Dr. Blosser,
Is there any way that one could obtain a copy of transcripts of the conference?
The proceedings will be published in a future edition of The Lutheran Forum. Tapes of individual lectures may be obtained for $5/tape by writing the Ms. Beverly Hefner, P.O. Box 7349, Center for Theology, Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC 28603.
Dr. Phil,
Do you see any sort of institutional effect on some of these Protestant denominations in the conversion of so many pastors (I may be wrong here) to either the Catholic or Orthodox churches? From a distance, it almost seems like a sword of Damocles hanging over such proceedings as the one you report on.
Phil:
As an attendee, I was particularly struck by the apparent obliviousness of some of the speakers. Fr Newman was terrific, of course; but Dr. Haeming seemed oblivious not only to his arguments but also to those of her fellow Lutheran Senn. And I don't understand why Senn doesn't become Catholic, unless he fears losing his pension!
Best,
Mike
Michael, there are _many_ troubled ELCA Lutherans where Dr. Senn is vis-a-vis the Catholic Church. As many converts have testified, however, one needs more than negative reasons to repel one from what is leaving in order to convert: and one has to truly understand that the Catholic Faith is more than what faithful Lutherans bemoan as the lost "orthodox" faith of the Lutheran confessions, as good as that may be. One has to come to the conviction that Catholicism is the "Santa Fe" the Holy Faith of Holy Mother Church. Only then do things fall into place. I think this was the difficulty of the late and otherwise in many ways great ELCA Bishop McDaniel who founded the Center. He came to the point of desiring conversion, but only under the misapprehension that the Catholic Church had come around to embracing traditional Lutheranism. Then when he was confronted by Pope John Paul II granting a plenary indulgence during the Jubilee Year of 2000 and saying things about the Blessed Mother's intercessory prayers for our salvation, it came as a cold slap in the face. Nevertheless, on his deathbed he asked for the Catholic bishop of Charlotte.
Senn is a member of The Society of the Holy Trinity, a fraternity of conservative Lutheran pastors founded by McDaniel along with others before his death. This fraternity is perceived as a lifeline for many Lutheran clergy, yet many still feel themselves in a kind of limbo, in a church or denomination from which they feel alienated. Many would like to convert to Catholicism or Orthodoxy but haven't quite made their peace with either yet. Orthodoxy seems too non-Western, though it doesn't have the ordinary stigmas associated with Catholicism in the anti-Catholic history of the Protestant and post-Enlightenment West. Catholicism is Western, but has the stigma, plus the difficulty of doctrines that require considerable effort to work through and are prima facie refractory and counter-intuitive particularly to the denominatinally-formed American mind.
But if you keep an eye on things, you will eventually begin to see things happen, I'm convinced.
As a means of transition, it would be nice to see a form of Lutheran Use Churches, in the style and frame of the Anglican Use Churches. However, an Orthodox priest has on occasion mentioned that the Western Rite among the Orthodox is losing popularity because of the richness of the Divine Liturgy.
I'm grateful for having learned about this conference through your blog. I have never attended one of these before this year and it was well worth the trip from Winston-Salem.
During one of the intersessions I spoke with the Lutheran pastor sitting to my right. It was hard to distinguish the pastors of the western traditions. This LCMS pastor from Greensboro was agreeing with Dr. Senn's advice to "appeal to Rome" especially in matters of ethics. He bemoaned the seeker-sensitivity that has entered many LCMS churches lately, and how fewer and fewer of them had any liturgy at all to speak of. I was surprised at his candid comments.
I was amused with Dr. Haemig's inability to answer questions without getting defensive. I was awed by Fr. Reardon's speaking. And as a Catholic, I was greatly impressed with Fr. Newman's talk. I will look forward to hearing him again, if not at future conferences at Lenoir-Rhyne, then elsewhere.
As a Lutheranish person (can't really claim a denomination since I was an atheist six months ago), I fall into the category of would like to be a Catholic, but... category. My biggest but is the music and liturgy at different masses I have attended (admittedly not many). I've encountered some really cheesy music, and you can forget a four part harmony. Not that it is relevant when no one is singing.
My second complaint is no bulletin. I mean, how the heck am I supposed to know what is going on? I can't hear what is going on well enough to understand the liturgy without having it in front of my face. The funny thing is I'll see people search in vain through worship book (as I do), trying to find out where we are. These books are apparently just there for show, as all the regulars just ignore them.
I'm holding out hope that my experience is not universal. But it seems to show a kind of clerical indifference that I find downright depressing.
Yes, there are a lot of bad Catholic parishes like the one(s) you're talking about. But there are many good ones too. I pray you can find one.
As a Lutheranish person (can't really claim a denomination since I was an atheist six months ago), I fall into the category of would like to be a Catholic, but... category. My biggest but is the music and liturgy at different masses I have attended (admittedly not many). I've encountered some really cheesy music, and you can forget a four part harmony. Not that it is relevant when no one is singing.
Trust me, Jacob -- bad music is run-of-the-mill for contemporary American Catholicism these days (read the book Why Catholics Can't Sing). =)
But you describe this as "[your] biggest" obstacle to entering -- I trust you are kidding. If not, why hesitate? I value good liturgy and good hymns as much as the next guy, but if this is indeed the "the faith of Holy Mother Church" founded by Christ, why hesitate? . . . fortunately I have a decent parish, but while I've had to endure many an atrocious hymn since my conversion, despite a sentimental longing for the good singing of old I'm thankful to have 'crossed the Tiber.'
Look for a good parish, but if you have to stomach some bad singing in the meantime, offer it up as a sacrifice to Our Lord. =)
Jacob,
I agree with Christopher. They can dumb down the hymns. They can dumb down the liturgy. They can double dumb down the rubric. Can, have, and do. But they can't dumb down the Eucharist. Grit your teeth, and remember what you're there for. Watch the Mass as celebrated on EWTN. If that seems more edifying than the typical parish ensemble of Fr Groovemaster and His Rooty Toot Rhythm Meisters, give your pastor an earful about it. If he does not respond, I would not feel the least bit hesitant about moving on in search of a pastor who does.
MOre immediately relevant, it would seem to me, is the fact that cheesy music often is a symptom of a generalized hatred of or ignorance of what the Church teaches. Accordingly, someone wanting to come into the Church will find all kinds of obstacles in the very staff whose job it is to help him come home.
Jacob, if you can take this advice: take the plunge. Swim the Tiber. I was finally admitted to Holy Mother Church 11 years ago this past All Saints Day. I expected little or no change in myself, since I hubristically assumed I already had all the faith I needed. I held out hope that music would improve -- and it didn't in most parishes, but did in some -- and that God would do the rest. Eleven years later, let me assure you that I'm glad I took the plunge. I wasn't admitted until my third attempt. (One was cancelled on Palm Sunday).
Ask Our Lady to lead you home.
Chris
It isn't merely liturgical aesthetics that keep me from becoming a Catholic. My problem is twofold:
1)Catholicism is somewhat foreign to me.
2)Deep down inside, I have not been persuaded that the Catholic church occupies such a unique place in Christianity. Essentially I am in the position of the STS Lutherans that Phil described. Maybe I'm biased since my uncle was one of the founding members.
Of course, problem 1 has a lot to do with problem 2. I could just do as Christopher suggests and bite the bullet. It would be all the harder since I recently found a Lutheran church with an unbelievable music program. The organist and the choral director are both U of I profs with a strong baroque background.
So I tell you what - one of my office mates goes to the campus Catholic church, which I understand to have the best liturgy. I went there twice and didn't hate the liturgy. Just that I was lost the entire mass (mainly due to bad PA). So I'll attend mass there for a month and see.
The Newman Center at the University of Illinois-Champaign/Urbana (if that's the U of I you mean) is pretty good, I hear. Hopefully the liturgy at the campus Mass also will be well done.
Dear Dr. Blosser,
You say Bishop McDaniel, on his deathbed, asked for the Catholic bishop of Charlotte. Did he ask for him to console? Confess? Convert to Catholicism?
Just wondering. In the hour of our death, truth rises and the soul is often given grace.
Mr. Edwards-Ronning,
I wish I were privy to what transpired between the Bishop of Charlotte and the late, greate Bishop McDaniel. I was not. Anything else one hears is only rumor. Pax tibi.
Jacob,
As a former Episcopalian and Chorister, I understand what you mean about music being a large part of your worship. I, too, delayed my conversion because of the music usually heard in most Catholic churches. Current music at Mass is often bad theology and unsingable music. This comparison was all the more pronounced as my Episcopal Church choir was excellent, world famous organist/choir director, european tour, singing EACH WEEK a biggish offeratory and 3-5 motets at communion by Mozart, Palestrenia, Brahms, Stanford, Lauridsen, Byrd, Tallis--you know, all the beautiful music. However, a Dominican sister asked me one time when I was going to convert, and I said that I couldn't leave the music yet. She asked "What does that have to do with the Truth?" I really didn't have much to say back to that and within a year had converted. I must say that she was correct. The True Presence is more than enough. You will find that once you have Our Lord in the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and the Truth the Catholic Church teaches, you won't miss the music nearly as much as you think now.
Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother will give you the graces you need. What you receive is infinitely more than what you think you will give up. And you can always crank up your CD player at home with a glass of sherry and sing along.
Alice
Hi.
". . . John Henry Cardinal Newman's seven 'notes' or criteria for judging whether a development was in organic continuity with the apostolic tradition of the past or a heretical deformation . . .."
If you would be so good as to post a citation for that, I would be most appreciative. I would like to read it.
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