every now and then an early-week puzzle has crossings that rub me the wrong way, and this was one of them. a supermodel i've never heard of (ALT) crossing an actor i've never heard of (LEW) crossing another actor i've never heard of (WAHL?!?)... i no likey. LES and SAHL are both names; WAHL is a name i've never, ever seen before. this was a super-easy solve other than that little bit. (at least i knew SHUL to give me the H.)

i can understand that having a bunch of proper names crossing each other is sometimes necessary, but early in the week, it's brutal to have them all drawn from pop culture. can't we have the high(er)-culture LEW wallace instead if the L is going to be carol ALT and the W is going to be ken WAHL? better yet, change LEW/WAHL/SHUL to LEG/GAOL/SOUL.

i don't blame acme--i know she knows these pop culture names. i do blame will--his job is to clean up stuff like this, isn't it?
joon | 07.07.08 - 10:56 pm | #

Must be an age/media habit thing--Ken WAHL was the Wiseguy, a very popular cop show, for several seasons. My brother was an extra in a movie with him, shot in the Philippines back in 1982 or so. Carol ALT was superhot supermodel, and famous as a frequent guest on Howard Stern's show--She was his "most likely to bonk should my wife die." After he got divorced they didn't hook up, if I recall.
brownshk12 | 07.08.08 - 12:47 am | #

I agree about WAHL-- and I think it's a mistake to assume that everyone knows recent TV personalities. TV watching fell off the bottom of my 'to do' list quite a number of years ago, and I think that I've got a fair amount of company in that regard.
Matt | 07.08.08 - 5:46 am | #

I didn't have a problem with ALT/LEW/WAHL, so I suspect that joon is a bit younger than I am. I do puzzles that contain a lot of recent pop culture that I consider a challenge and a way of broadening my knowledge; I invite joon to do the same for some of the less recent celebs. In that way, people of many age groups can be entertained by the puzzles. I think the mild rebuke to the editor is not warranted; certainly there are plenty of people my age and older who do these puzzles, and the editor's job would be to remember that.

I highly recommend Trip Payne's Pop Culture Crosswords, in which not all of the pop culture is of the last few years: http:// www.tripleplaypuzzles.com...popculture.html
Jan (danjan) | 07.08.08 - 6:38 am | #

I suspect Will is now wishing he'd seen Joon's LEG/GAOL/SOUL option, or at least clued ALT as the computer key. The pile-up of names didn't bother me in the slightest, though—and solvers who are grumbling about it now will be grateful when ALT, LEW, or WAHL shows up in another puzzle—which will happen. In the NYT, LEW is clued with Ayres about a fourth of the time, and ALT with Carol about a sixth of the time. WAHL has had one [Big name in trimmers] clue in the Sun in addition to a few actor Ken clues.
Orange | Homepage | 07.08.08 - 8:15 am | #

My only quibble with joon's take is mentioning SAHL as being preferable to WAHL - at least WAHL is a couple of decades closer to being current, so I'd say, going with a name, WAHL is a little fresher feeling. The GAOL option is an interesting one but it feels a little Maleska-ish (Maleskal? Maleskoid? Maleskite?).

Nice bits of trickier-than-early-week, yet fair and gettable fill from the "Queen of Monday"!
tony orbach | 07.08.08 - 8:41 am | #

jan, i apologize if i've offended you (or will, or anybody else) with my mild rebuke. of course i know that the NYT puzzle is beloved by solvers of all generations--and i have no problem whatsoever with older pop culture appearing in it. what i do have a problem with is older pop culture crossing older pop culture early in the week, in such a way that there are multiple reasonable guesses if you don't know the name.

orange is right about one thing--i'm going to remember these names, much more surely than i would have if they hadn't all crossed each other. bonking a tuesday really sticks in my craw.

tony, i didn't say SAHL was preferable--i wouldn't be happy if the grid actually had LES/SAHL instead of LEW/WAHL. i only meant SAHL is the _AHL name that came into my mind first (well, second, but i didn't think LED would be clued as somebody's name), so that's what i tried, and it was wrong. i don't think i've ever heard of anybody named WAHL until today.
joon | 07.08.08 - 9:43 am | #

Less see, docked five points for AIREDALE, but given ten points for ZINGER, SUBPOENA...so that leaves me with +5, right?!

OK OK, here is why it was LEW AYRES...no one seems to have appreciated this...it's bec I wanted to put ANOTHER AYRES (AIRS) in the puzzle, but thought it would be cool if it was in the clues, not the grid!!!!! (That made 7 if you count ERR.)

PLUS, LEW AYRES was married to Ginger Rogers, Jane Wyman LEFT Ronald Reagan for him AND he is buried next to Frank Zappa, how could I NOT include him?!!

That made Ken WAHL the only answer there, sorry. As for Carol ALT, yes, computer def would have been a tad better, but she WAS just on "Celebrity Apprentice" for the past 6 months!
But I agree, a bit too much pop culture for one corner, and I've sure heard about that!

There was already a LED in the puzzle (thus GOITER/GED instead of LOITER/LED or LED/DAHL) and I once gave a ride to Mort Sahl who had been one of my idols when I was a stand-up and he was a total prick...and it still would have been pop culture!
;)
andrea carla michaels | 07.08.08 - 2:40 pm | #

Orange, Dan Naddor's puzzle (at the LAT link on Cruciverb.com) is dated Wednesday, July 9th. Today's puzzle was mine. It's on the LAT website, at the daily puzzle link. No harm, though: since Dan's puzzle was niftier than mine, your blog was richer for having commented on his!
Donna | 07.08.08 - 2:49 pm | #

For the Ink Well/Chicago Reader: "greets with a "hello"" is "says hi to". Hell is not one of the seven words. Not that I wrote them out to the side to figure out which hadn't been used!
Beth Willenborg | 07.08.08 - 3:13 pm | #

i'd never heard of SNUFF FILM. after reading up on it, now i wish i still hadn't. thanks, tyler.
joon | 07.08.08 - 3:32 pm | #

@Andrea--Don't let them tell you there was any problem whatsoever with those crosses. Sorry, guys, you've got to learn these names. Supermodel Carol, to me, total gimme, and I don't follow supermodels or their gossip. She was one of the first supermodels, dated Wayne Gretzky, for Crissakes, and is still seen on TV. Ken Wahl, the Wiseguy, a total gimme. And I never saw the show. Ever. You just gotta know these names. Lew Ayres, yeah, different generation, but Dr. Kildare was a MONSTER hit show. Gotta know it. You could just as easily said that you didn't know where Puff the Magic Dragon lived. I know Tues. puzzles aren't supposed to be hard, but do we want People Magazine or TV Guide puzzles in the Times? I don't think there was anything at all wrong with this puzzle--at least there were no Broadway shows winning Emmys.
steve l | 07.08.08 - 3:42 pm | #

Re shul: Temple is to Reform as Synagogue is to Conservative as Shul is to Orthodox.
steve l | 07.08.08 - 3:43 pm | #

Carol has appeared as the clue for ALT 14 times, according to JimH. A fresher way to clue it might be ____-rock or -country.
steve l | 07.08.08 - 3:53 pm | #

steve
I love those ALT-ernatives!!!!!
andrea carla michaels | 07.08.08 - 4:38 pm | #

ALT could also be clued as [Charge of the Light Brigade monogram].

Nah.
.
Tuning Spork | Homepage | 07.08.08 - 11:14 pm | #