Whenever I have a problem with a word in the Gemara, I discuss it with my friendly local Assyrians. It is hit or miss, but sometimes it can be helpful. In any case, here are the Assyrian names for the months. http://www.assyrianenterprise.co...nths/
Months.htm
You'll notice that they avoid the issue by naming several months Qamaya and Kharaya, i.e., first and last.
Interesting. Thanks for linking to that picture.
What do you mean, though, about them avoiding the issue?
I have almost never heard anyone speak (in conversation) of this month as chodesh marchesvan but I have NEVER heard this month referred to as anything other than marcheshvan in rosh chodesh bentching.
>I have NEVER heard this month referred to as anything other than marcheshvan in rosh chodesh bentching.
You'd think that.
Marhheshvan = Yerahh Bul
The nicest vort I've heard about the name Marcheshvan was a chassidic vort that associates it with the expression שפתותיו רוחשות עמו בקבר.
In other words, we have prayed so much during the month of Tishrei that our mouths continue to move during Marcheshvan.
That's such a lovely idea that it's a shame it isn't technically true.
It isn't a true etymology, but it can be a true thing to aspire too.
I always wondered what the Akkadian names were. Thanks!
However, regarding the etymology of argaman, there is another opinion as to its origin:
Argaman is a hebrew word derived from the akkadian word argamannu meaning purple. Argamannu itself contains a synthesis of two sanskrit adjectives for red, (i.e., two kinds of red) ragamen and ragavan.
Thanks, Liorah. Whatever the origin, it is indeed true that its Aramaic form is argvana!
Talmudists or people who actually read Daniel
LOL
During the so-called First Exile the Jewish months assumed foreign names. This is best illustrated in the books Ezra and Esther, where the twelfth month is called adar
as a good talmudist, you have conveniently not mentioned Zech chs 1 and 7 which have names and numerical correspondences as well (funny that Hagai of the same time doesnt have such correspondeces). Ive always wondered why the Talmud in ch 1 of RH in its discussion of Persian kings doesnt make use of the correspondences in Zec 7 (i think it does talk of Zec 1) as opposed to the verses in Neh which name a month by name but not by numerical correspondence (only correspondence to the king's reign). personally, i wouldve thought the gemara's case could be made stronger with such recourse.
I have NEVER heard this month referred to as anything other than marcheshvan in rosh chodesh bentching.
i have. the idea is that we dont want to bless ourselves with "bitterness".
S wrote: Whatever the origin, it is indeed true that its Aramaic form is argvana!
Argvana would correlate to the sankrit adjective ragavan for a specific "kind" of color of red (where red is generically called raga).
Fred,
Your link in the last footnote appears to be broken.
When I said that they avoid the issue, I meant that I found it strange that they would, in two cases, refer to consecutive months as "Month X the first" and "Month X the last", and specifically do so in what ought to be Cheshvan.
S.: You won't believe this. There was talk this AM in Israel about the Knesset changing the month from MarCheshvan to Cheshvan. Will try to have some links on it as soon as I can corroborate it.
(Sounds only a bit fishy, since why would the KNESSET need to even get involved in such a decision? If anything, it would be the "Hebrew Academy for Language" that's the "official" standard for modern Hebrew....)
Thanks for writing the post I meant to write - but didn't - and writing it better!
there was an article I read recently (not a recent article) that suggested that the Akkadian was actually a combination of two babylonian gods' names, arech and shamna, since the other names of the months were also derivative of god names, it didn't make sense that only Marcheshvan was a numeric name. Shamna, if I recall, was the equivalent of Hermes, and Arech/Verech was a moon god. But I don't remember.
Lakewood Guy-I think you never heard of it referred to as Heshvan because you are in Lakewood. I find it funny though - it seems like naming it Heshvan is a way to reject the religious garb- but they only view it that way because they believed the vort.
All becomes quite an issue for gittin, no?
>All becomes quite an issue for gittin, no
I would imagine that Marcheshvan is still on the books.
Regarding BenBayis' reference to a chassidishe vort, it is brought in the Likutei Yehudah, a Gerer sefer on Chumash.
Two things:
1. There is an interchange between medial /m/ and medial /w/ within Akkadian as well: Old Akkadian medial /w/ becomes Middle Akkadian medial /m/;
2. The Aramaic root for "sit, dwell" is actually יתב and מתיבתא is formed off a participle.
What?! You mean the " Ani lidodi lidodi li" vort for the month of Elul is darshening the name of some Akkadian month?
חס ושלום
Thanks for this interesting post.
Where can I find B. Barry Levy's article? I didn't see it in RAMBI, Prof. Levy's uni page, or Google in general.
TIA,
Uri
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