I hear you on this one. I feel like the whole orthodox-racist thing is also tied into the whole chosen-people thing. In my grade school we were instilled with a certain sense of Jewish superiority. It's very sad.
I hear this all the time, not only in orthodox circles. But definitely, it's a lot more prevalent in the orthodox world. I don't think this attitude is only limited to ethnic groups (like Hispanics or what not). I don't know how many times I've heard nasty comments about Christians as well.
>I don't know how many times I've heard nasty comments about Christians as well.
Well, when you have a long standing experience of Christians (more than others) of persecuting Jews, that memory is not going to fizzle in a few decades. Don't act so surprised.
What bothers me is well is that there's a fairly high level of racism among secular Israelis, and not just towards Arabs, which at least is somewhat understandable, if not justifiable, but against blacks, latinos, indians, etc.
HH-
>Don't act so surprised.
Maybe not more surprising than any other kind of racism (especially given the history), but still really upsetting and surprising nonetheless.
YH-
I definitely hear you on that. I was actually pretty shocked when my Israeli cousins said, straight up, that they'd be upset if their daughter came home with an Ethiopian boyfriend. That type of attitude is nauseating to me.
>surprising nonetheless.
why?
I guess it's not surprising that it exists, but I would be surprised if I heard it from one of my friends or family members because I expect more from them.
It is disappointing that it exists, though.
>>Well, when you have a long standing experience of Christians (more than others) of persecuting Jews, that memory is not going to fizzle in a few decades. Don't act so surprised.
It is too simplistic to state that Jewish racism is in large part a reaction to persecution. I think there are many other variables to consider, especially the Chazal’s legacy of bigoted halachas and attitudes.
In addition, you should read Modern Orthodox scholar Jacob Katz’s “Exclusivity and Tolerance” for insight into Jewish Christian relations during the medieval period. For a large part of Medieval history (in most of Europe) Jews were allied with the nobility and had a status above all others except for the nobility themselves. Persecution was an exception rather then the rule. Most Christian persecution occurred during specific periods, like the Crusade period (Very little Christian persecution before this, although it became more ubiquitous in the later mediaeval period up through the 20th century)
Don’t forget that Chazal’s bigoted and discriminatory laws against non-Jews were promulgated during a time and place of relative tolerance toward Jews. The ancient world also had significant periods of tolerance (Cyrus, etc). So, the motivation for Chazal’s unconscionable laws and attitudes toward the *other* was rooted as much in Chauvinism as it was in the social policy of inhibiting interaction with Non-Jews. A theological consideration was also a large motivator. I indirectly discuss this issue in a post I wrote a few months ago http://kiruvawarenessnetwork.blo...s-
orthodox.html
>Don’t forget that Chazal’s bigoted and discriminatory laws against non-Jews were promulgated during a time and place of relative tolerance toward Jews.
These laws were not written in one day. Under Roman rule you can hardly say that relations were great. These laws were not written down during the time of Cyrus, but later on. Were the greek better? What about the Byzantine Era?
So ofcourse some of the bigoted atitude comes from centuries of recorded attitudes toward gentiles (which i understand). But don't understand the collective memories of thousands of Jews that witnessed it themselves this past century.
HH,
Come on--YOu know many of these laws and attitutes are as theologically and socially motivated as they are motivated by persection. Also Rome and Greece, contrary to Jewish polemics, was very tolerant as long as the occupied was not politically subversive
>YOu know many of these laws and attitutes are as theologically and socially motivated.
We know nothing. Had the Jewish experience throughout the Ages been more tolerant, it would have been reflected differently in the writings. Persecution IS a social matter.
The story of what the Seluecids did to the temple is not one of tolerance. You have to look at the experiences as a whole and not pockets of good relations here and there.
>>The story of what the Seluecids did to the temple is not one of tolerance. You have to look at the experiences as a whole and not pockets of good relations here and there.
I am looking at the whole picture, not selected events like a particular period of Greek rule. If you focus on the whole you can see htat claims of persecution being ubiquotous are inaccurate. Read the book I noted in an earlier comment. There were far more positive experiences (when their was no political subversiveness) and when it was not positive, it was little different from the fate of other minority groups. Study the record - not Talmudic polemics and modern historical revisionism.
The laws and attitudes are a fuction of theological and ethnic chauvanism more then anything else, although I do not deny the persection occured, nor do I deny that it contributed to racist attitudes. IN my view, it played a smaller role then you seem to be implying. See http://www.talkreason.org/articl...es/
students.cfm for insight into the theological motivation for Chazal's racist attitudes. It is a long read, but the concluding remarks toward the end provde a sufficient picture.
Im looking at the whole picture as well. The polemics exist there for a reason. I don't deny that there were times of great tolerance, but eras such as byzantine were not the best for Jews. And they obviously won't forget what happened under the greeks and Rome. You say it was calm when there was no subversiveness, but that implies that they should be happy with a foreign ruler over them. I can't read the whole talk reason, but from what I see, he brings up alot of stuff from the Talmud, which is not suprising. But why does that chauvanism exist? Would it have existed had the Jews were treated fair?
Now ofcourse again, you can give me times when Jews were high in status in Europe, but what about other times when they were persecuted by the church for reading Talmud and forced to convert. The Jewish Experience is a huge mixed bag. Lots of good experiences but alot of bad ones. In the end, Jews come to a conclusion that the gentiles can't be trusted. One day they are nice, they next the kill you. This is one of the reasons many of the western german orthodox left the "MO" world and headed more to the right.
>> Would it have existed had the Jews were treated fair?
I believe not. Maybe, just maybe the racism would not have been as viscious, but thats it. I thik theology(i.e. superiority of Jews, the need to create social separation to prevent intermarriage, etc) is a much bigger motivator.
>>In the end, Jews come to a conclusion that the gentiles can't be trusted. One day they are nice, they next the kill you. This is one of the reasons many of the western german orthodox left the "MO" world and headed more to the right
I think you are distorting the historical picture. As I stated I think the majority of experiences were either positive or neutral. Chazal, for reasons of polemics and self-identity harp on the negatives. This is a long discussion and one cannot do justice to the topic on blog comments list. All I can say is study with an open mind and without an eye for apologetically defending a particular heinous aspect of Judaism that we all are uncomfortable to acknowledge
>All I can say is study with an open mind and without an eye for apologetically defending a particular heinous aspect of Judaism that we all are uncomfortable to acknowledge.
I have no problem admitting to these problematic aspects in our culture. We both are looking at this with an open mind. You are saying these ideas come from a chauvinistic attitude of superiority. I am saying it exists but from a different experience. If anything this attitude only got more credibility in many peoples eyes that went through the holocuast. They thought they could trust the gentile and in the end, they were shown differently. So I am not going to accept a feeling of either positive or neutral when there has been so much blood spilled throughout the centuries. There were times of positive like for example the golden age and perhaps plenty of time in between of neutrality, but lets not erase all the negative they felt.
for what its worth, I will try to get a hand on that book you recommended.
> Also Rome and Greece, contrary to Jewish polemics, was very tolerant as long as the occupied was not politically subversive
This was discussed almost 2000 years ago, Talmud 33B:
רבי יהודה ורבי יוסי ורבי שמעון ויתיב יהודה בן גרים גבייהו פתח ר' יהודה ואמר כמה נאים מעשיהן של אומה זו תקנו שווקים תקנו גשרים תקנו מרחצאות ר' יוסי שתק נענה רשב"י ואמר כל מה שתקנו לא תקנו אלא לצורך עצמן תקנו שווקין להושיב בהן זונות מרחצאות לעדן בהן עצמן גשרים ליטול מהן מכס
KAN, that article misses something. Of course there was racism in the Talmud, but no more so than in most insular groups at that time in history. And at that time, most humans lived in insular groups. There's a natural tribalism within insular communities and a mistrust and dehumanization of outsiders. That attitude was fairly ubiquitous at that time. The chachamim were hardly unique.
Yehudi Hilchati >>KAN, that article misses something. Of course there was racism in the Talmud, but no more so than in most insular groups at that time in history. And at that time, most humans lived in insular groups. There's a natural tribalism within insular communities and a mistrust and dehumanization of outsiders. That attitude was fairly ubiquitous at that time. The chachamim were hardly unique.---
I don't deny you have a point(although I am not in complete agreement with your historical assessment) BUT we were not discussing whether or not Talmudic racism is excusable, nor whether contextualizing Chazal exculpates them from charges of bigotry relative to similar tribal groups. What we were discussing is whether the tradition’s bigotry is more a function of the theology of Jewish superiority vs non--Jewish inferiority that is rooted Chazal's halachas and attitudes or of persecution against Jews. My point was that although some Jewish bigotry is related to persecution, I believe theology and the attitudes and laws of Chazal are a greater influence with regard to prejudice. In my view, Cheredi Judaism’s intolerable chauvinism emanates from the teachings of well-entrenched theological bias.
>>That attitude was fairly ubiquitous at that time. The chachamim were hardly unique
Yes but the notiion of religious and ehtnic tolerance was well-known in the ancient world (Cyrus in Persia and Ashoko in India)
>I believe theology and the attitudes and laws of Chazal are a greater influence with regard to prejudice.
I do not deny this, and I have seen this with charedi BT's
>In my view, Cheredi Judaism’s intolerable chauvinism emanates from the teachings of well-entrenched theological bias.
This is where we split. I believe perhaps alot of the racism could have subsided somewhat had Jews not felt that the gentiles kept on reminding them that chazal were right all along.
>>This is where we split. I believe perhaps alot of the racism could have subsided somewhat had Jews not felt that the gentiles kept on reminding them that chazal were right all along.
Maybe. I'll have to think about it
My personal opinion as someone who has both Jewish and African American (as well as several other) ancestry I can say that racism, in the manner that is being spoken of is not something that is only found in certain Jewish communities. The same type of racism can be found amongst various groups who have experienced persecution. For example, when I was a kid I remember some African Americans who were racist against Asians, Latinos, and even Africans. I remember a number of times when CERTAIN African Americans were made a number bigoted and racists remarks towards African peoples. Many of these people had never even been to any country in Africa and based their perceptions on things they heard from someone or from an experience with 1 or 2 people from Africa.
One of the roots of racism, in my opinion, is when people choose to make choices about people based on limited or minimal information. It also is when said people have very little or no historical understanding of said people they hold racist comments about. For example, people who are racists towards certain groups of Latinos in most cases have very little understanding of the vastness of Latino culture. They often minmalize Latino culture to Mexico and then go from there. African Americans who have antisemitic concepts about Jews normally base in on the few Jews that they have met or hear about and then go from there. The same can be said about fellow Jews I have met that were racist. Normally, they had little or no first hand experience with the breath of African or African American CULTURES. In many cases they based their prejudices on a small group of people they have encountered without having a knowledge of he bigger picture.
My approach has been to SHOW said people the bigger picture. For example, I once did a presentation at the Spanish Portuguese synagogue in NYC about Jewish migrations into Mali and Senegal, as well as newly formed communities of Igbo Nigerians who have made claims to a Jewish ancestry. At the presentation there was a mix of Sephardim, Ethiopian Israelis, Ashkenazim, Hebrew Israelites, Black Jews, etc. and there were a lot of barriers that were broken down. The whole reason I wanted to the presentation.
So my point is that racism, in one form or another, has always been a part of the human experience. If we feel that as Jews this should not exist amongst our people then there are things that we have to do to bring various sides to the table. That is my philosophy. Instead of simply realizing there is an issue I prefer to do something about it.
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