Wow. Just...wow. Great writing, and a real eye-opener. I am white, and female, and consider myself a liberal and (hopefully) progressive. I don't judge anyone by anything except by the way they act. But you've given me another look at the 'other side', and gave me a lot to think about...and a lot to work on in the world.

Thank you.
Sharktattoo | 05.06.07 - 2:25 pm | #

You've certainly given us a lot to read. I'm looking forward to reading it one of these days. I'm sure you have made many excellent and interesting points.
Gov. Fahr-Wright | 05.06.07 - 2:59 pm | #

Maybe we're not a major liberal blog but we did cover the LAPD's assault on the May Day marches. LINK. It may strike you as a poor effort, or one that inadequately addresses the issues in question, I don't know. But we did cover the story.

That said, I recognize that white liberal blogs do not do enough to address issues of race, because we are as prone as anyone else to deceive ourselves regarding the racial stereotypes we hold, and the blind spots we possess. I would welcome any posts who wish to make at Booman Tribune, and would be more than happy to post them to our front page, since the perspective you bring to the issue of racism is one that is often lacking and sorely needed in the white progressive blogosphere.

Sincerely,

Steven D
Steven D | Homepage | 05.06.07 - 3:56 pm | #

What? You getting paid by the word?
bilzim | 05.06.07 - 4:01 pm | #

Great post Nez.
patriotboy | Homepage | 05.06.07 - 4:04 pm | #

What? You getting paid by the word?

I sure hope he is. This is the BEST POST EVAR!!!!1!!11!!!1!
Donna | Homepage | 05.06.07 - 5:55 pm | #

Are you concerned with immigration, the lack of dialogue about racial issues in the blogosphere, or hideous police tactics? Are you arguing that certain issues should have more priority, or are you condemning people who fail to have already come to that conclusion? Are you trying to make a case for that the progressive should be, or are you just chastizing straw bloggers for failing to understand your vision?

Discussions of this sort would also benefit if they at least acknowledged that whatever his strengths or flaws, Markos Moulitsas is an immigrant Latino. I don't bring this up to inject tokenism, or to suggest his prominence in the blogosphere nullifies any point you are making, but very often when these issues are discussed he is simply assumed away.
Stormy Weather | 05.06.07 - 7:02 pm | #

From an Anglo compañero... Thank you! I love your writing and your perspective and your humor (in other posts ).

The immigration issue is the defining issue of our time. "Progressives" need to open their eyes, speak out and take action for justice now.

The detention camps are already built
http://www.blackcommentator.com/ ...on_centers.html
-- contracted to Halliburton -- and the inmates will not be restricted to "illegal immigrants".
will | 05.06.07 - 7:05 pm | #

UnaMex:

Great piece, smack on target. I was talking to a good friend yesterday who I consider to be a very enlightened being in most ways. He is, however, unwilling (as are many of my family and friends) to acknowledge that silence in the face of discrimination is a form of complicity. I am not so much brave, actually I'm fairly cowardly, about espousing my views on race; but when I do (having reached the TLV for listening to people who have no basis for their "logic" about such things as racial discrimination) I usually come across as a latter day John Brown.


The notion that POC are somehow less than I am is just plain crap. In fact, the notion that we are not all equal as humans is just plain crap. Racism, like alcoholism is a disease of society, not just those with a visible problem. And, like alcoholism, racism can not begin to be eliminated until we all admit to its pervasiveness.
democommie™™™™®© | 05.06.07 - 7:07 pm | #

Stormy Weather:

Your first sentence is "asked and answered", imo, in court room terms.

Nez's piece is wide ranging and rambling but tightly enough focused for me to parse. Now if you want incoherent rambling you need only to read my stuff, or for truly bizarre shit, most any reichwing blog.
democommie™™™™®© | 05.06.07 - 7:16 pm | #

I'm sorry, my ADD is acting up. But what I did read was fantastic.

Can you post an abridged version for those of us that work full-time, raise a family, pay a mortgage, go to grad school (better than) half-time, garden, build seiza benches and comfort our in-laws, some who have cancer, others who are recovering drug addicts? Oh. And have the misfortune of living in Bakersfield (the red part of blue California).

I guess I fall into the 'blog-as-distraction' crowd.
The Devil You Know | 05.06.07 - 7:23 pm | #

first, nez, as usual, this is an amazing post, chocked full with lots and lots of great ideas that are little kernals of potential all by themselves. thank you for taking the time to write this!

Discussions of this sort would also benefit if they at least acknowledged that whatever his strengths or flaws, Markos Moulitsas is an immigrant Latino.

I think this is a good point, and I think I might have seen you post this some place else. I think a great response to this thought is over at the silence of our friends:
http://the-silence-of-our-friend...ns-on- self.html
brownfemipower | Homepage | 05.06.07 - 7:29 pm | #

Nez, I just want to say that I used to...dislike Mexicans very much. The White Lens of the TV always showed me images of lazy siesta-enjoying cotton clothed lumps, their skin absorbing the dirt of the fields they would sometimes work in but more often lay in. They were worthless rubes who were contolled by a government made corrupt through its own inherent laziness. None of my beliefs were crystalized, they were instead vague notions fed by a slow but steady stream of stereotypes and negative press. Since my "awakening" as a person of a different sexual orientation, I've come to see what it's like to be the "other". Oh, I could hide, yes. Skin color gives no indication of my preferred gender. The closet door is wide indeed. But the dishonesty sickened me. So as the religous right and the ignorant students at my school began to fling the rhetoric of the outsider at me, it opened my eyes for the first time on how such stereotypes are employed in the quest for fear, which is really the quest for power. The adhesive that held the White Lens over my eyes began to lose strength, and continues to to this day. I have since tried very hard to step outside of the fearfull shell I allowed to be constructed around myself and look at all people as equal, even those who would subdue me. You, and the General, have been light bearers in this. But more needs to be done. The issue of ending discrimination is perhaps the most important issue of the day. It even ties into the Iraq war. Its very easy to occupy the land of the "knuckle-draggers", a la John Gibson. The prevalence is astounding. So thank you, Nez, for the clarion call.
nyarl21 | 05.06.07 - 7:42 pm | #

This was really---long.
scrutinizer | 05.06.07 - 7:47 pm | #

One might get the impression that certain commentors have not read the article in its whole by the questions being posed.

Nezua is very clear in this post on every question you have asked. All of your questions, however, are posed in such as way that one might think you are being uncharitable about Mr. Xolagrafik-Jonez' point of view. That's certainly the conclusion I came to, based on the ordering of your questions. They sound like a Fox News Push Poll.

If this reads at all as confrontational, feel free to consider it as much...

Thank you for taking the time out of your very busy schedule to let us know what you think about the length of the article.
Dead Inside | 05.06.07 - 8:04 pm | #

Long, but great post. Well worth the read and your points are well taken.

Thank you for the links to other blogs, too. I feel like I often need to get out of the DKos, C&L, Americablog, Talkingpointsmemo world but am not really sure where to go to get a different perspective. I guess I'm not a hardcore blog reader or else I'd have an idea where to look but I do like a variety of viewpoints and know there is probably a great deal that I'm missing.

I think progressives could learn a lot from the immigrants who have been protesting. I mean, their protests made the anti-war protests look small (and the pro-war protests look microscopic). I think one of the reasons liberals/progressives may be reluctant to join forces, as it were, is the fear that they will then be viewed as caring more about illegal immigrants than Americans. Or some such nonsense. It's one of the more frustrating parts of American society and politics. You have to stay within the narrow bounds of white, mainstream debate, or else people start to treat you as though you're from another planet.

It's a difficult issue and it's something we'll always have to work on, but your post was a step in the right direction.

Well done.
Mike | 05.06.07 - 11:50 pm | #

Thank you General. Thank you, guys.
nezua limón xolagrafik-jonez | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 2:06 am | #

and um gals, sorry!
nezua limón xolagrafik-jonez | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 2:07 am | #

An excellent article. I even got a quarter of the way through it even though I'm pretty busy today.

It has given me pause to wonder, why is the majority of the population of Mexico and Central America so desperate to come to the US that they will hazard such difficulties? What have they done to their countries that is so bad they cannot fix it?
John West | 05.07.07 - 10:56 am | #

Look, I think Nez's overarching point is valuable, but I'm fucking furious about this.

When the hell was I designated "the face" of the left blogosphere on race?

I spent much of last week traveling and dealing with a family death, and what posting I did was done on the ferry and late at night when I could squeeze a little time in.

When the fuck was it that I was named the White Man in Charge of the Race Discussion? I'm just a guy posting in his garage and I do the best I can.

Nez, not only do you hold me to a ridiculously high standard, but it's one that you're not willing to meet yourself. Where were the links from you when I wrote the eliminationism series, especially the stuff on immigration? You're just getting around to reading it now!

Incidentally, I had been warning about the likelihood of concentration camps resulting from immigration policy well before Hutto came up. See here, here and here for example.

You'd know that if you'd been reading me all along, Nez. But you haven't, so you don't really know what I've been saying. Now you want to come in and tell me what I need to be writing about? I don't think so.
David Neiwert | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 11:24 am | #

Dear Nez,

It was exciting to read your comments about my comments in your most recent post on JC’s website. It seems that my response to your Brad and Angie send-up hit a nerve; I can’t deny that I take some pleasure [and pride] in knowing that I got your attention. Too bad that this medium is so limiting. I daresay we could have a much more interesting and productive conversation in real time, but that is never going to happen, so allow me to do the best I can with what I have available to me.

Let me begin by telling you the truth about who I am. Indeed, I am the whitest white person you could imagine. I’m educated, I’m middle class, I have been privileged in every way. Not a day passes that I do not think about my incredible privilege. I won’t try to give you some sob story about how I understand “you people” or how I feel I can relate to your struggle. I understand my whiteness as well as you understand your brownness. I know that in any attempt to have an honest conversation about race, I am positioned at the brink of a yawning chasm of defensiveness, anger, shame, suspicion, political correctness, naiveté, and good old lack of information. There’s plenty of all of these to go around. I struggle with them constantly. Moreover, my heart breaks every day at the injustices in this world, just as yours does.

As a teacher and academic, my inclination is to ask for evidence to support provocative and –as you have rightly pointed out—unsupportable claims. It’s a habit I’ve developed because I am in the business of training privileged, entitled young people to think past their baseless and often dangerous assumptions about the world they inhabit. Young people come to us so deeply indoctrinated by their conservative Christian, Republican parents, and so narrow in their beliefs about the world, that many of them truly are uneducable. In some sense I probably understand your frustration.

I’d like for you to hear why I reacted so strongly to your post about foreign adoptions. I don’t expect you to agree with me, because I feel like you’re pretty quick to judge white people as never really being able to understand the experience of “POC”—somehow we had better just take their words for it. I feel a little saddened by your desire to dismiss “data” and social science as possible means to explaining a lot of the dysfunction in race relations in this country. Stories and experiences are powerful—I use them in my classroom—but whatever attitudes and values and beliefs can be measured and qualified can [and have, and do] help us to address racism. Numbers can command attention. Look at Darfur. In the end, it will be a few powerful leaders who can turn the stories of millions into better policies that open more doors for more and more people, regardless of their backgrounds. I wish it were otherwise, but it’s true—Bush should be all the evidence anyone needs that leadership is all—he turns everything he touches to pure shit. Imagine the good that could have been accomplished by his moral and intellectual opposite.

I live outside of the bubble. I WORK in one, but I live in a deeply segregated, anti-intellectual DEEP South community, population 730, with 28% of the population—most of them black—below the poverty line. Sorry to keep returning to numbers, but they mean something to me. Before I moved into my house, the elderly man across the street dropped in to tell us he didn’t know the house was for sale until he saw a bunch of niggers painting it. Anther man who sells his local tomatoes and figs for $1/pound confided in my husband that he doesn’t like it when niggers ask him if they can pick from his tress, ‘cuz they eat more than they pay for. Another white neighbor told us he was fighting the development of a new subdivision because he was afraid of the town going black; finally another neighbor of ours asked me one time over dinner why my college admitted black students, who, everybody knows, are not able to learn. And why is our poverty rate higher than the national average, and why is the poverty rate for blacks in my town higher than the national average? And why should I care about those numbers? Wouldn’t I be more moved by an individual’s story of suffering? Frankly, no—I don’t need any more stories to know that the town I live in is one of many thousands of versions of Hell in this country.

Oh, and the hypocrisy of the progressive white liberals in my university; my black students tell me stories of, for example, the super liberal professor who turns to them in class and asks, “So, how do BLACK WOMEN feel about this issue?” because of course, all black women feel exactly the same way about every issue, right? To be black is to be the voice of every other black person, right? Except that my POC students—or should I say my SOCs [the student body here is 41% nonwhite]—really hate this treatment and only want to be seen as individuals. Yes—their stories are moving, but their stories haven’t made the biased treatment go away.

I simply cannot buy your argument about cross-racial or cross-cultural adoption. From my point of view, as every era is marked by profound social change, we are witnessing our world get smaller, for better or for worse. I have no doubt that inter-racial/cultural adoption has fucked up a lot of kids. But adoption fucks up kids, period. Think of the fucked-up kids you knew growing up who were adopted. At the same time, think of all the adopted people you know who are perfectly well-adjusted. Adoption is one of those human behaviors that happens to be fraught with risk; I wouldn’t do it, but I salute those who do, and who do their best to be responsible parents to their kids. Sometimes adopted kids carry life-long grudges against their adoptive parents, sometimes they don’t. Maybe some of Brad and Angie’s kids will hate their guts—and maybe some of them will be just fine. And let’s not even go into all the billions of humans throughout history who have been completely fucked up by their biological parents. Parenthood itself is such a crazy, scary endeavor anymore, especially for American parents who fetishize the whole business to the detriment of everyone, especially themselves as they spend their families deeper and deeper into debt to ensure their precious American children get all the “things” they are entitled to.

It’s really east to attack celebrities. They’re dumb and narcissistic. Do you know about Melissa Fay Greene? She’s an Atlanta author who has written some powerful books about social change in the South, including some events in which she and her husband played important roles—as white people—but Jewish white people, which, I am sure you know, basically qualifies them as POC here in the Deep South. Recently she has written about Ethiopian AIDS orphans, and she’s adopted a couple herself. She’s also got an adopted son from Eastern Europe. I have a hard time criticizing decent people for willingly raising other people’s children. I just can’t do it. She’s not just trying to save the world one child at a time—she’s trying to educate people as well.

I sense that for you this is a very political issue. You write about how hard it is to be a POC in the US, and you are genuinely concerned about the hardships that these children may face as they grow up and feel robbed of their “true” culture.” I asked you for data BECAUSE, from another point of view, the American culture has tremendous absorbing power; many immigrants assimilate completely, and “all” of their kids do. I am suspicious of your claim because as far as I am concerned, you ignore a very important variable: is it being adopted by a parent of another color that fucks some kids up, or is it just being adopted? That’s what I want to know. But I don’t see how the kids themselves could ever really know for sure—that is TRULY an untestable hypothesis. As I have already said, I have very mixed feelings about adoption in general. I have very mixed feelings about contemporary parenthood in the US, too. But I see flaws in your argument, too. There are millions of orphans on the planet. What’s to become of them? That question has to be part of the discussion. It’s too easy to blame the existence of so many orphans on imperialistic white Western policies—yeah, so what now? Americans are the assholes of the planet. What happens to those kids?

So, I can’t quite be offended when you accuse me of not “getting it.” The real racists in this country get away with literal and figurative murder EVERY DAY. Those of us who actually think critically and see the complexity in most issues get taken to task by you. I may not be “right” about foreign adoption, but I sure as hell don’t see a clear, easy solution to the problems it poses, and for me, numbers do matter, Nez. If most kids live better lives with adopted parents, then maybe foreign adoption—even with all its potential for problems—is better than no adoption. And that’s where I am coming from. There’s no perfect solution, people suffer, life is unfair. At some point even the most decent among us learn to live with the shit—we wade through it every moment of our lives, we hold our noses, and we keep on going and doing what we believe is right, even if the stench is overwhelming.

When the liberals, or progressives, or however you label yourself, start going after ME, then I wonder what my category is. Trust me, I got your point: even those of us who think we are progressive aren’t really that progressive, because we discount the stories of the oppressed. We don’t hear them. We can’t understand what could possibly be wrong with our “white” way of doing things. You have misjudged me. I know everything that’s wrong about being white. I also know a few of the things that are wrong about being brown, or red, or yellow, or whatever other colors might be used to describe the shade of someone’s sk
stella | 05.07.07 - 12:23 pm | #

cont'd someone’s skin.

So what do I do now? How can I be a better white person? By joining in the public condemnation of Angeline Jolie? I don’t think so. Americans are dying a slow painful death from their unwillingness to know anything about anything. I am not one of them. Like you, I think critically and I am not afraid to speak out about my feelings. I am sorry you think I’m an imperialist; in truth we probably have much more in common than we realize.

Sincerely,

Stella
stella | 05.07.07 - 12:31 pm | #

The conflation of anecdotes with data is stupid, and the Unapologetic Mexican was right to be called on it. Of course there are some transracial adoptees who are traumatized and unhappy about it -- with enough such adoptees, there are bound to be some.

And you even got supporting letters from websites devoted to the issue! No, really! Well, that settles it.

The question that UM doesn't want to answer, ie are these 90%, 50%, 5%, 1%, or .05% of such adoptees is critical -- and to handwave it away demonstrates intellectual vacuity. Without in any way detracting from the traumatization some such adoptees feel, we can recognize that this may or may not be a widespread problem and what, if anything, we do about it depends on the answer.

Further, whining about a "white lens" is stupid. My curiosity came from the idea that if such adoptees were traumatized, then perhaps we should ban or discourage such adoptions. The very act of understanding that you whine people such as me don't seek is what is gained by data instead of anecdote. Further, accusing people of "not understand[ing] everything in the world, even when [emotional appeal, blah blah blah]" is priceless when the very reason people are interested is said understanding. If they didn't care to understand they would ignore it.

Since we're playing the anecdote game, let me submit that I'm good friends with two transracial adoptees who are happy and successful. One has a degree from Stanford and a 6 figure income; the other is a senior dev at a software company whose name everybody recognizes. From repeateded discussion, particularly regarding adoption, both have stated they're OK with being adopted and don't regard being brought up in the 'wrong' culture as negative in their lives. See, everybody can play this game!
E | 05.07.07 - 1:43 pm | #

Fire it up! Fire it up! Woohoo, to those of you who couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing, but still felt the need to comment on it and point out you didnt read the whole thing, go fuck yourselves. It took four minutes. If you cant' invest that much time into such a well-written and passionate piece then just stfu about it. I don't agree with everything Nez says, but I understand.
And maybe that dirty white underbelly never totally disappeared, Nez, but it did submerge for a while. But "the South shall rise again" and I guess it is- the worst racism is re-surging. The youth of America are way less susceptible to this, but plenty of them are now being re-brainwashed by parents who are falling back into racism that they had long buried. I wish like Hell that they weren't, but they are. Times are getting harder, and middle class whites in America are just too stupid to lay blame where it belongs- On Free market capitalism and 20 years of selling out our patriotism for commercialism.
White people (this is just my take) are raised that those richer than you ARE Better than you. Its a lot easier to blame those beneath you. If you blame the rich, why then you are just a jealous loser who couldn't hack it. That's my experience anyway- so maybe that's why they can't seem to comprehend that the people fucking them aren't the people with EVEN less money than them- but the men at the top who have been implementing the Piss-on-the-American-Worker's-Back trickle down economy.

Race-baiting and blaming illegal immigrants for our woes is easy. But anyone who takes a long, hard look at it can see its a complete scapegoat.

But hey, Nez don't feel all alone being pissed off about it- There's a long line of people who were cockroaches in this country's history, some of us white Irish beasts and subhumans, good only for menial labor to the ruling class.

You've got a fight ahead of you, and you are right- for this "fight" to morph into something more than race riots, white progressives do have to do a better job of understanding that its the class war that is at the root of this worsening racism. And that the class war is also at the heart of something most White Progressives rally around daily- The Bush's Admin policies.
Fade | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 2:39 pm | #

David N, I'm a Native American woman. Around the mid 1800s there was an Indian agent who was conscientious about fighting for our rights, when he found white people squatting on our lands he had them evicted, when he found them cutting down our trees or otherwise stealing our resources, he had the trees returned to us for us to sell or gave us the money from the sale. Past Indian agents thought it was a great joke to wait until late spring or summer to get the seed we needed for our farms to us when it was too late to sow, not this one. He actually respected us as human beings. My family changed our surname, it is his surname. Now think this over carefully, isn't this wrong and terribly sad? Why should we be so overwhelmingly grateful to this man...for doing his job? It's because there are so many who didn't. It's because there are so many who stole from us instead and covered for the other white people who were stealing from us. It's because most white people thought of us as subhuman and treated us that way.

I see you in a similar way and it appears that you don't like it. You never expected to be the White Man in Charge of Race Discussions, but you are, because no other high visibility white people will do it. That's what Nezua means by this, "Yes, I hold Orcinus to a higher standard on these issues, but I'm sure it's obvious why."

Just like what I said about the Indian agent and my family taking his name for merely doing the right thing. No one else in the liberal white blogosphere gives a damn about the immigrant situation or racial issues. They aren't willing to do the research or write even a little acknowledgement of the police brutality in LA. It's wrong and it's sad, but it's a fact. Like Digby, they don't even see that racism is a problem in America, they might as well be Tony Snow...until you mention it.

The biggest problem I have with you and your role as spokesperson, is that you are safe, which is why the white blogosphere picked you as the "go to guy" on race. You only look at it in terms of those awful conservatives/Republicans. But the fact that race is invisible to liberals should tell you something about the problem not only being about conservatives.

It's also a problem that there are no brown voices out there being heard. That's why Nezua suggested linking to some of our blogs in your posts and in your blogroll. You don't have to be the spokesperson if you point the way to what people of color are saying about these issues.

What worries me now is that you will be scared off by the responsibility or angered by what we have said and you will abandon making any posts at all about race and racism. That leaves us with no one at the larger white blogs to raise these issues.

Maybe at some time a Native American could have said to that Indian agent, "If you did things this other way instead of the way you are doing it, it would make it better for us." And the Indian agent could have said, "You have alot of nerve telling me how to go about my business!", quit his job, and left us with no one willing to do the right thing.

Please keep doing the right thing, please convince others to do it too, please show the way to blogs by people of color who are, to quote Nezua, "regular, enduring, and committed" to these issues.
Donna | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 2:42 pm | #

I don't know what Nezua was thinking, of course, but I didn't read it as specifically calling David Neiwert out for not writing enough on illegal immigration. The point I got was Orcinus was the only semi-well-known blog that said virtually anything about it. He did take the time to quote from the Eliminationism series and point out how valuable he felt it was.

Really, though, I think Nezua is expecting too much from the "A-list" blogs. We have a bazillion things to think about already; there's a WAR in Iraq, we're trying to get white Americans to recognize that the Bush administration has not been acting in their best interests (I just had a blog argument with someone who insisted that Bush was "just protecting me from myself"), keep the momentum for more and deeper investigations of the festering malfeasance that 6 years of lack of Congressional oversight has allowed, and start gearing up for the 2008 election cycle. And NOW Nezua wants to bash the Left for forgetting about race?

And yeah, I know it sucks to say it and it's all un-liberal of me and I'm blinded by my "white lens" whatever the hell that is. I know it's not me having my civil rights violated because I'm not a "POC". But really, we have a LOT to do just to get "whitey's" house in order to the point where we can even START dealing effectively with race again. Good God, there was a story on Think Progress just this morning on how the DOJ's Civil Rights Division had 2 count 'em 2 minority lawyers. Simply, this government is not ABLE to deal with race issues at this point. We have to focus on getting IT fixed first, I think. And somehow, I have the sneaking suspicion that if we do that, getting back to taking reasonable actions on race issues will naturally follow along. Raking the A-list sites over the coals for not being PC enough or somehow ignoring the issue doesn't strike me as particularly helpful in advancing this agenda.
liberalrob | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 2:58 pm | #

Hi Dave. Thanks for correcting me where I was wrong. I do stop in and read you, my friend. I already knew about your eliminationalism series. It was presented in the narrative as being "found" after Digby's post because I went there at that point, and looked it over before commenting on its context. Sorry to mislead with my artistic license!

You are right, I am a hypocrite, and more than once, I'm sure. I'm trying to be truer, dont mean to talk as if I have arrived.

I hope when you are not angry anymore you appreciate my "overarching point" more. I did not mean it as an attack on your, per se, although I see how it can feel that way.

Paz, Nezua
nezua limón xolagrafik-jonez | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 3:31 pm | #

stella, i am NOT going to continue the Jolie thread here! Anyway, you also emailed me your lengthy comment, and i answered you quite thoroughly in my email. hope it will suffice. if not, i don't think there's anything left for us to talk about at the moment. maybe soon.
nezua limón xolagrafik-jonez | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 3:34 pm | #

"And NOW Nezua wants to bash the Left for forgetting about race?"

Apparantly. It makes me wonder if the blogs can really create communities among those of us who truly have no voice among our elected representatives.

It's like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
stella | 05.07.07 - 3:55 pm | #

Not quite as fascinating as the 160-year old anti-Indian guilt trip.
Token Whitey Oppressor | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 4:28 pm | #

You know the civil rights movement happened at the same time that a WAR was going on. There was alot of white people who wanted POC to sit down and stfu then too. Whenever it comes to equality or justice for brown people somehow it is never at the top of the agenda for white people. And waiting a couple years, no, it still will be on the cold back burner, while you've got other fish to fry. I'm sure that until hell freezes over there will be something else that white people think is more important that brown people's issues.

"It makes me wonder if the blogs can really create communities among those of us who truly have no voice among our elected representatives."

Obviously not. The most underrepresented would be POC and the poor. And the A-listers could care less about creating community with those people with no voice.

We'll just keep listening to you white people online with the bright idea of voting in anyone with a D after his or her name. That's how we got these weak namby pamby DNC republican lite elected representatives who helped get us into these latest messes. We knew that Bill Clinton's NAFTA would be a disaster for the poor, middle class, labor, consumers, and Mexicans and Central Americans (gosh I wonder how this ties into the immigrant issue now?) but a boon to big global corporations. But shit, don't listen to us, I'm sure the A-listers have more bright ideas on who is electable instead of who actually has ideas or stands for anything besides lining his pockets with corporatocracy money and snubbing the rest of us as he screams, "I GOT MINE! SUCKERS!" I don't know how many times I have said, it really doesn't matter if a Democrat drives us over the cliff at 55 instead of a Republican at 100 mph, maybe we need some fresh thinking to stop heading over the cliff?
Donna | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 4:46 pm | #

"Not quite as fascinating as the 160-year old anti-Indian guilt trip."

You like that? I got lots more where that came from. Surprisingly there are alot of sad and horrific stories surrounding my family and our people, in a loving Christian country. I know, it's hard to imagine!
Donna | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 4:51 pm | #

I think--and have for a long time thought--that racism is the biggest social problem we face in this country. And I'm white. Maybe I should start my own blog.

And there are many of us white people out here who would love a candidate who speaks more loudly to the issues you have mentioned.
stella | 05.07.07 - 5:07 pm | #

Donna:

I would wager that the man you describe was every bit as flabbergasted at the honor your family bestowed on him as I am at your insistence that I represent the face of white liberals on race in the blogosphere. I think both of us would have agreed with your sentiment: We were both just doing our jobs.

And don't worry about scaring me off. I'm not writing what I do out of anything but deep conviction. Neo-Nazis haven't scared me off yet; getting my feelings hurt is pretty small potatoes, really.

As I said, I think Nez's underlying point is important. You know, I think a lot of white folks who are sincerely progressive about racial issues like to think that it's not "their issue" -- they leave the advocacy up to the minorities who they see as that constituency. I happen to think racial issues affect us all and are the provenance of every progressive. I'm kind of baffled that I'm one of the few who does talk about those issues consistently, particularly the immigration debate.

But really, it's against my nature -- and part of the parcel -- to bang my shoe on the table when no one pays attention. You know, this idea that I'm an "A-lister" really doesn't hold up: I get about 3,000 hits daily, which is very healthy, but far below what the General gets, or Digby, or many many others. And frankly, the more I've talked about immigration, the more traffic, and more especially my links for the real A-listers, has tapered off -- but that hasn't changed my focus.

What really dismayed me, though, and still does, is being described as "safe." What I do isn't safe. Confronting neo-Nazis and racists isn't safe. Pointing out the flow of extremism into mainstream conservatism, and calling it for what it is (namely, fascism) isn't safe -- what happens, actually, is what has happened to me, namely, that you get tagged an alarmist and a race-monger. Again, that hasn't changed my focus.

Being called "safe" really takes for granted the many risks I've taken over the years and continue to take, both personally and professionally. And I insist on taking them when necessary because it is, after all, my job.
David Neiwert | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 5:18 pm | #

A last note: I do like to think that people link to me not because I'm "safe" but because I do good, solid, reliable work.
David Neiwert | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 5:23 pm | #

David Neiwirt:

I will check out your blog, soon.


Nez:

Racial discrimination is just one of the many hammers in the reactionary toolbox. And, as tools go, it is brutally effective.

I grew up in a racist environment that seemed perfectly normal. I was so thoroughly indoctrinated to the view that POC were inferior beings that it is still difficult for me to just see people as people. It requires a concious effort, I have to work at it--how fucked up is that?

Our society is always in flux, we are always dealing with a host of problems which afflict our nation. Poverty, infant mortality, pollution, unequal justice, illegal wars--it just goes on and on. Each of the problems I just mentioned (and many others, such as welfare) have two separate tracks--one for whites, one for others. The response to Hurricane Katrina is a stark example of the double track.
democommie™™™™®© | 05.07.07 - 6:04 pm | #

"You know, I think a lot of white folks who are sincerely progressive about racial issues like to think that it's not "their issue" -- they leave the advocacy up to the minorities who they see as that constituency."

And to be fair, there are POC who don't see the issues as white people's issues. The misunderstandings and defensiveness go both ways. For two years I've been involved in dialogues on race, with pretty diverse participants, adn if I've learned ANYTHING I've learned that there is no such thing as "the" POC point of view.

I've been called out by some of my Students of Color for teaching about poverty--I've been told that a middle class white lady can't teach about it.

There has to be truth-telling on both sides in order for real reconciliation to take place.

I know from my personal experience that these discussions are among the hardest discussions to have--lots of potential for things to blow up.

It's very hard to talk about race. I would imagine it's very hard to blog about race.
stella | 05.07.07 - 6:31 pm | #

You've misunderstood what I mean by safe, as you know race issues can be explosive and alot of white people tip toe around them. This is mostly due to the fact that they are blind to their privilege in our society and when that rears it's ugly head it will set off a backlash. This is a form of racism, and even the most progressive white people tend to engage in it, so when a POC is talking about liberals and racism this is generally what we mean. When they are called on it, they hate it, they make all kinds of excuses to remain blind to it and deny it. I haven't read every post at your blog, so I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong here, but what makes you safe is that you only raise the most blatant racism which tends to involve conservatives/Republicans, this is what we mean by "safe". Those who link to you are safe from criticism or from facing the possibility that they have racist tendencies.

I recently gave an example of some privileges I am lacking. Some background, I'm Native American, but I am married to a white guy and live in a nice middle class neighborhood in Wisconsin. In March, my garage door opener stopped working, I called someone to fix it. Usually I would just have my husband handle the situation but he wasn't there so I had to do it. I predicted on another blog that the guy would hesistate and give me "the look" when I handed him a check. White people never expect brown people to be able to handle money, so you can always tell that they are thinking, is this check gonna bounce? I also have three herniated discs in my neck and take lortab for the pain. I made sure I didn't that day because I didn't want to appear to be one of those stoned or drunk injuns. I was wrong about my prediction, the guy took one look at me, introduced himself and asked, "Will you be paying today." it was that blatant.

If I was white, I would have taken my meds instead of been in excruciating pain that morning. I wouldn't have to worry about people thinking I am drunk first thing in the morning. If I was white, it would have been assumed that I am smart enough to know that when you hire someone to do something you pay them for it. If I was white, it would be assumed I have the money to pay. Especially considering the neighborhood I live in. These are some of the privileges that white people have that they take for granted.

I did something else just now based on my lack of privilege and Token Whitey Oppressor called me on it, although I doubt if he recognized it for what it is. I am so used to white people telling me that I am ungrateful, and they don't have to be nice to me, and I better watch my step or they will have nothing to do with me, if I challenge them or disagree with them in any way. That is clearly an imbalance in equality that many white people are quite happy to take advantage of. I actually didn't mean to guilt trip you. I really was expecting you to say, screw you brown people for giving me a hard time, see if I post on your issues anymore! I'm sorry for misjudging you, it isn't personal, it's just something that happens too often to me and other POC and we get used to it.
Donna | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 6:33 pm | #

Donna:

I've actually been talking about white privilege a lot, especially lately. I'd urge you to at least read my installment in the eliminationism series that revolves around it.

But thanks for hearing me out. I'm far more interested in building bridges than burning them.
David Neiwert | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 7:37 pm | #

Wow, I'm only on the first post on the google search and I'm blown away. That's some hella good writing!
Donna | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 9:35 pm | #

Stella, there is no one POC point of view. I know that of the POC on my blogroll I have disagreed with them, or they have disagreed with me at one time or another, including on issues of race. But...overall we know what each other is talking about almost all the time, like being brothers and sisters, there isn't that level of understanding with many white people even on my blogroll, but there are a few. Even those who don't quite get it, most of them make the effort, which is why they are on my blogroll. Which means that these are some of the most racially aware white people around (that I know of, I've only been blogging since September, I'll find more as I go along). I don't even bother with talking racial politics with white people I know in real life, with the exception of my husband and some of his family members, because I suspect the ignorance and misunderstanding would be too frustrating for both sides.

I can understand your students' point of view about teaching poverty, it would be difficult but not impossible, without experiencing it. For example, you're more likely to attribute motives for the reason people do things the way they do due to stereotypes about poverty than the actual reasons. Like how some poor people are fat, middle class people think they are getting too many food stamps and really living it up, but what you might not know is that they are still malnourished. Fresh fruits and vegetables are very expensive, but Kraft Mac & Cheese or hotdogs? Then there is the fact that there aren't many supermarkets in poor neighborhoods, you might be getting your "meal" from a 7/11 and it isn't likely to be healthy eating a bag of chips, a twinkie, and a soda for lunch. I know because when we (my mother, sister, and I) were poor and we were out of groceries and couldn't find a ride into town to shop that was the kind of meals we had for that day or two until we could arrange a ride.
Donna | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 10:00 pm | #

I don't know where I saw it but I think somewhere on this thread mention was made of the fact that other minorities/emigres have suffered for some period of time before becoming part of the warp and woof of the social fabric in this country. I can certainly agree with that having lots of Irish on both sides of the family. The same is true of the Jews, Swedes, Poles--you name it. The HUGE difference is that when I go into the post office and see the three guys behind the counter (Messers Michelczewski, DiGrazia & Kelly) I have to look at their name tags to figure out what sort of jokes to tell in order to offend them. If the man behind the counter is black I don't need to know his name to figure it out. Over 40 years after the Civil Rights Act and over 140 years after the Emancipation Proclamation and POC are still not free to live as I am.
democommie™™™™®© | 05.07.07 - 11:03 pm | #

Really, though, I think Nezua is expecting too much from the "A-list" blogs. We have a bazillion things to think about already.
---

Strange fruit.
Doug Watts, Zombie | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 4:53 am | #

Donna:

I've actually been talking about white privilege a lot, especially lately. I'd urge you to at least read my installment in the eliminationism series that revolves around it.

But thanks for hearing me out. I'm far more interested in building bridges than burning them.
David Neiwert | Homepage | 05.07.07 - 7:37 pm | #
---

Dave, as you can readily tell, Donna wants to build them.
Doug Watts, Zombie | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 4:54 am | #

It's very hard to talk about race. I would imagine it's very hard to blog about race.
stella | 05.07.07 - 6:31 pm | #
---
No. It's actually very easy. Just tell the truth.
Doug Watts, Zombie | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 4:57 am | #

Nezua --

Great job, slagging off devoted progressives instead of the Right !! More like this, please !! God forbid the Left actually have a chance to control or even influence the actual policies of the Government before we start up the circular firing squad and attack each other.

Way to fight the real enemy !
Sob Bummerby | 05.08.07 - 6:59 am | #

Nezua seems to be setting himself up as a left-wing version of Joe Lieberman — scoring points by attacking his own side (points, but not those big DLC bucks — sorry Nez, I guess you’ll have to wait for the reconquista to hit that big Joementum-style payday).

Not that anyone is in a position to criticize you , god forbid — except maybe those Rwandan genocide victims who, if they could make it to a computer, might blog with righteous indignation that you had devoted not two, not one, but ZERO columns to the Rwandan genocide, or whatever else in the infinitude of conceivable worthy topics you’re also not writing about at any given moment.

And please, spare us the unctuous admission that you’re a “hypocrite” and you “haven’t arrived yet”. What’s the point of being an “unapologetic Mexican” if you’re going to get all apologetic, especially about a charge as vague as being a “hypocrite” who “hasn’t arrived yet” (though not nearly as stupid as charging a writer with not writing about what you think they should )?

Though if you want to apologize for being a silly, Joe-Lieberman-of-the-Left twat, go ahead.
Sob Bummerby | 05.08.07 - 7:31 am | #

Sob Bummerby:

I have not seen you here before, so I don't know if you get on this site a lot, but UnaMex get's criticized fairly regularly (and, at times, quite gratuitously) when he posts anything that isn't obviously humorous to some folks.

I can't refute your claims (besides, Nez usually handles that sort of thing pretty well) but I think the Rwandan situation was not being written about by most folks until after the massaceres had largely run their course. In any event they are certainly written about by lots of folks now.

I know what Donna and Nez are talking about. I've been in situations where my ruddy, Irish complexion included me for favorable treatment or excluded me from unfavorable treatment. Some of my forebears were on the short list for a free one way trip to Australia before emigrating to this country--but I have to tell people this story. My complexion doesn't give them enough information to formulate opinions re: my worth as a human being.

I think that both Nez and Donna (based only on my reading their blogs and the occassional e-mail between us) are extremely intelligent, hard-working and fair-minded people. That they are also outspoken and passionate about their views is obvious. I've been to both blogs enough times to get that the focus is "slanted"--they are, neither of them, coy about that--but, as the saying goes, "somebody's got to do it". I think I read Nez's post fairly carefully and I don't recall that he attacked Orcinis personally (or anyone else from his "own side"). He certainly didn't call him, "a silly, Joe-Lieberman-of-the-Left twat".

Speaking truth to power is not an exercise that should be limited to one's enemies.
democommie™™™™®© | 05.08.07 - 8:34 am | #

Donna, I could be misreading your post, but I'm afraid you have no idea how I teach about poverty; I teach students to see past stereotypes. Fortunately, the student body at my college is very diverse--there are many first generation college students, and quite a few who have experienced various disadvantages. A lot of different points of view get expressed. It's not all up to me to define the terms. In fact, we talk a lot about food stamps--and let's not forget cigarettes. The poor aren't even entitled to their addictions, much less the right to choose their own menus. God forbid that a low-wage worker should spend his last $6 on beer rather than putting it in a 401K.

Really, I get the sense, as I said before, that I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I don't talk to these students about inequality, who will? Their facebook friends?
stella | 05.08.07 - 9:02 am | #

Stella, we get that alot too, the damned if you do, damned if you don't. We are made to prove every day that we aren't inferior, that we aren't stupid, that we aren't lazy, that we aren't dangerous and criminal. I think you understand that, but I had to put it into words. Because these things are a daily occurance we do have a hard time trusting even friendly white people. People have all kinds of reasons to act friendly towards us and the worst are the ones trying to prove to themselves that they aren't racist when in fact they are. It's like I said about how once we challenge or disagree with them they turn on us. We are supposed to be the children they patronize and pat on the head, not equals in a discussion at that point.

I think what you are experiencing is the other end of that, you have to prove something to your SOC, prove that you can be trusted and that you aren't just another nice but patronizing lady who thinks you're better than they are.

At this point a racist would say to me, you people just want us to bow down to you and your demands and ideas, and tell you that you're always right and always perfect. But the real truth is that you don't have to agree with us, you have to allow us to disagree with you, the same way you would a white person.

I guess my advice would be, when your students tell you that you can't teach about poverty or race, ask why they think that (they might give you tips that you hadn't thought of that will help you teach), and then say ok that's your opinion, I hope to prove you wrong by the end of the semester, so let's get to work. You could even include a survey or automatic extra credit essay on why Ms Stella did a great/horrible job teaching about poverty. It would be more tips on how to improve or if you did well, like getting an award, and it's an extra point or two tacked on to their final grade. Everyone gets something!
Donna | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 10:14 am | #

Comparing Nezua with Lieberman is super irony enriched. YOU are the idiots who got corporate whores like Lieberman elected, rocket scientist. You are the ones who kept telling us that we needed to vote for everyone with a D after his or her name. Who cares about the issues??? They have a D after their name!!! And your ridiculous argument about why we had to do this? CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD! WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE! As I said, super irony enriched. You really need to get a new act.

We're past that. Some of us have figured out that we aren't all on the same side, that we would like to only vote for those with progressive principles, and get the Republican lite out of the Democratic party a long time ago. Glad you finally caught up with us, at least as far as Lieberman is concerned, there's lots more who are willing and able to stab their constituents in the back and play the game with the Republicans with their fundies and corporations on Capitol Hill for cash prizes.
Donna | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 10:29 am | #

YOU are the idiots who got corporate whores like Lieberman elected, rocket scientist. You are the ones who kept telling us that we needed to vote for everyone with a D after his or her name. Who cares about the issues??? They have a D after their name!!!

Not true -- I didn't. I didn't say anyone with a D after their name should be acceptable. And I don't think that either.

But:

(*) There's a big difference between (A) blindly supporting any nominal democrat (what you said I said people should do, which I don't think they should do), and (B) objecting to the mau-mauing of obviously committed, incredibly talented progressives like Orcinus (which is what Nezua in fact did).

(*) Criticizing any writer for what they didn't write about during any given time period (sorry -- didn't write about enough ) is such a risible, bad-faith criticism that I'm really disappointed to see it taken seriously in the first place.

(*) Considering Neiwert has the balls to actually put his name and real-life identity behind what he writes, it's hard to be impressed by someone coming and taking cheap shots from behind a mask and a pseudonym -- (again, cheap shots based on what Orcinus didn't write about).

(*) Yes, JC Christian is (hopefully) a pseudonym too -- but (a) the General is funny and (b) he makes fun of venal, malicious Right-wingers, he doesn't mau-mau progressives. There's a big difference there.

(*) Just because Neiwert is a kind, patient person and responded to this flaming turd of a blog post with forbearance instead of the bitch-slap it deserved, doesn't mean it didn't deserve one.
Sob Bummerby | 05.08.07 - 11:17 am | #

I think what you are experiencing is the other end of that, you have to prove something to your SOC, prove that you can be trusted and that you aren't just another nice but patronizing lady who thinks you're better than they are.
--------

Donna, you are right. With some kids this is the wall that has to be scaled before anything else can happen. I do my best.

On the one hand I understand the suspicion. I wrote in response to Nez one example of the sort of latent racism that still pervades the academic community--supposed to be one of the last bastions in which "liberals" can express themselves freely and teach young up-and-comers to think critically.

SOC find themselves unable to leave their race at the door of the classroom. And in my experience, many of them really want to. No wonder they are suspicious of their white teachers, when they discover over and over that many white teachers bring uncritical assumptions to the classroom.

So on the one hand I can really get the gist of this original post. I am similarly critical of many of my white "liberal" friends. I continue to learn every day about MY own blindness.

But we're not all equally blind and assuming, and many of us are doing hard work to "scale the walls." I'm not asking for love and admiration, just a willingness to see the difference between me and the unconscious racists who swarm around me like zombies.

I also share your contempt for many of the so-called "Dems" who hold office in this country. Like many I've been forced to vote for the lamp in the corner simply to avoid casting a vote for the greater of two evils. I vote Democrat, but I hardly identify with the party anymore. And even worse I live in a state [GA] where my vote doesn't matter anyway.
stella | 05.08.07 - 11:40 am | #

Sob, nominally supporting Democrats is what many of these A-listers do! Which means that neither those Democrats or their zombie (non-thinking support) blogger buddies deserves the time of day or any defense from anyone one of us. They are not on our side. Neither do the ones who tell us to get to the back of the bus and that once they get all the goodies they want eventually it will trickle down to the likes of us (your issues aren't important until all white America's are solved). You didn't believe it when the Reaganites told you their trickle down nonsense, why should we believe white people when they tell us theirs?

I do think that Nezua was surprised and disappointed that DNeiwert didn't cover the LA cops brutality, but come to find out that he was out of town, and he would have covered it if he had been home. Nezua was justified in being surprised and disappointed, even if he was unfair in not finding out why.

If you saw no one at the major blogs covering something you saw as important, for example the Iraq War, wouldn't you be angry at all of them? And when you see that one does cover it, and does get linked by those major blogs, if he or she missed a big story, you'd be disappointed too! This is your lifeline out into the wider world for getting important information disseminated!

I'll let you in on a little secret...it's not enough for us POC to talk amongst ourselves. We need middle class white people interested in solving racism, as well as poverty, gay rights, disability rights, etc. We need them involved in social justice issues. And we need more than lip service, it's not enough for liberals to say tsk tsk racism is bad but someday we will get around to it. I got more important things to worry about than the innocent children we are imprisoning at T.Don Hutto... (they can't wait centuries for this white utopia to trickle down to them).

Ummmmmmm aren't you using a pseudonym?
Donna | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 12:43 pm | #

Stella, that's what I'm talking about. I vote in every election and I vote a straight Dem ticket, but feel like I am throwing my vote away. I also know many apathetic people who don't vote at all. There doesn't seem to be much point when neither person will represent you or the things you care about. This is what makes me want to scream. It would be so easy to motivate voters if the Democrats would just throw a bone to social justice issues. It's not just people of color who are demoralized, it's labor, it's poor white people, it's liberal leaning women. The Republicans have had all their constituents juiced up for the last couple decades, and the Democrats, well...uh....hmmmm....not so much.
Donna | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 1:00 pm | #

Your cause is not advanced by attacking your allies for not being radical enough. That's all I'm saying.

Every interest group has this problem. Bar none. YOUR issue is the most important one in the world, because you face it EVERY DAY. You KNOW it is an issue that has to be addressed; your conception of American ideals demands it, because your issue is a case of the status quo being at complete variance with those ideals. It's even generally accepted that your issue is a legitimate one that deserves action. Why will no one recognize that your issue deserves conspicuous consideration, if not top billing among all the issues of the day?

Everyone has their own conception of American ideals. And everyone makes their own decisions about which issues raised by those ideals are highest priority. A HUGE determinant of how those priorities are decided is how each issue affects that person directly. If it's not something you deal with every day, it rates lower than issues you DO deal with every day. That's just human nature. I want MY problem dealt with, then I'll help you deal with yours.

So the challenge of getting Americans to stand up strongly for minority rights is complicated by the fact that these are, indeed, minorities. Most Americans are NOT discriminated against. Most Americans aren't targets of racial fear and prejudice. So asking these privileged Americans to get all excited about racial injustice that doesn't affect them directly is a tall order. You have to build your case (IMHO) by continuously educating about how racial discrimination continues to be a problem you face every day, by showing over and over how this is an abomination in the face of American ideals that supposedly everyone, even the privileged majority, believes in very strongly. And it can take what probably is an unreasonably long time to get those people to realize it, but eventually, if they are rational and ethical, they will.

But I think it is unreasonable to expect that privileged, protected majority people will naturally rise up and advocate for an issue that the majority does not have to deal with every day. There are very few John Browns who spring up like that. Those that do are seen as radicals, "out of the mainstream," as indeed they are, at least initially. The challenge is to get the "mainstream" position to be YOUR position. I don't think you do that by assailing people who are your target audience for not all being John Browns, or by hounding your natural allies for not being enthusiastic enough.

I'm not saying you should STFU about race on the A-list blogs; just the opposite. You should talk about it all the time. You should go on them and comment all the time about how race relates to other issues being discussed, and I don't mean just saying "well what do you expect since X are racists." You need to explain in detail how race affects each issue. YOU are the best qualified to speak about race, you POCs, and you need to take the lead in doing that. Nezua should be out blog-whoring for all he's worth, getting people from the A-list blogs to pass by his site and see how good his writing is, not wasting his time whining about how David Neiwert doesn't talk enough about race and how "safe" he is.
liberalrob | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 1:01 pm | #

Here's your choices, Donna:

1) Vote for the guy with the D after his name, and have a 20% chance of getting action;

2) Vote for the guy with the R after his name, and have a 0% chance of getting action;

3) Don't vote at all, and be irrelevant.

You are free to choose how to proceed.

I suppose there is another choice:

4) Vote for Ralph Nader or Bozo the Clown, and watch the guy with the R after his name win.

And, of course, I can't leave out:

5) Advocate for armed revolution. Good luck with that.

You have a much better chance with the guy with the D after his name. And you can even work towards getting a different guy with a higher percentage of being on your side on the ballot. but even if that doesn't work, I think you need to think carefully before declaring a pox on all their houses.
liberalrob | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 1:21 pm | #

Yeah, this was weird. Good, but weird. Weird because this story wouldn't have been covered but for the blogs. The only place I saw this when it first happened was so-called big box blogs--I think specifically a rec'd diary on dkos and then found links to more complete coverage in the comments.

It's certainly true that lefty blogs don't fight on immigration very hard. But that's true of almost every discrete issue. I'd like to see better coordination and more ideas on immigration. But I'd also like to see it on gay rights. And the environment. And anti-poverty work. And health care. And abortion rithts and contraception issues. It's not fair to say that immigration is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing ever and expect not argument. Is it because of number? Are there more illegal immigrants than gay people? Is the suffering of illegal immigrants definitively worse than other poor, oppressed groups in this country?

The basic thrust of the "upper blogosphere" and its focus on U.S. politics is that the sickness in our mainstream political climate and discourse is the biggest single problem contributing to all of this suffering, and that the most effective way to alleviate that suffering is to 1) bannish the GOP to the wilderness for the next generation and 2) hold Democrats accountable so they don't sell out those that are oppressed for those that come bearing campaign contributions.

OTOH, this post is dead-on with a concern that I think is widely ahred among all of us who have high hopes for the blogs and their role in today's progressive ascendancy. It's a similar thought to the ones that animated the discussion of Chait's anti-blog rant last week. The fact of the matter is that changing the faces in the seats in D.C. will probably not get us very far in achieving much on any of our issues. It's an achievable goal on a relatively short, fixed timeline. Politics generally benefits from having fundamental metrics and statistics which make progress and "victories" easier to evaluate. But without a fundamental change in thinking on many of these issues we can't expect to change much.

And then the piece goes to identify what I see as the most fundamental change that must occur on the immigation issue. Immigrants must find a space for their voice and their image to be portrayed, and I do think the blogs have a role to play there. Probably the most pernicious force working against Mexicans immigrants is the reflexive tendency of U.S. political discourse to de-humanize and other them. The image of immigration right now is a disheveled, de-hyderated brown person talking to a border control agent or day laborers standing on a street corner. It's a disconnected misrepresentation of the reality of illegal immigrants in this country. The extent immigrants can become humanized and accurately portrayed in our media will help to move the conversation in this country toward solutions that honor and respect that humanity.

And meanwhile, to the extent big blogs use the language and framing of the media's discussion of immigration they reinforce that othered, image of immigrant as silent object. So blogs need to take steps to give voice to illegal immigrant stories and to push back on those frames in the media. But w won't get far on the blogs. A truly transcendant blog post can have an effect, but for every one of those, there are many more that simply serve as a means of distributing information to the community that reads. Race is such a visual phenomenon that the real face of immigrants has to make the leap to TV. I think a documentary series on discovery or the like would be awesome. The episode of 30 days when they took the Minuteman to live with the family of immigrants is the model for the type of thing I mean. We need to get more people like the kids in that family to a wider American audience. Or the Mexican American girl in Spellbound. Her own story is the story of an immigrant's dream for her family. Those kinds of representations have to multiply in our TVs and then we will start to see hearts and minds opening to the humanity of the immigrants who's faces appear in Lou Dobb's b-roll footage of border agents and fences.
MSB | 05.08.07 - 1:24 pm | #

liberalrob, if you think that things like immigration rights and race issues don't affect the white majority in this country, you really ought to do more research. The issues that POC talk about and anti-immigrant, anti-poc legislation negatively affect the U.S. socially, economically, and the freedoms of the U.S. — AS A WHOLE. Not just POC.

Do you really think that the war in Iraq and Bush's refusal to cosider pulling out ISN'T a race issue? It's nothing more than the White Man's Burden (see Kipling's poem of the same name).

We don't want some token inclusion, we want you to hear us and understand that the issues that affect us affect everyone. Telling us that other issues are more important is a cop-out. The "important" issues are connected to race and class, not just Bush. Telling people doing anti-racist work and working on behalf of immigrant rights that they need to stop pushing their issues is doing exactly what Bushco wants, because race and class issues are at the root of the problems faced in America today, from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and freedom of speech to anti-immigrant legislation (including new limits being placed on legal immigration, such as an act targetting Asian families, the denial of the right of Filipino American vets to sponsor their families as they were promised in the 1940s!!!, raising the cost of immigration fees by more than 60%, and all of the taxes we pay to fund ICE, the Border Patrol, a big wall, raids, Hutto, coverups of human rights abuses, etc.).

Writing this off as a race issue is no better than the people who fought for freedom from the British only to decide that slavery was legal and slaves were 3/5ths of a person, or the people who ignored the genocide of Native Americans because we were in a Civil War/rebuilding the South, or of Filipinos in the Philippine-American War because deciding whether the U.S. takeover was justified imperialism or not was more important. It's all connected, it's all relevent, and writing off one issue because another is more important is b.s.

And yet we're expected to support Amanda Marcotte when she's slurred by Donahue, or Kathy Sierra when she's threatened online (still haven't seen any outcry about the treatment of Devious Diva or Nadia of No Snow Here on the A-List blogs ...).
Vox | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 4:08 pm | #

MSB: I think a better response would be to banish both major political parties to the wilderness and start getting some people into politics who aren't working for big businesses (or did everyone miss that the House Dems voted to keep U.S. pharmeceutical companies in power, too? Lobbies 16287162, Dems 0). Every single Democratic candidate has a position on immigration; every one has a position that is only pro-immigrant if one assumes that all immigrants can afford U.S. immigration fees.

POC don't have a better chance with either party. Both have shown that they will kick POC (and poor people, and gays) to the curb for votes and lobbyist money.
Vox | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 4:19 pm | #

Vox:
"Telling us that other issues are more important is a cop-out."

Hey, I'm not the one telling you that, that's what the 71-percenters are saying. To the majority of white America, other issues ARE more important. That's why you're not getting any traction, and I'm telling you that POCs have to take the lead in raising awareness if they want action; whining about how the A-listers are silent and/or ignoring you isn't going to get you anywhere.

"I think a better response would be to banish both major political parties to the wilderness..."

Good luck with that. And is immigration the only race issue, or even the most important one?
liberalrob | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 6:50 pm | #

"Really, though, I think Nezua is expecting too much from the "A-list" blogs. We have a bazillion things to think about already; there's a WAR in Iraq, we're trying to get white Americans to recognize that the Bush administration has not been acting in their best interests (I just had a blog argument with someone who insisted that Bush was "just protecting me from myself"), keep the momentum for more and deeper investigations of the festering malfeasance that 6 years of lack of Congressional oversight has allowed, and start gearing up for the 2008 election cycle." — liberalrob

Hmm, so you're NOT saying that the War in Iraq, getting white Americans to blah blah Bush blah, Congressional etc. is more important than race issues? Or was that just someone posting under your handle?

Immigration is not the only "race issue" out there. I did mention the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan; there's also the criminalization of children of color (try Googling "Desre'e Watkins"), the racist threats received by Sen. Barack Obama, media representation, political representation, representation in school curriculum (I'm actually studying this in the process of getting my master's degree in education, and it's absolutely ridiculous the lack of information about MAJOR FIGURES in U.S. history in textbooks — many have tons of information about John Brown but little more than a sentence about black leaders in the abolition movement like Harriet Tubman), racism in the media (it's not even close to just Imus), failure to enforce hate crime legislation, failure to investigate hate crimes, police brutality against people of color (such as the Iranian-American student who was tased several times for leaving a library as he was told to do and not being able to stand up), etc.

I stuck to immigration, mainly, because Nezua's post was about immigration. There is a ton out there. And it affects everyone, not just people of color.

Seriously, if police in riot gear had shot rubber bullets and tear gas into a peaceful rally against the war, it would have been all over every liberal blog within minutes. I remember times it's happened, too. Why does the response change when it's about immigration? The actions of the police aren't any different.

Wake up.
Vox | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 7:11 pm | #

Pardon me, "Desre'e Watson." I keep doing that. :-/
Vox | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 7:40 pm | #

[quote]Seriously, if police in riot gear had shot rubber bullets and tear gas into a peaceful rally against the war, it would have been all over every liberal blog within minutes.[/quote]

If that had happened in LA, maybe there would be an uproar.

But that's not what happened in LA. Some of the people at the protest were busy throwing rocks, bottles, cans and trash at the cops. One LAPD officer was pulled off his motorcycle. LAPD let the protest continue for several hours despite this violence.

LAPD handled things badly. They should have allowed more time for the protesters to disperse, and had no reason to fire rubber bullets into the crowd. But to pretend this was simply police officers violently shutting down a peaceful protest, and nothing more?

Good luck with that.
L2P | 05.08.07 - 8:24 pm | #

There are a couple of jerks at every protest. The police should have arrested those few jerks and moved on, not fired tear gas and rubber bullets into a crowd that included thousands of peaceful protesters.

Students threw rocks at National Guardsmen back on May 4th, 1970 at Kent State. So many were hurling rocks at one jeep that that group of Guardsmen had to retreat. Does that justify the Guard firing into a crowd of protesters? Nope.

Why is this different? Yes, the guns were firing rubber bullets and tear gas canisters in L.A., but police were still firing into crowds of innocent protesters, not just the stone throwers, and there is even video of police firing into crowds that included shoppers — innocent bystanders. And beating the media with batons. A Fox newscaster was hospitalized. The peaceful protesters fired upon included young children, some in strollers.

There is no excuse that makes that can justify that.
Vox | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 9:09 pm | #

There are a couple of jerks at every protest. The police should have arrested those few jerks and moved on, not fired tear gas and rubber bullets into a crowd that included thousands of peaceful protesters.

Students threw rocks at National Guardsmen back on May 4th, 1970 at Kent State. So many were hurling rocks at one jeep that that group of Guardsmen had to retreat. Does that justify the Guard firing into a crowd of protesters? Nope.

Why is this different? Yes, the guns were firing rubber bullets and tear gas canisters in L.A., but police were still firing into crowds of innocent protesters, not just the stone throwers, and there is even video of police firing into crowds that included shoppers — innocent bystanders. And beating the media with batons. A Fox newscaster was hospitalized. The peaceful protesters fired upon included young children, some in strollers.

There is no excuse that makes that can justify that.
Vox | Homepage | 05.08.07 - 9:44 pm | #

Fascinating read, Nezua. You've brought up excellent points and I love the way you've pulled threads from other bloggers to elaborate and deepen your argument. When community happens on the internets, it happens through just such methods. Where others have made a point more effectively, we can pull from their efforts. Very cool.

One thing that touched me in particular was the discussion about adoption. I am the daughter of an adoptee and the mother of two adopted daughters.

Stella, I want to say a couple things to your points. First, for a better understanding of the damage done by cross-cultural adoption, there is extensive research existing about Native American children who were "adopted" (in actuality, pretty much stolen) and lived in white communities in the 60s and 70s. It was very common here in Minnesota. The dire consequences for the children, the families and the community were studied and reported extensively and led to many positive changes in our adoption system.

As for looking at adoption as noble, well, not so much. Our decision was based on not wanting to become pregnant and not being particularly enamored of babies. We love children, wanted to share our lives with children and knew our limitations. Our experience had its problems and was unbelievably rewarding. We met and shared our lives with two amazing, fascinating and inspiring girls who are now making their own way in the world as young adults.

About the police riot against the Mayday activists, I want to point out two things. First off, I was surprised and impressed by Bill Maher's take on his HBO show last week. He said that given everything that's going on in the world, it's entirely appropriate for Americans to be out in the street protesting. And then he said (please imagine this being delivered with great comic timing), that's what we've come to expect in this world: Mexicans doing the jobs that American citizens can't be bothered to do. (ta dum dum spish!).

More to the point. This is not an us/them struggle. This is exactly the way state forces work to diminish our rights. They start with the most vulnerable among us. If we accept the cops' rights to attack hundreds of innocent people because of the misbehavior or one or two people, then we'll have no right to complain when it's our turn to have our rights stomped on.
Ravenmn | Homepage | 05.10.07 - 10:46 pm | #

Raven, thank you for leading me towards some studies that can help ME better understand the situation. I want to reiterate,though, that from the very beginning, I was never dismissive of the problems of cross-cultural adoption. I don't need to be convinced that such adoptions are potentially problematic. My objections were to Nezua's presentation of one experience as THE experience.

I can't imagine that anyone who reads blogs like this one would argue that the rich don't harvest the poor around the globe, and that cross-cultural adoptions aren't another example of this; and it is fine for Nezua to point out that many people are blinded by their good intentions to the potential harm they may do. He could have said as much. Instead he painted with broad strokes and left little room for any rational discussion of a complex problem. [I'm talking about the ORIGINAL post]

This has been a very interesting discussion, though, and it's inspired me to do some thinking about the topic.
stella | 05.11.07 - 9:52 am | #

liberalrob: Here's your choices, Donna:

1) Vote for the guy with the D after his name, and have a 20% chance of getting action;

2) Vote for the guy with the R after his name, and have a 0% chance of getting action;

3) Don't vote at all, and be irrelevant.

Umm, so voting is the only way in which "action" happens? Sheesh, even Madison/Publius stated that social change is the responsibility of the people, not the politicians. Politics is a lagging indicator of change. Change hearts and minds, and it won't matter who gets voted in. That's the way the republic was designed. Thus endeth the lesson.
captain obvious | 05.18.07 - 1:27 am | #