Perhaps they didn't want to translate it in order not to offend R' Steinzaltz and his supporters?
Perhaps they thought that downplaying any machlokes as much as possible was the proper course of action.
At least they printed the full Hebrew text.
Those eit laasot's seem to have a habit of becoming permanent.
GCT
The funny thing is that Artscroll's translation permits קלי הדעת like me to get their hands on the Talmud even more easily. Is this what R. Elyashiv wants?
Remind me...wasn't there a similar issue with the septuagint. Wsn't the same pasuk quoted? Am I dreaming?
Also doesn't the yeshiva world frown on using and becoming dependent on the Schottenstein translations?
I heard just that from someone who experienced it.
Here's a story about someone trying to "kick his habit" on relying on Artscroll:
http://www.kehilla.org.il/
glimps...erryAronoff.htm
Very interesting...
The tactic of leaving Hebrew text untranslated has not been confined to ArtScroll. This was one of the stocks in trade of the old Conservative Silverman siddur. It was a way to "conserve" traditional texts without making worshippers worry their pretty little heads about concepts that might have struck them as problematic or archaic. I am thinking in particular about the expurgated translation of Tehillim 49, said in a house of mourning.
On the other hand, I'm also reminded of a Hebrew broadside from years ago attacking "giyus nashim," the drafting of women into the Israeli army. Most of it was translated into English, except for a phrase about women being "kalot da'at," which might be rendered as "flighty" or "airheads."
I am more inclined to believe that the reason Artscroll left it untranslated was to avoid scaring off a large portion of it's market share who do not have a problem with Steinsaltz and who would read Rav Elyashiv's letter as fanatical.
Just a question, by what measure did Rav Elyashiv measure the quality of other translations? If I remember correctly, he does not read English, and is certainly not sufficiently proficient to judge the nuances of two or more different translations.
Perhaps he is not being so "mean" about the other translations, rather is implying that since other translations exist one from an "approved" source is merited?
He judged the translators, not the translations, per se.
That said, of course this is an issue of approved translations even apart from the issue of whether or not other translators are competent.
WTF is לַיקוָק
Hebrew form of la-YKVK.
a way to euphemize the Divine Name that appears in the verse, so that if soomeone prints out the post, it won't be treated disrespectfully (tossed out, fall on the ground, etc.)
> Hebrew form of la-YKVK
Duh! I was having a little fun with ba'al hablog, and you went and ruined it with your serious reply (which isn't really serious, it's hysterically funny, even funnier if S. would have written Ha-Shem) ;-)
I don't know. It seems to me that even if I were to want to employ a term of opprobium toward either R. Steinzaltz or Professor Neusner kalut rosh (lightheaded, flighty, not serious) is hardly the one I'd pick. Presumably any objection Rav Eliashiv has to these scholars is to their hashkafa, not their intelligence or seriousness. He has the vocabulary to say what he means, if that were it.
There is a strong opposition within Israeli Chareidi community to Artscroll Talmud ranslation. As I recall R. Shach was opposed to it initially and it was only a very strong action by R. Hutner that made him not come out with a psak against it.
The strong action was by Rav Gifter. If I'm not mistaken, Rav Hutner was in the olam ho'emes before ArtScroll started translating the Talmud.
I'm confused why this is a big deal.
There is a reason why frum Jews who spoke English in the 1800's and early 1900's didn't translate the gemara. Even though it was possible, it was inappropriate. The Posek is saying that in the truly difficult time we live in: where most English-speaking Jews are "liberals" yemach shemam v'zichram, and Zionist (also, mostly liberal) and therefore illiterate in basic gemara rashi, there is a justification for creating an eludication of the gemara.
And don't for a second suggest that the liberals, yemach shemam v'zichram who created the Soncino and Shteinsaltz are not at least kalei hadat. (take a look, for example, at this idiot project by Shteinsaltz http://www.guardian.co.uk/commen...099090,00.html)
As several posters have noted, ''kalei daat'' does not mean ''lightweights'' but ''frivolous,'' or in this context ''insufficiently respectful.'' ''Poshtin yadan'' means here ''to manhandle.'' The allusion is clearly to the Steinsaltz Talmud, and I think Rav Elyashiv Rav Steinsaltz's book on Biblical figures in mind.
B:
Frum Jews who spoke English in the 18th/19th centuries were few and far between, not a sufficient market for an English talmud translation. Now German-speaking frum Jews is another thing - after Mendelssohn's Chumash got everyone used to the idea of sifrei kodesh in vernacular, there was a market for more, so Goldschmidt translated (part of) the Talmud into German in the late 19th century - early 20th century.
Yes, Rodkinson's English Talmud also came out in the same period, but it was not so much a translation as an adaptation, largely composed to refute antisemites rather than to help English-speaking Jews. As a translation, it's terrible. Goldschmidt, however, is supposed to be quite scholarly. Not reading German, I can't tell firsthand.
What is B. talking about??? Bad enough his nasty insinuations about Rabbi Steinsaltz. But as for the Soncino Talmud, about which B. evidently knows absolutely nothing at all: the main Editor of the Soncino Talmud was Rabbi Dr. Isadore Epstein, the exceptionally learned, pious, and strictly Orthodox Principal of Jews College. To refer to him as a liberal, as a kal daat, and-- what is worse-- to append ''Yemach
Shemo'' to him is absolutely disgusting and a bizzui talmid hakham of the highest (or is it lowest?) order. B. should wash his filthy mouth out with soap and go to the grave of Rabbi Epstein and beg and grovel for mehilah.
When I first read R Elyashav's text I assumed he was referring to Random House(a gentile publishing house that may likely be characterized as kalei hadaas haposhtim yadaom b'kedushas hatalmud rather than an insult directed at R Steinsaltz work itself) who translated R Steinsaltz' work rather than R Steinsaltz himself whose work is also an "elucidation" rather than a literal translation. ArtScroll work came out shortly after Random House began to print the Steinsaltz work. I beleive the popularity of the ArtScroo/Schottenstein work resulted in Random House abandoning their project.
I guess Rav Elyashiv would prefer a gentile publishing house like Bomberg to Random House.
Good pickup. Whether he was referring to R. Steinzaltz or Soncino, what RE said was very rude, irresponsible, and he will pay for it in the future. Does he have any idea at all who even wrote the Soncino, that he could call them "kallei hadas"? Of course not. Perhaps someone told him - though I highly doubt even this - the chief editor's name was Isadore, and this strange English name was enough to passul the whole shas. Sickening. RE gets far too much undeserved respect from people who really know nothing about him.
I think it's pretty clear that the more sensible people in the Artscroll/Agudah world know that that their own self-proclaimed Gedoilim not infrequently make such indefnsible statements. Now they cannot criticize their Gedoilim, b/c to do so would run afoul of the infallible status they have attached to them. They thus distance themselves in this manner, or by quietly ignoring it, or just not publicizing it. In effect, they give an embarassed shrug, smile sheepishly to the world, and hope to wordlessly convey, "Yes it's rude, and yes it makes no sense, but what can you do?".
Just abother bit of uneducated fanatical babbling from the supposed Godol of the World. That's the big problem with Charedi life, isnt it? The more fights you stir up, the bigger the Godol you are considered. Kol Hameitzar liyisrael na'aseh rosh.
Inmates running the asylum, indeed.
Shmuel, based on the fact that they covered four masechtot in twenty-one volumes, I don't think Random House ever really planned to do more than that. (Or they wouldn't have, in any event.) Still, Artscroll was probably worried, the fact that Nosson Scherman uses a (Hebrew) Steinsaltz himself notwithstanding.
The Hebrew set is almost done, b'h. Three masechtot or so left to go.
Nachum
I'm not sure I get your point. Why was AS worried?
It seems that Random House saw that sales were not going to be as robust as they had hoped for and thus scraped the project.
It makes imminently more sense that R Eliyashav was directing himself toward Random House which started their translation around (probably a bit prior to)the same time as AS did, rather than against R Steinsaltz per se, whose work had been in progress since the 60s
Worried because of competition, as any business would, even though their fears were probably unfounded.
>>As I recall R. Shach was opposed to it initially and it was only a very strong action by R. Hutner that made him not come out with a psak against it.
I believe that was the Otzar Mefarshei Hatalmud that R. Hutner supported and R. Shach didn't (until he heard that R. Hutner did).
>>The Posek is saying that in the truly difficult time we live in: where most English-speaking Jews are "liberals" yemach shemam v'zichram,
Hey B,
Ever try to get help for that anger and hate problem?
"put their hands on the holiness of the Talmud and the Oral Law" i think your rendition does not capture the full import of poshtim yadam, which conveys a sense of trespass on holy ground, violation of sacred precincts. the insult (to me and others) is more vivid than your presentation.
You're right. I should have translated it with more care (and less literalism).
The image of the haskama isn't showing up and it looks like it's because "The bandwidth or page view limit for this site has been exceeded and the page cannot be viewed at this time. Once the site is below the limit, it will once again begin serving as normal."
Thought you might be interested in http://bayimg.com. You can host images quickly without making an account, and these guys run the world's biggest bittorrent tracker (the pirate bay) so I don't think bandwidth is an issue (although I wouldn't have thought so with google either).
Kalai das, (as mentioned) does not imply lightwight, rather it implies, feeble mindedness, a lack of seriousness and Achrayous. Rabbi Eliyashev's evaluation is naturaly on the translators themselves, not on the basis of any particular difference on any specific commentary. His objection is based on the supposed lack of appreciation of the real worth and holiness of the Talmud (into a merely academic project perhaps).
This would accord well with Steinzaltz, who Rav Shach condemned primarily for issues not directly related to the accuracy of the text It would appear that Rav Eliashev is endorsing Rav Shach's evaluation, that due to the Shinuy of the Tzuras hadaf, the simplification of Talmud study among the other complaints (such as deciding which commentary to use) are aspects of light-headedness (lack of appropriete seriousness/respect) with regards to the Talmud,thus the refrences to translaters who don't know the value of the Talmud.
It could be the the need that this created for a "kosher" translation, is the return the appropriate respect and standing that the Talmud has to its "former glory".
Apart from the translations of kaley rosh and poshet yad, I would suggest that a better translation of poretz in the phrase dor poretz would be "riotous" or even "promiscuous." In other words, the generation is "running riot" "(in)to all manner of different translations" etc.
Doesn't affect MFM's point.
Dan Klein, I agree. And Gates of Prayer does the same. It's significant that even when so much of the Hebrew has been stripped away entirely, there is still a need for "cosmetic" translation. Anyone who translates is going to take the opportunity to work a little spin.
B-I think you mean da'as, not dat. Be careful or people may think you're illiterate.
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