The problem is-how does one completely separate oneself from all halachic decision making and torah scholarship coming from the charedi world. Where does it stop? Do you not use the mossad harav kook rishonim, most of whom were edited by charedim? Do you take no interest in psakim by any charedi poskim ever, even where thye are well known-does the RZ rabbinate have to autonomosly regenerate the entire body of modern psak, most of which has been constructed by charedi rabbonim? When chronologically are traditional rabbinic authorities considered charedi? Reb Moshe? The Chazon Ish? The Chasam Sofer? The problem is that this is impossible. You can't disregard the fact that the charedim have most of the big talmidei chachomim, most of the traditional torah scholarship etc.
He didn't say "and Torah scholarship."
It may not be as easy as it is for the Charedim to be completely disengaged from the halakhic decisions of Modern Orthodox or RZ posekim, but it's doable.
He also didn't say "take no interest in." There are Orthodox rabbis, some of whom even paskan, who take an interest in teshuvos emanating from the Conservative RA, but those teshuvos play no role in their psak halakhah (at least not overtly!) nor in the lives of their communities.
It's not about ignoring the Chasam Sofer et al. - everyone already does that anyway, for the issues concerning the divisions between the modern and non modern Orthodoxies. It's about ignoring posekim who have nothing to say about non Chareidi Orthodox life, but have things to say about practical life. This afternoon I passed a billboard advertising a pesak by the Chazon Ish, the Steipler Gaon, reiterated by his son, and - it claimed - supported by all the gedolim of this generation, that it is always forbidden to shave with an electric shaver. The same way I can see that and shrug and think "that has nothing to do with me,"* or the same way Chareidim can look at halakhic discussions about Yom Ha-atzmaut, that's presumably what Shapiro is calling for MO and RZ rabbanim to do.
*I could, of course, engage it as an intellectual exercise. But who are we kidding? Do you think I can even pretend that such a decision has any pertinence to my life?
The judges in that case took the courageous stand that they knew would cost them, to paskin as they saw right. They fulfilled the Torah commandment to "not fear any man". I do not know exactly what procedural errors they found but we should respect that they did what they thought was right at great personal cost and risk of censure and even dismissal.
Actually, the reverse is the case. Had they not followed the Rav Elyashiv-haredi line, that would have led to great personal cost, much more than what is going on at present. Their prestige is raised in the haredi world every time the non-haredim attack them.
Avakesh, as courageous as they are is as corageous as Rackman and his Bet Din are. Fear no man is great, but it is not intrinsically a sign of merit. Furthermore, these dayanim are not lonely guys, as they enjoy the moral and ideological support from the Chareidi velt. In your description they're like GW Bush I who claimed to be one lonely little guy facing down the big, bad Israel lobby.
Their yeshivot could not survive without our money. Why do we fund these places when they are turning out such products? And of course haredim would never contribute to our schools. We let haredi rabbis speak in our shuls, we even have haredi kollels in our shuls, yet they would never let our rabbis speak in their shuls? How long are we supposed to be treated like that?
Listen, I can be as pragmatic as the next guy about hishtadlus but doesn't the chorus that MO should "cut off the purse strings" to Chareidi Yeshivas and Kollels" smack a little of "בכח ידי עשיתי"?
Not really. No one is saying that they'll therefore choke, but that why should they thrive on our dime; or why should they thrive on Hashem's largesse via the vehicle of our dime, if you will. Let them thrive on Hashem's largesse via the vehicle of their own dime, or no one's dime.
Shapiro is right, of course. Poshut.
What I never understood is why the Israeli government has consistently given in to the charedime every time. The charedim have (legitimately-in my opinion)tried to screw every last penny out of the state. I know the political system means that the charedim are needed for building up coalitions etc. But come on! The secular parties should have told the charedim to get lost. Another thing I don't understand is why they haven't come to a solution with regards to the army. As Shachar Ilan of Haaretz (no charedi sympathiser) realised a few years ago-you can't make people go to the army when they won't go. The state has two options-either keep the present arrangement and let the charedim bankrupt the country in the next few decades. Or exempt them from the army completely, meaning it will be completely legal for them to work with no strings attached. Within a few years a large percentage of charedim will go out to work (not yeshiva bochurim, but young married guys). Since the charedim don't got to the army anyway-the state has very little to loose from impleting this and a heck of a lot to loose by not doing it. Although many will have moral issues with this, anyone familiar with the situation knows that there is no viable alternative. Mainstream charedi yeshiva bochurim will never go to the army en masse-and they won't even do a year of civil service-as soon as the powers that be realise this and legislate accordingly, Israel will begin to solve its charedi problem.
>What I never understood is why the Israeli government has consistently given in to the charedime every time.
Because they need a coalition.
Absolutely. The Chareidi parties have absolutely zero political platform, apart for Chareidi interests. There can be no Israeli government that they are unable to join so long as the government supports Chareidi interests. There are no other political parties like it in Israel. So in exchange for what they want ("Chief Rabbinate? Sure, why not?") they will make any government.
This is (ostensibly) a question of Halacha - not politics. I would like to see a clear Halachic responsa explaining the difficulties mentioned in relation to the RZ conversions and the RZ rabbis responses to this. This type of battle needs to be fought by the Dayyanim - not in the pages of the Jewish Week.
It will be fought on the pages of the Jewish Week too. Such is the reality of contemporary life. However this impacts a halakhic battle, and however much these battles will have to adjust to the contemporary reality, it is what it is. If the dayyanim can't tune out the chattering classes (and I bet they can't) they'll have to roll with it and learn how to adjust.
The Charedim have to become the blue-collar working class of Israel. They have to become the goyim of the Jewish state.
ANON:
ANON:
"The Chareidi parties have absolutely zero political platform, apart for Chareidi interests. There can be no Israeli government that they are unable to join so long as the government supports Chareidi interests. There are no other political parties like it in Israel."
not necessarily true. mafdal was able to find its way into every government until the 1990s (when it became a settlers' party)
ANON:
"And of course haredim would never contribute to our schools."
i sympathize with your entire comment, particularly this point. last week the rav in my shul gave a drasha and cited a story about rav aron kotler. his 2 big causes were lakewood and chinuch atzmai (the agudah schools in israel). one day he went to the office of a prominent MO jew to collect $ for chinuch atzmai. the MO refused to give him, explaining that he was a zionist and did not support agudah. but he respected rav kotler and didn't want him to leave empty-handed, so he wrote him a check for lakewood. rav kotler refused to take it, because he come with collecting for chinuch atzmai in mind. the MO was so impressed with rav kotler's integrity that in the end he gave him a second check for chinuch atzmai. (i am leaving out the tone of the drasha which put down the MO, but this is not the first time he has used the MO-RW foil in such a manner in a drasha.)
so after davening i asked him how successful i would be if i went to rav kotler's students to collect $ for the yeshivah of flatbush.
to cast a different light here: are the mo vis a vis the hareidim not in the same position conservatives are vis a vis the mo?
fred:
i was actually thinking along similar lines, except not btw MO and C, but rather within MO itself. mainstream MO complains about being sidelined by RW but then sidelines LWMO (e.g. chovevei)
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