Lots of men in green silk -
in my view not exactly the future of the church for the average modern catholic family. IMHO even the traditionally minded should seriously consider including women on all levels - otherwise this will continue to be a sideshow.
But hey if events like this are all it takes to keep folks amazed, tickled and in the fold I am all for it - I doubt however that will be the case. The way a charismatic energetic Priest like Fr. Z. is rapidly filling a void left by the official church in cyberspace, I doubt he and like minded folks will be contend with our somewhat imperfect larger church.
Taceant mulieres in ecclesia.
Grega:
There surely are two amazing aspects of this. First, the celebration of a form of the Mass which - to all intents and purposes - had been banished to the (literally) underground church is celebrated publicly by one of the most noticeable of Vatican cardinals. Second, CNS somehow gives the impression that it's no big deal. On the second score, I suppose I should be thrilled. If it's no big deal, every diocese should celebrate Mass this way, and regularly! (Remember, it's no big deal, a non-event).
God bless the Cardinal. Thank God for our Pope.
Your Buddy Christ: "My friends, after consulting Mr. Obama's public relations department upon the recommendation of Mr. Grega, I've decided to forgo this crucifixion gig and adapt my Gospel to the more authentic desires and expressed needs of the world. He who does not deny his cross, take up his flask of Cana wine and dance with me is not worthy of me. In fact, I've decided to adjust my public image and become a sort of public entertainer."
Sheldon, this is ridiculous.
Btw, Burke is not a cardinal, and I hope he never becomes one. Let him go the way of Ranjith.
Yes, Archbishop Burke is not a Cardinal -- yet. All in good time. All in good time.
"Sheldon, this is ridiculous."
Care to be specific and show your colors?
Sheldon,
here is a classic one for your collection.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p...from=PL&
index=1
Clever, Grega. I enjoy Carlin too, perverse though he is.
Here's one for you and your liturgical ideal: Liturgical aggiornamento, Grega-style.
You obviously don't know my liturgical ideal - sure your example was 'peinlich' as they say in Germany.
I actually like Gregorian Chants and real old churches. I take candle light, mediation and silent prayer any day over the 'amazing' examples in the post.
But hey - I can understand that others feel strongly for this or that liturgy.
Yes, I happen not to care much for the silky pomp that currently seems to be all the fad with the conservative catholics around here.
Combine silky pomp with the fancy red shoes and the black shades of the dogmatic current office holder and yes this freaks me a bit out - something is not quite right with the picture.
When I grew up we had a great bishop - a very humble man - 8th child in a family of 11 - drove a rather shabby old car - a kind and gentle man - a deeply respected man of the people.
I will never forget the example of this fine man -
it is a shame on the other hand that many of the the priests and bishops that run our church these days are gravitating more towards the fine silk and pomp of the monarchs and less towards the linen of the average person.
You lead by example - fancy red shoes ain't it.
Grega,
Glad to hear you like candle light and old churches. Good. We agree on something.
I also agree that simplicity and poverty (as well as poverty of spirit, rightly understood) are admirable in a prelate.
Not to speak for Sheldon, but I think you're mistaken on two counts. First, what you call "silky pomp" is not a fad among conservative catholics, or even a recent fad at all. Beautiful and even expensive vestments and chalices, etc., are a traditional way in which Catholics have endeavored to give honor to God in their liturgy. Would you want God to be worshiped by priests wearing shabby vestments? Isn't it a bit perverse for families that shop at high end clothing stores to drive expensive BMWs and other high-end cars to Mass and then demand that priests wear cheap polyester sheets and celebrate Mass with cheapo 'cups' (sometimes made of wood, pottery, or glass)?
Second, the Church has never thought twice about accepting priests from religious orders who take real vows of poverty -- like, say, Padre Pio and live their daily lives on the low end of the economic totem pole to go to the sacristy before Mass and vest in ornate, embroidered vestments and celebrate Mass with an expensive and ornate golden chalice. Why should we find a problem in that. The priest isn't personally "showing off" -- most certainly not in the TLM. He's stepping into the role of an intercessor going to the altar of God on our behalf. The Old Testament priests did the same thing in ancient Hebrew society. They wore ornate vestments rich in symbolism, just like the Catholic priests used to and still do in the TLM.
If there are materialistic bishops who wallow in luxury, I too think that would be a problem; but I don't see how that problem in any way reflects on the question at issue here. Do we agree?
Does the wearing of silk make the rubrics pompous? Or do ministers in silk perform them in some silky way?
Criticize the red shoes and shades, if you like, but leave room for richness in the liturgy, please.
PP ,
you raise valid points - what can I say human beings. Sure you can find plenty Catholics from either end of the spectrum driving smart well engineered cars to church. I have to tell you among the liberals you certainly can find the whole range of what somebody coined 'Ecochic' - folks look a bit 'rough' and simple but really it is a wellgroomed roughness - it is the Yoga type 'simplicity'. Perhaps linen instead of silk - but taylored just so - again nothing new under the sun.
But one can also find the real deal - folks that honestly live simple just peaceful lives.
As for the church - a reflection of society really - you can again find the range - liberal clergy with gay sensitivities etc. oh well - freedom what can I tell you.
Now there's an honest man. Thanks, Grega.
No problem Dr. Blosser - sound like you have been through the wringer this year - good that things seem to fall into the proper places again for you.
Regarding the church - I imagine it is only natural that sheer size and cultural and economic diversity will always be a challenge to implement the kind of coherency dreamed up by some.
No silver bullet in sight really -
but it is sure fun to pretend otherwise. If I read you and smart folks like RRD around here correctly you in essence lost your trust in church leadership. The type of church you truly desire you will never get globally - that church existed around 1950 - there are reasons why it was modified significant ever since -as much as you try to make this a rational argument - at the heart this is about peoples place in time and history. You guys hope for a second act - you are getting your second act here or there.
Call me cynical - but the kind of trust and devotion required to truly buy into church aka 1950 - is simply gone with the wind.
Even you folks honestly are incabable of true obedience.
If things go your way you are all cheering - if not you are all verbal and justifying why you are right and the other side is just no good.
The 'other side' including Cardinals and Popes.
Roister has no love lost for large majority of the bishops - what is there sin? they happen not to come down on his side - go figure.
By the way, fact is our church positioned itself beautifully to attract disproportionate numbers of conservative, very pious closeted men as the result of insisting on 'celibacy' and one gender. LOL this will ensure a certain gay quality to aspects of our worship. Beautiful shiny vestments will not be a hindrance in that context.
I am kidding of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H...h?
v=HNojQd_ri_o
This was taped at St. Agnes in Cologne/Germany.
Grega,
First, thanks for the link of the "Laudate Dominum" led by the Taize community, which is nice -- especially coming from you!
Second, as to your prior comment about the sheer size and cultural drift of the Church, here you repeat a claim that has become something of a theme for you. That is, you seem to think it silly of anyone to resist the cultural drift. Do you really think so? Isn't it true that a fish, say, which drifts with the current rather than struggling against it, is usually a dead fish?
On a more global-historical level, hasn't it ALWAYS been the task of the Church to represent a counter-cultural influence, subverting the cultural influences of paganism and bringing the light of Christ to bear in the pagan darkness -- much as St. Patrick brought the light of the Gospel to the superstitious Druid-dominated darkness of Ireland?
Is there a reason why you think this pattern should be changed for some reason, so that the Church should simply cave in to the prevailing cultural drift and allow the meaning of the Gospel to be re-defined by all the Hans Kungs, Joseph O'Learys, and Gregas of the world? (I suppose this company does you proud?!) =)
The task of the Church, Grega,is not to conform Christ to the culture but the culture to Christ.
In my view the old chicken or egg problem. Sure church influences culture - but most certainly very much the other way around too - no surprise here - last I checked every parishioner, every priest, every bishop and the pope has been and will be yet another flawed human being. Sure church should provide guidance and backbone but nevertheless one has to pick the proper fight. Equality of women for example is here to stay with actual consequences for this and the previous generation and all those that will follow.
To insist on running an extensive global endeavor's with half the possible most talented personal would not be considered particular smart in the business world.
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