Wednesday: what a great day for puzzles!
JJF | 01.29.08 - 10:40 pm | #

Peter Collins is a fiend!

How did you do this in less than 5 minutes...I stand in awe. 45 minutes for me and I have never heard or roe for doe, but it had to be and my dictionary confirmed it. ONEIDIAR, also new to me. I was sure a rebus was at play and even with the right entries I was parsing it ONE IDAR. I haven't read your blog, but here I go.
PhillySolver | 01.29.08 - 11:05 pm | #

Back to say it took so long for me to do this that I didn't see the half dozen eggs in the rest of the puzzle. That cleverness makes this a nominee for best construction. Well done, you fiend.
PhillySolver | 01.29.08 - 11:09 pm | #

As always, I'm astounded by your time. I'm sure I was somewhere around 15 minutes.

It definitely is against the law to smoke in a stairwell, but I don't think it's against the law to...well, never mind. Rail against them all you want! You'll always have my support.

It's late and I must be off to bed, so the Sun will have to wait until tomorrow.
Linda G | Homepage | 01.29.08 - 11:31 pm | #

Mmm, eggs. Gotta start doing the early-week Times at night more often, so I can be in the top ten for a little while...

Philly: it's ONEIDAS, one of those crosswordy tribes - note the plural in the clue. The crossing SSGT is a very popular NCO.

NYS: I wanted to bring this up yesterday when you blogged the Roman-numeral math - why must Gordon clue this way every single time? It's the only thing to dislike about the Sun puzzles. I don't even bother doing a quick estimate, just roll my eyes and wait for the crosses. I'd probably appreciate it more if I weren't going for speed...

P.S. I quit smoking recently! (Hold the kudos, it was easy and long overdue... not that that's ever not overdue.)
Dan | 01.30.08 - 12:09 am | #

I did the puzzle this morning myself. I like to see what, if anything, in the grid got changed by the editor, and I like to see how things are clued. I didn't time myself, but I guarantee I came NO WHERE CLOSE to Orange's time, and I wrote the bloody thing! I hope that makes people feel better about their times, and I want DNA samples from Orange to see if she's human.

Pete C.
Pete Collins | 01.30.08 - 7:44 am | #

I can't even type that fast.
Megan | 01.30.08 - 7:51 am | #

I guessed that ROES for some deer had to do with roebucks, eh? Great hump day of puzzles.

jay
Flipperista | 01.30.08 - 8:58 am | #

As the constructor of the NYS puzzle, I wonder to what extent solvers used the rebus clue to finish off the entries that comprise the arithmetic.

For anyone interested, the puzzle idea started when I observed CODE tucked within CINCO DE MAYO. After digging up potential entries with CODE in them, I then noticed THE D.A. (or THEDA) within THE DAVINCI CODE. Finally, I decided that -VINCI- was low-lying fruit ...and the rest was academic. Hope this doesn't spoil any mystique to the puzzle.

(I wonder if anyone would enjoy a new blog where constructors discuss the making of the puzzles... ...I fear my comments here may be out of place).
Joe Krozel | 01.30.08 - 9:07 am | #

Joe, I love "making of" tales about crosswords! I've included them once or twice, and perhaps I should ask more constructors to chip in. Thanks for sharing the genesis of your kickass puzzle, Joe.

Jay, the roebuck is simply a male roe deer, also called roe for short.
Orange | Homepage | 01.30.08 - 9:14 am | #

Thanks Orange. Perhaps "the constructor's explanation" could be a subject for your next book... I'd have a lot of fun contributing if I were approached to do so.
Joe Krozel | 01.30.08 - 9:21 am | #

I love to read the comments here from the constructors - keep them coming!
Joe, I'm afraid I speed solved the puzzle (the tournament looms), so didn't take the time to "do the math", but did take note of it. I look forward to more of your puzzles, and your constructing comments.
Jan (danjan) | 01.30.08 - 9:22 am | #

Joe,

If I'm correct in what you're asking, my answer would be no. I had all the entries filled before I got to the rebus.

Being too lazy to think that much at 5:00 AM I filled in the rebus answer from crosses.

That took some time because I would not give up DAZE for HAZE and spelled ERMA wrong.
rick | 01.30.08 - 9:38 am | #

Thanks for the positive feedback. I'll point out one last construction method which I often invoke: I like to lop off the inmost black square from the columns that extend from the edges of the puzzle. This puzzle might have been a 76-worder, but my "lop-off" process allowed me insert two 10-letter entries: LEMON TARTS and BITTER PILL and drop the word count to 74. I know solvers love long multi-word entries, so I always push to insert as many extras this way.
Joe Krozel | 01.30.08 - 9:41 am | #

Always always love to hear how themes come into being and find their way into grids. Out of place? Not a chance. I agree with Amy. Tell your stories here. Where better?

Loved your post, Pete. Perhaps some sort of ACPT testing... nah. They'd probably short out the machines.

ONEIDAS was a long time coming for me because I thought INDIANS was a terribly clever answer and a great way to avoid another sports reference. Some answers like SANAA and APU and ADIA are pretty much beyond me but the rest fell easily. Just like Humpty Dumpty :-)
Penny | 01.30.08 - 10:00 am | #

I got CIN from the rebus--whenever I see "Nat. league city" I cringe!
Evad | 01.30.08 - 10:03 am | #

I must be completely out of it. I did the NYS puzzle without any difficulty, and I checked my answers as correct. BUT what is this talk about a rebus. I just don't see it? Help?
LARRY | 01.30.08 - 11:47 am | #

Larry, I think the rebus refers to the clue for 50-Across in that you are concatenating words together and then "subtracting" substrings from those words. I always think of the classic "Concentration" show when I hear rebus--words were formed when images were "added" together.
Evad | 01.30.08 - 11:56 am | #

Larry: It's not a rebus in the sense that you're accustomed to hearing it. You're probably thinking about pictures (or multiple letters) within squares of the puzzle. That's not what's going on here. Instead, the rebus concept is embodied in the clue with the arithmetic operations. Perhaps "rebus" isn't the best term for what I did because there aren't any pictures involved. Sorry for the confusion.
Joe Krozel | 01.30.08 - 12:02 pm | #

I loved the NYS puzzle! I tried to speed thru, but afterward "doing the math" was enjoyable.

One SMALL niggle... the "South of the border celebration" is one which is actually celebrated more NORTH of the border. Most newly landed Mexicans have little or no idea what the Cinco De Mayo celebration is about other than a great excuse for a fiesta. It is a small, regional holiday in Mexico, and certainly NOT "Mexican independence day".
marcie | 01.30.08 - 12:17 pm | #

Joe - Thanks for the clarification. I get your point now. Anyway I had the entire puzzle done before I looked at the 50A clue and then I saw that the answer was made up of pieces of the previous clues. Always like to learn something new, including a new sense for the word "rebus".
LARRY | 01.30.08 - 1:02 pm | #

If "ILLEST" is dated, what would you call "giving props?"

[wink]

mds

PS did not do the "math" on the NYS - not necessary, would have taken too long. BUT I'm still fairly impressed by the construction.
Michael | Homepage | 01.30.08 - 5:52 pm | #

I'm always interested in learning how a puzzle is constructed. I actually dreamed last night that I was working on a puzzle and even dreamed a perfectly reasonable 15-letter clue. Not that I'll ever go anywhere with it, but it was a lovely dream.
JeanSp | 01.30.08 - 6:08 pm | #

I think Peter does those awful math thingies for Roman numerals because he won't have *any* part of the answer in the clue. For example, in today's, DLII was clued using the roman numeral CMXX, which doesn't have a D, L, or I.

I also think he wants to avoid generalities like "Sixth-century year" which is the way DLII is usually clued. If you think about it, his clue at least leads to a unique answer.

If he's reading this he can probably fill us in better.
Alex | Homepage | 01.30.08 - 8:11 pm | #

Thanks for the link to the NYT records, Orange. Quite cool. It's giving me lots of impetus to try to complete puzzles I have in mind, but haven't gotten to work out yet, that would break some of those records.

Joe--Great puzzle. I did use the arithmetic to finish solving it. I had CINCODEMAYO and MAYO from the clues, and when I finally got THEDA (somehow I couldn't remember that one right off) I was able to fill in THEDAVINCICODE and then worked backwards to fill in PROVINCIALS, ALS, and CIN.
Laura | 01.30.08 - 8:52 pm | #

I'm not sure why there's such aversion to the math. It adds another puzzle into the crossword and, as Alex points out, at least points to a unique answer. To me it's all part of the philosophy of providing clues across a wide range of common knowledge. Your "awful math thingies" are my gimmees and vice versa.

Now if the complaint was they aren't words, I'd be right with you, but given that they seem to have found a home in accepted crossword rules then I'm all for having the additional fun of a simple arithmetic problem.
Jim Horne | Homepage | 01.30.08 - 8:57 pm | #

People often wish I were a muted redhead.

And you should have come to trivia. We were terrible.
Tyler | 01.30.08 - 9:11 pm | #

I think that multiplying Roman numerals bugs speed solvers. Also, the math is easier to handle when solving in pencil, rather than on the computer. I recall that there was at least one opinion that clues of the type "Year of Pope ___" are too obscure (I don't mind them, however). I agree with Jim's comment above.
Jan (danjan) | 01.30.08 - 9:14 pm | #

Alex - thanks for the "awful math thingies" thoughts. Never noticed that the clue always uses totally different letters than the answer - is that always mathematically possible with only six "numbers" to work with?

Jim - I don't find basic arithmetic as much fun as the traditional trivia and wordplay, but point taken that it's something different. For the record (since I started it), I'm good at math - but like Jan said, it's not conducive to speed...

But my real questions were, do any other editors use Roman math? Will Peter *ever* stoop to "Sixth year of Charlemagne's reign" (which is unique)? Has he ever? Eh, I'll ask him myself one day.
Dan | 01.30.08 - 10:48 pm | #

I much prefer Roman numeral arithmetic to guessing a year in a pope or emperor's tenure. They're a hassle, but if the crossing is iffy, you can at least be certain that you end up with the correct letters. And with quick estimating, you can often fill in some of the answer—and that's just not happening for me with popes or Roman emperors. (I wouldn't mind seeing a Roman numeral year for a Chinese dynasty...)
Orange | Homepage | 01.31.08 - 12:20 am | #