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Well, I graduated from high school in 1956. "Scumbag" had only ONE meaning back then. I still say: "Hmmmmmm...." |
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I had a similar experience. SCUMBAG didn't bother me, but based on Harris's comment, I found the same article. It is interesting that the Times didn't publish the word in 1998 and now it has. I'd bet there's not much more to it than the fact that Will didn't find it objectionable. It could have been avoided -- e.g., SCRIBE/S/D, OCTOBER, ICHABOD, ACROBAT et al. all would have fit, not to say the fill would have been an improvement. But as the article points out, it's a word that's been around a long time and not in the top tier of offensive terms. It doesn't go on to list what's in the top tier, but I wonder where SANTORUM would place. That made an appearance in the most recent Tausig and could have been clued as the Pennsylvania senator and no one would have blinked. But clued as ["Savage Love" coinage], I found the "frothy mix..." definition (you can Google the rest) and for me it was a good laugh. Other may have been offended. But the Savage column and the crossword both run in the Village Voice and other alternative papers, so I think it's a perfect clue for that audience. |
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Well, SCUMBAG hit me right away and I am exactly Will's age. (Okay, a month younger). If that is now OK I have a whole list of words that would have gotten him thrown out of Margaret Farrar's office that can now be added to the Cruciverb lexicon. |
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IMHO, 'Scumbag' is similar to a word like 'slimeball,' and I personally see no real problem with it, except that it is a rather ugly word. |
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I didn't google it before reading this, but RHUD lists it as vulgar, so I was surprised to see it. I think of the word as referring to the "used" state, so my own reaction is something beyond "asshole", contrary to RHUD's characterization. (I remember having that same reaction in 1971 when a friend of a college roommate referred to his girlfriend by that term. As you can tell, it was memorable.) |
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There's clearly an age cutoff. I'm on the older side of it too, and the cringe factor will never go away. But younger people seem not to know the vulgar sense and hear "scumbag" and "dirtbag" pretty much the same. This same generation gap would be reflected in reaction to "scum," I suspect. When the "s" was dropped (during the '70s I guess), the four-letter word lost its impact. |
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When I typed it in, I raised my eyebrows because it seemed sort of a coarse word. But I'd put it in the same category as "slimeball" -- insulting, yes, but not actually vulgar. |
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Like Martin I can't get used to scumbag being in the common vernacular. I'm 61 years old and I know that if my dad heard me use that word I'd get the "luchshen Strap" (I bet that brings back memories for a lot of the older ethnic people here). I still can't get used to my children, both one year on either side of 30, using the term "xyz sucks". That would of also gotten me the back of dad's hand. |
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I remember hearing the "condom" usage at summer camp around 1965. RHUD does not show a connection between "scum" and "cum" and the latter is listed as a variant spelling of "come" (the noun). The verb is listed only as "come". Scum is not listed with a sense meaning "semen" but I remember that sense from junior high. |
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Scumbag doesn't bother me. It was used as a term of endearment in my old neighborhood. What DOES bother me however is: |
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Lempel also has today's USA TODAY puzzle, but without a scumbag. |
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Were cheap condoms known a dimebags in the 1950's? Harris? |
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The Urban Dictionary lists 28 used-submitted definitions for scum; only two mention semen. For scumbag, three of 12 definitions invoke (used) condoms. |
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OK, you've all driven me out of the woodwork. I am probably 100% out of the puzzle loop. I've never talked to another soul who constructs crosswords, my husband (yes, I'm a she) has probably never done one in his life, and I only recently started reading the forum. I never even saw the NYT daily puzzles until this January when I finally broke down and let my son give me the online subscription. |
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Thanks for dropping by, Lynn! In a few decades, I think "scumbag" will be considered as innocuous as "dirtball" to everyone except the old people who remember the other connotation. Language evolves, slang evolves... |
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BTW, I didn't mean to imply that the "scum" morphed to "cum" based primarily on etymology. I think it was the convergence of that along with the much older verb "to come." But I can say with assurance that in my day for learning such things (late fifties / early sixties) and in my locale (NYC and suburbs), "come" was a verb and "scum" was semen. |
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Hey Lynn, |
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FWIW, the OED lists the following first citations: |
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I'm still in my forties (barely) and the two senses I associate with "scum" are in the expressions "pond scum" and "scum of the earth." So maybe it is a generational thing, which may explain why the Times didn't publish "scumbag" in 1998. An editor with another sense of the word, perhaps. |
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And here I thought the hmmmm had to do with a puzzle theme that touched on nuclear war. I am 45 and had no idea of the more vulgar meaning of "scumbag". Fascinating. |
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Age 62. Huge cringe. No offense, just a major cringe. |
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I'm 53, and the "condom" meaning was new to me (though it makes perfect sense); same for my 50 year-old wife. Thus its use in the puzzle didn't freak me out in the slightest. |
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I am 57 and had no idea. It reminds me of being twelve and literally seeing a scumbag on the street as my 12-year-old almost equally naive buddy and I walked down the street. I didn't know what it was and he supposedly did. This prompted the following conversation: |
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Just adding to the survey, I'm 47 and know my share of vulgar slang, but I had no idea about the origins of the word SCUMBAG. Who said crosswords aren't educational :-) ! |
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Does this mean we can't use the word douchebag either? |
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45, going on 46...and I did a major cringe on SCUMBAG. Very surprised to see it in the NYT. I had no idea of its etymology (or its connection to a condom), but it just evoked a visceral reaction to me when I saw it. |
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Popeye, my grandmother recently used the word douchebag. However, she was talking about an item available at drugstores. I don't think anything with a douche connotation will end up in a crossword anytime soon—unless it's French, in which case the word merely means "shower." |
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Oh, what the hell...why not jump in with yet another comment? I'm 67 and not a bit offended by the use of "scumbag" in this context. And I agree that its original intent was to describe a condom (or "rubber" as my crowd's street lexicon had it back in the 50s) |
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Re douchebag: |
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Oops, that last comment was from me. Didn't know I could post anonymously. |
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Was surprised but not grossed out by scumbag. This reminds me of when BROWN NOSE was an answer a while back. I never knew its derivation was um, not esactly hygenic. |
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argh, not jbo, exactly I meant |
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If Will sees how much attention SCUMBAG got here we may see more similar clues. |
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Reconstructing my cringe, I realize the implication of "scumbag" to me is that it's a USED condom |
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Totally shocked! |
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Just to add another data point to the survey: the only connotation scum has for me is related to ponds. I never heard scumbag=used condom before (age: 31). As a side note, I used to play a card game called Scum with friends in college; I learned later that it's more commonly called Asshole--Scum was the less-vulgar variant. |
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Hmmmm ... |
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What on earth was the original, and apparently offensive, meaning of "dirtball"? |
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When I mentioned this incident to my wife, her only reaction was that "scoundrel" was an imprecise synonym. She pointed out that you have to be really offensively and pervasively immoral to be called a scumbag; a closer synonym would be "sleazeball." |
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Okay, I do admit that I did not know the original meaning of scumbag. As with many other words in our language and in other languages meanings change over time. The current use of the word no longer has any connection to condoms. Surely there are more important things happening in the world to worry about than a crossword puzzle in the New York times! How about the increasing national debt that both Democrats and Republicans have allowed to happen? How about the number of homeless in our country? How about the sick and starving children around the world? Now those are REAL topics people should be outraged about! |
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Russell: |
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you people have got to be kidding... the word "scumbag" in the modern vernacular, while not a "nice" word, does not have nearly the meaning it did when it was first used...people need to get over the PC niceties of not wanting to offend, even when the target itself is offensive, and not be afraid to call a "scumbag" a "scumbag"...by the way, Owen...don't EVEN go there with trying to stick that one on Bush... at least he soes not have to try to hide his "scumbags" in the Oval Office waste baskets... |
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