Before the dumping begins, you might want to read the next post after this one on Bill's blog - about the man dying of thirst, and his "friends" just watching him.
I think that is about more than he says directly.
Working for the Church is hard, and dangerous to faith.
I was going to leave a comment--something about it sounding like a negative thing rather than a postive one--but after reading Terry's above, I realize I don't have to.
Poor fellow! God bless him.
Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston
To what extent did he allow his Adventist misgivings to rub off, as he pocketed his diocesan paycheck?
All right, no more.
As a former member of a sect called the Worldwide Church of God, a close cousin of the Seventh-Day Adventist sect, I can only say how sad this us. I didn't even know Bill Cork used to be a follower of the false prophetess Ellen G. White. There have got to be some serious issues going on with him if he is capable of once again putting his trust in an institution that he knows depends entirely upon a broken reed. After all, that what so much of Adventist life and teaching is built on: "Trust us."
Where does one find Seventh Day Adventism in the historical record of the early Church????
I can sorta understand how a Catholic can become Eastern Orthodox, but SDA???
It's always sad to see a fellow Catholic convert give into despair about the Church, especially since I've been tempted with a similar desire to return to my Evangelical roots many times. Knowing that all my family and friends would welcome me back with open arms makes it that much harder to remain poped.
St. Francis de Sales, ora pro nobis.
Well, since he used to be an SDA and his family are still SDA, it's not all that surprising that he would revert to the errors he was raised to believe.
I left a comment on one of his posts concerning religious liberty. It seems he has a problem with clear changes in doctrine that would be concerning ordinary magisterial teaching. Cardinal Dulles noted in "Authority and Conscience" the dangers of errors in teaching reformable teaching as infallible: "Such an excessive emphasis could overtax the individual's capacity to assent and could lead to a real crisis of faith in the event of a later change of doctrine."
I think that's precisely what has happened here.
I've taken a look at Bill Cork's weblog to see the way that he has "been laying out theological and ecclesial issues over the past two months that were contributing factors to [his] loss of trust in the authority of Rome and the Catholic Magisterium." It's generally pretty facile stuff -- objections to Church infallibility or other matters of past and present doctrine and practice, and even complaining that the Vatican has publicly objected to an Italian comedian's mockery of the Church in a climate in which prelates are receiving death threats. To me, it raises a serious question: how come, after all these years, he hadn't already contemplated and resolved those issues? Furthermore, what was he doing in youth adult and campus ministry if he, with graduate degrees in history, apparently had no solid grasp of Catholic doctrine?
Well, I think he DID contemplate and resolve those issues -- but there are other things at play now that cause him to make a big deal out these things. Much as Rod Dreher's doctrinal objections to Catholicism feel "tacked on" to the real issues, which are more emotional and spiritual, that's how Bill Cork's objections feel to me.
"Such an excessive emphasis could overtax the individual's capacity to assent and could lead to a real crisis of faith in the event of a later change of doctrine."
"I think that's precisely what has happened here."
I don't. Bill Cork converted to Catholicism long after Vatican II's pastoral recasting of the Church's infallible social doctrines regarding religious liberty. There has been no change in Church teaching this year that would have led to a crisis in Bill's faith. His crisis of faith probably has some other reason or reasons, which then led him to start spotlighting this apparent contradiction and that apparent contradiction, setting him on an accelerating path out of the Body of Christ.
I've met Bill a handful of times (and know tons of people who know him) and he is a pleasant and engaging fellow. This is very sad.
Regarding his work in Catholic college ministry in the Houston area, I've seen some of the fruits and they seem very good indeed.
That said, I suspect there are an enormous number of other issues at work here. After all, Bill has been Seventh Day Adventist, Lutheran, Catholic, Lutheran, Catholic, and, now, Seventh Day Adventist. As I recall, he even changed the title of his blog a lot.
As for Bill's "setting out" of issues on his blog, that is, to put it as gently as possible, laughable. Bill keeps a tight rein on his blog comments and it's rather difficult to get much through his moderation. I realized something serious was up when he started citing that nut who lives in a motor home, Tom Drolesky, as an authority on Church teaching. Bill was always really hard on trads of any sort, but all of a sudden he is citing them as authorities on Church teaching. Give me a break.
As for "dying of thirst with water all around," Bill was a cooperator of Opus Dei, quite close friends with many, many priests in the diocese (at least they considered HIM a friend), so I would venture to guess that the means were there, if he had any interest in using them.
As people have said, the only thing to do is to pray. But, all this is to say, don't think that the arguments for the Catholic Church are any less "built on a rock" than they were before Bill departed. I strongly suspect what we need to pray for is the resolution of some more personal issues.
"After all, Bill has been Seventh Day Adventist, Lutheran, Catholic, Lutheran, Catholic, and, now, Seventh Day Adventist."
Aha! Yes, I thought he had been a Lutheran, but didn't know he'd started out as an SDA. This chronic vacillating among different kinds of Christian religion is a very, very serious problem, indicative of some major troubles in his spiritual life. Yes, he needs our prayers even more than I realised.
Terry stated, "Working for the Church is hard, and dangerous to faith." True, and so is going to many Catholic colleges, attending bad liturgies and living through priest scandals, etc., etc., etc..When Walker Percy was often asked why he was a Catholic he responded, "What else is there!"
And, I believe Dr. Blosser said something to this effect a few months ago, I could not leave the Catholic Church because I could not leave HIM, the Eucharistic Lord! Yes, the Bible is God's Word but Jesus is more fully present in one small piece of the Eucharist than he is in all of creation or the entire Body of Christ.
One thing from reading his blog over the last few months, it appears as if Bill often thought that he was his own magisterium on a number of issues!
I sure hope Bill logs onto this and feels your good Catholic love and concern. It surely would make him want to come back.
I hope so, MER. I pray so.
You know, as with all of life, there is a difference between a thing and one's idea of a thing. I suspect many people fall in love with Catholic ideas and with the idea of being Catholic...but the thing itself, the reality, is mixed with brokenness, sin, betrayal, superficiality, banality, and institutional rot.
It is a real challenge to love the Church with her dirt, warts, bloody knees, scandals and all...perhaps many (inside and outside the Catholic Church) are not ready for that.
MER,
One doesn't want to be uncharitable in these situations, but correcting error is a work of charity. Of course, there are people who will take this as a license to get in peoples' faces and be obnoxious. Nevertheless, the duty remains. It may not be fun or involve soft, warm hugs, but it's still charity.
"After all, Bill has been Seventh Day Adventist, Lutheran, Catholic, Lutheran, Catholic, and, now, Seventh Day Adventist."
Not quite... Bill was raised SDA and later became Lutheran (ELCA), and later after that was received into the Catholic Church. As a Lutheran, he was also ordained to the ministry. The good, solid fruit of his service here in Houston as Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry is clear. Please pray for him and his family.
"Bill keeps a tight rein on his blog comments and it's rather difficult to get much through his moderation." This is very true. I quit posting on his blog because if he just didn't agree with your post it would never appear. In one sense I was shocked of his apostasy, but there were a number of occasions in which he still hung to his Adventist roots.
"...but the thing itself, the reality, is mixed with brokenness, sin, betrayal, superficiality, banality, and institutional rot."
Well said! Such a description sounds rather biblical to me, from the history of Israel right through the New Testament. God inspired and used broken human vessels to write the Truth contained in Scripture, he continues to do so today through the Church.
I agree, Rick -- MER's comment really gets to the heart of things. Catholicism looks so beautiful on paper, but in the to and fro of everyday life, living the Catholic faith often doesn't look beautiful at all.
All the more reason to remember how we can do nothing without God's grace, and how much we depend on Him to keep us safe in the faith.
I should preface that: God inspires the Church today through its broken vessels...
Well, one thing for certain: the late Fr. F.X. Schouppe S.J. (for all his alleged faults) was the Catholic, and Mr. Bill Cork was not.
==
Yes, this sad development does provide some context to Bill Cork's ill-thought-out objections to past popular conceptions of purgatory based on private revelations of saints. Apparently that was part of his loss of faith.
But perhaps he never quite knew just what religion it was that he'd converted to. Amy Welborn has what may be a relevant comment from a Protestant who is unhappy that evangelical theologian Dr. Francis Beckwith has just returned to the Catholic Church:
"I have this theory that a large plurality of evangelicals who become Roman Catholics think they’re becoming Lutherans. I mean, a lot of them think they’re getting a historic liturgy, ancient practice, and an evangelical understanding of grace with a sacramental package providing assurance. But what they’re really getting is crappy Marty Haugen rites, medieval novelty, and dogmatic doubt. I mean, you almost never see evangelicals swimming the Tiber because they’re really excited about being able to get indulgences, sacrificing Masses to get their grandmas out of purgatory, or doubting whether they’re in the state of grace."
Jordan Potter wrote: "To me, it raises a serious question: how come, after all these years, he hadn't already contemplated and resolved those issues? Furthermore, what was he doing in youth adult and campus ministry if he, with graduate degrees in history, apparently had no solid grasp of Catholic doctrine?"
Good question. I appreciate seeing most of the comments here ... it came as a surprise to me to hear that he was going back to Adventism, and left me quite disturbed about the insights I've gained from him over the years.
We should just remember that he's acting out of his conscience, and with the doubts that have crept into his faith, perhaps he needs to jump ship to keep his faith in Christ alive.
Everyone has struggles with their faith, and he is only trying to maintain the relationship with Christ that the doubts prevent him from doing in the visible Church.
We should await the time when we can welcome him back, because his membership in the invisible Church won't have disappeared.
I should have written:
"Well, one thing *seems* certain..."
Thanks.
==
Unfortunately, Patrick Rothwell had a similar experience to what I recounted about Bill Cork's willingness to really lay out his reasons on his blog and engage his commenters.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...1327594/
#876286
Again, just more reason to pray.
I would be surprised if big part of this wasn't the lack of religious unity with his wife and kids. The most recent story on his blog, about his son's time in jail and the man who protected him, indicate that his decision may have been more emotional than rational. I don't even mean that in a bad way. The man is human, after all.
Going after Ellen G. White? How could anyone named "Ellen G. White" be a believable founder of a religion?
Reminds me of old Tertullian running off after Montanus, that famous old incarnation of the Holy Spirit.
Geez Louise!
"I mean, you almost never see evangelicals swimming the Tiber because they’re really excited about being able to get indulgences, sacrificing Masses to get their grandmas out of purgatory, or doubting whether they’re in the state of grace."
Umm, that's why I swam the Tiber. Especially the sacrificial nature of the mass and avoiding the sin of presumption.
As much as Bill's decision grieves me, when I read his lateset post - about his OCD son, and knowing that his wife was Adventist through all these years, and his parents are...I really can't heap more abuse on the man. Pray that he returns - with his family. But there's obviously a lot of pain there.
I know next to nothing about Mr. Cork. I've seeen his blog--in passing--maybe two times, max.
But I cannot believe that he will be satisfied with something as kooky as Adventism after having been Catholic. And I cannot conceive how one could object to popular notions about Purgatory yet swallow the faux prophecies of Ellen G. White. There's a disconnect there!
I will keep him and his family in my prayers. And I will especially pray for his son, the OCD sufferer. I have OCD, so I know how horrible it can be. For me, Luvox (an SSRI) was a lifesaver. I hope Mr. Cork's son can also find such a lifesaver. (I know nothing of his story, having not yet visited his blog re all this....)
I was very cheezed when I found out Bill left the Church largely because of the propaganda stick Bob Sungenis will use against Michael Forrest & co. OTOH since the charge against Sungenis' extremeism has been taken up by traditionalists I'm at least glad that if Bill had to apostatize he at least did it now & not before RSATJ went online.
I hope God gives Bill the grace to realize that what he's doing is not good for his soul. I don't know how to deal with his lack of reason since I don't see any reason to join a religion unless you believe it is true. I'm certainly not Catholic because I always enjoy it, of course when I don't enjoy it the fault is with me. But where am I going to go? You alone, Lord Jesus, have the words that lead to eternal life. How can I go anywhere other than your Church? What would be the point?
Remind me again, who is that famous ex-Catholic who left the Church & someone asked him if he would now join a Protestant church. He responded "Sir I have lost my faith, not my reason."
James Joyce.
"We should await the time when we can welcome him back, because his membership in the invisible Church won't have disappeared."
Er, yes it has. Duh. Nice to see in all the "charity" no one had the, er, charity, to point out that Mr. Cork, in making a considered, deliberate act to reject Peter has just placed himself *absolutely* outside the savings clauses of EENS. He is neither a member of the Church visible nor invisible.
Perhaps he'll come back, again, but as anyone with the faintest knowledge of this knows, it is very, very unlikely.
Nice to see the level of Discerment in his Diocese is such that it would hire him in the first place.
The problem with formal and material heretic converts is they seem not to grasp a simple concept: submission of the intellect and will.
Thank you.
I was talking to Publius BTW.
I just read Bill's "Journey Home" post and I nearly died laughing. Seriously, though, what if "Brideshead Revisited" ended up with the protagonist becoming a Seventh Day Adventist?
Maybe Cordelia got all her tips about Catholic beliefs from Seventh Day Adventists.
What? Does Bill believe in sacred monkeys at the Vatican now?
"He is neither a member of the Church visible nor invisible."
I think what Stephen was referring to is the fact that, although Bill has separated himself from the Church, there is still a connection to the Mystical Body of Christ by virtue of his baptism. However, you are correct that his action makes his baptism practically of no avail, unless and until he repents.
+J.M.J+
I think Jeff Culbreath is onto something here. Bill talks a lot in that post about how happy he is to finally be reunited with the SDA members of his family. This must be a major factor in why he returned to the SDA rather than going to another communion.
We look at it and shake our heads, saying, "Seventh Day Adventism? Why not become Eastern Orthodox or at least return to Lutheranism?" Answer: His *family* isn't EO or Lutheran.
We look at the SDA and see the failed predictions of William Miller, the false prophecies of Ellen G. White, a handful of odd doctrines like the Investigative Judgment, etc. He looks at the SDA and sees his wife, his kids, his parents, perhaps his own youth. There's an appeal there for him that completely escapes us.
I'm still wondering how trading the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ for a bit of bread and grape juice four times a year would go, but oh well....
In Jesu et Maria,
"He looks at the SDA and sees his wife, his kids, his parents, perhaps his own youth."
Materially, that amounts to a violation of the first commandment. Christ is crystal clear that He must be put before everything and everyone. But Bill has convinced himself that his backsliding is a form of faithfulness -- otherwise he couldn't have made this decision.
After seeing Harold Bloom on the PBS documentary on the Mormons, I have to see some truth in his diagnosis on the ills of "The American Religion," (excerpt Wikipedia "..[he] surveyed the major varieties of Protestant and post-Protestant religious faiths in the United States and argued that, in terms of their psychological hold on their adherents, all shared more in common with gnosticism than with historical Christianity. He has elsewhere prophesied that the Mormon and Pentecostal strains of American Christianity will overtake mainstream protestant divisions in popularity in the next few decades.")
Perhaps folks at the Vatican need to pay more attention the "psychological hold" and consider the statistics of the contraception generation (a white gerontocracy out-of-touch with the "life-giving spirit" generation
http://www.archgh.org/youngacm/i...housurvey1.gif)
I pray for all families afflicted with OCD - that sort of thing must seriously mess with any kind of "submission of the will." Consider how Divine Providence used the deaf, dumb, lame and blind of Scripture to tell us something about what ailed the community of faith, what is He trying to tell us through the "pervasive developmental/autism spectrum disorders" that are so prevalent yet poorly understood today?
Nobody should say Catholics lack charity, I see so much of it here; but I wonder how much of it is false charity.
"But Bill has convinced himself that his backsliding is a form of faithfulness -- otherwise he couldn't have made this decision."
Jordan Potter, I think what you wrote is right on. And who knows, we may before long be hearing about Mr. Cork doing the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church lecture circuit, giving speeches, testimony and 'witness' against Catholicism and about his "loss of trust in the authority of Rome and the Catholic Magisterium", his SDA “conversion” and ‘welcome home’, and his finding again the Word of God as authoritatively given and understood by the enlightened Bill Cork and SDA. Sounds like the beginning of a promising career? If Mr. Cork has any integrity or honor left, this Protestant church-shopper will go quietly into the night. Was he ever Catholic? Really? This is more than doubt and loss of faith. May the Lord strengthen us all.
"Catholic convert, Bill Cork, has just announced his decision to jump ship, or, as he sees it, to flee the untrustworthy and unstable sectarian hierarchy of Rome and return to the faithful and reassuring Mother Church of Seventh Day Adventism".
The Catholic Church, founded by our Lord, has had problems throughout her history (at least from the Apostle Judas Iscariot onward) - so one might have expected that if Mr. Cork was perhaps a bit more mature and solid spiritually, and maybe slightly more intellectually well-informed and humble, he would have known that sin and lack of orthodoxy in some or many of her members was never a valid excuse to leave/divorce her (the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church) and join a sect.
With that in mind, I suggest Mr. Cork look hard and long in the mirror, as it is he that is "untrustworthy and unstable". What a scandal.
Cork wrote:
“On Sabbath, April 21 (my baby brother’s birthday), I returned to the Seventh-day Adventist faith in which I spent the first 21 years of my life through rebaptism. When I got home that day, I immediately submitted my resignation as Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston.”
What a scandal, a pity, and a shame. Pray for those Catholics who were under his 'care' and influence. And I notice he does not apologize to his Catholic ex-brothers and sisters. On the basis of what I read at his blog, “The Journey Home [Thursday, May 3rd, 2007...8:49 pm]”, I find little grounds to admire or trust Mr. Cork. How many here read it? It would seem wise that Catholics not wish him a ‘bon voyage’, or make excuses for his harmful misbehavior and sin.
I suggest those Catholics who know Mr. Cork do what they can to help save him from his mistake. That is true Christian charity.
==
+J.M.J+
FWIW, I'm not "making excuses" for him. I believe in EENS and that his schism endangers his soul; I pray that he returns someday, somehow.
I'm just trying to understand why he left. Every time a former staunch Catholic leaves the Church I get a little nervous, wondering if I could ever come to that point. Trying to discover the reasons may be one way of trying to reassure myself: "Oh, he did it because his family is SDA, buy my family is Catholic... etc."
Then again, maybe that's a bad idea. I should ask God for the grace to remain Catholic till the end. My grandma used to say, "I was born Catholic and I'll die Catholic!" - which she did. May God give me the grace to do the same!
In Jesu et Maria
Cork wrote:
“On Sabbath, April 21 (my baby brother’s birthday), I returned to the Seventh-day Adventist faith in which I spent the first 21 years of my life through rebaptism. When I got home that day, I immediately submitted my resignation as Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston.”
Perhaps I misunderstand this, but it appears Mr. Bill Cork FIRST went and got 'rebaptised' (!) in the Seventh-day Adventist faith (heretical sect), THEN went and submitted his "resignation as Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston".
The man was tempted, sinned, and fell from grace into error. Appears the man was totally irresponsible, imprudent and shameless, lacking in even the most basic charity and respect towards the Catholic Church and his superiors and colleges in the Faith, and towards those entrusted to his spiritual care, leadership and influence. I pray that the Holy Spirit protects especially these young adults, the young Catholic adults and their families, from the grave harm and scandal of Mr. Cork’s actions of disloyalty and faithlessness towards God and His Church.
The entire tone and content of “The Journey Home [Thursday, May 3rd, 2007...8:49 pm]” displays in my opinion a shameless and callous disregard for others, to say the least. According to him, he was "laying out theological and ecclesial issues over the past two months that were contributing factors to my loss of trust in the authority of Rome and the Catholic Magisterium", yet he did not show the least concern, nobility, or professionalism, and take proper steps to resign his position in the Catholic Church as "Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston", and so forth.
I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it appears true to me at least.
Lord, have mercy.
==
"I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it appears true to me at least."
Of course, I go *entirely* on the basis of what he wrote in “The Journey Home [Thursday, May 3rd, 2007...8:49 pm]”; what he wrote there all seems so self-serving, and not much else. If he was speaking with his superiors (Bishop, etc.), confessor, and so on, this for instance might go far in explaining why he resigned and quit the Church only after joining the Seventh-day Adventists first, etc.
So if I am wrong, and do not know all the facts, I am wrong. Sorry.
==
Paul,
Thanks for that post. "Rebaptism", huh! Well, I guess if your gonna join a religion started by someone named "Ellen" or Helen Gurley Brown for that matter, might as well cleanse yourself of all that "Catholic" stuff like the belief in the sacraments, the indwelling presence of God, etc., etc., etc...
Hope that last diocesan paycheck didn't get drenched on one of those rebaptisms!
By the way, Hans Urs von Balthasar writing a foreward to Tomberg's book is not grounds for leaving the Catholic Church, is it? No, Mr. Cork, of course not.
==
Ooops! Should be:
"...the Catholic Church and his superiors and *colleagues* in the Faith..."
==
Bill's brother, Jim, also a Catholic convert writes that he just heard the news on Thursday. So, "while laying out his reasons," Bill forgot to tell his own brother? I just don't believe it. It sounds more and more like Bill made the decision and came up with reasons after the fact.
http://www.jessnjim.net/
wordpres...age=en#comments
"Regarding his work in Catholic college ministry in the Houston area, I've seen some of the fruits and they seem very good indeed."
"Every time a former staunch Catholic leaves the Church I get a little nervous [...]"
My comment: I do not know what to say, because I honestly knew nothing about his ministry or that he was considered a 'staunch Catholic'(?) ....
I think my first encounter with 'convert' Mr. Bill Cork happened on this blog in March 2007, when he went after (mainly harshly attacking) the late author Fr. F. X. Schouppe SJ, and his old book on Purgatory and the saints, etc. Some of you will remember. What Cork wrote here (and then on his own blog) on the subject sounded a bit too Protestant and/or liberal/modern to me; it was my vague understanding (I recalled) that he was a convert from Lutheranism, so I thought that this was maybe behind his apparent irreverence, objections, and lack of appreciation. In any case, I was not impressed – but no one is perfect, not me for sure. God knows.
But from my own perspective and impression, he seemed discourteous and wrong then; his way recently of leaving the Catholic Church seems at least equally so - But I know it is far far worse.
==
Hot off the press from Bill's blog:
"Today I was introduced to the members of the Houston International Seventh-day Adventist Church as their new associate pastor. The elders were told in advance, but no one else (hence my silence), so there was much surprise, but also much rejoicing."
It seems as if the reasons were more than doctrinal!
http://billcork.wordpress.com/20...05/the-new-job/
By the way, was former 'convert' Mr. Bill Cork publicly important or popular in the Church, or elsewhere, for some reason? Did he write a book or something? Sorry for asking. Strange I only thought of it now.
I know we are all important in God’s eyes, but that is not what I meant.
My question is serious. Thanks!
==
Ha! I just 'published' then I read this:
"Today I was introduced to the members of the Houston International Seventh-day Adventist Church as their new associate pastor."
Oh, this is so sick. Now I have a solid reason for having no respect for Bill Cork. This guy is a real scammer. What a stinker!
Christ is not fooled.
Thanks Rick! 
==
God taught me something today. I hope others got the message.
==
"It seems as if the reasons were more than doctrinal!"
Rick, allow me to repeat what I wrote:
"And who knows, we may before long be hearing about Mr. Cork doing the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church lecture circuit, giving speeches, testimony and 'witness' against Catholicism and about his "loss of trust in the authority of Rome and the Catholic Magisterium", his SDA “conversion” and ‘welcome home’, and his finding again the Word of God as authoritatively given and understood by the enlightened Bill Cork and SDA. Sounds like the beginning of a promising career?"
Watch for it; it might happen.
==
The message in part, I think, was stand up for the Catholic Church, and keep the Holy Faith as best you can! And beware of the snake oil peddlers!
We need a Catholic version of QuackWatch, perhaps. There are many 'Bill Corks', some popular, and some not so well known. It matters little. They may look Catholic traditional, conservative, liberal, progressive, and so forth, but beware! They are false.
God bless you all.
==
but beware! They are false, all of them - no matter where they appear on the spectrum.
Just my opinion. Thanks again.
==
Ha! We see you now!
==
"The man was tempted, sinned, and fell from grace into error."
==
Sad. Pray for the victims.
==
End of story.
==
"Every time a former staunch Catholic leaves the Church I get a little nervous, wondering if I could ever come to that point."
Makes sense to me. Thanks!
"lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"
==
ScandalWatch?
==
"The elders were told in advance, but no one else (hence my silence), so there was much surprise, but also much rejoicing."
Like a snake eating a rat.
==
"...catching AND eating..."
==
Hot off the press from Bill's blog
==
Bye.
==
Quote of the day:
"One doesn't want to be uncharitable in these situations, but correcting error is a work of charity. Of course, there are people who will take this as a license to get in peoples' faces and be obnoxious. Nevertheless, the duty remains. It may not be fun or involve soft, warm hugs, but it's still charity." ~ scriblerus
==
Another quote:
"There is so much one wants to say but restrains himself. Impressionability and all that. But the cat is out of the bag." ~Pertinacious Papist
==
Could you explain that quote a bit, Pertinacious Papist? Thanks!
==
Bye again. For real this time.
==
Paul just posted twenty times in a row by my count. Is that some sort of record?
Bill Cork wrote:
"When I got home that day, I immediately submitted my resignation as Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston.
I didn’t know for sure how long it would be before I found another job, though I had been in conversations with folks for a few weeks.
A job was confirmed three days later."
My comment: Sure Bill, sure. We hear you.
Bill Cork wrote:
"Today I was introduced to the members of the Houston International Seventh-day Adventist Church as their new associate pastor. The elders were told in advance, but no one else (hence my silence), so there was much surprise, but also much rejoicing."
My question/comment: Did the Bishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston give Bill a good Reference? If so, maybe that must have done it.
==
"Paul just posted twenty times in a row by my count. Is that some sort of record?"
==
If Bill comes to anyone's door selling the Watchtower, realize it may not be purely doctrinal, it is just that the JW's may pay a little more than the SDA's!
"A job was confirmed three days later."
A sign? A sign! I smell "Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church lecture circuit, ['honest' and 'saved' Bill Cork] giving speeches, testimony and 'witness' against Catholicism and about his "loss of trust in the authority of Rome and the Catholic Magisterium", even maybe a SDA bestseller.
Only Bill knows.
==
And the sign was not from God.
==
But I think I understand.
==
Goodbye Mr. Cork.
==
An afterthought:
I suppose I do in fact have some respect for Mr. Cork, because unlike most the destructive and harmful 'Catholic liberals', he moved on.
So again, goodbye Mr. Cork, from one sad soul to another, goodbye.
==
Ellen (to Jim Cork):
http://www.jessnjim.net/wordpres...en#comment-
1232
==
There was indeed a famous ex-Catholic who, when asked why he didn't become Protestant, said "It's my faith I've lost, not my reason." But originally, it was biblical scholar Ernest Renan—not, as Publius said, James Joyce. Though I wouldn't be at all surprised if Joyce repeated the line.
As for Bill Cork, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's lost his reason, but his reasoning processes don't seem sound to me. True, it's very common to charge the Magisterium with discrediting itself when it changes teachings that never met the criteria for infallibility. But in the aggregate, I've always found such changes to be a plus, not a minus. Perhaps some people who don't are looking for a kind of certainty that not even the Church can provide. But then, I haven't the foggiest idea how following somebody like Ellen G. White can provide such certainty. Logically, this all seems like an enormous muddle to me. Which is why my hunch is that Cork's conversion was really more at the affective level, the theological being ex post facto. I noted the same thing in Rod Dreher's case when he converted to Orthodoxy.
Having worked as a parish adult-ed director in the Houston diocese, I am not surprised to hear this news. Nobody in an official position with the chancery seemed at all interested in knowing my actual views. There was much more interest in my status with marriage and women; on that score, Bill didn't seem to have a problem.
Mr. Borealis,
You asked me if I could explain further my remark, "There is so much one wants to say but restrains himself. Impressionability and all that. But the cat is out of the bag."
The self-restraint is something analogous, I suppose, to the restraint one feels about speaking critically of the recently deceased.
I think there are always mixed reasons for why a person converts or reverts -- including both intellectual and emotional and intangible personal reasons. But whatever the reasons, I don't think the decision can ever be divorced from intellectual reasons. No matter how much money a person is offered, he can't with any sincerity be brought to believe that he has five arms and twenty legs.
Having said that, I do believe that many converts to the Catholic Faith since Vatican II are brought into the Church on under something close to false pretenses. Mr. Potter's quotation of the reaction to Dr. Francis Beckwith's Catholic conversion from Amy Welborn's blog speak to the issue:
"I have this theory that a large plurality of evangelicals who become Roman Catholics think they’re becoming Lutherans. I mean, a lot of them think they’re getting a historic liturgy, ancient practice, and an evangelical understanding of grace with a sacramental package providing assurance. But what they’re really getting is crappy Marty Haugen rites, medieval novelty, and dogmatic doubt. I mean, you almost never see evangelicals swimming the Tiber because they’re really excited about being able to get indulgences, sacrificing Masses to get their grandmas out of purgatory, or doubting whether they’re in the state of grace."
While I know this isn't true of all converts, I know it is true of many. I know it was true, for example, of one ELCA bishop who, after years of edging closer and closer to conversion, suddently gave up all plan of converting and resigned himself to living out his years in an attitude of retrenched Lutheranism. Why? He had thought, he told me, that post-Vatican II Catholicism had "come around" to the Gospel of grace proclaimed by Martin Luther in the Reformation, but was appalled during the 2000 Jubilee Year to find Pope John Paul issuing indulgences and continuing to talk about Mary as a heavenly intercessor and mediatrix of divine graces, and to find the Catholid Church still talking about Purgatory, etc. All of this, he said, made it seem as if the Reformation was for naught. Q.E.D.
I think many, many converts, unlike this bishop, actually make it across the Tiber under such false presumptions about what the Church actually believes and teaches. I know the Catechism is there to be read. But there are many things that are not explicitly articulated in the Catechism that are in Catholic tradition. Part of the problem is that the Church since Vatican II, like RCIA classes in parishes since Vatican II, have been soft-pedaling the teachings and traditions of the Church it things Protestants and people in contemporary society generally will find offensive. Then, when these individuals, who have not been told the facts about what belongs to Church tradition and teaching, later discover them, they're in for a shock. That's part of the problem.
The other thing that is quite clearly involved in the case of Mr. Cork is personal and familial issues. I can't speak to these, since I don't know what they are. Yet I do know that these can decisively influence decisions, often in ways that strike onlookers as irrational and even irresponsible. Mr. Cork, I believe, has other family members who have converted to the Catholic Faith, as well as parents who have remained SDA; so the situation must be emotionally wrenching, to say the least. Please continue to pray for them.
Pray also, as Mr. Borealis suggests, for those Catholics who were under Mr. Cork's influence before he reverted.
+J.M.J+
Well, he seemed staunch in the past (I've been reading his blog since late 2002). True, he didn't care for Fr. Schouppe's book, but last I checked that wasn't a requirement for being a Catholic. Nonetheless, he seemed to really believe in the truth of the Catholic Faith. I can't help but wonder exactly where things began to go wrong, but I'm sure that's none of my business.
Anyway, he strongly implied that working in the Church helped destroy his faith - then he goes and becomes an associate pastor in another ecclesial communion? Might that not pose a similar danger? One of my brothers left the Church more than two decades ago; for the past few years he's been the associate pastor of an Evangelical congregation, which he practically built "from the ground up" with the pastor. Now he's feeling a bit disillusioned with that fellowship; he just found another job and may not be associate pastor there much longer (of course, I'm praying that he return to the Church, though I see no evidence he's about to do that).
I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Mr. Cork; I really don't know. It just seems like it's too soon for him to jump into such a position while still "on the rebound" from Catholicism. I could be wrong, of course; I know very little about his situation in comparison to what I don't know.
In Jesu et Maria,
As I think about this more, I lean more toward the suspicion that when Bill converted to Catholicism, he may have carried with him rather too much of his former theological ways of seeing things. I confess that I'd never had much interaction with Bill Cork. A while back, when I first found out about him and visited his weblog, my initial impression was that he was a Lutheran. Then I saw that he had converted to Catholicism from Lutheranism. More recently, I noticed that he had an interest in Seventh-Day Adventism for some reason, but didn't know he'd started out his spiritual journey as an Adventist heretic. Only now, at the bitter end (well, I hope it's not the bitter end, but he's decisively broken his communion with the Body of Christ), do I find out that he used to be an Adventist and is now going back to the Judaising heresies of his youth.
Anyway, I have this sense that Bill's conversion may have been conditional in some respects -- he may have thought the Catholic Church had decisively rejected some doctrines that she can never reject, and his recent discoveries may have really disillusioned him. It just underscores the importance that Catholic converts make a conversion not just of intellectual beliefs and outward practices, but even deeper, a conversion of mindset and worldview. Perhaps Bill never quite knew what it means to think like a Catholic, to think with the Church.
I always wondered why he didn't take advantage of the pastoral provision and become a married priest like so many other Episcopal and Lutheran converts. Obviously, its a good thing that he did not ask (or did he? I don't recall him ever discussing it if he did).
As usual Dr. Blosser, you describe things as they pretty much are. A significant number of converts come to the Church thinking one thing about the Church not realizing truly what the Church teaches. Many times it is a "falling in love with a caricature of the Church" and not the Church as she really is, for what she truly believes. When I was coming back home to the Church after the Petrine question, one issue and one issue alone brought me back; the Sacrifice of the Mass. When I became convinced that the Mass was and is the one and the same sacrifice as Calvary, the only difference being the manner of offering, I had only one place to go (possibly Orthodox as well) and that was back home to Rome. No Protestant communion, to my knowledge, believes that the Eucharist is a real and true sacrifice, the one and same sacrifice as Calvary, and that it is a propitiatory sacrifice. I told my friend, a Pastor in the PCA, at the time that I had become convinced of this teaching about the Mass and he agreed, there was no other place to go but home to Rome. So often, in hearing convert stories, the convert will talk about how they came to the Church because Protestantism has various problems, among those private interpretation, every man his own pope etc... Yet, my experience has been like the one Father Bouyer pointed out in his book The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism that on the ground Evangelicalism is not really like that. Again, my experience, which I concede one must be very cautious with experience, has been that the importance of and the building of relationships within the context of the community has been much greater in my Evangelical life than as a Catholic. How often do I yearn to meet some fellow Catholics on the parish level to talk about the faith and without fail, it does not happen. That's why, in some way, I enjoy this blog and others because it lets me know there are others out there who care about the faith and want to talk about it and encourage one another in it. I agree with Dr. Blosser how many converts truly know why they are coming to the Church founded upon the Petrine Ministry and indeed to the Church where Calvary is made present by the hands and words of the priest and that through this priest Christ comes. I would not trade coming home to the Church for anything, and by God's grace I will be an instrument in His hands in the service of the Church. For it is in this Church alone that the Sacrifice of the Mass is offered for the living and the dead.
Jay,
Bill had indeed petitioned Rome to be ordained as some Episcopalian and Lutheran ministers have been in the past.
Unfortunately, in Bill's case this just wasn't going to happen. You can't have a Catholic priest with a wife and kids who worship at the SDA place, no matter how talented you are (and Bill is very, very talented).
I can't say for sure, but I suspect this might well be at the bottom of his reversion. We met quite casually, but Bill brought up his ordination hopes very, very quickly, more quickly than I would do with a complete stranger. I wonder if after years of waiting on Rome, Bill didn't get a little resentful of these delays and begin to get fed up with Church authority.
Logically, this all seems like an enormous muddle to me.
To me, too. It's completely baffling---even more so than the Rod Dreher case, although that is becoming increasingly baffling in the light of recent revelations of horrific sex abuse and financial crime within Eastern Orthodoxy, much of it transpriring right under Rod's nose in Dallas!
Re the Bill Cork case: As you say, Mike, the reasons for the decision had to be more "affective" than logical.
I have the book Journeys Home, in which Mr. Cork recounts his conversion story. (I have never been one of his blog readers; I know him, so to speak, only through this book.) In his story, he tells how some bad experiences at a parish-teaching job (sson after his conversion) nearly drove him back to Lutheranism. He even made official arrangements with the local Lutheran bishop, undertook a battery of psychological tests, and went though all the requirements for reinstatement as a Lutheran pastor. Then, during a long drive, he reflected on how crazy this was---to persevere in the Faith through unemployment and other adversity and then decamp after a bad experience "on the ground."
Grace intervened then. May it intervene now, too. I can't help but think that it will, once Bill has his fill of Adeventist ministry and realizes that it is just as messy and sin-ridden as Catholic ministry could ever be.
Another baffling thing, though: In his conversion story, he tells how he became disillusioned with the SDA movement very early on, long before he even dreamed of converting to Catholicism. He was aware of the research showing how Ellen G. White had plagiarized her "prophecies." He was painfully conscious of the historical and theological weaknesses in Adventism. It is so strange that someone so aware, so sophisticated, would now re-embrace something he knows to be, well, rather flaky. It would be like an ex-Mormon returning to the Latter Day Saints despite knowing full well that Joseph Smith was a sham.
Very, very baffling. All I can say is: Lord have mercy! (On us all.)
Diane
I think Scriberius' comment is illuminating. It would be refreshing if Bill actually came forward and stated these elements of his situation.
I can sort of piece it together now. Working in a chancery is very, very difficult. It is not just the sins of the Church, but the mediocrity of so many who work for the Church and more importantly, the lack of faith. It was probably galling to Bill that in the midst of this, he would be "relegated" to a lay ministry position for the rest of his life when the real power, if you will, and status, is in the clergy. I am not saying he was right to think this, but I could see a very gifted person, if he were not fully immersed in the call to humility that is so deeply a part of Catholic tradition, would become quite frustrated.
Perhaps there are a lot of theological issues. But it would be refreshing to hear someone say, "I jumped ship because I was surrounded by people less talented than I and I was never going to get the recognition and status I think I deserve."
If Bill was seeking ordination to the priesthood, based on his lack of discernment and rather rash decision making, present case as an example, I would say in this case the wisdom of the Church prevailed.
"He was painfully conscious of the historical and theological weaknesses in Adventism. It is so strange that someone so aware, so sophisticated, would now re-embrace something he knows to be, well, rather flaky."
If he knows the erroneous and fraudulent foundations of Adventism but has gone back anyway, then he's either suffered a mental breakdown of some sort, or he's a man devoid of (or having lost) his moral and intellectual integrity. How sad that the more charitable option is that he could be suffering from a mental disorder.
Anyway, yes, it's clear that Bill is not fit for ordination, and probably never will be now even if he returns to the Church.
Okay, enough depressing stuff. My eldest child just received his First Holy Communion today, and I'm very happy and don't want to dampen that. I did pray for Bill at Mass today, of course.
Thanks for that information, scriblerus. Who knows if he would have reverted anyway, but his inability to become a priest most likely stoked the fire. Bill has always been an enigma to me. As a Lutheran, I was initially attracted to his blog because his early posts and writings seemed to be quite appreciative of Lutheranism, and it seemed as if he became RC as a natural progression of his temporary stay in Lutheranism. As time went on, though, is seemed as if most of his posts on Lutheranism became increasingly negative, much like his recent change in attitude toward Catholicism.
Grace
The 'gifted' person has made a mess. Part of the problem I see is that too much focus is being placed on these 'convert' individuals, like they are heroes, supermen, super saints, stars, celebrities, or minor idols. A great Olympic runner is one that finishes the race, correct? Please stop making excuses for the man, and blaming others for his problems, mistakes and failed character as a Catholic. We can all fall into temptation, Mr. Cork was no better.
Maybe because I am not a 'professional Christian', nor a convert, I lack the insight others have – fair enough - but it seems slightly obvious to me that the man lacks in the area basic integrity, professionalism, and has a commitment problem, to begin. Whatever he was, or people thought he was, he is not a good Catholic. I even wonder about his professional relationship to Christianity – because I think I smell a scammer. I might be wrong. Only God and Bill know.
He is making his living from religion; fine, but if he can't handle it, find another job away from religion. So many of us wage slaves do not work for the Church as ‘employees’ or whatever, and expect nothing. It seems but a job to him. He wrote: "I didn’t know for sure how long it would be before I found another job [...]
A job was confirmed three days later."
Job job job.
I can accept that some converts convert for the wrong reasons, make mistakes, and so forth, as Pertinacious Papist wrote. But what I suspect I see unfolding with Bill Cork is a character problem, and sin problem, jumping from bed to bed so to speak, place to place. A real Catholic is married for life, and loyal and faithful. No divorce. It may not be all his fault, but I will not overlook what I have seen here over the last while.
Theological problems with Catholicism? Ha! As Bill Cork IS a Protestant, that is not a surprise me. Get in line.
Rosemarie
"Well, he seemed staunch in the past (I've been reading his blog since late 2002). True, he didn't care for Fr. Schouppe's book, but last I checked that wasn't a requirement for being a Catholic."
Fine, I can't speak about 2002-2006, but what I saw in March of 2007 was a bit more than him not ‘caring’ for it (the book). Liking the book is not a requirement, no, but his anti-Catholicism was peeking through in my opinion. Hey, I have bad days too, I make mistakes or have views in conflict or inconsistent with the Church, etc. and I can admit it. But nothing I have ever read from him seemed all that theologically great - nothing he said about Purgatory was important, genius, significant or profound. What is he famous for again?
No, as a Catholic, he is apparently a failure, at this point at least. Allow us that, at least for the time being. He demonstrated it in multiple ways as of late. Very sad. One cannot deny it. Schouppe was a Catholic. Cork was whatever – questionable?
==
"My eldest child just received his First Holy Communion today, and I'm very happy and don't want to dampen that."
Great stuff, thanks! Now there is a hero; and I trust the parents are too. May God bless and strengthen your child, and may the angels in heaven rejoice and protect.
==
"Perhaps there are a lot of theological issues. But it would be refreshing to hear someone say, "I jumped ship because I was surrounded by people less talented than I and I was never going to get the recognition and status I think I deserve.""
Who was this guy?
==
"I think Scriberius' comment is illuminating. It would be refreshing if Bill actually came forward and stated these elements of his situation."
He has said and done enough in my opinion. An apology from him would be in order; but that would take some concern and humility on his part.
He will not take responsibility. What we will get from him is attacks on Catholicism and Catholics. Let him prove me wrong.
==
"Perhaps some people [...] are looking for a kind of certainty that not even the Church can provide."
Something to think about, especially in our intellectual climate, day and age - modern and postmodern. Thanks!
==
http://billcork.wordpress.com/20...-of-reflection/
The Apostasy (if that is even the correct word for Bill Cork's arrogant brand of pseudo-intellectual opportunism) is now complete. This shameless Protestant should look to correcting his own failures; Catholics will deal with their own, as they have for 2000 years, with the help of God the Holy Trinity, His grace, and Mercy. Bill Cork has become a scandal. One could perhaps excuse and understand the so-called "rice Christians" of old, but not religious snake oil peddlers and professional converts like Mr. Cork.
I am ashamed of those Catholics who do not understand that people like Mr. Cork ARE part of the problem and crisis. Wake up!
==
I'm one of the ones who was under Bill's care down here in Houston. He taught me a continuing education course in the Formation Toward Christian Ministry program. I enjoyed briefly meeting Bill, and I perused his blog periodically. Call me dense, but I did not see this abrupt change coming. Apparently, I'm in good company, as his own brother found out after the fact. Anyway, Bill seemed to be a fervent advocate of the Church whenever I saw him. It's amazing to think that all of this could have been bubbling up in a dark place. Bill and his family will be in my prayers.
skeeton, yours is a fascinating perspective.
Paul Borealis, you make some good points, but I would urge you to refrain from passing judgment.
I think it's perfectly legitimate to ask "why?" We have been blindsided by this news, after all, and many of us are rather stunned, not to mention confused. But if we pass judgment, then we add fuel to Mark Shea's fire. He's busy, at his blog, telling people exactly how they are allowed to react and accusing them of being judgmental vultures if they presume to react even slightly differently from the way he's prescribed (even if they haven't uttered a word of judgment or speculated about the state of Mr. Cork's soul or whatever).
I think it is pointless to condemn, I think it is pointless to repeatedly ask why. To do the former is to make Bill Cork the devil. To do the latter is to make him Anna Nicole Smith. The latter is a shrewd comparison, perhaps, but repugnant, and ultimately without benefit to anyone.
Shake the dust from your sandals and move on.
"But if we pass judgment, then we add fuel to Mark Shea's fire."
Whose fire?
"Shake the dust from your sandals and move on."
Yes, your advice is the best. I've had more than my say -- I guess because, coming from an an "Adventist-y" background I found this case a bit more personally compelling. But yes, it's time to move on.
Nothing personal intended toward any commenter. It's just that these days we seem to spend so much time granting notoriety to clueless noodniks.
+J.M.J+
>>>Schouppe was a Catholic. Cork was whatever – questionable?
Since he truly did convert to Catholicism, we can't say he wasn't a Catholic. At best we could say that he either didn't fully develop, or perhaps somehow lost, a sensus Catholicus.
Admittedly, his blog had taken a strange turn against the Church recently. Ironically, though, he was using more Traditionalist arguments than anti-Catholic Protestant ones. He took certain claims by Thomas Drolesky and Fr. Brian Harrison that the Church has changed her official teaching on the death penalty and religious liberty - and possibly is about to do the same with limbo (though that hasn't quite panned out as some feared) - and used them to deny the infallibility of the Magisterium.
He then seemed to argue as follows: These traditionalist Catholics admit that the Church's Magisterium is unreliable, so the only thing I can do is return to Protestantism and fall back on my own private interpretation of the Bible. Logically puzzling, yes, but apparently it was a good enough justification in his mind to go rejoin his family in SDA.
I was baffled by his sudden "faith" in the claims of Catholic traditionalists, to whom he had never seemed to listen before. Now it makes more sense - perhaps he was looking for a reason to leave. I tried to answer some of his arguments but he never posted those replies. Little did I know that his mind was already made up, that he had probably already left.
That said, maybe it is time to just move on. Mary, Refuge of sinners, pray for us. Mary, Destroyer of heresies, pray for him.
In Jesu et Maria,
Take a look at his last two posts, centered on bad RC bishops. I dread to see where this is going.
+J.M.J+
Why should we look at them? Is it any big surprise that he should post such stuff? He's still on the rebound, still bitter at the Faith he once believed in but has now left behind, and perhaps still trying to justify leaving it to himself.
These are some of the classic symptoms of what an EO priest acquaintance of my husband called "convertitis." Seen it before, don't need to see it again. I decided two days ago that I would no longer visit his blog. If he's transmuting into a bitter ex-Catholic whose more anti-Catholic than pro-SDA, I don't see why I have to watch it happen....
In Jesu et Maria,
Mark Shea is outright lying about me, claiming that I am "diagnosing" Bill Cork's soul. I have never said Word One about Bill Cork's soul. I have expressed bewilderment over his actions, and I have defended the right of pthers to express similar bewilderment--a very understandable response under the circumstances. But I have never said one syllable about Cork's soul or about his sincerity or about enything else concerning his inmost being. Not. one. word.
I am completely disgusted by Mark's misrepresentations. And I just wanted to set the record straight, fwiw, should anyone venture over to the Shea blog and encounter Mark's slanders. (I am done with posting there myself. It is a toxic environment, wherein Mark silences those who disagrees with him--by deleting their posts--and then proceeds to have the last word by misrepresenting and slandering them.)
Thanks.
Diane
Diane,
What happened? I thought you and Mark were buddy buddy?
Is he just going off the rails?
RE: Bill Cork
If I recall correctly, Bill Cork was one of the major anti-"Passion of the Christ" bloggers in the blogosphere. Especially concerning the Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews. Its interesting that he lists the Catholic seperation from Judaism as one of his reasons for leaving.
If he does want a "theological" reason for leaving THAT would be it (I believe it wouldn't ultimately pan out however).
Ken: Search me. The whole thing escalated before I even knew what hit me.
It's not the first time I've had a run-in with Mark. But it seems to be the nastiest case so far.
Lord have mercy.
Matt
We do not need ex-Catholic Bill Cork to point out/tell us about the sins and problems in the contemporary Catholic Church. There are many media and other sources to consult, all of which are far superior. And in light of what he has done, you are rightly suspicious of his motive. Your concern is understandable. He has contributed little or nothing of value, and this will become more obvious over time. His only importance to his fans was that he was a public ‘convert’ to the Catholic Church – beyond that nothing. I hope everyone can see the vanity of this sort of thing. It is an exaggerated, unhealthy, false and quite unnecessary way of relating to converts. A great Olympic runner is one that at least finishes the race – starting, whining and then quitting before one reaches the finish line is not all that great. In relation to Catholicism, that was all ‘celebrity’ Bill Cork accomplished, as far as I can tell. Joined for a few years, then made a career change. The man was tempted, sinned, and fell from grace into error.
We see the sort of person Seventh Day Adventist Bill Cork is, and what sort of Catholic he was - he did not measure up as a Catholic Christian, and spoiled things, that is for sure. It is probably time to ignore him, and move on, as people have suggested. Let us not further inflate his high opinion of himself. He is not the devil, but he is a Protestant. In light of his recent actions and words, it is beyond me how he can presume to lecture Catholics on how to be better and successful Catholics, while neglecting his own problem, failure and fall from Catholicism. He puts down Hans Urs von Balthasar for being a bad Catholic Christian, but then Bill Cork goes off - betrays the Church - and joins a sect. Bill criticized von Balthasar of writing things against the Faith, but then Bill writes things against the Faith. What a scandal. Fool us once, shame on you; fool us twice, shame on us.
==
"Admittedly, his blog had taken a strange turn against the Church recently. Ironically, though, he was using more Traditionalist arguments than anti-Catholic Protestant ones. He took certain claims [...]
He then seemed to argue as follows: These traditionalist Catholics admit that the Church's Magisterium is unreliable, so the only thing I can do is return to Protestantism and fall back on my own private interpretation of the Bible."
Very interesting. Thanks!
==
"He puts down Hans Urs von Balthasar..."
Any Catholic can disagree with von Balthasar on a number of issues; I think he knew he was controversial.
==
"It is a toxic environment, wherein Mark silences those who disagrees with him"
People have said Mr. Cork did or does the same at his blog.
==
"claiming that I am "diagnosing" Bill Cork's soul"
Well, Bill Cork is doing pretty much the same thing to the Church and her members. Shea might want to consider that. Thanks.
==
"...you make some good points, but I would urge you to refrain from passing judgment."
I do not think I went too far, but if I did, sorry.
==
From Cork: "Sunday, May 6th, 2007...6:23 am
Mail, blogs, etc."
"[...] I hear there is much discussion on some other blogs. I’m not reading the latter."
That does not surprise me one bit, Mr. Cork. Not one tiny bit.
==
"Fr. Brian Harrison that the Church has changed her official teaching on the death penalty and religious liberty"
Fr. Harrison does not make any such claims, and you can't put him in the same class as Drolesky, though I'm sure one can misuse what Fr. Harrison has written to justify claiming the Church has changed her official teaching on those matters.
"Mark Shea is outright lying about me"
Mark who?
LOL, Jordan, you keep saying "Mark who?" Is there some backstory here that I don't know about? (Hint, hint: diane_kamer@yahoo.com)
Y'know, I just realized that I have never, ever interacted with Bill Cork in any way, shape, or form--not by blog comment, board post, e-mail, snail-mail, telephone, wireless, Western Union, or carrier pigeon. This renders all the more piquant the charge that I am "diagnosing his soul." Why on earth would I do that? WRT a guy I don't know from Adam?
Short answer: I wouldn't...and I haven't.
Yet the slander continues.
Oh well. Say la vee.
Diane
Diane
Re: "diagnosing his soul."
Maybe Mark Shea did to you what he claims you did to Mr. Cork?
*LOL*
==
Of course, Mark Shea was wrong and he failed. But you knew this already Diane.
==
LOL, Paul. Thanks.
+J.M.J+
>>>Fr. Harrison does not make any such claims,
I know; Cork cited *Drolesky* on the death penalty and religious liberty. He cited Fr. Harrison on the limbo question. Sorry I was unclear about that.
>>>and you can't put him in the same class as Drolesky, though I'm sure one can misuse what Fr. Harrison has written to justify claiming the Church has changed her official teaching on those matters.
Which is what Cork did.
In Jesu et Maria,
"Since he truly did convert to Catholicism, we can't say he wasn't a Catholic. At best we could say that he either didn't fully develop, or perhaps somehow lost, a sensus Catholicus."
I suppose you are right, and I am wrong. I can accept that I was being too harsh and critical, and too suspicious. If I must, I will apologize.
If Mr. Cork would have left his position with the Catholic Church BEFORE he (re) entered the Seventh Day Adventists, I would not have been so terribly upset and critical. People lose faith, it happens. People get hurt and leave the Church. It happens. The sins and scandals in the Church can break you down; abuses and problems can break your spirit, etc. I can accept this, such has happened to me personally in during my life. I can relate, and can have compassion, no matter what you might think. It has happened to people that I know too.
As I said above (and I want to make clear), if the Catholic Bishop, etc. told him to do this, i.e. enter the Seventh Day Adventists before resigning, that would probably seriously change things, cast a different light, provide a significant mitigating factor. Please be assured that I would never have been critical in the manner I have been, if I was made aware of such, or something similar - a reasonable excuse or explanation for the timing and sequence of events.
But in the information I have been given, there has been no reason or explanation why he did not resign and leave the Catholic Church first, before (re) entering the Seventh Day Adventists.
If somebody said to me, ‘I thought I was a Catholic, but realized I am not, sorry, but I need to leave’. I would try to help them, persuade them not to, etc, but I would respect their freedom. If I thought they were making a grave mistake, I would offer it up, and so forth. God will judge. He is Love. Even when things make no sense to me, He is Love and Wisdom.
People, keep the Faith, as best you can.
==
We too can fall into sin and error. Remember this. Be serious. "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"
==
Guess what? The Reformation is over and last time I looked a truce was declared. The sarcasm and anger towards Bill that is evident here wont bring him back to the Church.
"The self-restraint is something analogous, I suppose, to the restraint one feels about speaking critically of the recently deceased.
I think there are always mixed reasons for why a person converts or reverts -- including both intellectual and emotional and intangible personal reasons. But whatever the reasons, I don't think the decision can ever be divorced from intellectual reasons. No matter how much money a person is offered, he can't with any sincerity be brought to believe that he has five arms and twenty legs."
Pertinacious Papist, I will meditate on this, maybe it will help, and I will calm down. thanks!
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"Guess what? The Reformation is over and last time I looked a truce was declared."
Was there a truce?
"The sarcasm and anger towards Bill that is evident here wont bring him back to the Church."
I never thought it would. Not for a second. He made a choice. If he was ever a Catholic, he knows what I mean. We all make choices.
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I addressed some of Mr. Cork's own comments here.
God save us from the effects and consequences of our bad choices.
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And may we find forgiveness in Jesus Christ our Lord.
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A wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
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"And that’s what so much of Catholic life and teaching is built on: “Trust us.”"
No, trust God - enter the Church founded by Jesus Christ - enter His Mystical Body filled with the Holy Spirit. But do not forget the human element in the world. Catholics do not expect a perfect group of people on earth called Church - after 2000 years, we are not so naïve. Grow up.
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We recognize the role of the Church in God's plan of salvation in Christ.
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Thanks for the clarification, Rosemarie.
Liam, yes, the Reformation is over, thanks to the Council of Trent. As for a truce being declared, well, there will be conflict between the Catholic Church and those outside her fold until Doomsday.
Zippy: Great post. I also recommend Mike Liccione's excellent "Development vs. Negation" series at www.mliccione.blogspot.com and catholica.pontifications.net. (For some of the material, you'll have to search the archives.)
On the Cork affair, and SDA: work and comments from people who have more patience, knowledge and skill than I. Worth checking out.
http://sda2rc.blogspot.com/2007/...on-may-
6th.html
http://sda2rc.blogspot.com/2007/...a-
anathema.html
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It seems there is many problems between people in catholic blogosphere (problems of jugdment, of "ego", on sensibility [tradi vs others, and the contrary 
] ...)
I fear that does not serv God's will and goals very much.
Let's pray for real love between each others and morever, the humility to not be aggressiv toward those who don't exactly see things has we do (are we obsiously right? ). Charity is needed in blogosphere.....
This is fascinating to read. Because you could turn the denominational identities around, and it would sound (with some doctrinal adjustments, of course) almost like what the Adventists would have written (had the internet been in existence) when Bill left the Seventh-day Adventist church!
It's very hard to see things through the eyes of others unlike ourselves, isn't it?
I think the person early in the thread who identified Bill's problem as a sort of never-ending quest for a religion that would sooth the soul, was on to something. There is value in stability, even if you're stable in an imperfect "marriage". Just as with the search for the perfect wife, the hunt never ends.
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