knew they were able to get was 33% of the seats which can give them the veto right in the parliament but the Baghdad-for-Kirkuk deal with the Kurds allowed both of them to get the at least the 51% majority, each in his region of interest.
Are you seriously suggesting that an Iraqi form of 'strategic voting' was in place here?
Geez, I hope you ar not. We don't even do 'strategic voting' well here in the West and we have had DECADES of opportunities.
The basic facts might well be:
A. Lots of rather poor and ummm let's say 'unsophisticated' Shiites in Baghdad who voted for the authority figures they knew. Islam is now the problem; your challenge is to make it a solution in the future.
B. Lots of Kurds in Kirkuk. More Kurds than others which is what they have always claimed and which makes sense considering the wave of Kurds who have been moved back into the area recently.
This seems less like a 'deal' than the natural result of facts on the ground. It's not really a 'good' thing but it is probably a 'real' thing.
The question is --- How do Iraqis overcome these inherent problems and agree to work together to rebuild the country. Either you hang together or you will likely all hang individually. Dubai or Somalia. It's a free choice.
As someone said on the net today. The US Invasion did not guarantee that Iraqis would make the 'right' choices in order to move forward rather than head for the usual ME self-destruction.
All the Invasion did was give the Iraqis the CHANCE to do so. It's Iraq's choice. I still feel that they will in the end, chose wisely, even with too many Islamists running around loose.
Could some of you (you know who you are) please refrain from name calling? I really wish those supporting our president's policies would make the effort to argue the facts and stop making our side look petty and childish.
Goosey Gandhi, I like that!
"This Caeneus is SPAMMING. Get rid of him."
Perhaps if Caeneus changed his screen name to "Bob" it would be more acceptable? As I recall, there was a Bob used to be the "link king" around here, and it was approved of back then. Or, if "Bob" is still taken, perhaps something more mundanely American? "Jack" is still open isn't it?
Leaving aside the fact that a great number of the regular posters here (not all, but a fairly high percentage all things considered) approve of more religiosity in American politics, and yet disapprove of it in Iraqi politics… It is not unexpected that the religious parties have taken such a strong position in the new government. I was hoping for a different outcome, but I wasn't expecting it. I tend to agree in large part with Anguisel, with the exception of her confidence that "[f]uture politics however will naturally lean more and more liberal", and I would remind her of the recent Iranian elections (admittedly not free and open elections, but, among the choices they were allowed, which appears to have been between the known corrupt and the fundie, they went with a fundie for President). But, Iraq is not Iran, and Sistani is not Khomeini, so I'm not expecting an immediate surrender to theocracy in Iraq (could be wrong about that one, but I'm not expecting it).
The thing that worries most is Mohammed's prediction that: "[O]f course the "elected" government will soon ask the “occupiers” nicely-and maybe violently-to leave Iraq…". (emphasis added) I think most people know that we are going to leave Iraq in the reasonably foreseeable future, question is precisely when and what we leave behind. I'm no fan of the notion that we ought to be leaving too awfully soon. I think that the presence of MNF troops is probably the guarantee against a real civil war replacing the low grade civil war that's running there now. And I believe it is also the guarantee that there will be another election in four years. I'm hoping that we're not asked to pack and head home too precipitously, as we will almost certainly leave when asked by the Iraqi government. The Bush Administration is already looking for the exits; ain't decided to "cut and run" as they call it (still get too much political mileage out of their efforts to pin that on Democrats who don't want to do that either), but they are actively looking for the exits, ready to roll that way soon as they think they can get away with it without horrible repercussions here at home.
I've been hoping that the Iraqi wouldn't ask us to leave too soon; I'm still hoping that. I'm hoping that Mohammed is just being in a black mood here over the religious parties apparent successes beyond his hopes and expectations, and he's over reacted to that, but I gotta his trust his analysis of the Iraqi political scene more than my own uneducated hopes. Still hope he's wrong on that one though. I pin my hopes on this thought:
The Iraqi security forces are still not strong enough to properly, decisively, and guaranteed, for-sure, defend the Iraqi government. There has been improvement of course, not so much as either of our governments would like to pretend, but improvements, but it's still not enough to guarantee a government "win" against the militias if the militias decide to go at it against the elected government. If we accept that the Iraqi elected whom they wanted to elect, got the government they deserve, and if we stay the hell OUT OF their domestic political squabbles (other than advice and "good offices"), if we let them settle things among themselves, then they may very well decide that we are indeed their guarantee that they can basically run the country for the next four years, subject only to the wrath of the people they govern (which they'll have to face in any event). We may be able to convince them that they won; we accept it; we back ‘em against the losers if it comes to that. And that may keep them from showing us the exits too soon.
On a brighter note: Religious parties, ideologues of all stripes, tend to bring themselves into disrepute rapidly when they get political power. I've read that Iran is one of the least religious of all Muslim nations among its younger people, those growing up under the rule of the mullahs. Having the mullahs running the government has breed disrespect for both the government and the religion. The Taliban are widely despised in Afghanistan although still a force in the border regions of Pakistan where they never actually had political power beyond the purely local, and where they maintained the ability to claim it'd be better if they really ran things. Our American, religious right-wing achieved a lock on the Republican Party by delivering a block vote of some eight million Bible-thumper types, which allowed the Republicans to take back the Congress after 40 years of Democratic domination there, and also get the election for Bush by fairly slim majorities. As a result, Bush is more unpopular than any recent President at this point in his second term, and, more significantly, the Republican dominated Congress is suffering even worse approval ratings than he is. They've achieved in 10 years of dominance, a level of contempt that it took the Democrats 40 years of dominance to achieve.
And, conservative Republicans not among the Bible-thumper wing are now trying to figure out how to put the Bible-thumpers back in the wings, without losing the elections those eight million block votes were allowing them to win by fairly slim margins.
So, we might hope that the next elections will bring about a government a little more "liberal" than what we seem to have in front of us now. Ideologues usually discredit themselves as soon as they have temporal power in their hands.
Hell, I still think this election is a good thing. Just not all good; there are setbacks and things we don't like.
Beats the hell out of the prior status quo though. We can still have hope for progress.
It is always sad when a lunatic liberal hijacks the honorable memory of a great man like Gandhi and uses his principled legacy to promote both a radical socialistic doctrine, and nihilistic, self loathing, hatred of your countrymen, that translates into apologetic praise to tyrants and terrorists..
Pretty pathetic…
This so called 'Gandhi,'is a truly dispicable man..
"So, we might hope that the next elections will bring about a government a little more "liberal" than what we seem to have in front of us now."
I meant the next Iraqi elections, in case that wasn't clear.
"Mohammed, I'm not sure I understand your post. If I interpret it correctly, you're saying that a deal enabled the Kurds to get 51% of the vote in the Kirkuk area, and the UIA to get over 50% of the vote in Baghdad. But what does that all mean in the legislature as a whole? Will the UIA have a majority in the new parliament?"
RonF
My guess is that the worry is that the Kurds will want independence from the rest of Iraq. So the "legislature as a whole" isn't the issue.
I think it's really a fear which has some merit, but it's been the problem since the beginning. I think Instapundit nails it with:
Reader Michael McFatter thinks: ".....
What distinguishes real liberal democracies from psuedo-democracies is that when a crisis has arisen, like now, leaders seek a resolution which involves compromise on both sides within the rule of law. We have yet to see what Iraqis will do, but this was always going to be the riskiest part of the plan. Will they truly reject quasi-fascist tribalism for peace and prosperity or will the region persist in the road to self-destruction. It's always been in their hands. Our invasion and assistance has only made the choice explicit and more immediate."
So it really gets back to the question can democracy work in Iraq. Can Iraq be the Model?
No one said this was a certainty- and it could said that it requires some degree of "faith".
Why can't everyone in Iraq just get along? WHY!??!?!!??!???!???!?!?!??!?!
IraqPundit says don't panic yet. This guy has some interesting thoughts.
http://iraqpundit.blogspot.com/
"Mahatma Gandhi's letters to Hitler"
http://
koenraadelst.bharatvani.o...ndhihitler.html
truth - "Enough robbery and thefts !
We had more than enough !"
Sooner or later 'truth', the Kurds will have to form alliances for self defense. You may be skeptical at this time about the Iraqi Shia, but they will eventually separate themselves from the Iranians. Because the Shia have majority in Iraq, you will HAVE to deal with them. It's enevitable. I think the USA has made it very clear that we support Kurdish autonomy but the USA will not undertake the role of Kurdish protector. The Baathists are proven enemies, the new Shia Iraqi government is yet to be tested. You should be cordial for now.
I think you meant 'reversing' the Arabization policy of Saddam not 'revising' it.
"Various historians and commentators have criticized Gandhi for his attitudes regarding Hitler and Nazism, including statements to the effect that the Jews would win God's love if they willingly went to their deaths as martyrs. [3] [4]
Penn and Teller, in an episode of their Showtime program B.S. ("Holier than Thou"), attacked Gandhi for, inter alia, hypocrisy for perceived inconsistent stands on nonviolence, alleged inappropriate behavior with women and apparent racist statements against Africans.
On addressing a public meeting in Bombay on September 26, 1896 (Collected Works Volume II, page 74) following his return from South Africa, Gandhi said:
"Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.""
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
BTW 'truth' the USA will not support the Kurds in an Arab vs. Kurd fight unless the Kurds have made every effort to promote cooperation. If Kurds pick a fight with the Arabs, they're on their own.
The USA has made every effort to act as mediator between the Kurds and Arabs. Just as the USA has made every effort to mediate the brawl between India and Pakistan. A lasting peace in the region is in US interests. The USA has oil deals to make in the region and oil is flamable.
Saddam was nuts. There was no way the USA could have developed a long term economic relationship with him.
NYC ITM update:
We now have 3 people and we will meet in January for
a snapple and a knish on the corner of 156th St + Broadway. Wear warm clothing and kevlar!
Thanks Caeneus, I come to ITM, to get a good laugh.
oh nooooooooooooooo...
the blue,the blue....
hurts the eyes
sooooooooo my combat
and just for yucks blueman,
i am leaving u a sack of coal
down your chimmney
why?????
cause u go against these fine
brothers and tell moveon
and michael ass moore they will
get a ton of black coal too
negative people do not sit
well on my list!!!!!!
and to the fine mounties of
canada u get gold after
just sending new orleans 5,000
hand made dolls!!!!could not
have done better myself
I can't believe the evil BushHitler would do such a thing.
Don't you think Caeneus, aka Bushlied.
Commenter Mark over at Iraqi Bloggers Central has taken a detailed look at the numbers from the December 15 vote.
I totaled up the votes of top 10 parties from each of the governates. Here are the nationwide totals (so far):
555 - (Shia) UIA 46.4 pct
730 - Kurdistan Gathering 21.8 pct
618 - (Sunni) Iraqi Front 14.7 pct
731 - Iraqi National List 8.6 pct
667 - National Front 4.1 pct
561 - Islamic U of Kurdistan 1.4 pct
631 - Progressives 1.3 pct
516 - Liberation Gathering 1.0 pct
630 - Turkuman Front 0.7 pct
Let's start from the premise that 60 pct of the Iraqi voters in the December 15th elections were Shia. That would mean that (60 - 46.4) 13.6 pct of Iraqi voters were Shia voters who did not vote for List 555 (UIA). From this we could conclude that about one in five (22.7 pct) of the Shia voted against List 555.
Is that bad?
*
and Neon,that ? for Anon?
shhhhhhhhhh....
member, we are cia
Caeneus, is Bushlied.
Exadios? Peter?
Let's start from the premise that 60 pct of the Iraqi voters in the December 15th elections were Shia. That would mean that (60 - 46.4) 13.6 pct of Iraqi voters were Shia voters who did not vote for List 555 (UIA). From this we could conclude that about one in five (22.7 pct) of the Shia voted against List 555.
analysis, on a a pretty low level, isn t it?
there are plenty of small islamist parties, some Sadrists not the least among them!
ppl on this page predicted a win of the "secular" parties, a seculae PM.
looks like they had it wrong.
choose for yourself, wether you think that their wishes not fullfilled is good or bad signs.
Caeneus,
Have anything on Iraqi water, sanitation and medical supplies?
"Caeneus, is Bushlied.":
Or Robert Gerich. Actually its somebody working their way through Homer.
here there s article from a guy, with some underatnding of politics:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/def...2-12-
2005_pg3_5
Bush compares his goal in Iraq to the democratisation of Japan after World War II. But Japan was a conquered, ethnically homogeneous country with no insurgency, a large middle class, and previous experience of political openness. Even then, success took seven years. Bush should plan on a two-year window to give the Iraqi government a strong chance
Good god, Lee! yer off yer meds again. Did you stop to breath while typing all that?
Hey caeneus, thanks for all the hits!
CHA-CHING$$
Sod - You just don't get it do you? This is not about America, or which party would be in America's best interests.
Iraq is an independent, soveriegn nation. They get to pick their own leaders. France is not very friendly to US interests either, but they are a peaceful democracy, just as Iraq is on it's way to becoming. As long as they are not attacking their neighbors, OIF was successful.
Or Robert Gerich. Actually its somebody working their way through Homer.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 9:01 pm | #
You're so smart only you know what you are talking about.
Caeneus,
Lastly: anything on why all fuel has gone up 300% this winter?
Sod - You just don't get it do you? This is not about America, or which party would be in America's best interests.
i m rather glad about that "this has nothing to do with US interests" attidude.
so lets stop mentioning 9/11 while talking about Iraq, shall we?
-----------------
Iraq is an independent, soveriegn nation. They get to pick their own leaders. France is not very friendly to US interests either, but they are a peaceful democracy, just as Iraq is on it's way to becoming. As long as they are not attacking their neighbors, OIF was successful.
wrong. or at least another bar, set very low.
as long as there isn t any massive civil war in Iraq, ...
some ppl would realy place the bar very high:
if we mange to have less Iraqis killed in a year, than Saddam woul have...
SOMETHING TO PONDER, YONDER....
So Iraq gets itself a religiously motivated governance its first go around..... Hmmmmm.... Islamic extremism blowing up kids and crowds in protest of an Islamic government? Hmmmm.... Something tells me (apart from the Shia/Sunni thing) that this may curtail the acceptance of this sort of nonsense amongsts the general public--which (if you don't want to just kill a bunch of Arabs) would be a good thing...
The big trick (and this is the case with ALL nutjobber religious folk) is in getting the Sunnis and their ideations and the Shia with their ideations thinking along a unified Islamic line....
If there ever was a more complicatd place for G Jesus saved my liver Bush to try his hand at foreign policy..... I would like to see it.....
ahhh Neon,let me see whats
on my list for u??
trying to convince sod?naw....
sorry son,won't happen...
but i will do this
Anon, that is truly stupid..
Thanks santa.
Scott I thought you left in your Winnebago to build housing for the needy in nawlins. Was that a lie?
Scott from Oregon is ANON.
u bet Neon,me and the elfs do
what ever we can for the positve
people
live
love
laugh
Santa
Santa, do liberals celebrate Christmas?
gosh.... i need sooooooo
much help loading up all
my smiley's....can some of u
become elf's?
santa may need a bigger sleigh
working jib
Thanks for the correction .
The Iraqis have to live togather if they want to build Iraq of equals for all ...
The trouble Saddam revising the tribal mentality in Iraqi society during his oppresive rule (conduct,dress,solving disputes,shutting up the weak.....etc),beside that now we have the Islamists both Sunni and Shiaa trying to rob Iraqis of thier new born Democracy ....and their remedy contradict Democracy ..
The weakness of the secular voices in Iraq is not unified on all sides , and marred by too corrupt elements ,for too long keeping quite for the tribal judgments to take over the rule of law ,no wonder the Islamists jumping on the band wagon and taking every one for surprised ride !
The mistrust is too deep ...it will take time to fade away ...
Let us wait and see if the Islamists issue a fatwa forcing female to grow a beard and mustashe !
Santa, do liberals get coal for Christmas.
agent nice.....i can not speak
for them all
i hope christmas eve i can spread
some..
love
live and
laugh...
u know santa loves everybody
with a spirit
They have been very naughty..
Hmmmmm....So... Mr. Nice.... That is what you call "doing the best you can?" Hmmmm? THAT IS SO SAD!!!!!
For what it is worth.... The idea of Iraqis DISPUTING an election result and DEMANDING that corruption and cheating be EXPOSED is a good thing, and a step in the right direction....
they have to live with it...
my sleigh is getting full with
these
make note....a box of coals....
Agent Nice,
I wonder if you have any idea how you come across-- you sound so desperate for attention and I'm just cringing with embarrassment for you. I suspect strongly that you are a liberal trying to make Bush supporters look bad. Your inanity and lack of substance is giving you away. People that support present American policy do not have to resort to silliness, we can support policy with results.
Now wait, Mohammed!
Are you implying the votes from the Kurds were rigged!
Really?
I guess RCP, what ever you say, you're the expert.
"...you sound so desperate...":
Somebody had to say it. The same goes for santa as well.
link did not work
oooohhhhhhh....
so sad............
i guess
love
life
love
mean nothing to trolling
trolls.......
u just need some of these
for your loving heart..
:
So RCP, your strategy for conservative progress is to attack other conservatives? I’m sure that will work well. You’re a genius! We need your leadership, so then why don't you lead us silly liberal fools?
RCP or ghandi...If you don't like his posts don't read them, I for one like them.
Keep up the good work Agent Nice!
Agent Nice,
Sorry, but you don't sound like any conservative I know. All apologies if I'm wrong.
Yes we're all so one dimentional, have to be pegged into two little slots this side or that...
I'm undercover..
undercover from what??
LOVE
LIVE
LAUGH
too bad insane man did NOT
do that!!!!!!!!!!!!
agent nice - You just outed yourself.
I was getting ready to send out the new decoder rings like Omar asked me to do, but I am not sure I should send you yours.
I used to argue positions, but at the end of the day you drink with your advisory anyway.
‘ You were great today.’
‘Thanks, did you here me pull the race and the poverty card, I learned that one from Ted Kennedy.’
yo anon........
most of us are for peace and
freedom!!!!!!!!!!!
how could u put anybody through
an acid bath?
i'd rather do this..
HOPE
freedom
LOVE
It has come to my attention that some on these comment lists are calling my posts "spam". They are not. Each one is in someway relevant to the invasion and occupation of Iraq (bearing in mind that that various administration members have, on several occasions, linked the invasion to the so called "War on Terror").
Further: You should view my contributions as "preemptive posts"; and, that "everything has changed since 911".
hehehehehehehehee........
coals for the......non believers....
and yes Neon.....
Caeneus,that is really interesting!
Caeneus
by James Hunter
Caeneus was an invulnerable warrior of Thessaly; he took part in the Calydonian boar hunt and was killed in the battle between the Lapiths and Centaurs.
Originally, Caeneus was a beautiful maiden named Caenis. Poseidon raped her, and afterwards promised to grant her anything she wished; she wished to become a man, so that nothing like this could ever happen to her again. The god granted her wish, and in addition, made her/him invulnerable to all weapons.
So what's the deal? Are you an angry tranny?
Neon......decorder rings for
all..
the dips....who do no get
it!!!!!!!
love
live
laugh.......
This Caeneus Character, also posts under the name BushLied, he is a real nut, good for many laughs....
enjoy!
No Judgement....not all Gopers are born-agains. Go ahead--spill.
OK Caeneus, I mean princess.
u ALL BE nice!!!!!!!
life is too short....
Omar and Mohammed..... have
a new life.......to live,love'and laugh........
go against them????
not far for what they all went
though over there!!!!!!!
Agent Nice,
No offence but you are not the brightest bulb in the socket. Obviously, he/she is a proxy king/queen. He/she has managed to get around being banned.
Right on, Caeneus. What do you think about all the links you post? Everything you posted made me think...a lot.
Be well.
Oh no, another liberal trying to think - Santa, more smiley faces stat, please!
Wow, looks like either the usual liberal losers using different aliases or new ones just a goofy as the rest of the dhimicrats/libbies.
America's military, over 2 million Volunteers with Bush and the majority of the American people have conquered the Taliban in Afghanistan, something the Soviet Union during its Zenith could not do, and conquered Saddam, something that Iran could not do, in short order.
Our new friends within Iraq and the US are now wiping out any and all cock roach Islamic Radicals who show up to be killed, quick and fast.
This serves as a warning to the ME. For the governments, openly supporting Al Qaeda has dire consequences, for Al Qaeda, you are our wipping boy.
I don't think anyone should be surprised that the election turned out as it did.
We still don't have the final numbers, but it's logical that a major Shiia party would win the majority of the votes. I think the reason Allawi did so poorly is because he wanted to bring the Baathists back.
The Kurds are basically secular and will not give in to an overly religious Iraq. If anything, you might see more power being given to the various provinces to run things as they want (i.e. some parts of Iraq will be very, very strict while others will not) People will begin to vote with their feet.
I really don't see the Iranians taking over Sistanis people. I really don't.
We're just going to have to wait and see.
Global Warming would end if the liberals would cut down on spewing so much hot air.
hee hee
1 Kurdistan Alliance Prime Minister
2"Representatives of secular Shi'ite former prime minister Iyad Allawi and two major Sunni Arab groups, the Iraqi Accordance Front and the secular Iraqi Unified Front, along with other groupings, met on Wednesday to coordinate."
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/...k/ MAC160883.htm
3 UIA 40%
speaking of unexpected political messes...
Send the Rhinos packing in 2006!
http://
atlasshrugs2000.typepad.c...t_the_rino.html
True conservatives are not represented here. A great place to find a variety of viewpoints is Here
One more timeHere
Now the unbelievably primitive, cruel, and savage Shia barbarians will establish a nightmare theocracy to rule Iraq. The religious police will soon whip the populace into shape and the Iraqi sons of Allah will join the great jihad against the West.
Congratulations, infidel dogs. You have brought it on yourselves.
Some articles to our friends if you have the time to read it
Blair pays surprise visit to Iraq
Iraq's kurd keep options open
Iranians want booze
and some other articles
and you call it "IRAQ THE MODEL"!!!!
enjoy your model!!!
and you call it "Iraq the model"
enjoy your model until Hakim's drills find you
Looks like the UIA has about 43% of the total so far. (4.7M of 10.7M) They got 48% of the January vote,and this tally ain't done yet. UIA will get 100-115 seats imo. I'm not giving up on Allawi yet. 555 doesn't have the tightest seams. Candidates can be peeled away. If Allawi can pick off a dozen,the Kurds will join him in a heartbeat,and the Sunni's will follow.
The best news out of these elections is that the fat little toad Chalabi didn't even win a seat. Not a one,LOL.
Religious right powerful in the U.S.? When was the last time the state told you to worship, and told you how?
They just tried to sneak in their 'instruction' in the guise of science in the Dover courtcase. Trying to take on Darwin in the courtroom actualy. Their objective was to get the state to teach future generations that God was a proven scientific fact. Luckily the judge, a republican, gave them a jolly good flogging.
I think it is ironic that you have a faith based presidency in the US trying to establish a secular government in Iraq.
Anyway ... to all the regulars, I hate to say it ... but I told you so. On top of that The Pentagon has unwittingly created a Shi'ite Crescent stretching from Iran, Iraq, Syria and ending in Lebanon. A fundamentalist one at that. And they all have two enemies in common. Nice one for the geopolitic geniuses. You are not getting out of this war for 20 years unless you leave now and hope the Shi'ite Crescent is a benign one - which it could be if America does leave now. (If only so your president doesn't have to spy on you anymore ... can you imaginne how unleasant is must be for the spies. Eugh)
So Wadard,
It would have been better to keep the religious Shia under the thumb of Saddam because Saddam was secular and somehow in your mind, less of a threat?
Your reasoning doesn't carry through.
So then, he wadard it up and threw this one into the swirling water - "I think it is ironic that you have a faith based presidency in the US trying to establish a secular government in Iraq."
Well, tie me Kangaroo down mate! Cuz Wadard's hangin out in the shed!
How is it that you understand so little about Republicans Wadard, and yet you pretend so much?
Have a merry nothing Wadard.
How is it McCain didn't make the Rino list?
Well, Well, Well....
And you are surprised...why exactly?
Fact is Omar, Iraqis, and Arabs in general, are sheep.
Yes Sheep. Its a fact. They do not stand up for themselves against their own rulers - we even see this on the family level of things - though shall not question thy elder. It is this type of BS that leads to backwardness and stagnation. Ideas that are 1400 years old are just as valid today as they were 1400 years ago.
That's a nasty little take that smacks of superiority. I just wonder, did you support the invasion in the first place Allah's Cousin?
You are wrong by the way - the Shi'ite did revolt against Saddam in '91 when the US had told them to and that they would jump in and fight. Troubles is they watched instead of fighting and this just served to consolidate Saddam's power for the next 10 years.
So Wadard,
It would have been better to keep the religious Shia under the thumb of Saddam because Saddam was secular and somehow in your mind, less of a threat?
Your reasoning doesn't carry through.
TaSS New York, USA
Honey .... I don't know what planet you are on ... but Saddam wasn't a threat to you ... surely you realise that by now was just spin and justifcation to go to war?
hey blue meanie!!!!
wake up to this
MERRY CHRISTMAS TOO
:
but i doubt u and satan
enjoy these days,must be
lonely...maybe put these
on your face
Have a merry nothing Wadard.
working jib
Enjoy your Giftmas. In extending my seasonal goodwill to you I offer this observation - using you rudder will get you out of irons, flapping jib. Pass that tip onto your president as well
hey Omar!
INSANE MAN "not" a threat?
Bulgaria and Ukraine are leaving Iraq.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2...12-21-
voa84.cfm
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman says countries join and leave the coalition for a variety of reasons, and he says there are other ways some members contribute besides having troops on the ground.
shitty job, isn t it?
simple question: WHO JOINED????
BTW the "brothers" are not now living in Iraq and have not been living there for some time. I will leave you to guess in which country they are now living.
Anonymous
Hmmm - but they were there to take photos of the streets on the day of the election. So it is likely you are wrong.
"Saddam wasn't a threat to you"
- Wadard
USS Stark - 37 dead
near miss on an ex pres
(forget about it, Wadard says so )
"using you rudder will get you out of irons" - Wadard
clever, using you brain could help u too
Hey Wadard, put 182,000 dead Kurds in your basement and see if it doesn't make a difference in your life.
Off topic - but way cool.
Pilots say new U.S. stealth fighter has no equal
"The F-15 pilots, they are the world's best pilots," said Lt. Col. David Krumm, an F-22A instructor pilot. "When you take them flying against anyone else in the world, they are going to wipe the floor with them. It's a startling moment for them to come down here and get waylaid."
"Bulgaria and Ukraine are leaving Iraq."
Yep, they've trained up the ISF to take control of their area of responsibility, now they are going home. I seem to remember someone blathering on endlessly about "As Iraqi security forces stand up, coalition forces will stand down"
8th Iraqi division certified for combat
Lee C. Good posts. Generally and historically Democracies drift socially left. What we have with the resurgence of the American right is abnormal but perfectly explainable. There is a backlash in America where the majority is moderate. This is because the Democrats have gone tooo far left to fast. You would have the same problems in Iraq if a purely secular government was in charge. People would argue that Saddam was secular. If we are intellectually honest we know that Saddam was a dictator and there was no Democracy. Just like we know that Iran is NOT a Democracy either. Voting alone does not make a country a democracy. Now, so long as the world has the same level of involvement in Iraq and the ability to monitor elections Democracy will hopefully continue in Iraq. I cannot deny that it is a fragile thing right now and people are right to be concerned. I would respond that we need to positively encourage rather than submerge ourselves and the Iraqis in a blanket of negativity. I am very interested in what the outcome will be in the next congressional elections in America. This will be a fair barometer of where the people are. I predict the Republicans will lose 3-4 seats. Some might take that as a sign of disaproval of current American world affairs but when it strongly disagree. You elect your local representatives based on local affairs. Frankly I, like most Americans am disgusted with all of our politicians. We are at war and why they cannot work together is beyond me. Regardless of the party they are all the same. They live the same and want the same power. Their party lines are bullshit. They are the same animal. I think we should cut all congressional and senatorial pay in half and not allow any donations from companies, unions, or interest groups to politics. I think this would go a long way toward fixing American politics though many strongly disagree with me for good reasons.
Anyway..we all can be wrong..why just look at your assumptions of my being female.
Neonknight,
SWEEEEEET
Wadard, Ash, Sod, all these flunkies from outside the U.S., are exact replicas of the liberals in the U.S.. A sordid spineless group.
Why?
Even while Muslim gangs are burning their cars outside the rooms where these cowards are cowering behind keyboards, on the internet bashing people far, far braver than them on blogs such as ITM, even while Muslim gangs are brutally gang raping their women on the beaches, these cowards hide in their rooms bashing people who chase down these thugs.
No one, absolutely no one, even the terrorists would consider Wadard, Sod and Ash any more than 3 foot tall cowardly girly men.
After 9/11, and especially after the easy invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, America has been widely believed to dominate the world because of its unchallengeable military power. But this year's events in Iraq and Washington have shown this assessment to be simply wrong.
America's military power, at least in the hands of Mr Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, has turned out to be, as in Vietnam, a paper tiger. Yet America is more globally dominant than ever before. The explanation of this paradox lies in America's economic performance, which has been as spectacularly succesful and as skilfully managed this year as the military operations have been bungled. The US has again had the fastest-growing advanced economy in the world. And this 20-year winning streak is bound to continue as long as Europe entrusts its economic management to institutions even more incompetent than the Pentagon under Mr Rumsfeld.
In other words, the saying that "the business of America is business" has never been more true. More than ever before it is the success of the US economy, and the associated strength of its higher education system, rather than anything to do with armed might, that assures America's cultural dominance, even in such pathologicaly introverted societies as Iran, Saudi Arabia and China.
America owes its global hegemony to the "soft power" that European politicians boast about but are unable to harness, mainly because of Europes's incompetent economic management. Meanwhile, the "hard" military power beloved of braggart neoconservatives turns out to be largely an illusion - and one that America cannot sustain on its own. This paradox is, to me, the most intresting lesson of 2005.
AMAR = Dream World = Another Dead Ender
Well maybe the current government of Iraq needs to hold new elections if it is not seen as free and fair by some parties. Better to do it over than let a questionable election not free of fraud accustions stand.
Amar,
I think you have very good points, but you go to far in declaring U.S. military might a paper tiger. The U.S. is capable of applying military force against any country, or group of countries, in the world...but the U.S. politicians are, fortunately, hesitant to apply that.
I don't think I need to remind you that Vietnam was not a failure of military strength - the U.S. enemy was decimated and demoralized at the end of the Vietnam war - but a failure of political will: we were sick of prosecuting the war and went home. That is a different issue than being "able" to see things through.
Nevertheless, I think you make some very nice points. I particularly agree with your emphasis on business - the U.S. is not in its nature a war-making nation, nor a social engineer, but instead is an economic driver: our business is, indeed, business...not ideology (regardless of the Leftist assertion that somehow we are now a theocracy because we elected a Christian into the presidency)...not conquest (regardless, again, of the Leftist assertion that somehow we are Imperial for liberating Afghanistan and Iraq and leaving the governments in the hands of the people)...but business, business, business...drives our identity on the globe.
AMAR - There is no Allah.
Sounds like someone has been at the happy weed!
SD well said, good to see you!
AMAR - Good post!
While I agree with much of what you say, I would like to add something to it. While OIF has shown some weaknesses and vulnerabilities in American military power, it has also demonstrated that the US military is still the most capable on the planet. No other nation could send their forces half way around the globe and defeat an army the size of the one the Americans faced in Iraq.
...and to be honest, if America wished, it could have simply destroyed Iraq and moved on. The vulnerabilities are only manifested in the rebuilding process.
neon thanks for the raptor article very cool
Bob - Awesome weapon! Air Superiority for another generation.
yeah baby!
"Meanwhile, the "hard" military power beloved of braggart neoconservatives turns out to be largely an illusion - and one that America cannot sustain on its own. This paradox is, to me, the most intresting lesson of 2005." AMAR
What a pathetic post.
Just another attempt to smuch up to what AMAR thinks are strong points while try ing to say America's military is useless, the one thing that keeps his Islamic fundamentalist buddies at bay.
It seems an illusory 'braggart neoconservative' US military actually did remove the Taliban from power and put Saddam in a dock for trial. Oh my, the imperial hegemony of it all.
Wadard said:
"Honey .... I don't know what planet you are on ... but Saddam wasn't a threat to you ... surely you realise that by now was just spin and justifcation to go to war?"
Sorry, I am a Republican, and I believe in what America stands for, so I can not so casually write off the suffering of others. I really don't care if Saddam was a threat to me personally....so long as he did what he did to 'the least of my brothers', he was a threat to the human race. I consider myself a member of the human race, and I will not stand by while my family members are tortured and killed. You may find this ok, so long as those being hurt are brown, or arab, or muslim; but I, and thank God my President, do not.
And, yes, I think we should do everything in our power to stop ALL of these a-holes around the world...and we are, under the present administration; through force, throguh diplomacy, through economic preassure, as best we can.
Waddard, you are they kind of guy who watched the Jews being carted away in 1940 and said "Well, it's not MY problem."
America's Military = "Paper Tiger"???
Conquer Afghanistan - DONE
Conquer Iraq = DONE
Install Governments that fight Terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq - DONE DONE
No brag - just fact.
"The vulnerabilities are only manifested in the rebuilding process."
Apparently, removal of oppressive regimes is insufficient. Responsibility for complete restructuring in now implied. That's an impressive addendum for those who otherwise would have done nothing.
Indeed Amar, let me compliment you on your aggravation.
Oh, I forgot to compliment you Amar on your sharp barbs (points).
Well working jib you don't think we have as a nation have a responsibilty to made Iraq a functioning state since we destroyed the saddam regime? That's the real problem about Iraq in a sense they have never really been a nationalistic nation. They are heading towards a secratarian divide slowly but surely.
And let me give you just one more compliment Anmar for your illusory recognition of the neocon taxcut that improved the US economy. As you implied, it was good management.
Tommy, Iraq has sufficient resources to rebuild itself. We are only obligated to assist in security. What kind of American taxpayer largess did you have in mind for Iraq?
LOL
Shhh...Yes American military might is a joke...shhhh pass the word.
I always love to be underestimated myself. I am for spreading these lies and you all should be it only helps us.
In a dangerous world, I don't see how it helps us to pretend that we are weak.
"Voted 202 to 122 in favour of the law today, which will increase video surveillance of railways stations, airports and other public areas, permit official snooping of internet and mobile telephone records, and lengthen the period of detention for terrorist suspects." Patriot Act hated by the libs????
No, a new law passed today by FRANCE.
AMAR- I assume you mean to say “successfully challenge” rather than “unchallengeable”. In any event, the only reason you and your ilk have the opportunity to make these claims is because the U S military does not employ excessive force in an occupational stance. Do you believe for one moment that, provided no constraints imposed by the political fools safely ensconced in their DC abodes, the US military could not have reduced North Vietnam to an ineffective entity within a few weeks? Political incompetence is your “paper tiger”. I do not like to brag about military prowess, but it is there. If you really wish to see the big picture, I offer this http://www.opinionjournal.com/ed...ml?
id=110007711
Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey
European hypocrisy.
Anguisel,
Yeah, I sort of like that too, unformtunately....
And here I have to address working jib as well
...NO ONE really believes that the US miliatry is weak. I mean, when a US Super Carrier Group sets to sea, it is the second most powerful military force on the planet (including the entire military of China), and we have TWELVE of them.
The only thing "weak" about the US military is the well meaning but misguided "peace at all costs" folk in the USA.
Of course, none of them have ever had a family member who's last sensation was the sound of jack boots kicking in the door.
However, the libs would use the military to kick in the doors of US citizens in Miami, Florida...
http://www.idcomm.com/personal/n...ton%
20elian.jpg
With poetic justice, the biggest loser of 2005 has turned out to be the previous year's most undeserving winner - Mr Bush. Largely because of the sheer astonishing incompetence of the US occupation of Iraq, confirmed by the even greater incompetence displayed after Hurricane Katrina, Mr Bush's incomprehensible popularity and mysterious power over American voters have vanished in a puff of smoke, like the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz.
Looks like democracy is truely at works.
Despite protests, Iraq parties discuss coalition
BAGHDAD, Dec 22 (Reuters) - Minority Sunni Arab and secular leaders pressed publicly on Thursday for Iraq's election to be rerun, but behind the scenes they were wrangling for shares in a likely coalition government with the triumphant Shi'ites.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/...k/
KAR256594.htm
AMAR - It is President Bush. Not Mr. Bush.
AMAR, another foreign anti-American who hides in his room bashing America while Muslim gangs are outside his room burning his car, and out on the beach raping his women.
AMAR = girly boy.
Ramsey Clark
He lied when he told the BBC that the Iraqi judge Rizgar.M.Amin (Saddam trial)is a relative of the Iraqi President Talabani as the fact contradict his statementcompletely as each one of them from two diffrent tribes(bachground) and two diffrent cities the distance between them over 200 km and each one of them speak in a kurdish dilect slightly diffrent ,and each one of them from two diffrent climate as one from mild ,plain terrain while the other from high mountain ,with sever cold and covered in snow in the winter !
Why does he claim they are relatives ? while he knows too well they are not .....or he has been listening attently to the thuggery mentality Saddamists which they lived and still live and will do so (if they survive )a life of a big lie !
AMAR...incompetence...incompetence...Wicked Witch of the West...OZ
"The meek shall inherit the earth." Clearly, we should kill the meek and bury them in the earth.
I, too, think that America's real power lies in its economy. The "paper tiger" remark, though, gave me a grin.
This country is not on anything remotely like a war footing. In fact, a substantial fraction of our politicians and ordinary citizens think that we are not at war, but are essentially dealing with a criminal justice problem. That is one reason why there is such acrimonious debate over this war on terror.
We have been at war in two different countries halfway around the world, and we, right now, retain the ability to open up another front, if we have to. The questions about recruiting and retention of people are all very forward-looking, with the possibility of fighting in another theater always under consideration.
As for weapons, we have weapons we don't want to use.
As for people, the military is not a career for most people. They serve a while, and then go on with their lives as civilians. But they are trained, and could be called up and quickly retrained, should the need arise.
Is the US a paper tiger? No, it is a drowsy dragon, and nobody really wants to see it fully roused, not even our feisty President.
After September 11, 2001, the President of the United States gave speech after speech aimed at calming our populace. Had he not done so, I suspect that we would have been far more deeply involved in military actions that we have so far.
Wadard:
[i]That's a nasty little take that smacks of superiority. I just wonder, did you support the invasion in the first place Allah's Cousin?[/i]
Uhh...superiority??.... I am Arab myself by the way - superiority of what?? Explain yourself.
[i]You are wrong by the way - the Shi'ite did revolt against Saddam in '91 when the US had told them to and that they would jump in and fight. Troubles is they watched instead of fighting and this just served to consolidate Saddam's power for the next 10 years[/i]
Well, yeah, that they did, and the US sold them out. Agreed, but thats not the point. This is the point: When was the last time they (any Arab populace) arised up, and made a fuss bigger than a fire cracker against a regime? Are you telling me they can only rise up with the US behind their back? I think you are. And that is a problem.
----------------
Speaking of which, being Arab myself, I know that our culture is very rich and proud. I think we have certain cultural values that far surpass their Western equivalents. But I also realise that there are some Western cultural traits that far surpass ours! Like policial culture - us Arabs simply BLOW at it, because we have no experience in GETTING ALONG - its always been the guy with the bigger gun and/or older age rules, regardless of the consequences of his policies. And THAT is the problem. THAT is the culture that it has given rise to. I know because I deal with my extended family all the time, and this is what they are like. No feedback, no suggestions, no questions. Absolute and TOTAL power. Period.
This is whats hapenning in Iraq - free elections simply make culture transparant - and what are we seeing?
200 mullah senators. Surprise Surprise.
An individual practices this, a family, a community...a culture. Our political culture is FUCKED, and I WILL do my part to fix it.
- Allah's Cousin
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
In a dangerous world, I don't see how it helps us to pretend that we are weak.
working jib
Because then the enemy, believing we are weak, makes mistakes.
When you are not strong then projecting strength becomes very important. Right now no military on earth can stand up to America, why flaunt it?
That makes no sense at all Anguisel. OBL thought we were weak and the mistake that he made killed 3000 and destroyed two buildings.
With poetic justice, the biggest loser of 2005 has turned out to be the previous year's most undeserving winner - Mr Bush. Largely because of the sheer astonishing incompetence of the US occupation of Iraq, confirmed by the even greater incompetence displayed after Hurricane Katrina, Mr Bush's incomprehensible popularity and mysterious power over American voters have vanished in a puff of smoke, like the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz.
AMAR
There is/was no incompetence in Iraq and the only incompetence during the hurricane was the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Luisiana.
The only thing President Bush is guilty of with the Hurricane is NOT overstepping his authority and taking control of the situation in Luisiana. Another damned if you do, damned if you dont issue. As for the war, I challenge you to show me any war where one side or the other did not make mistakes. Even the victors have historically made serious errors. It's war. War is never clean so stop being stupid. History will see Afghanistan and Iraq as incredibly brilliant military campaigns, perhaps only screwed up by politicians in the end. We shall see...
I'd recheck your vanishing puff of smoke theory as well since poll numbers are up up and away...:P
Allah's Cousin...
BRING BACK BABALON!!!
There was a time when the Middle East was THE PINNACLE of knowledge, politics, culture, art, business, etc. The political culture, although a monoarchy, was very progressive, open, and inclusive for the time period (and mouch more so than it is today), but those days did exist, and will again. Iraqis, and then the rest of the ME, simply need to open their hearts and believe in themselves enough to take critizim from EACHOTHER without it becoming an insult, and the whole place will BLOOM like a brand new Hanging Garden.
Honey .... I don't know what planet you are on ... but Saddam wasn't a threat to you ... surely you realise that by now was just spin and justifcation to go to war?
Wadard
Listen Sweetie,
First of all reread. I said Saddam was a threat, I didn't specify who he was a threat for, however, he brutalized his own people, he attacked two of his neighbors, he was a global sponsor of terrorism. The US was involved in a previous action against Iraq in the first Gulf War and we still continued to patrol the no-fly zone above Kurdistan which brought us into daily conflict with the Iraqi military.
We don't know what Saddam would have been capable of in the future because the point is now mute.
Saddam was a murderous tyrant and he, himself, was the biggest weapon of mass destruction.
Michael, I'm not sure the upper echelons of the "peace at all costs" folk are all that well-meaning...
I,
Good point.
Bush's Abuse of Power Deserves Impeachment.
Bush's Gift to America - Endless War.
Russia to take Syria's side if conflict with U.S. arises - Russian MPs.
A Short History of Radio Free Iraq.
Iraq Election Spells Total Defeat for US.
US Image Problem Rooted in History, Not Media.
Cherry-Picking History in Iraq.
Nixon's Views on Presidential Power.
Officials Fault Case Bush Cited.
Religious parties deal blow to US hopes for Iraq.
RJ Eskow: Voting Confirms: Iraq Is a Red State.
U.S. air power strikes Iraq targets daily.
Behind the Steel Curtain: The Real Face of the Occupation.
Caeneus,
I wonder if you would get more out of just letting people know you have new links and posting them on your website.
So 9/11 Means it's OK to Spy on Americans?.
Did Israel Lead the US into the War on Iraq?
...or putting all of your links in one post.
"Should America Support Islamists?"
Jeez, what a question! At first thought it sounds absurd to even pose it. On the other hand, the answer is neither simple nor academic, given the likely makeup of the new Iraqi government.
In very short order, the US and other well-wishing Western democracies will have to come up with a moral and practical framework for interacting with an Iraq with a broadly Islamist government. Likewise, if the momentum toward greater democracy in Egypt continues, another Islamist non-enemy government may well arise in the next few years. In fact, it might be only realistic to assume that greater democracy in ANY Middle Eastern country may have a strong Islamist component.... We were expecting, like, Buddhists?
For this reason, I'm mentioning an article I recently came across that consists of a debate between several heavy-hitting commentators on Middle Eastern politics, on this very subject. In my opinion, it makes excellent reading... lots of points to ponder, scored from both sides.
In the Iraqi context, this is a question Mohammed and Omar are bound to tackle in the near future.
The debate can be accessed via a link on the homepage of frontpagemag.com.
Best wishes for happiness in the Christmas season to everyone...
Student Claims Homeland Security Has Book Watch List.
Rift over civil liberties puts US bill at risk.
Congress Bans Harsh Treatment of Suspects.
Spying, the Constitution - and the 'I-word'.
The People Speak: Impeach Bush Now!
Sunni Arabs Launch Political Campaign to Kick US Out.
Iran's victory revealed in Iraq election.
Various private armies still exist, threatening Iraq's national security.
Israel's special forces at the "highest stage of readiness".
Washington seeks partial truce with Iraqi insurgents.
Officials Fault Case Bush Cited.
Bruce Schneier: Unchecked presidential power.
Tug of war over presidential powers.
Judges on Surveillance Court To Be Briefed on Spy Program.
Iraq Election Results Will Pose New Challenges for U.S. Policy.
Judge's resignation adds to spying furor.
Hadley downplays Iraq early returns.
Sunni leaders dismiss election results, fueling fears about civil war.
Despite election, Iraq to remain hot issue for Bush.
File the Bin Laden Phone Leak Under 'Urban Myths'.
UMass Dartmouth Investigates Report of Snooping on Student.
The charm offensive is not charming but it is definitely offensive.
Caeneus:
And under the totem poles-the ancient terror
Between the enormous fluted lonic coloums
There seeps from heavily jowled or hawk-like foreign faces
The guttural sorrow of the refugees.
If we apply the same standards people are using in judging Iraq war/re-construction, then Japan, Germany, Korea etc. will also become examples of US failures and presidential incompetence.
If there is an issue that needs to be dabated, that is the impotency and utter immorality of the so called international community in dealing with despots who oppress most helpless people, not Bush's competency.
People should be ashamed of their own secret desires rooting for causes that harm common people in Iraq.
Allah's Cousin... thanks for a really thoughtful post. I have a friend with an Iraqi father and an English mother, who despite having made a cultural commitment a long time ago still has deep unresolved issues that won't go away. I think you'd have to be in a similar situation to completely understand. You've got a unique perspective... maybe you should have your own blog?
Caeneus, folks are trying to be polite, perhaps more polite than you deserve. I'd venture that all of us can scan the Internet for topical opinion all by ourselves, without your pre-filtering. Are you a Controlling Personality, or what? Pre-filtering is for the MSM, not bloggers. You're wasting your time, and ours. Instead of playing copy-and-paste, just take a stand, mate. What do YOU think?
This may sound perverse since conventional wisdom insists that life is moving faster than ever and that the world changed sensationally and irreversibly on September 11, 2001. But what has really happened since that awful day? Afghanistan and Iraq have been invaded and terrorists have claimed thousands of lives in Iraq, Indonesia, Palestine and other predominantly Islamic countries, but in the West there have only been two atrocities: in London and Madrid. Of course, even one atrocity is one too many, but remember that more than four years have elapsed since President Bush declared his War on Terror. And compare what has happened in four years since 9/11 with the period that followed America's previous declaration of war.
In the four years after 1941, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Western Europe and Asia were liberated, Hitler died in his bunker, the two most brutally efficient armies the world had ever seen were utterly defeated and the atom bomb was invented from scratch and dropped on Japan. In comparison with our parents' generation, we surely live in a remarkably stable and safe world, in which politics, society and even technology move at an almost glacial pace.
3870 terrorist attacks since 9/11 around the world...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
And a very disgracefull AMAR in deep, deep denial...
The mistery unfold
Thousands of kurds vote in Baghdad been torn and thrown away by both militia Sunni and Shiaa according to kurd tv....
The same happened in the southern part of Iraq as Saddam policy of Arabization shifting thousands of kurds to the hot unfamiliar part with ...
The kurds not only been robbed of their votes in kirkuk over 30 000,sulaimaniya 15 000,Erbil over 8 000 ,but the entire Baghdad area and the southern part of Iraq(only showed a bout 9 000) ...
Nice a start for equal , Democratic Iraq with such a holly thieves around who needs a believer any more !
The kurdish bloc since yesterday talking in Baghdad about these violations ...
I have my doubt wether will get to any conclusion as usual end up with a filthy kiss accompanied by promise as usual the name of Allah,Ali, Omar (sorry mate Ido n't mean you ,but our holly gohst one in his name/s they committ all..)
An Iraqi proverb ... wa adat Haleema ila adataha il qadeema ....a whore will remain a whore ....here again I do n't agree with this proverb as many hookers reformed i.e Linda loveles ,but our Iraqi Haleema has a slim chance to change ....You never know with a good thrash even our Haleema might change !
This is very horrible news. Unlike under Saddam, you have a constitution that protects your rights. It is imperitive that you and your allies work very hard, on a grassroots level to spread your message of equal rights for all men and women, and individual freedom to speak, write, read and pray as you wish.
The hope is that in 4 years, your message will have reached millions of Iraqis, and the vote will reflect that.
Work harder... never give up.
cowanus please go away
no don't tell him to go away, just scroll, as he's nice enough to pay for every link his robot tells him to.
Cha-Ching$$
paper tiger...
the only good thing I read in this string was lee c. well, i didnt read it, I got to scroll it and it was such a big scroll that I had to light some matches and leave the fan on for a while longer than usual.
arguing with liberals is like talking to drink college students, they have already made up their "minds" but keep arguing to make it seem like they were open minded at somepoint.
newflash: America IS the world, America IS ONLY GREAT because nohwere else in the world has made it easier to get free and rich than in the US. PERIOD.
Think up all your stupidass leftist imperialism arguments you can but its just so effing obvious. Go to New Yawk and see all the billionaire foriegners that would rather be protected by the NYPD than there own armies.
FREEDOM
FREEDOM FREEDOM
you effing jealous morons would rather sit there and find the slightest thing wrong with the states insteadof getting off your ass and doing just one littel thing for your kids' futures by reforming your backward ass countries. Annan leeches millons of starving children and all you can talk about is Bush this Bush that.
There is a hell and youre heading into it...
we tried.
AMAR wrote:
----
After 9/11, and especially after the easy invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, America has been widely believed to dominate the world because of its unchallengeable military power. But this year's events in Iraq and Washington have shown this assessment to be simply wrong.
America's military power, at least in the hands of Mr Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, has turned out to be, as in Vietnam, a paper tiger.
----
If we were able to somehow "turn off" the media, and forgo civilian casualties... NO COUNTRY ON EARTH COULD TOUCH THE MIGHT OF THE U.S. MILITARY.
The USA is held to a higher standard of conduct in war than any other nation on Earth.
We can't even put panties on a prisoner's head without the world erupting into an uproar!
Iraq is no longer a military battle. It's a battle for security and forward progress in the democratic political process.
History will tell us how well we did.
...
That's right Soldier's cousin. It's not over until the (fill in the blank) sings.
P2:
Well said! AND many more should say it again and again, until, as in Joe Stalin's time, it is known as the truth.
pissed that Johnny Damon now a Yankee?
Still shopping?
Lost yer job?
worried about Saddam or puke ladin?
It's Christmas for Pete's sakes!
Sing along with Rudolph!!!
ome things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...
If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.
And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...
For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.
So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath
Life's a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the right side of life...
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the bright side of life...
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life...
(I mean - what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life...
Eric Idle
Where's the A-TEAM?
Yeah,America has the top military,economy,and culture in today's world....for several reasons.
1. Every country,ethnic group,and religion is represented in the U.S.. We are the world...
2. Energy unleashed. We do it better. Americans are perfectionists. Always building a better mousetrap. And,the government can usually be kept out of the way long enough for the mousetrap to hit the market.
3. Resources. God blessed America with abundance of every kind. We don't have enough oil,but only because our economy is 10X the size of any other.
Yeah,America is dominant...and will stay that way for centuries to come. Europe can't duplicate what we have. Neither can China,Japan,or anyone else. We ARE the world....well,a damn nice slice of it anyway.
Gawd! after that, I'd settle for the c team.
Norway struck oil with its first well in Kurdistan. Estimates of 100M barrels in the field. About $6B at today's prices. Iraq will replace S/A as the world's leading producer some day.....if they can keep the damn Saudi's from blowing everyone up.
Where's Mr T?
Nice move
Iraqi President J.Talabani in a talk with the British F.minister J.Strew said that we do n't have a problem for any International body to come over and have a look at the complaints and do any recomendation !
Rumsfeld sudden appearance in Baghdad to visit the US troop and to pull the looser's ears to accept the result of the election ....it will change by the end of day ,but not drasticaly !
Maury
Nice one !
This field found recently ...the second one in a short period for the last a few months ..drilling commencing ...
Let us hope that wealth in part go in building the infrastructures as in a bad shape in desperate need for transformation ,after 80 years !
Truth-I enjoy your posts. Read you at Sam's blog. Hope you stick aound ITM.
Howdy all you Americans! Announcement:
My brother will be singing tomorrow in Times Square, NYC, on ABC TV...Good Morning America...from 6-9 AM whenever they go to break. He will be singing Christmas carols with the St Patrick's Cathedral choir.
He is the tall dude in the back row.
His family nickname is Father Christmas.
I heard them sing last week and they are freakin terrific. They sound like angels. Check it out if you can.
Nuke the whales
Neocons out of Iraq (and the US)!
Grab your coat and get your hat.
Leave your worry on the doorstep.
Just direct your feet
To the sunny side of the street.
Can't you hear a pitter-pat?
And that happy tune is your step.
Life can be so sweet
On the sunny side of the street.
I used to walk in the shade
With those blues on parade,
But now I'm not afraid.
This rover crossed over.
If I never have a cent,
I'll be rich as Rockefeller.
Gonna set my feet
On the sunny side of the street.
Grab your coat and get your hat.
Leave your worry on the doorstep.
Just direct your feet
To the sunny side of the street.
Can't you hear a pitter-pat?
And that happy tune is your step.
Live can be so sweet
On the sunny side of the street.
I used to walk in the shade
With those blues on parade,
But now I'm not afraid.
This rover crossed over.
If I never have a cent,
I'll be rich as Rockefeller
With gold dust at my feet
On the sunny side of the street.
"chicken" anonymous, squawks again.
Why did the chicken "anonymous" cross the road? Because anonymous was running from jihadis.
Is the Land of Democracy, Whisky, and Sexy becoming the Islamic Republic of Iraq?
http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot....to-
islamic.html
The Best Political Analyst in the Iraqi and Kurdish Blogosphere is Nibras Kazini who cites Five Major Factors in the Iranian-inspired Islamist remaking of Iraq to the "The Islamic Republic of Iraq."
1-Sistani’s Edict: This was the doing of Muhammad Ridha Sistani, the Grand Ayatollah’s son, and it was first reported here at Talisman Gate on November 27. Through mosque sermons and catchy jingles, the Shia faithful got the message that voting against ‘Haydar’s Candle’ would anger Imam Ali. [‘Haydar’s Candle’: Haydar is an alternate name for Imam Ali, and the ballot symbol of the UIA list no. 555 was a candle, the same as the January election.]
I never did trust Lady Bird's favorite "Ayatollah Scarecrow" Sistani, always with that nudge, nudge, wink wink, speaking out at just the right time to sway favor - I'm sure his son acted completely independently of his father's wishes.
2-Undeclared Civil War: Shia-Sunni tensions are at historical highs, and Shia voters still feel vulnerable and insecure as to their political future, so they voted UIA to spite the Sunnis who have been waging a low-level campaign of extermination against Shias in mixed areas. Seemingly, the Sunni leadership such as the likes of Saleh Al-Mutlag, who is particularly hated among the Shia, keep pointing the finger at SCIRI’s Badr Brigade for any retaliatory actions targeting the Sunni population, and the communal antipathy is so acute that the Shias would band together with Abdel-Aziz Al-Hakim just to piss off the Sunnis. Iraqi Shias were unconcerned with deteriorating basic services under Jaafari as they headed to the polls; they could live with little electricity and water, but they can’t go on looking over their shoulders for a suicide bomber whenever they do grocery shopping.
Leave the whales alone cowboy.
I'm going to miss your brother's performance tomorrow. :-(
The evil corporation requires my attention in it's plot for global domination.
Lucky for us all though, the transit strike is over! Yippee!
I agree with you Truth. I think the wealth should go to the infrastructure.
There is so much you can do in terms of roads, water projects, sewers, medical advances, hospitals, just generally improve the lives of Iraqis.
But Maury, Norway was drilling? I thought the United States was after the oil?
And how is the State of Journalism in Iraq these days?
http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot....erty-
iraqi.html
I did an In T View with Baghdad-based Reporter and Blogger 24 Steps To Liberty and he had some very interesting things to say:
MG: Can Islam and Democracy Coexist? Because as Dennis Prager notes via a Freedom House study on Democracy:
Of the world's 47 Muslim countries, only Mali is free. Sixty percent are not free, and 38% are partly free. Muslim-majority states account for a majority of the world's "not free" states. And of the 10 "worst of the worst," seven are Islamic states. So, what exactly is the problem between Islam and Democracy?
24 Steps: Islam cannot work parallel with democracy. That's just impossible. But that doesn't mean Islam is a bad religion or includes bad ideologies. For many people, it works well by itself. But to combine it with democracy?? Never.
MG: Is there Government Censorship of the Media in Iraq?
24 Steps: Of course there is, but hidden. And they cannot prevent you from writing something, but they would target you through the irregular armed militias, which all belong to parties that dominate the government.
MG: Is there Religious Censhorship of the Iraqi Media? Can you or any of your fellow reporters write an article critical of Islam?
24 Steps: No, we are free to write, but again, it is the tradition. You would be also targeted just because you violated the rule of traditions.
MG: Are there some reporters in Iraq who are Gore Junkies? People attracted to the Death, Destruction, and Misery?
24 Steps: I haven't hear this before.
Why did the chicken "anonymous" cross the road?
RG
GeorgeBush's Answer: We don't really care why the chicken crossed the road. We just want to know if the chicken is on our side of the road or not. The chicken is either with us or it is against us. There is no middle ground here.
Al Gore's Answer: I invented the chicken. I invented the road. Therefore, the chicken crossing the road represented the application of these two different functions of government in a new, reinvented way designed to bring greater services to the American people.
Bill Clinton's Answer: I did not cross the road with THAT chicken. What do you mean by chicken? Could you define chicken, please?
Saddam Hussein's Answer: This was an unprovoked act of rebellion and we were quite justified in dropping 50 tons of nerve gas on it.
Why did the chicken "anonymous" cross the road? Because anonymous was running from jihadis.
Mirror, mirror on the wall whose the bravest of them all?--saith RG
(RG,the wannabe suck-up crusader)
Very funny TaSS! LOL
If we were able to somehow "turn off" the media, and forgo civilian casualties... NO COUNTRY ON EARTH COULD TOUCH THE MIGHT OF THE U.S. MILITARY.
if the terrorists had only 10 nukes inside the US, tat military might wouldn t mean anything.
--------------
The USA is held to a higher standard of conduct in war than any other nation on Earth.
pretty shocking: ppl are trying to hold you to the standards, that you re claiming to be enforcing.
----------------
We can't even put panties on a prisoner's head without the world erupting into an uproar!
high standards anyone?
----------------
Iraq is no longer a military battle. It's a battle for security and forward progress in the democratic political process.
not a military battle, but one for security? lol?
------------------
History will tell us how well we did.
look at Mohammed s analysis of the election results!
history just told you: THIS WAS BULLSHIT!
TaSS lol did you make the chicken stuff up? Pretty funny. Good news on the subway...those jerks! Strike now? fine..NYC just lost 90% of my shopping $ since I'm going to New England 2morrow. The nuke whales comment was for Leapy whos not even here..duh. Not fun or funny sorry. Her hubby says that. I love whales. Orcas are my fave.
Do you secretly work for the evil empire TaSS? Did YOU steal J. Damon from Red Sox nation?
The friggin Am. League east is over and it's still 05...
Truth is a smart dude.
RG is a middle linebacker. Don't even try to run up the middle with him in there.
Caeneus - at least Caeneus doesn't talk back. LOL
read and laugh:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/
...51220_3708.html
The ambassador said it's too early to talk "definitively" about the results of the Dec. 15 election, but it appeared "as if people preferred to vote their ethnic or sectarian identity.
did they? suprise suprise!
----------------
What is needed is to wait for the results, and then for the principal groups to seek to form a broad-based national unity government - a cross-ethnic government that will emphasize effectiveness and competence."
a broad, cross ethnic government, emphasizing effectiveness?
that s a good one!
Mirror, mirror on the wall whose the bravest of them all?--saith RG
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 6:21 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
The ones who do not run, "chicken" anonymous.
Flip flops loose every time. That is flop comes after flip.
Area 51
There's some funny ones on there but I think they forgot:
John Kerry- The chicken crossed the road before he decided to uncross the road.
Kayne West- because George Bush hates chickens!
Osama bin Laden- The chicken is an infidel and must die!
Socialists- obviously the chicken was acting as an agent for American imperialism and was trying to occupy the road for it's evil corporations.
Uncle Floyd's pig farm is short on slop. Let's drop Mr. Arab Pride, Saddam 'Who yer Daddy now?' Hussean on the farm from 30,000 feet.
Coat the tosser in honey, Heinz 57, + Mexican style bbq mix and Floyd's pink pigs will jump for joy.
Case Closed
Saddam Hussean, "Who is this dirty zionist dog who put me into shake n bake chicken bag?"
boo ya
Let's put saddam in a cage fight with a couple a drunken homeless guys from Brooklyn.
Tell the homeless guy we'll put him up at the Waldorf Astoria in the whiskey/porterhouse room for a year if he rips KIng Jihad's bleach black head off with an old Sally Army can opener.
Here is "chicken" anonymous trying to cross the road, unfortunately, did not make it, last act of bravery just before impact.
http://www.epica-awards.org/asse...0%
20Chicken.jpg
I kept the 'surrender chicken' RG. That one is great!
Iran
Will celebrate in two months time the birth of the first new cloned sheep in ME ...as usual the Ayatullah issued a Fatwa permitting cloning Animals ,but not Humans.......
The cloned Sheep will be more compasionate than the Ayatullah themselves...as the Holly norm dictate will be eaten only by them !
One tough police chief in Falluja...
http://onthescene.msnbc.com/
bagh...olic.html#posts
Ever try roasted Iranian mad mullah gravy over long grain rice?
I agree with you Allah's Cousin on the part about Arabs needing the political courage to speak up. Unfortunatly they have a tradition of shooting desenters in that part of the world.
Did Bush41 blunder when he encouraged Iraqi to remove Saddam? Well, he overstepped his authority if that implied American military support without the consent of Congress. Besides, we hadn't wasted 10 years on a fruitless containment policy yet.
The complaints from the noble defenders of dictators, Al-jazeera, is that the American removal of Saddam cost the lives of 30,000 innocent Iraqi.
In 1991, without the support of today's high tech weaponary that number would have been far higher. If Iraqi today barely see the benefit of their freedom as out weighing the cost of their lives, then imagine what their story would have been in 91.
According to another newspaper Kurds & Sunnis have agreed to divide Kirkuk in case of a civil war.
Now which rumour do you believe? Do you call this an analysis?
I call it pure lies!
Kurds are majority in Kirkuk! They got 60% of votes! It's no deal! It are facts.
Why is civil war mentioned as an option in Arab lands? Have they no real faith in democracy?
It is only supposed to be a war of ideas. Constant attempts at political assination in that part of the world is their shame.
johnny damon is a caveman mercenary, if youre looking for loyalty in a jock, he will probably have skates on..
boston, oakland,kansas city.
whatever.
this is it cowpoke. san antonio vs. detroit on sunday. HOT DAMN!!
Coming atcha now!!
NOTICE TO ALL REDUCTIONISTS AND STATIC MODELLERS:
IT WILL TAKE AT LEAST A GENERATION TO GET THE MIDDLE EASTERN MIND TO OPEN UP. WE DIDNT HELP THINGS BY PROPPING UP THE SHAH AND ALL THE OTHER ASSHOLES THAT HAVE KEPT THE ME'STERN EVERYMAN DOWN.
GET A CLUE PLEASE.
THEY KILLED ALL THE SMART ONES!!!
Can I get a little patience and hope in the back?
How many jews escaping egypt saw cana?
none.
besides, by then the aliens will have come back and tom cruise will rule us all anyway.
did you ever hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac chick?
she stayed up all night trying to figure out if there was a dog.
did you ever hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac chick?
she stayed up all night trying to figure out if there was a dog.
P2-my nigga! Mark Twain from Motown
ROFLMAO
Demonstration
In a few hours the Sunni Arab group will demonstrate in Baghdad they claim will call millions .....how about the security ...it is not a wise move leading your own people to the slaughter house !
As the Shiaa do with their frequent marches and bashing their heads with armed groups forcing all the shops on the way to close with no compensation to the lost earning as many little shops if they do n't earn that day the whole family suffer on top of the rest of the daily misery !
The demonstration will start after midday prayer from the Yarmook mosque ,and I should imagine will pass the central railway station ,then karkh,probably end up round the green zone or most likely in al-Tahreer square if the police allow it to cross the bridge ....
"America IS the world, America IS ONLY GREAT because nohwere else in the world has made it easier to get free and rich than in the US. PERIOD."
Playertutu--
Actually, dumbass who lives in the basement of momma's house.... Australia has a better standard of living, and, since they have a greater resource to population ratio, have an easier time accumulating wealth (for those who desire such....)
And Japan in the eighties was also the winner, though they let their bubble burst....
Anyway, you really should get out more. You are stupid, ignorant AND obnoxiously inept and you appear to be the only one who doesn't know it.... (Well, maybe Cowboy carbuncle isn't aware of it, either, but that is not saying much.....)
Mob rule - US Democrats believe in it too.
Bush and Wiretaps: Congress, Citizens, This Means War.
Note to Mr. Bush: The U.S. is Not a Monarchy.
Fear of the Devil: This Maze Leads to a Trap Without an Exit.
The Hidden State Steps Forward.
A New Phase of Bright Spinning Lies About Iraq.
Military Recruiters Have Eye on Students.
On Wiretapping, Bush Isn't Listening to the Constitution.
I guess lame duck bashing serves a political tenderizing function.
Bush Impeachment Not Out of the Question.
Well gollee, Scottie Boy came out of his 40 acre tree house to bless everyone with his zero personality and lack of wit!
The Real Story Behind Snoopgate.
Skepticism trails Bush's defense of domestic spying.
Experts Say Wiretap Fight May Taint Cases.
Specter Wants Jan. Surveillance Hearings.
u better watch out...u better
not cry...u better not pout..
cause i am telling u why....
santa clause is coming to town...
he see's when u are sleeping..
he know's when u are awake...
he know's when u have been bad
or good,so BE GOOD,for goodness
sake...
)
no matter what color u are..
santa knows who the good people
are....the ones that care...
the ones who want freedom....
for others in this world...
don't like the smiley's???
TUFF!!!!!!!!!!!
wishing u all happiness!!!!!
I Woke Up an Object of Suspicion.
Impeachment Talk at Georgetown Salon.
Iraqi opposition rejects election results.
the blue is getting really
old...
soooooooooooo
here we go again
and cowboy,good idea's about
INSANE MAN
Iraq rebels 'intensify violence'.
Iraqis Reject Increased Fuel Costs.
What is the purpose of an election in Iraq if the international community was not monitoring it to prove it to be legitimate. I can only wonder if this was an insidious plot to give every evil-doer in Iraq a chance to undermine the democratic process there.
well i can see the blue
negative meanie does not
believe.....
soooooooooooo sad....but
i will laugh..
hohohohohoho
Why is civil war mentioned as an option in Arab lands? Have they no real faith in democracy?
It is only supposed to be a war of ideas. Constant attempts at political assination in that part of the world is their shame.
welfare jip,
Don't blame the Iraqis for Bush's screwed up attempt to assimilate them. It was ill-conceived by the neocon ideologues. They can rule themselves without your instruction.
You and your buddies think you know what is going on but you keep on hooting away. Why don't you try for a 'blank slate'? Pull out, let things develop--there are probably a good many Iraqis who will miss the US. That's all Murtha said and he's a hundred times the man, Bush is.
Only 26 blue streaks from our intensely loyal opposition.
Slacker!
hoot.hoot.hoot.hoot.hoot
hohohohoho
:
Oh, is that why Murtha voted against an immediate pull out? Did 73 year old Murtha forget why he came to Congress that day? Had he meant to pull out before he didn't?
Yo scott anon bitch from meth lab-a-gon...fer a major malfunction with breath like a camel's ass...you sure do come up with some funny names
ROFL again
A DIFFERENT CHRISTMAS POEM
The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,
I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
My wife was asleep, her head on my chest;
My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,
Transforming the yard to a winter delight.
The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,
Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,
Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,
So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.
The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,
But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know,
Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,
And I crept to the door, just to see who was near.
Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,
A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,
Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,
Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.
"What are you doing?" I asked without fear,
"Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!
Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,
You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"
For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,
Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts,
To the window that danced with a warm fire's light.
Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,
I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."
"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,
That separates you from the darkest of times.
No one had to ask or beg or implore me,
I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December.
Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."
My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',
And now it is my turn and so, here I am.
I've not seen my own son in more than a while,
But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.
Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,
The red, white, and blue.. an American flag.
"I can live through the cold and the being alone,
Away from my family, my house and my home.
I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,
I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
I can carry the weight of killing another,
Or lay down my life with my sister and brother,
Who stand at the front against any and all,
To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."
"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,
Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
"But isn't there something I can do, at the least,
"Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?"
It seems all too little for all that you've done,
For being away from your wife and your son."
Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget,
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember that we fought and we bled,
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you, as you mattered to us.
WE ALL NEED TO PRAY FOR OUR MILITARY PERSONNEL EVERY NIGHT!
cheers ya'll! P2
P2 | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 1:19 pm | #
THE?
myths liberals are now trotting out.
1) after a war and years of being apart along with one being arab and the other persian,Iran is now going to just "take"iraq because someone read the shiite somewhere. duuuuuh..
2)because ALL muslims are extremists (in the liberal media on this point) ALL RELIGIOUS people are automatically evil. Even though they'll never admit their socialism is a religion..
3) try as they might, they can't stand to think that this war is about freedom and changing the ME from within. In the back of their heads its always about the oil.
just like they think its all about economic wealth other than the three other wealths:prestige, political or religious.
free societies demand faith in: your neighbors, the process, yourself. liberals haver only one faith. THE STATE.
P2 | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 1:30 pm |
I thought it was in?
caenus=anus
P2 | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 2:17 pm |
It was more than one person honey. The name Caesar was a title.
paper tiger...
the only good thing I read in this string was lee c. well, i didnt read it, I got to scroll it and it was such a big scroll that I had to light some matches and leave the fan on for a while longer than usual.
arguing with liberals is like talking to drink college students, they have already made up their "minds" but keep arguing to make it seem like they were open minded at somepoint.
newflash: America IS the world, America IS ONLY GREAT because nohwere else in the world has made it easier to get free and rich than in the US. PERIOD.
Think up all your stupidass leftist imperialism arguments you can but its just so effing obvious. Go to New Yawk and see all the billionaire foriegners that would rather be protected by the NYPD than there own armies.
FREEDOM
FREEDOM FREEDOM
you effing jealous morons would rather sit there and find the slightest thing wrong with the states insteadof getting off your ass and doing just one littel thing for your kids' futures by reforming your backward ass countries. Annan leeches millons of starving children and all you can talk about is Bush this Bush that.
There is a hell and youre heading into it...
we tried.
P2 | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 3:33 pm |
It's ok, but usually it's not dark in the afternoon unless you are in Alaska.
johnny damon is a caveman mercenary, if youre looking for loyalty in a jock, he will probably have skates on..
boston, oakland,kansas city.
whatever.
this is it cowpoke. san antonio vs. detroit on sunday. HOT DAMN!!
Coming atcha now!!
NOTICE TO ALL REDUCTIONISTS AND STATIC MODELLERS:
IT WILL TAKE AT LEAST A GENERATION TO GET THE MIDDLE EASTERN MIND TO OPEN UP. WE DIDNT HELP THINGS BY PROPPING UP THE SHAH AND ALL THE OTHER ASSHOLES THAT HAVE KEPT THE ME'STERN EVERYMAN DOWN.
GET A CLUE PLEASE.
THEY KILLED ALL THE SMART ONES!!!
Can I get a little patience and hope in the back?
How many jews escaping egypt saw cana?
none.
besides, by then the aliens will have come back and tom cruise will rule us all anyway.
did you ever hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac chick?
she stayed up all night trying to figure out if there was a dog.
P2 | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 7:54 pm |
I meant you're quite accurate there. I do not believe in conspiracies as such but I know there's a lot of things that humans are not aware of.
Apparently, working blip doesn't understand the difference between the word "immediate" and the word "measured"....
Is this how you think you should argue? Create a false premise, attribute it to someone or thing you dislike, then point out all the fallacious maladies with your false premise?
No wonder you think ol' Bushie boy is an Einstein without a cosmos....
Isn't there a bright light anywhere within the ITM comment boards anymore?
Cowboy-- your prose lacks originality and lustre.... You have become as hackneyed as a yellow smiley feces and as weak kneed as a dill weed.....
Oh, is that why Murtha voted against an immediate pull out? Did 73 year old Murtha forget why he came to Congress that day?..............
In a Jim Ignatowski voice.... HUNHH I ahh uhh vote? unnhh
ah never mind cowanus, he's like a French poodle, piddles all over the place when in front of others. Just can't control himself in his excitement of being able to finally make a link.
He's been trying to do this for over a year now, so he's very proud of himself, and hense we see his wet spots on the threads.
i guess moveon, is on the move
again...
well,i will be laoding up
the sleigh now,with more of
these
and the belly says
and the heart????
LOVE
LIVE
LAUGH
Oh, your heros are even more lame than you imagine Scotty. They can't even proffer their own words for a vote. Is that something you have chosen to overlook?
It must be a major disappointment to you Scotty to see such prevarication.
just for u mr negative
How sad that Democrats are so easily duped into formal endorsement of a policy they claim is foolish ... again and again.
Apparently, it is all to easy to fool a Democrat. It is even easier for them to fool themselves.
The comedy continues...
then 1 foggy Christmas night
they traded Johnny D
then they stopped the subway strike
and said all Zion Kings ride for free!
all of the other reindeer
used to laugh and call him names
but now he's rollin in a 64 Chevy 2nt
thank you santa
live laugh love
Honey .... I don't know what planet you are on ... but Saddam wasn't a threat to you ... surely you realise that by now was just spin and justifcation to go to war?
Wadard
Listen Sweetie,
First of all reread. I said Saddam was a threat, I didn't specify who he was a threat for, however, he brutalized his own people, he attacked two of his neighbors, he was a global sponsor of terrorism. The US was involved in a previous action against Iraq in the first Gulf War and we still continued to patrol the no-fly zone above Kurdistan which brought us into daily conflict with the Iraqi military.
We don't know what Saddam would have been capable of in the future because the point is now mute.
Saddam was a murderous tyrant and he, himself, was the biggest weapon of mass destruction.
TaSS New York, USA
You are rewriting history. The truth is that tue US supported Saddam in his war against Iran so to use that as a reason fro attacking him is to provide a reason for attacking the US. The US also attacked two neighbours - Mexico and more recently Noreiaga min the Panama Canal. Should the US be attacked? The US also commited crimes of torture and extra judicial imprisonment. Should they be attacked? The US also used naplam derivitives in their attack on Fallujah - chemical weapons. Should the US be attacked? Yes .... according to your criteria.
scotty the anon king-you are the very best friend the GOP ever had.
you should take over the eu cuz yer more trashy than they are.
keep defending terrorists scott
keep posting as anon
your Better than howard dean, Jack Chirac and BAGDAD Bob all rolled in EZ widers. ROFL at you not with you. my favorite retard
you've hijacked the ONCE honorable Democratic party.
your al kida of the left...your so anti-American yer on the OTHER side.
perfect for a UN brat...PERFECT
working jib.....
my aunite was a dem. forever.....
she voted for bush this past
election.....she is 80.....
she was sad how here party was
soooooooooooo hateful..she is also
a babtist.....
she now smiles to me
wondering....where her party went
to??????
cowboy....
keep the faith for these brothers
who want freedom
The present US regime endorses secret prisons, torture and spying on political opponents. Hmmm...that means the US NEEDS 'regime change'?!
The required UN resolution should be no problem if we can get Bolton to boycott the sessions!
Wad......
MERRY CHRISTMAS
:
Lack of US perfection is more than ample reason to surrender US foreign policy directives to Wadard-the-Magnificent-Generalissimo.
Why don't you just admit it Wadard? You want Americans to hold up little red books and immediately swear allegiance to the Wadard manifesto!
Ain’t gonna happen Wadard. We have an elected Congress that sets our agenda. So assemble your army Wadard and see if you can change our direction. I'll watch.
BTW, bombing a little discussion group won't make much of a difference. But, I guess you have to start the great Wadard revolution somewhere huh?
"Isn't there a bright light anywhere within the ITM comment boards anymore?"
Just be glad these loons line themselves up with the neo-cons and the American fundies. Don't want ‘em claiming to be on my side. I'd sure as hell hate to have to answer for that.
I WOULD AT LEAST STICK UP
BY YOUR SIDE IF WE GOT ATTACTED
AGAIN LEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
POLITICS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AS AN AMERICAN....A HUMAN BEING....
MERRY CHRISTMAS
DASH AWAY....
DASH AWAY...
AND ALL A GOOD NIGHT.....
Kirkuk is the center of northern oil development. The Kurds HAD to cut deals with the She¿at for Kirkuk. The Bathist-sunni-secularists only offered a continuation of their belligerent stupidity.
The She¿at-Kurd deal for Kirkuk was inevitable. The Kurds will get northern oil. The She¿at will get southern oil. The Bathist remnants will be managed, brutally if necessary. (Never poke the Eagle!).
The US tried to control Chalabi. It was clear that Chalabi was setting up an Iranian style She¿at political faction when he bargained to let Al-Sadr off the hook. The She¿at sheeple will get their religious daydream and Chalabi will get the power. I¿m afraid She¿at religious police will make Saudi Mutawah look like school boys.
A long religious-socialist daydream has begun. It will be paid for by oil. It will not succor individualism, capitalism or democracy. The Iraqi population will explode to unmanageable levels. And just like the Saudi, in fifty years when the oil drains away, Iraq will be in a world of hurt. Saddam and his merry band of morons may get their wish of self-destruction fulfilled afterall.
There is only one system on earth that works. That is democracy-capitalism under secular management. It requires a strong work ethic. We in the USA would be thrilled if the Iraqi people learned that. But, we cannot make that happen. Try to explain it to your fellow citizens Mohammad and Omar. Your country¿s future depends on it.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:11 pm |
Easy for you to say.
anonymouse - "This would not have happened if Bush had not stuck them in as his 'puppets'."
Oh no! Not another puppet detective!
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 4:41 pm |
Yes and a smarmily mushily patriotic one, at that.
moron99, the Kurds have no hope of reclaiming eastern Kurdistan. The Iranians will never give it up and defense of it is probably the real reason the Iranians are building a bomb.
The Kurds are mostly Sunni. They are not secular. But they seem to support secular government for now. That may change.
I don't think we'll see a secular Baghdad again in our lifetime. Nobody has the will to enforce that the way Saddam did. A religious Baghdad isn't the end of the world. The Turks won't like it. But, why should we care?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 4:53 pm |
You dammned knurft go knurfting, or else ...
Allah's Cousin "Isnt there an anti-sheep circuit?"
I think they discovered a 'God' gene. Maybe they should get tested?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 5:00 pm |
Yes. I will buy the book from Amazon. Still your book has not reached me.
The USA isn't a secular country and it hasn't slowed us down one bit. Russia and China are secular and they're a mess.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 5:11 pm |
I do not like the usa.
MERRY CHRiSTMAS!
Joy to the world
Pray for peace on Earth
Andrea, I think Wadard, Scott and Lee prefer a 'Merry Nothing'.
It's a status symbol greeting for the intolerent and unforgiving.
Apparantly bitterness is its own reward.
Some call it gridlock. Others call it checks and ballances.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 5:25 pm |
Yes, others than yours.
Our President is directly elected by the American people (partitioned and weighted in favor of the states by the Electoral College). POTUS has the power of veto. Why would an Iraqi Prime Minister, not elected by the Iraqi people, veto himself?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 5:29 pm |
Is he a good president?
When we went into Iraq, how could we have known that the Bathist Sunni would be THAT stupid?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 5:31 pm |
I dunno. There's a way about you.
Maury, that's an exageration. The USA certainly has some influence in the world, but we don't rule it. We'd need a MUCH bigger army for that!
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 5:37 pm |
Ok. Now I'll try to give an example of a sane statement: I look for dignity and non-violence in and woman/guy.
Maury - "The fella was referring to economic and cultural hegemony,not force."
Then I think that fella would be wrong again. Human beings throughout the world have similar wants and desires. We all have commonalities.
If Americans exhibit cultural and economic success then it may be copied but it certainly isn't forced. People make choices. I like our choices that we have made in the USA. I am happy to have earned my own home and vehicles and now I can play on the internet. Word gets around that I'm a happy guy. Other people want it. How is that hegemony?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 6:01 pm |
How many digits of pi do you know?
I do not like the usa.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:11 pm | #
Perth it is.
truth - "Enough robbery and thefts !
We had more than enough !"
Sooner or later 'truth', the Kurds will have to form alliances for self defense. You may be skeptical at this time about the Iraqi Shia, but they will eventually separate themselves from the Iranians. Because the Shia have majority in Iraq, you will HAVE to deal with them. It's enevitable. I think the USA has made it very clear that we support Kurdish autonomy but the USA will not undertake the role of Kurdish protector. The Baathists are proven enemies, the new Shia Iraqi government is yet to be tested. You should be cordial for now.
I think you meant 'reversing' the Arabization policy of Saddam not 'revising' it.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 7:56 pm |
No you're not!
ghandi you're a fool if you think the USA should continue to be poked by Saddam because self-determination in Iraq might be dangerous for them.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:26 pm |
No, I'm Perk.
BTW 'truth' the USA will not support the Kurds in an Arab vs. Kurd fight unless the Kurds have made every effort to promote cooperation. If Kurds pick a fight with the Arabs, they're on their own.
The USA has made every effort to act as mediator between the Kurds and Arabs. Just as the USA has made every effort to mediate the brawl between India and Pakistan. A lasting peace in the region is in US interests. The USA has oil deals to make in the region and oil is flamable.
Saddam was nuts. There was no way the USA could have developed a long term economic relationship with him.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 8:11 pm |
You are not a smart bot are you?
So then, he wadard it up and threw this one into the swirling water - "I think it is ironic that you have a faith based presidency in the US trying to establish a secular government in Iraq."
Well, tie me Kangaroo down mate! Cuz Wadard's hangin out in the shed!
How is it that you understand so little about Republicans Wadard, and yet you pretend so much?
Have a merry nothing Wadard.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 8:35 am |
Apparently you're a bit mushy in the short term memory department.
How is it McCain didn't make the Rino list?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 8:36 am |
Because I found your outburst to be random and unprovoked.
"Saddam wasn't a threat to you"
- Wadard
USS Stark - 37 dead
near miss on an ex pres
(forget about it, Wadard says so )
"using you rudder will get you out of irons" - Wadard
clever, using you brain could help u too
Hey Wadard, put 182,000 dead Kurds in your basement and see if it doesn't make a difference in your life.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 9:23 am |
I will just tell you.. If I were born today I would be 97 in my time...
Apparently you're a bit mushy in the short term memory department.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:20 pm | #
Everything you say is very clever!
It seems an illusory 'braggart neoconservative' US military actually did remove the Taliban from power and put Saddam in a dock for trial. Oh my, the imperial hegemony of it all.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 10:50 am |
Duh - that's me all over.
"The vulnerabilities are only manifested in the rebuilding process."
Apparently, removal of oppressive regimes is insufficient. Responsibility for complete restructuring in now implied. That's an impressive addendum for those who otherwise would have done nothing.
Indeed Amar, let me compliment you on your aggravation.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:03 am |
Computers make more rational decisions, are less constrained by emotion, and require fewer resources.
"I think Wadard, Scott and Lee prefer a 'Merry Nothing'."
You just live off there in your fantasy land. Remember this: We're not trying to bring you back.
Oh, I forgot to compliment you Amar on your sharp barbs (points).
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:10 am |
But then, by saying that you deny the presence of cheese.
I will just tell you.. If I were born today I would be 97 in my time...
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:22 pm | #
(0
9586 8128
Nothing like having the comments section cut and pasted, with incoherent comments beneath them - yup, nothing like it.
And let me give you just one more compliment Anmar for your illusory recognition of the neocon taxcut that improved the US economy. As you implied, it was good management.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:25 am |
What are you talking about?
Tommy, Iraq has sufficient resources to rebuild itself. We are only obligated to assist in security. What kind of American taxpayer largess did you have in mind for Iraq?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:30 am |
Tell me more.
But then, by saying that you deny the presence of cheese.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:25 pm | #
08 9825 3032
In a dangerous world, I don't see how it helps us to pretend that we are weak.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:41 am |
It's ok you have enough time to be smarter.
TaSS,
Oil revenue will separate Iran from Iraq more convincingly than Sistani will. Iraqi She'at will not wish to share their oil wealth with their Iranian brothers. I don't think it will be a hostile relationship. Cooperation is in both parties interests.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:33 pm |
And I wanted to know because?
Tell me more.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:27 pm | #
08 9825 3039
Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey
European hypocrisy.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 12:04 pm |
I don't think I'm going to vote for you.
And I wanted to know because?
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:29 pm | #
you love me!
AMAR...incompetence...incompetence...Wicked Witch of the West...OZ
"The meek shall inherit the earth." Clearly, we should kill the meek and bury them in the earth.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 12:37 pm |
Yes, the west coast of the USA.
Dr. Jasser’s case illustrates why American Muslims stay silent: because the price of speaking out is immediate, coordinated attack. Sometimes the Wahhabi offensive on American soil is accompanied by physical threats; violence is not excluded. Born Muslims, living “in the community,” seldom came to America expecting to find Islam in this country run by Wahhabis -- to the immigrant, it was inconceivable that such a situation would be permitted in the US. And yet, thanks to the Saudis, it came to pass, and just as President Bush should push the Saudis to quit financing radicalism, ordinary Americans should write groups like CAIR out of the roster of respectability. These are militants with an incurable penchant for intimidation. Their psychological reign of terror in America must end no less quickly than the literal bloodshed brought by their mentors in Iraq.
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article....aspx?
id=122105F
don't think I'm going to vote for you.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:30 pm | #
You don't love me!
I kept the 'surrender chicken' RG. That one is great!
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 7:06 pm |
But then I spent so many nights just feeling sorry for myself.
I agree with you Allah's Cousin on the part about Arabs needing the political courage to speak up. Unfortunatly they have a tradition of shooting desenters in that part of the world.
Did Bush41 blunder when he encouraged Iraqi to remove Saddam? Well, he overstepped his authority if that implied American military support without the consent of Congress. Besides, we hadn't wasted 10 years on a fruitless containment policy yet.
The complaints from the noble defenders of dictators, Al-jazeera, is that the American removal of Saddam cost the lives of 30,000 innocent Iraqi.
In 1991, without the support of today's high tech weaponary that number would have been far higher. If Iraqi today barely see the benefit of their freedom as out weighing the cost of their lives, then imagine what their story would have been in 91.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 7:27 pm |
Ok so we agree.
Why is civil war mentioned as an option in Arab lands? Have they no real faith in democracy?
It is only supposed to be a war of ideas. Constant attempts at political assination in that part of the world is their shame.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 7:42 pm |
I'm not sure you say it is.
Mob rule - US Democrats believe in it too.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 8:37 pm |
Oh, of course I can see it though of course computers can't.
I guess lame duck bashing serves a political tenderizing function.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 8:56 pm |
In short, today the questions and their answers may be changing again.
Ok so we agree.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:33 pm | #
I hate you!
Only 26 blue streaks from our intensely loyal opposition.
Slacker!
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 9:12 pm |
Would you like to know more about Ghost in the Shell?
Oh, is that why Murtha voted against an immediate pull out? Did 73 year old Murtha forget why he came to Congress that day? Had he meant to pull out before he didn't?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 9:26 pm |
No, I know why that is. It's a Microsoft product.
"So what do you suggest be done to keep Iraq from falling into a civil war?"
The She'at and Kurds are already getting what they want. Only the Sunni-Bathists are fighting and their tactics alienate. It is presently as much of a civil war as it is going to get. The Bathists have been decimated by the Eagle. Present Bathist belligerency is all they can manage. With US training, the She'at/Kurds will overcome them.
Don't poke the Eagle!
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:40 pm |
Then I suppose they'll soon bring the white bread and the brown?
tommy, the natural alliance is for Kurds and She'ats to protect their oil from outside incursion. The Sunni minority is out of the picture. There is no reason for Iraqi Kurds and She'at to be hostile to the USA. There is no reason to expect hostility from the Bathists to increase. The Bathists are giving it all they got now. The Kurds and She'at will supress them. The USA is showing them how.
Does everyone understand why the USA disbanded Saddam's army and created a new Kurd/She'at loyal army?
Don't poke the Eagle! That's the message.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:54 pm |
And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty?
I vote for the miracle. - Michael
good one
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 3:57 pm |
Sure it is.. What's your favourite movie ?
marine dad, from what I've read, the dems are inept at directing the US Military to serve American interests. US Democrats are as likely to support foreign interests as they are to support American interests.
Anon - "And, thereby, demonstrate to the whole world that Iraq is just our imperial possession."
That's an exageration. The USA has influence in Iraq. The USA has influence all over the world. No country is an island anymore. The world also has influence over the USA.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 4:25 pm |
Who wrote it?
In short, today the questions and their answers may be changing again.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:37 pm | #
You are boring me.
moron99 - "working jib. It should be noted that it is in the best interests of kurdistan to prevent Baghdad from becoming a reflection of Tehran."
I don't know that the Kurds care about Baghdad. They prefer autonomy and they won't get that by sharing control of Baghdad. Control of Kirkuk is key to the Kurds, not Baghdad.
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 4:30 pm |
How tall are you?
Who wrote it?
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:43 pm | #
.... yawn.
exguru - "In America the "liberals" have worked for several decades via the schools and the courts to exterminate Christianity--with only modest success."
Is 'anti-christian' the new definition of 'liberal' now?
working jib | Email | Homepage | 12.21.05 - 4:38 pm |
No, it's springtime.
How tall are you?
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper USAF | Email | Homepage | 12.22.05 - 11:44 pm | #
zzzzzzz
I thought "liberal" was the new (as of about 1950!?)definition of "socialist" in the US? Does socialism require atheism? Or is that only communism?
So complicated! Why can't people just be honest about their political philosophies? If you're THAT embarrassed about your politics, your politics fucking SUCK, eh?
Since then, U.S. helicopters have flown 2,500 sorties, carried 16,000 passengers and delivered nearly 6,000 tons of aid. Just as importantly, the Chinook has become America's new emblem in Pakistan, a byword for salvation in an area where until recently the U.S. was widely and fanatically detested. Toy Chinooks (made in China, of course) are suddenly popular with Pakistani children. A Kashmiri imam who denounced the U.S. in a recent sermon was booed and heckled by worshippers. "Pakistan is not a nation of ingrates," a local businessman told me over dinner the other night. "We know where the help is coming from."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/ed...ml?
id=110007711
WorkingJib,
Umm... yes... it would appear GW41 did overstep his authority in '91 by giving the false impression that he could help a Shitte insurgency, which he didnt, which resulted in the tragic loss of life...
Glad we agree on that.
What I do take issue with, is this however:
"In 1991, without the support of today's high tech weaponary that number would have been far higher. If Iraqi today barely see the benefit of their freedom as out weighing the cost of their lives, then imagine what their story would have been in 91."
Uh, no, I do not subscribe to the notion that Iraqis should say "Oh, we should only be so lucky, ONLY 30,000 dead". In fact, I think that is quite a sick thing to say. Because by the logic you have put forth, if waiting longer means less dead, then maybe you should have waited for another 300 years to attack Iraq. That way you would have had the help of precision laser cannons and Klingons.
-Allah's Cousin
"I thought 'liberal' was the new (as of about 1950!?)definition of "socialist" in the US? "
That's cause you've been hearing the noise put out by playertwo and Lee McDaniel et al, and you've been sucked in by it. This tactic was famously summarized by Josef Goebbels, not Joe Stalin, as Mr. McDaniel claimed, and it remains to this day a staple in the right-wing hate machine arsenal.
So much to scroll, today. And, I'm not referring to Allah's Cousin, or any of the other real people.
The US also attacked two neighbours - Mexico
Wadard
Are you kidding me or are you that desperate to bring up 1836?
Shall we go back in the history of Europe over 100 years to prove you are imperialistic, war-like and blood thirsty?
Saddam is one man in one period of time.
The US provided Saddam with weapons to fight Iran?
We provided Saddam with less then 1% of his weapons, ranking #9 on a list dominated by Russia and France. Where is your outrage against them?
The US was engaging in torture?
Were we throwing people in paper shredders? Or are you placing underwear on the head in the same category? And we punished those soldiers.
The US was using chemical weapons in Fallujah?
Was the population of Fallujah laying on the ground dead like in Halabja?
And yet through your attempts to portray America as the enemy, you continue to defend the reign of one of the world's bloodiest tyrants.
How long was the United States and Great Britain supposed to maintain a no-fly zone over his OWN country? To keep him from killing his OWN people? How many children needed to die in Iraq from sanctions while Saddam bribed officials to acquire more and more weapons? And build more and more statues and palaces?
Bring your arguments to the Iraqi people. The future is now up to them and they will judge Saddam.
It must kill you Wadard that the United States and Australia are such strong allies.
But again, don't bring your arguments to me. Bring them to the Australians.
And it seems to me that you lost that arguments in the last elections.
Let's see what happens to the Islamicist parties when they actually have to govern--including getting garbage out of the streets as well as parading soldiers on various special occasions. Maybe they'll learn a little more responsibility and unlearn some heated rhetoric.
Jericho: what Russian-Persian coalition in the last days? If you mean the chief (rosh) of Meshach and Tubal mentioned in Ezekial (who's buried in Iraq, BTW), those refer to ancient countries of Anatolia that invaded the ME after Babylonian power began to wane.
yeah valerie,guess the kiddies
are on christmas vacation now..
or moveon gave a big raise to
their trolls
thank god we can scroll
and make these
The number of 30 000 mentioned it is true undesired by no sane brain on earth ,but if Saddam was still in power he would easily outnumbered that figure by now probably by many folds the over 320 killing fields discovered and still to be discovered all over Iraq is too strong testmony as he was cornered and the Iraqis were so desperate escaping out of Iraq by all means as many hundreds of them end up eaten by fish drowned in the meditarenian on their way to freedom ,and in prison,in prostitution...etc
The liberation of Iraqis it become a must ,and allowing him to rule further an insult to mankind ,not only making mockery of Iraqi's lives ,but the UN as a world institution and every written principle known to Man !
The brave Iraqi's lives and The allies are not wasted ,no matter whatever the outcome will be far superior than before .
The cost high proportionaly to the gravity of the task at hand .
truth,
i laugh everytime he complains
in court
but i also cry when i think
of what he and others have
done
The Arms of mass destruction according to a giornalist escaped and by many eye witneses smuggled just days before the troops entered (during the haggle in Turkey to allow the troops enter from the northern front,then they vetoed the entry)......this allowed Saddam to re evalute the gravity of the situation and send it to Syria on a condition to help his remanent if they survive !
The site in the Golan area at least 3 with a strong missle protections ....SAT photographs and hand writen statements ....interesting I must admit abit convincing ....in any new conflicts this dangerous site will be first to be wiped out ..
Not now ...later if you want I shall get you the link to look at !it is originaly in Arabic ,but some friends they did transelate it in English !
truth,
Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction. Even a paper shredder was a weapon in his hands.
And I understand something else. This argument will not be won or lost with us. History will judge the winner. But as every bloody tyrant in the Middle East and throughout the world also understands, there is more at stake in this battle.
Causing Iraq to fail and in that light, making American sacrifices and America's battle for freedom, failures, will still the United State's hands in future conflicts. And that is why the world is looking for the failure of America and the quest for freedom. We won't be so quick to jump to the aid of the next people or to take out the next bloody r. We'll go home with our tail between our legs knowing we did more harm then good.
The outcome of this battle will have reverberations for the future.
I stand with the Iraqis. They deserve their freedom and they deserve a future filled with hope and peace.
The hope for humanity may actually be once again battling in the area that gave rise to civilization.
"And that is why the world is looking for the failure of America and the quest for freedom."
"The world…?" Okay, here's a thought for ya. If the desire for freedom lives in the hearts of all men, as Bush so often proclaims, and if the whole world wants "America and the quest for freedom" to fail, how are these two incompatible concepts to be reconciled?
We provided Saddam with less then 1% of his weapons, ranking #9 on a list dominated by Russia and France. Where is your outrage against them?
i could be outraged about french and russian weapon tardes, if i wasn t so busy correcting misleading information that you are posting!
the US supported Saddam during his war against Iran. FACT!
unfortunetly, you were too late in your decision, to train Iraqis for US tanks and planes. instead you gave them what they needed most: cover before the UN. helicopters. chemicals. and sattelite images.
the US supported Saddam, while he was using chemical weapons. FACT.
--------------
The US was engaging in torture?
Were we throwing people in paper shredders? Or are you placing underwear on the head in the same category? And we punished those soldiers.
the paper shredder is a myth!
you look stupid, when you repeat a lie all over again.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
analys...1155399,00.html
it didn t exist. FACT:
"Iraq did not hold an election last week - it held a census. Shias voted for a Shia list, Sunnis for a Sunni list, and Kurds turned out for a Kurdish list."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...icle%
2FShowFull
Mr. Cheney's Imperial Presidency.
Chalabi¿s defeat puts U.S. friends in quandary.
Outside View: Happy days for neocons.
News of Surveillance Is Awkward for Agency .
Daschle: Congress Denied Bush War Powers in U.S.
Newly Emboldened Congress Has Dogged Bush This Year.
Tony Blair yesterday told our troops in Iraq what we all want to hear.
Many of our servicemen and women will be coming home next year if Iraq's own security forces continue to hold the line.
The PM also paid a well deserved tribute to our forces. He said by defeating terrorism in Iraq "they were dealing a huge body-blow to terrorists world-wide."
Mr Blair's decision to go to war in Iraq three years ago was a difficult one - but absolutely correct.
And he is right that democracy in Iraq will be a big step forward for peace around the world.
At home Mr Blair is said to be pushing on with reforms to finish his time in office as a winner. But, if terrorism is beaten, Mr Blair's real legacy will lie overseas.
And for that he will thank the courage and dedication of British soldiers, sailors and airmen.
Merry Xmas to them all.
US lawsuit could dent global war-contractor boom.
Torture ban mends U.S. image among Europeans.
That makes no sense at all Anguisel. OBL thought we were weak and the mistake that he made killed 3000 and destroyed two buildings.
marine dad
No we where weak. Not anymore, well at least for the next 3 years.
US halts Arabic magazine meant to boost US image.
Cheney the Bully; Rockefeller the Coward.
The Trew Law of Free Democracies?
Caeneus:
Cranks, hacks, poverty-stricken scholars,
In pince-nez, period hats or romantic beards
Hanging like bats in a world of inverted values,
Folded up in themselves in a world which is safe and silent.
Caeneus:
Or because they hope these walls will deaden
The drumming of the demon in their ears.
Every now and then, something really unusual shows up in the press. Here is an article written by a former assistant attorney general in the Clinton Administration, Mr. John Schmidt, now in private practice.
He answers the question of whether the President has the inherent power to do the alleged “spying” that is the basis for the call for impeachment du-jour.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ne...ncommentary-
hed
This article shows that US Presidents will act more like other US Presidents rather than like party members, and that the power of Congress to override executive decisions is limited.
The reason I hope you will read it, though, is not because of the issue of the day, but as an example of something the Clinton administration did very well, that the present Republican administration and the Democratic party should learn to do as well. That is, to make a substantive reply to overheated, unfounded charges of wrongdoing.
The article sets forth a clear statement of the facts, the applicable law, and a credible analysis. It points directly to the applicable statute in question, and the relevant court opinions. One can readily go to the underlying court opinion to find out whether this argument really makes sense.
pete,
If the tally of UK troops in Iraq can be comfortably reduced by Christmas next year, that will not constitute the end of Britain's role in this region. The total of British soldiers in Afghanistan will almost certainly continue to rise as Nato expands its International Security Assistance Force there from about 9,000 today to around 15,000 next year. This mission has a lower profile than that in Iraq and both the casualty figures and the controversy attached to it have been quite modest. It is, however, a crucial operation. It is again one where real progress can be shown. The British presence in the Balkans attracts less publicity, but also plays a pivitol part in keeping a peace.
All this activity comes at a cost - often financial, sometimes political, always human - and it is a price that particularly stark at this time of year. It will be most vivid in Iraq where thousands of Services personnel will pass the festive season without their families. Yet that cost has to be balanced against what has been a major achievement so far and one with the potential to bring more benefits. "Troops out" is the lazy cry of protest. "Troops in" is a genuine response to human need.
"And that is why the world is looking for the failure of America and the quest for freedom."
"The world…?" Okay, here's a thought for ya. If the desire for freedom lives in the hearts of all men, as Bush so often proclaims, and if the whole world wants "America and the quest for freedom" to fail, how are these two incompatible concepts to be reconciled?
Lee C. ― U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 12.23.05 - 8:51 am | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
...'The World' has been cravenly stupid and short sighted repeatedly in the past 100 years, wouldn't you say? How many 'appeasement strategies' were followed by the 'oh so reasonable, peace in our time' crowd? (I'll ask you the same question I'd ask my 14 yr old daughter, if all your friends were jumping off a cliff, would you jump too?)
Valerie -
In the last several days, many instances of precendent have been put forward. All previous administrations have circumvented FISA.
Here is a good read by Charles Krauthammer
But as John Schmidt, associate attorney general in the Clinton administration, writes: ``Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms.'' Indeed, Clinton's own deputy attorney general testified to Congress that ``the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes,'' then noted a few minutes later that ``courts have made no distinction between electronic surveillances and physical searches.''
It just seems that the extreme left and Bush's political opponents have gone over the edge looking in every hole, nook and cranny for a reason to begin impeachment proceedings.
Where were these people when the Clinton justice dept entered, and searched Aldrich Ames home, and confiscated evidence, including computers? These people are clearly on a witchhunt and the MSM is clearly eager to assist in any way they can.
Time is running out for them. They know that if Bush ends his presidency with an unblemished legal record, and a democracy in the heart of the Arab world, history will record it is as successful.
I failed to include that the search and seizure conducted by the Clinton Justice Dept on Aldridge Ames....was warrantless.
One more quick note on this subject. Did anyone hear Republicans or other conservatives screaming for Clintons head while he was circumventing FISA? No!
Somethings are more important than politics, and national security is one of them.
Anon was me
hmmm reports of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's protesting the elections. This is both bad and good news. They must allow international inspectors in to check on the ballots now. I think this is good. The bad news is that if this is not resolved properly it could finally lead to the much feared cival war.
Strangly, if all the opposition parties united then the shia party would be in the miinority. I would think this would be a great outcome. hmm is this possible? comments?
For a few weeks following the liberation of Baghdad and after the minders left, the press listened to the victims of Saddam Hussein, and shared their stories.
Did *they* lie?
"When I was in Iraq a doctor from Basra told me that, after being jailed by the police some years ago, he refused to tell his inquisitors whatever it was they wanted to hear. Instead of beating him, he told me, they brought in his 3-month-old daughter. The interrogator tore the screaming infant's eye out. When the desired answers were still not forthcoming, the questioner hurled the little girl against the concrete wall and smashed her skull."
-- The New York Times, July 26, 2003
Iraqi exiles agreed that Uday Hussein, the eldest of five children, personified the government's random brutality. Human rights groups and Iraqi exiles accused him of routinely kidnapping women off the streets, raping and sometimes torturing them, and personally supervising the torture and humiliation of hundreds of prisoners. Such conduct earned him the title "Abu Sarhan," the Arabic term for "father of the wolf."
-- The New York Times, July 23, 2003
"Now, 12 years later, xxxx cannot remember if the women and children beside him screamed as the bullets hit, or whether the men in the hole moaned as they died. He only recalls a moment of hollow silence when the soldiers stopped shooting. Then came the throaty rumble of a backhoe and the thud of wet earth dropping on bodies. He survived but saw hundreds of other innocents buried in another of Saddam Hussein's anonymous mass graves."
-- The New York Times, June 2, 2003
"Her most disturbing memory is of the time she felt nothing but her own pain. After the beatings and electric shocks, xxxx would find herself once again in the fetid cell, a room so crowded that most prisoners could only stand. The women died upright, then slumped to the floor, but xxxx remembers registering only a dull flash of annoyance whenever that happened. 'Get this body out of the way,' she would think to herself. 'It's taking up room.' She was imprisoned, she believes, because her four brothers had been arrested in Mr. Hussein's blanket crackdown on Shiites suspected of supporting Iran or the Islamic Dawa Party."
-- The New York Times, June 2, 2003
"The soldiers took them out in groups of 100 to 150 people. When his time came, xxxx was ordered to remove his T-shirt and rip it into strips that were tied over his eyes and around his hands. The prisoners were herded onto a bus, everyone holding on with their teeth to the shirt of the person in front of them. When they arrived at a field - xxxx is still not sure where - their grave had already been prepared. 'They led us down an incline into a wide long hole,' he said. 'It was quiet. No one fell or even cried. I was positioned very close to the corner, maybe second or third from the wall. Then they started shooting. Somehow I wasn't hit. By then, I guess, they didn't go to the trouble of shooting all of us.' After the grave was covered, xxxx, alive but choking on dirt, wormed his way out of the ditch. He punched through the earthen blanket with his head, and worked himself free of the cloth straps. Gulping the cold night air, he knew that all his soldierly ideas about honor and country counted for nothing."
-- The New York Times, June 2, 2003
"She spent one year being moved from prison to torture center to prison and back. Her tormenters would hang her from a hook in the ceiling by her arms, which were bound behind her back. Sometimes they added electric shocks. Sometimes they beat her on the soles of her feet until they were engorged with blood and her toenails fell off. She was 25.
"'I was lucky that I became like a dead body,' she said. 'I didn't know what was going on around me. There was no water, no bathroom. The only food was two big pots they brought in, one with dirty rice and one of soup. You had to fight for it. If you were strong and healthy, you'd get food. If you were weak, you'd wait.'
"After the torture came the sham trial, then a sentence to spend her life at Rashad women's prison, a maze of unheated cells where the sewage would float from the one toilet down the corridors and seep onto the women's rough mattresses."
-- The New York Times, June 2, 2003
"His mother tried to keep him close, but her hands were tied and she could not hold the children. They all stumbled into the ready-made grave. 'They were shooting at us, but I didn't get hit,' xxxx said. 'I was lying on top of my mother. Then someone came down in the hole and dragged me up by my collar and yelled, "Shoot this kid!" I was pretending to be dead. And they started shooting at me again, but still I didn't get hit. Then the shovel came.' He felt himself being lifted with the dirt and dropped once again into the hole. 'I rolled myself to the edge and then to a place where there were reeds and water and the reeds were all sticking in my face,' he recalled. 'My body wasn't covered with the dirt, just my head. I could breath but I didn't move. A man came to check and was standing over the hole where everyone was buried and he called to the shovel driver, "Come and cover this kid." But the driver, maybe he didn't hear, because he didn't come.'"
-- The New York Times, June 1, 2003
"[J]ust to see the landscape of bones mixed with clothing, skulls strewn in the splay of human detritus and other remains is chilling. At first, it just seems like hundreds of bundles of clothes have been laid out on the dikes and roads that cut through the marshes here.
"Then the traces of human anatomy appear. A femur from a leg, a humerus from an arm, a shard of pelvis, and skull peeking out from a gray blanket that someone assembling remains laid down. The bundles reveal themselves as the former repositories of living human flesh, before the gunfire sent them on their journey into the marsh.
"'It's a kind of hell out there,' said xxxx, who no longer plants onions where so many bodies have been desecrated. 'We have always known that there were people here, but we couldn't take them,' he said. 'We knew our Muslim brothers were not buried properly, but we couldn't say a word.'"
-- The New York Times, May 14, 2003
'A slightly broader picture of what happened has emerged from the chief gravedigger, just 21 years old. He is xxxxand he said he began digging graves here when he was 14 to fulfill his military service.
"He said he received the bodies every Wednesday at about 11 a.m., after the weekly hangings at around 5 a.m. There were never fewer than nine bodies to bury. During one especially bad time in 2001, he said, the numbers rose. One day he buried 18 people. He said he had never told anyone the details of his job. 'I didn't open my mouth, or I would have ended up with these poor people here,' he said."
-- Report on Al Qarah Cemetery, The New York Times, April 25, 2003
"Thousands of people are missing in Iraq, victims of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, but a more visible legacy are the parts that are missing from people who survived. Missing eyes, ears, toenails and tongues mark those who fell into the hands of Mr. Hussein's powerful security services."
-- The New York Times, April 24, 2003
''Upstairs, accessible by a back stairway only, are about 100 individual cells, dark and windowless, stinking of urine. In one sits a plate of half-eaten food, biscuits and rice, still resting on a green plastic tray. At the end of a hallway lies a pile of bindings and blindfolds.
"An elevator, the only one in the place, leads to the basement and more cells. There are shackles in one room, long cables in another. On another floor there is a small operating room, where some former prisoners said doctors harvested the organs of those who did not survive.
"Finally, out back, stand three portable morgues, metal buildings the size of tool sheds, with freezer units attached. Inside one are six aluminum trays, each the length of a body."
-- The New York Times, April 21, 2003
xxxx, who never returned, was taken away with his brother xxx and his cousin xxx. They were taken to Baghdad and tortured with electrified wire, xxx said. 'The screaming terrified me,' he recalled of the dark, poorly ventilated torture chamber. 'I was a boy then, 15. I have never heard anything like that before or since.'"
-- The New York Times, April 17, 2003
For days now, scores of desperate Iraqis have turned up outside the state security complex here, searching for their missing loved ones, begging the American troops who guard its gates to help them find the relatives whom they believe to be trapped in a prison beneath the sprawling grounds.
"With the fall of Saddam Hussein's government, 30 years of buried history is slowly being resurrected. The Iraqis who appear each morning calling out names and dates of arrest are hoping that their missing brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles will be resurrected along with the past.
"They hold up one finger, two fingers, four fingers, trying to explain to the Americans how many relatives are supposedly in the jail. They throng the gates from dawn to dusk, holding up photos of their vanished loved ones and holding desperately onto hope."
-- The New York Times, April 17, 2003
"...in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk."
-- Eason Jordan, CNN chief news executive, in The New York Times
Hey what is with people upset that America is spending money trying to spin a positive media image of America in the middle east? Can people maybe get upset with other countries trying to put a negative media spin on American in the middle east? For gods sakes! Why is it wrong only when America does it? Do you think Americans are seriously upset over this issue? Good god it is only politicians living in their own little out of touch world. People do the world a favor, slap a politician today. Thanks!
"'We smelled something rotten, and when we breathed in, we couldn't breathe out. The sky was full of smoke, and someone said it was chemicals. People started crying and running toward the mountains. I was burning and I became blind, but someone led me out. After walking for two days, we reached Iran.' xxx was the only member of his family to survive the gassing of Halabja by the Iraqi military on March 16, 1988."
-- The Washington Post, August 7, 2003
"In the last room, where she was held for several hours, the door was locked. At sunset two men entered. She recalled they said they had to take routine security precautions in advance of a meeting with Uday Hussein. They slipped a black hood over her head and tied her hands behind her back. The anxiety, which had mounted through the day, flared into terror. She was taken down to a lower level in an elevator and then along a passageway that seemed narrow because of the way the two men bumped against her. She was pushed into a room and tied, spread-eagle, to a bed.
"'All of this period, I didn't resist,' she said. 'But on the bed, I knew. I said, "I am like your sister; please don't do this." I started to beg. They said if our sister married an Indian and started a network against the government, we would kill her. I kept praying, calling for Jesus and the Virgin Mary. I prayed to Muhammad. They damned them all.'
"'They raped me twice that first day,' she continued. 'I don't know the persons. Two of them. I couldn't see them. They kept raping for four days as well as I can remember. They took my honor.'
"Over the next seven months, Hanna said, she implicated people she had never heard of in a spy network she knew nothing about. She was routinely beaten and she said the Major, in a grotesque joke, kept three sticks on a wall hanging under the names Jesus, the prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali, whom Shiite Muslims believe is Muhammad's true heir. Whichever holy man a prisoner called out for determined which stick they were beaten with. The Major, she said, also routinely used electric shock and once set a police dog on her in a small room; the scar of the bite mark is still on her arm.
"One of his preferred forms of torture, she said, was to order the women to strip, then tie them to the tree trunk, and smear wet sugar on them so the dogs would terrorize them as they licked it off their bodies. Hanna also identified his superior at the academy."
-- The Washington Post, July 21, 2003
Former prisoners of ousted president Saddam Hussein's government are everywhere in Basra, standing on street corners waiting for water, rummaging through papers in the headquarters of the once feared secret police, sitting quietly at home on a hot afternoon. These are the tortures they describe, and more: a prisoner forced to sit on a heated metal stove, electric shocks applied to genitals, a small blade used to slash a prisoner's back. Even doctors became torturers; they cut off army deserters' ears. Servants of the system fell victim to it, too: police officers and prison guards arrested, tortured, then sent back to work. Torture was considered so routine that many former prisoners shrugged at first when asked about it. 'Of course, they tortured me. Beating people here is something regular,' said xxxxx."
-- The Washington Post, April 19, 2003
"xxxx was there, too, looking. He has been missing his brother since 1991 as well, when the 17-year-old was taken from their home at 4 a.m. His uncle is also missing, and his cousin was executed in 1996. Altogether, he has six relatives who were arrested and whose whereabouts are unknown. 'I'm very lucky they just took five or six relatives,' he said, nodding in the direction of Abdul Wahab. 'Some people had five or six brothers taken.'"
-- The Washington Post, April 19, 2003
xxx belonged to Saddam's Fedayeen, a security force led by Hussein's elder son, Uday. For the better part of a decade, he recalled, he assassinated opposition figures, broke the backs of those accused of lying to the government and chopped off tongues, fingers, hands and once even a head.
"'It didn't matter if we felt he was guilty or not guilty. We had to do it,' he explained. 'These people were against Saddam Hussein. If we got orders to punish him, we would go and do it. If Uday said to cut off his tongue, we would do it. Or his hands or fingers or his head. Anything. We would do it.'"
"'I just followed orders,'" he said.
-- The Washington Post, April 22, 2003
....In another neighborhood, a group of some 100 children, clothed mostly in rags and newly released from one of the regime's prisons, hugged and kissed the Marines who had freed them."
-- The Washington Post, April 10, 2003
"An Iraqi soldier, who according to the facility's records witnessed the beatings, said interrogators regularly used pliers to remove men's teeth, electric prods to shock men's genitals and drills to cut holes in their ankles.
"In one instance, the soldier recalled, he witnessed a Kuwaiti soldier, who had been captured during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, being forced to sit on a broken Pepsi bottle. The man was removed from the bottle only after it filled up with his blood, the soldier said. He said the man later died.
"'I have seen interrogators break the heads of men with baseball bats, pour salt into wounds and rape wives in front of their husbands,' said former Iraqi soldier xxxx, 41. He then revealed dozens of Polaroid pictures of beaten and dead Iraqis from the directorate's files."
-- USA Today, April 14, 2003
"The executions took place two or three times on most days, xxxx said. Each time, between 100 and 150 blindfolded people, their hands and sometimes feet bound, were led into pits about 10 feet deep. Gunmen then fired into the pit, often for several minutes, xxx said. A bulldozer then pushed dirt onto the bodies, sometimes burying or crushing people who had survived the volley and were trying to climb out."
-- Los Angeles Times, May 14, 2003
The Baath Party completely dominated life in Iraq. Until this week, every neighborhood had a Baath official who kept tabs on the area, ran a network of informants and recruited members into the party, say Iraqis. It wasn't difficult to figure out who they were: They had the best cars and the nicest houses and they had money to throw around."
"It didn't take much to run afoul of the party. A wrong word or chance comment within earshot of an informant often was enough to earn an interrogation or worse, according to residents of southern Iraq. There was little accountability, charges were difficult to counter and informants were eager to turn in 'troublemakers' to prove their own value."
"Ordinary people living in this kind of pressure cooker, where any misstep could be fatal, generally avoided sharing their true feelings with anyone but their closest friends and relatives. Making sure children didn't say an errant word before they understood the implications was also an essential survival tactic. 'You only talked when you were sitting with your very, very closest friends,' said xxxx, 24, an assistant engineering professor. 'If a Baath member heard you, you could be executed.'"
-- Los Angeles Times, April 11, 2003
xxxx headed out for a couple of hours one day in 1985 to buy some medicine and never returned. Thirteen months later, family members say, the police told them they could pick up his body at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. xxx, who, according to relatives, was guilty of nothing more than being a Shiite Muslim in Sunni-ruled Iraq, had been tortured, an eye poked out, an arm broken and his chest burned with electrical wires. The regime of Saddam Hussein then delivered the clincher: Family members were asked to pay 30 dinars, a month's wages, for the bullets that killed him."
-- Los Angeles Times, April 11, 2003
"A chef at Baghdad's exclusive Hunting Club recalls a wedding party that Uday crashed in the late 1990s. After Uday left the hall, the bride, a beautiful woman from a prominent family, went missing. 'The bodyguards closed all the doors, didn't let anybody out,' the chef remembers. 'Women were yelling and crying, "What happened to her?"' The groom knew. 'He took a pistol and shot himself,' says the chef, placing his forefinger under his chin.
"Last October another bride, 18, was dragged, resisting, into a guardhouse on one of Uday's properties, according to a maid who worked there. The maid says she saw a guard rip off the woman's white wedding dress and lock her, crying, in a bathroom. After Uday arrived, the maid heard screaming. Later she was called to clean up. The body of the woman was carried out in a military blanket, she said. There were acid burns on her left shoulder and the left side of her face. The maid found bloodstains on Uday's mattress and clumps of black hair and peeled flesh in the bedroom. A guard told her, "Don't say anything about what you see, or you and your family will be finished."
-- Time, May 25, 2003
"Uday's physical ailments seemed to heighten his sadistic tendencies. According to his chief bodyguard, when Uday learned that one of his close comrades, who knew of his many misdeeds, was planning to leave Iraq, he invited him to his 37th-birthday party and had him arrested. An eyewitness at the prison where the man was held says members of the Fedayeen grabbed his tongue with pliers and sliced it off with a scalpel so he could not talk. A maid who cleaned one of Uday's houses says she once saw him lop off the ear of one of his guards and then use a welder's torch on his face."
-- Time, May 25, 2003
As part of the prison routine, Issa was tortured daily, sometimes twice a day. Battery acid was spilled on his feet, which are now deformed. With his hands bound behind his back, he wa
Anguisel:
That was a rhetorical question, right? I just wanted you to know I knew before I commented.
The world is a metaphorical classroom. If the biggest, baddest kid in the class is a insentitive,agressive bully, no one screws with him. If the biggest kid in the classroom is a sweet guy, a pushover for a loan or for whatever you might need, he is taken advantage of and ridiculed.
You know which the US is considered to be.
I seldon ever post here but I've scrolled through most of the comments. What we fail to realize in all the pros & cons arguements here in this thread is that Iraqis VOTED for other than Saddam without fear of reprocussions (from Saddam and his wacko sons). If there is problems with the vote, let the Iraqis figure it out. We should also realize that Iraq's democracy will not be like the model we have in the USA. There will be differences in the way things are done as well as an islamic influence, whether we like it or not and, unlike some folks that are forcasting doom and all-out civil war, I still have faith that the Iraqis involved in the electoral process will work this out.
Good-bye.
"...I still have faith that the Iraqis involved in the electoral process will work this out."
I do, too, Desert Storm Vet. It's democracy their way, with our help.
Those accounts of torture just show how ridiculous it is to compare President Bush to Hitler or Saddam. Only someone ignorant of the facts with a huge chip on his shoulder would make these comparisons.
How easy to put down the USA. How much more difficult to do something to stop that tyrant.
God help those poor people.
oooops hahahaha wrong article
Valarie, Neonknight,
Many legal folks are pointing to the Supreme court ruling against Nixon on a very similar issue and Nixon also used the 'foreign threat' as the basis for his wiretapping.
"In authorizing electronic surveillance without a court order, President Bush ignored a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision involving a 1960s radical now living in Barry County, those involved in the 1972 case insist.
While careful not to criticize the president, U.S. Appeals Court Judge Damon Keith said he thought the case bearing his name and unanimously upheld by the Supreme Court had put an end to eavesdropping without a warrant.
"I think the case speaks for itself," he said Tuesday. "It appears to me that the Keith case, as interpreted unanimously by the Supreme Court, is the law in this case."
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpres...1650.xml&
coll=6
Ash - Regardless, the Clinton administration actually did set precedent. At this point, the current administration is merely echoing what previous administrations have been claiming for decades.
You want case study?
The 1974 Third Circuit Court’s opinion in U.S. v. Butenko was, "foreign intelligence gathering activity…may be conducted through warrantless electronic surveillance." The Court stipulated "[a]s Commander-in-Chief, the President must guard the country from foreign aggression, sabotage, and espionage."
The Fifth Circuit 1974 case of Ivanov v. United States (419 U.S. 881), stated that "warrantless electronic surveillance (is) permitted so long as the primary purpose was to obtain foreign intelligence."
Unless the Supremes want to clear all of this up with a new ruling, it would seem no harm, no foul.
Again, Anon was me. Not sure why it is all of a sudden removing my name.
Clinton - waco
Bob - At least at Waco they had a warrant. With Aldridge Ames they did not. Gorelick argued that it was not necessary as it involved foreign counterespionage. Of course conservatives weren't screaming for anyones head on a platter over it either.
One more thing Ash - The Supreme Court did President Nixon's contention that he had the power to order wiretapping without a warrant to protect national security. Justice Lewis F. Powell said the court was not ruling on the ‘president's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country."
Neonknight, please stop confusing Ash with facts! They get in the way of his beliefs.
good points all neon!
Neon,
Given the Supreme courts previous rulings (there was one other, I believe, directly related to this issue) coupled with the existence of FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) which was created to specifically provide warrants quickly and secretly and Bush chose to circumvent this, puts him on shaky legal ground. It certainly appears as if the legal mechanisms are swinging into action and we will see courts rule on this.
note: simply because Clinton was alleged to have done something similar doesn't set a legal precedent.
truth - 7:54 a.m. post - I agree. Removing Saddam will never have been a mistake; all the crap that happens after that has no bearing on the fact that Saddam needed to be removed regardless of what is to come in the future.
note: simply because Clinton was alleged to have done something similar doesn't set a legal precedent.
Ash | Email | Homepage | 12.23.05 - 12:57 pm | #
Yes, I suppose we shall see. The Supremes should certainly clarify the issue, as both sides can cite judicial precedent. Personally, I would prefer that the NSA have the authority to monitor conversations between Americans and those we are at war with.
But those of you hoping to bring down the administration on this issue are pissing in the wind. A ruling would be nice, but that is the most you will get.
I've never said anything about hoping to bring down the administration. If Bush were impeached (which is a political act), we'd get Cheney in charge. Hardly ideal.
I think you should be more concerned with the power for a President to conduct warrantless searches. You state that all they are listening to are communications between our enemies. Why do you think that? If that were true, warrants would be easily obtained. I'm guessing they chose not to get warrants in those cases because they either they were acting on information they obtained illegally (i.e. torture) and/or they were fishing, which would mean more then just 'enemies' were being monitored. They do have the technolory to scan all emails for word combos they deem of interest, I think they also have the technology to do that with cell calls as well. You've been active posting here, maybe you've been caught up in their net as well.
p.s., neon, how about if your pal Hillary Clinton becomes the next president. Do you want her to have unfettered search capability simply by claiming she was snooping because of terrorists?
Ash, the original NYT article states that the wiretaps in question were a result of phone munbers and other contact info on the computers of Abu Zubayda and other high-level Qaida members, and then following the chains that these numbers led them to. Although this country is paronoid because of the abuses of wiretapping in the 60's and 70's (snooping on anti-war activists, for example), this current issue is not really comparable, if you go strictly by the information in the original article that started it all. Of course, you are free to allow your mind to take you down any paranoid paths it will.
Read the article - you can only conclude, if you read it with a neutral eye, that the use of wiretapping is far from "unfettered" in this case. If Clinton wants to step over that line in the future, it's her call.
We provided Saddam with less then 1% of his weapons, ranking #9 on a list dominated by Russia and France.
TaSS
"the US supported Saddam during his war against Iran. FACT!"
sod
Arms transfers to Iraq, 1970-2004
"the paper shredder is a myth!"
sod
Angry clash at Hussein trial
Witnesses tell of deaths, torture
Two witnesses who survived a 1982 massacre angrily confronted Iraq's onetime dictator in a courtroom here yesterday, accusing Saddam Hussein of ordering the killing of many villagers and the torture of hundreds of others -- some of them with a meat-grinder.
"you look stupid, when you repeat a lie all over again."
sod
How do you think you look?
Dear all,
After the election done, I don't think it's useful to cry over spilled milk. We should accept it nicely, with a spirit of sportsmen, that the Islamists will role not only for the next 4 years, but maybe for the next years. This's the people choice. As a secular Iraqi, I call for my secular Iraqi fellows to keep faith in democracy and never give it up for Islamists. Maybe when a next new Iraqi generation emerges, people perceptions will change for better.
"(I'll ask you the same question I'd ask my 14 yr old daughter, if all your friends were jumping off a cliff, would you jump too?)"
Do you wait for this question to be as irrelevant to her situation as it was to my observation of an inherent inconsistency in the standard Bushie prattle? For her sake, I would hope not, but I don't guess I'll ever know.
Just for the record: That was a rhetorical question. I don't care to know anything about your parenting skills.
We provided Saddam with less then 1% of his weapons, ranking #9 on a list dominated by Russia and France.
again:
you re talking about soviet tanks, delivered to him 10 years earlier,
while you prefer to forget, that the US started giving him helicopters WHILE HE WAS GASING KURDS AND IRANIANS!
----------------
Two witnesses who survived a 1982 massacre angrily confronted Iraq's onetime dictator in a courtroom here yesterday, accusing Saddam Hussein of ordering the killing of many villagers and the torture of hundreds of others -- some of them with a meat-grinder.
you couldn t support your shredder myth. so it s a meat grinder this time.
what does your own article say about it?
''If I had to describe all the torture, I would need 10 days," he said, his voice breaking as he described women being beaten in front of him, fellow prisoners being electrocuted, and a bloody meat grinder, apparently used by interrogators.
apparently used? that s all you got? (remember, you re in full control of the country!)
Saddam was evil. but we must facer the facts. sure, his security services (and his sons) have raped women. but there were no raperooms, nor were there "proffesional rapists". there never was a peopel shredder. and if a meatgrinder was used in torture, it was an exception. again: you look stupid, if you present it as a fact or the "norm".
There is no deal between Kurds and Shiites over Kirkuk, those same Kurds voted in January 2005 elections and referendum over Constitution in October 2005 und the results of election showed the already known share of each of the main constituents of Iraqi society:
nearly 60% are Arab Shiites
over 20% are Kurds
less than 20% are Sunni Arabs.
Those Kurds voted in Kirkuk are all Kurds from Kirkuk, 200,000 of them are Kurds expelled from Kirkuk during Saddam`s infamous Arabization campaign in Kirkuk (Kurds always had the majority in Kirkuk governorate, und that has prompted Baath regime to Arabization campaign 1968-2003). Kirkuk no doubt will eventually be a part of the Kurdistan federal province in Iraq. The Kurds currently have no intentions to seceed from Iraq. Of course in the case of a bloody civil war in Iraq each faction will try to go its own way, but the prospects of a civil war in Iraq is rather slim.
There is no conspiratory deal between Kurds and Shiites over Kirkuk or Baghdad vote, the same Kurds voted in January 2005 elections and referendum over Constitution in October 2005, also voted in December elections( the Kurds protested because the independent electoral commission (IEC)tried to exlude them from December 2005 elections),and the results of election showed the already known share of each of the main constituents of Iraqi society:
nearly 60% are Arab Shiites
over 20% are Kurds
less than 20% are Sunni Arabs.
p.s. many Shiite Kurds like Shabak Kurds in Mosul and Faili Kurds in Baghdad actually voted for the Shiite alliance rather than Kurdistani alliance, otherwise the share of Kurdish votes could have been more!!
Those Kurds voted in Kirkuk are all Kurds from Kirkuk ( they allhave civil register entries of Kirkuk), 200,000 of them were Kurds expelled from Kirkuk during Saddam`s infamous Arabization campaign in Kirkuk (Kurds always had the majority in Kirkuk governorate, und that has prompted Baath regime to Arabization campaign 1968-2003). Kirkuk no doubt will eventually be a part of the Kurdistan federal province in Iraq. The Kurds currently have no intentions to seceed from Iraq. Of course in the case of a bloody civil war in Iraq each faction will try to go its own way, but the prospects of a civil war in Iraq are rather slim
For the New Year, Time For a Really New Foreign Policy.
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The World¿s Skepticism About U.S. Intentions.
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MidEastWire.com Daily Iraq Monitor.
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Top 10 Antiwar Stories of 2005.
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War, scandals in 2005 boost case for liberty, peace in 2006.
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Italy's Pursuit of CIA Operatives Stalls.
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Some fear security force may need years of help.
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