I had the same exact approximation thought on the Roman numeral clue.

I highly recommend Desk Set. It is surprisingly relevant to today's Google/Wikipedia "facts"-at-our-fingertips era.
MM | 01.29.08 - 6:57 am | #

Really enjoyed the CS today. The theme wasn't hard but the fill was pretty good.
rick | 01.29.08 - 9:15 am | #

Thanks for the heads-up on the LAT. I'm going to give that a look.

One word of defense re the RIB clue: I don't see how "it posits the scientifically implausible as crossword fact" any more than any other clue about EVE, ADAM, or EDEN, stuff we see virtually every day. The clue refers to the Genesis story, just as "Garden party?" for ADAM or EVE does, and no one (well, hardly anyone) mistakes it for "fact."
JJF | 01.29.08 - 10:27 am | #

Well, John, I'll tell you something: I don't like any of those ones. Gimme Eve Arden, Adam Arkin, and...um...an electronic room for relaxation (E-den!) any day. I just don't care for the Judeo-Christian-centricity of those clues. {Channeling Richard Dawkins} The Norse god clues at least get labeled as myths, but this other breed of subjective belief gets more respect. /soapbox
Orange | Homepage | 01.29.08 - 11:01 am | #

The Norse god clues at least get labeled as myths, but this other breed of subjective belief gets more respect.

Orange, I think you do a disservice with your phrase "this other breed of subjective belief." Call it what you will (though millions of believers would call it "fact," not "belief"), but the Judeo-Christian lore is an integral part of American culture, with a significant majority of the people having been raised in some form of it. It's entitled to as much a place in puzzles as any other culture. Who do you think has greater staying power: Adam of the Bible, or Adam Schlesinger of Fountains of Wayne? /soapbox
Jim | 01.29.08 - 11:48 am | #

Jim, sexism is also pervasive and has been an integral part of American culture, but that doesn't make it right. :-)
Orange | Homepage | 01.29.08 - 12:15 pm | #

And speaking of Richard Dawkins, "Family Feud" has never been the same without him. I don't know why he ever left. ;-)

Actually, I do see the Bible myths along the same lines as the Norse, Celtic, Hindu, Roman or Greek myths--fascinating stories that have informed cultures, in the past and into the present. I don't think of any of them as "fact," and I'm somewhat surprised anyone does. I got lucky, I guess, as the nuns in my grade school taught the stories as stories, not as history. But even for those who see them as stories, myths have a very powerful influence on how one views one's self and the world. I wish we didn't have a Genesis story that created woman from man's rib, or gave "man" dominion over all living things, or had the "fall of man" lead to our exile for eternity outside the garden. But nobody asked me.

Like it or not, these old, old stories are part of our cultural heritage, so I think we should be able to refer to them in crosswords. And that doesn't mean that the puzzles are asserting them as fact or agreeing with their message.

My two cents.
JJF | 01.29.08 - 12:17 pm | #

This gives me a chance to plug another wonderful Hepburn/Tracy movie: Adam's Rib.
MM | 01.29.08 - 12:32 pm | #

Orange, I'm not sure what "right" has to do with it, but I am sure that we're not going to agree on this stuff, so let's call it a day. :-)
Jim | 01.29.08 - 1:33 pm | #

>>Jim, sexism is also pervasive and has been an integral part of American culture, but that doesn't make it right. :-)
Deb Amlen | 01.29.08 - 3:37 pm | #

Whoops, my own comment somehow disintegrated in the ethernet.

I meant to follow up the snippet with "Y'see? That's why I like you :-)"
Deb Amlen | 01.29.08 - 3:38 pm | #

oh my god scott foley.. former felicity paramour AND puzzle constructor?
i might be in love.
emily cureton | Homepage | 01.29.08 - 4:44 pm | #

Good comment about the smut/skin-related/makes hard. For us gay guys, the crossing of ASS and STUDS likely had a similar effect.

Interesting to see the debate about systems of subjective belief yet a reference to the Mormon "church." If you don't think it's as nutty as Scientology, check out exmormon.org .

And vis-a-vis Sao Paulo, a good little movie out now (at least in L.A. and other big markets) is "Alice's House," a slice-of-lifer about a Sao Paulo mother of three finding the possibility of new love...
Jordan | 01.29.08 - 6:13 pm | #

Ah, Jordan, but see, there are those who posit that Mormonism and Scientology are wacky—but that so are Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. It's just what you're familiar with, for many people. Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven scared the crap out of me, though.

And I can't believe I missed ASS crossing the SMUT STUDS.
Orange | Homepage | 01.29.08 - 6:25 pm | #

I love a good theological debate, but I got stuck on Scott Foley. I'm with you, Emily. Wow.

MM, I love those Tracy/Hepburn movies.

Well, okay, just one question: When does belief turn into fanaticism, or faith into fact? We don't know the truth of existence or creation. Have your faith and follow a personal code of ethics that respects the world and everyone in it. And do puzzles. They're so good for the soul. My tuppence.
rikki | 01.29.08 - 7:39 pm | #

in reference to the phrase "dry up",
Kathryn Hepburn said that exact phrase in
"DESKSET", huh.
John | 01.30.08 - 1:17 pm | #

what do you mean when you say "7 letter partial entry"?
huh | Homepage | 02.01.08 - 4:47 pm | #

Six weeks behinds everyone else, alas...

NYT-While I loved the "Old Timer" clue for sundial, doesn't this break a major rule when one of the fill words in the same puzzle is OLDIE? And this same puzzle used "Sees red" to clue FUMES, which crosses RED.

Is the old "Don't use grid fill words in your clues" rule out the window?
rosebud | 03.11.08 - 10:15 am | #

Rosebud, the rule's still there, but Will seems more inclined than other editors to let them slide (or to miss noticing them). Just don't refuse to put an answer in because there's a dupe like that--if the crossings are working with it, go with it. Some people fight against it and end up frustrated.
Orange | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 12:51 pm | #