Hi On your own,

thanks for taking this subject up.

I was in a jekkish, modern-orthodox shul,(i.e. most of the members are not orthodox) and I felt slightly depressed that nobody would burst into song. I also felt depressed by the complicated, "poetic" i.e. hermetic wording of the Slichot and many parts of the prayers.

My conclusion is: There was a time where everyone was so fluent in all the prayer services that it became boring, so they had to add "something special" for yomtov.

I suppose this started a kind of "poetic contest", where every aspiring Talmid chacham would compose "special odes" for yom tov, and the special price everybody aspired to was to be kept forever in a machsor.

The more complicated, metaphorical, "rich in language" it was, the better.

Furthermore, poets loved to respect certain forms (alphabetical order, etc), and I am sure this also went on the expense of clearness.

I suppose that all those piyyutim came with a popular tune, like opera or operette or the hit parade...

The problem is: Time went by, but the piyyutim stayed.

With time, the tunes fell into oblivion, fashion changed, and what stayed is exactely the phenomenon you are pointing out: how many more pages left?

In my town all the communities, even the chareidi ones, tend to cut down the piyyutim, and I will be happy when most of them will have vanished from the machzorim.

I mean: I understand: the longer it takes you to understand it, the more you will enjoy it afterwards. However, I'm not even quite sure whether the composers of those piyyutim mastered their languague correctly. I suspect that they translated from their vernacular language, hence the unusual expressions, etc.

All in all, I find all the classical prayer texts quite straightforward, but I am not at the hight to understand those piyyutim.


Gravatar Yes the services are much too long. And a lot of the poetry is pretty unintelligble even for people who can speak Hebrew pretty well. Growing up, I didn't understand too much of the prayers directly. But of course I'd read the English translations, so I knew what they meant.


Gravatar Just because you choose not to feel, doesn't mean the rest of us - in your words 95% - are like you!


Gravatar Avremele -

First, I don't choose not to feel at all. If you read through my blog, you'll find that even as I have a difficult time believing in Judaism, I actually have pretty strong feelings for it.

Second, I'm glad that the prayers presumably work for you (and apparently most of the people you know?). I'm only reporting on what I've seen in the services in which I've davened; the congregants I've seen in the services I've attended have seemed overwhelmingly uninterested in the majority of prayers (with the exception being those in which they are physically active in some way).

I obviously can't speak for all of the services or all of the Jews everywhere.


Gravatar I think most people daven because its what you're supposed to do. Its divorced from any rational purpose or meaning. Say what it written in the siddur/machzor, and good things will come to you. Not saying the teffilos is seen as an aveirah, and bad things will happen to you.

What it actaully means doesn't really matter to most people. Or at least, the meaning has nothing to do with why they're saying it.


Gravatar I would find it sad if most people davened just because they must, without finding any meaning in Tefilah.

Personally, as a woman, I do not daven very regularly, but still I noted the progress I made in 20 years. First spelling the words without understanding, than starting to understand easier prayers, than understanding without thinking, and eventually findig meaning in them that changes with every time the Tefilah is said.

But medieval poetry is just beyond my grasp. Perhaps I should follow a Shiur on those piyyutim...


Gravatar I was never really into davening except for a few years following the death of my father,when my way of mourning morphed into running to shul 3 times a day even after the 11 months were over. I seldom attend services now unless I am sure there will be a pretty excellent kiddush. For me going to shul means shabbat morning. I often gaze and wonder about the lemmings who incessantly run to a minyan. Bottom line: what you believe is your reality. I can't mumble anymore. On a recent shabbaat near the end of services I marveld at the impossible speed people said the few paragraphs from AIN KEL-L0-HEINU till ALEINU. IMPOSSIBLE.


Gravatar Nice reading your blog there sister. Many of your feelings towards being inside or outside of the OJ community are spot-on. It's a funny thing - you want to leave the theology behind and keep the social/communal aspects. But you can't have both, or can you? That is the divide and it never will shrink. Instead, you will have to either break away or allow your thoughts to remain in your head while enjoying all the good the community has to offer.

Now for the real question - what will you do when you have children of your own? How will you educate them? That is the question, and the Ramblin' Jew ain't got no answer for that.....but he is lookin' and seekin'!!!!!


Gravatar Hey RJ -- Yes, how to educate my children (if I have them?!) is definitely a quandary, and a pretty interesting one at that. I think I know what my next post will be about...




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