Jews get confused too, sometimes. Have you never heard someone refer to a כסדר yeshiva?
Also, I find the vocalization interesting. Usually, foreign correspondents will pronounce Israeli place or proper names using standard Israeli vowel sounds, including pronouncing צֵירֵי as if it were סֶגוֹל. Yet when it comes to people called אֵהוּד, they often seem to do it Ashkenazi-style, saying it “Ay-hood”.
many of my friends who didn't grow up with a lot of Hebrew pronounce "minhag" as "*minhhag" even though on an intellectual level they know better
British announcers sometimes overdo it in an attempt to sound authentic. Years ago Edwin Newman, in one of his books on language, noted that he had heard Brits refer to Isaac Stern and Leonard Bernstein as "Eezak Shtairn" and "Layonard Bairnshtyne."
Of course, neither of these was flat-out wrong, like "Echud." It also used to annoy me intensely when newscasters spoke of "Golda My-ear."
Reminds me of the "Paul Volfovitch" thing a few years back (BBC would refer to him that way, leading many to suspect that they were trying to paint Paul Wolfowitz, NeoCon extraordinaire, in as Jewish a fashion as possible. But like you said, they try for authenticity and they do it by making assumptions that often aren't valid. Jewish Americans don't generally pronounce their names that Old World way, any more than Italian Americans or German Americans do.
The BBC used to have a big guide to pronouncing foreign names. I think they still have it, so I don't know why they make this mistake.
They tend to pronounce 'Tzippy' as 'Zippy', rather unfortunate considering there was a well-known children's TV programme in the UK with a character called Zippy (he had a zip for a mouth).
>The BBC used to have a big guide to pronouncing foreign names. I think they still have it, so I don't know why they make this mistake.
It seems to me that it's because these particular correspondents have not seen (or paid attention to) the name in Hebrew, and were thrown off by it's English spelling, which seems to imply ח (that is, a Middle Eastern sound) to a lot of people. Resh Lakish gave a good example of how even Jews that ostensibly have some Hebrew can get thrown off. Steg gave another example, although I personally have never heard anyone say 'מנחג,' but I have heard Resh Lakish's example.
While visiting Washington DC, I went on a tour of the Pentagon. The Marine tour guide mention (then) Sec. of Defense, William CO-hen (not sure if I got that right, he pronounced it like my wife and daughters would pronounce כהן ;) ).I don't know if that was an attempt on the part of the Marine to make it sound more authentic or if that's actually what the former SecDef calls himself. I would imagine it was probably the latter given that he would presumably be aware of the correct pronunciation of his employer's name.
That could be. Or maybe he didn't know how "Cohen" is usually pronounced in America, not being familiar with the name, and just guessed?
Daniel,
They tend to pronounce 'Tzippy' as 'Zippy'
LOL, I have noticed the same thing. I wish all Israeli politicians (and R’ Ovadia) came with such a zip. If Livni is Zippy, then Olmert is Bungle.
The BBC used to have a big guide to pronouncing foreign names.
Not just a guide, they maintain an entire unit staffed by linguists for the purpose of correct pronunciation – not just of foreign names, but of Britain’s wealth of incredibly strange and non-phonetic place names. (Here is the unit website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioni...ery/pron.shtml;
they even have a blog: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theed...nciation_unit/)
.
Jewish Americans don't generally pronounce their names that Old World way, any more than Italian Americans or German Americans do.
Good point. Although Jewish Americans (and other ethnic Americans) were perhaps less likely to dump their old-world names entirely than immigrants to other countries (such as Britain), they tended to make them phonetic, either by changing the spelling to match American pronunciation (e.g., like the McLeods who became McClouds) or by changing the pronunciation to match the spelling (like Wolfowitz, or the McKays who pronounce their name to rhyme with “day” rather than “sky,” as it was in Scotland.)
Reminds me of the "Paul Volfovitch" thing a few years back
Incidentally, Menahem Begin's (patronymic) middle name was "Wolfowitz" (pronounced European-style, obviously) -- at times I wondered if that was a subtle reference. Then again, maybe not.
"Steg gave another example, although I personally have never heard anyone say 'מנחג,' but I have heard Resh Lakish's example."
Interesting. Whenever someone does that I assume they're Russian.
I hear "minhhag" all the time from people who don't know Hebrew. These are native-born Yanks, probably getting interference from "Minhhah."
One of my favorite things about BB"C news readers is that they sometimes seem to try to sound more American than us Americans. "Nicaragua" with the middle syllable being pronounced like "rag," "Jack TCHEER-ack." (I personally use "TCHAY-bad" when I get the opportunity.)
And remember how they used to talk about "Nett'n-yahu"? This wasn't just the BB"C.
FYI, here is a picture of Zippy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ima...Image:
Zippy.jpg
Also, in my previous comment I contaminated URLs with punctuation; here they are:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioni....ery/
pron.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theed....nciation_unit/
Speaking of Menachem Begin, some of you may remember the dustup that Time Magazine stirred when it introduced the name to its readers (who presumably would have thought it sounded like the English word "begin") by helpfully pointing out, "Rhymes with Fagin." This provoked letters reminding us that Time rhymed with "slime."
I don't remember it, but my parents cancelled their subscription to Time when that happened. As for the connection itself, it is ironic as well as impudent, since in MIH there is no tsere, so Begin most certainly does not rhyme with Fagin.
You forgot to note that most Israelis pronounce Ehudh; "Eud", as they don't pronounce the he at all.
"Of the two letters already mentioned, one (the ה) is more or less pronounced just the same as the H is in English"
only at the beginning of a syllable i think. does english have voiced h to close a syllable? that is a lot more difficult to do if it's not a native sound for you:
http://agmk.blogspot.com/2008/
05...unce.html#links
BAAL DEVARIM
"Whenever someone does that I assume they're Russian."
i think my son is pretty much over it, but he used to pronounce his his english "h" as ח. i was never sure if was due to his speech issues or his exposure to russian.
> You forgot to note that most Israelis pronounce Ehudh; "Eud", as they don't pronounce the he at all.
An excellent point.
I once went to a dumb display at the Jewish museum which stated that the first letter of Chayim is a he.
Israelis also pronounce his last name "Ulmert" instead of Olmert....
I had a teacher who referred to Hatzolah Volunteer Corps as Hatzlacha. We'd think of ways to make her use the word in class as often as we could finesse it; when you're in 12th grade, mistakes like that make you laugh uproariously.
I've heard people say "chol chamoed"
I think it's more a problem of not everyone knowing how to read Hebrew script and relying on Romanized Hebrew. Depending who is doing the Romanizing, the same word may be spelled with an H, CH or KH. This lack of consistancy causes Westerners to try to guess when to use the sound "H" and when to use "CH/KH".
Through German, Dutch and the various Celtic languages, most Westerners are totally familiar with the "throat-clearing" sounds of words like "loch" even though English lost them centuries ago. Also, for your one commentor's erudition, the Anglicization of MacLeod into McCloud is not phonetic. MacLeod is itself an Anglicization of MacLeňid which is pronounced more like "machk lawj" better rendered phonetically as MacLodge in English. Common mistake for those who don't speak Ghŕidhlig.
Not to worry, it's also a common misconception to those who think all Westerners speak English, and only English, that we don't understand that that sound is part of language and not a chicken bone that got caught in the speaker's throat. Amazingly, we Europeans even understand that the Bushmen don't have their mouths full of pop-rock candies, that popping sound IS speech! We're quite clever and make nice pets.
"most Westerners are totally familiar with the "throat-clearing" sounds of words like "loch" even though English lost them centuries ago"
In my experience most non-Jewish English speakers have difficulty with the sound(s).
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