We have two birthdays today, so my dear wife turned 2.
I have good news to report: more activity out here on the left coast. More priests are learning the Gregorian Rite.
Still more good news, perhaps the fruit of the Motu Proprio, is that our local bishop will lead the prayers at our local version of 40-days for life.
Sorry to be the poop in the punchbowl yet again, but for me the telling statistic is as follows:
How many parishes in a given diocese offer the Gregorian Mass on a
(a) daily basis
(b) weekly basis
(c) monthly basis
(d) irregular basis
Answers may be expressed in percentages.
An incisive follow-up question would be: of these parishes, how many are offering these masses in direct response to the motu proprio, and how many are merely continuing a practice established by prior indult?
Or, put another way: how many of these masses represent a genuine break-out of the established traditionalist ghetto?
Ralph:
In the case of Detroit, only Assumption-Windsor and St. Josaphat had Masses pre-MP. That's a five-fold increase in TLMs. Can't comment on New York or Chicago.
As for frequency of a particular Mass, that is dependent on such a wide variety of factors that one cannot generalize. A twice-per-year Mass can morph into a weekly one if sufficient interest is shown. This sort of assessment is taking place right now in Wyandotte, for example. The pastor is not the obstacle.
"As for frequency of a particular Mass, that is dependent on such a wide variety of factors that one cannot generalize"
I am not asking for generalizations. Quite the opposite. I am asking for statistics -- provide those and the generalizations will become obvious.
" . . . if sufficient interest is shown"
Truth = popularity is as bizarre a standard of judgment for liturgy as it would be for dogma.
Ralph:
1. Assumption-Windsor: Sunday weekly
2. St. Josaphat: Sunday and Monday weekly
3. Assumption Grotto: daily
4. St. Joseph: monthly
5. St. Stephen: Sunday and Thursday weekly from Sept. - May
6. St. Albertus: special occations
7. Sweetest Heart of Mary: special occasions
8. Sacred Heart Yale: Tuesday weekly
9. Ss. Cyril & Methodius: Saturday weekly
10. Our Lady of Mt. Carmel: monthly
Ralph, if you have organized a TLM yourself, you surely appreciate the myriad of factors, political and practical, that go into one. For instance, one may have the choice of prime time, e.g. Sunday 10:00 AM, in a dumpy chapel, or an inconvenient time, e.g. Sunday afternoon or evening, in a glorious historic church.
"Ghetto" is a relative thing. I would consider the prime time dump the ghetto moreso than the afternoon nice church, having been involved with both.
Things are not always black and white. St. Albertus, for instance, had almost 300 people for its first EF Mass, ten times more people than have attended a Mass there in years. The leaders of the church were impressed and have scheduled more, but they don't want to deviate from their primary mission of serving the (smaller) Polish community.
And our blog host's home, St. Josaphat, would have more weekday Masses if sufficient demand existed. As a downtown church representing a long drive for virtually everyone, it cannot expect people to be willing to devote the time and gas money to come more often.
We who love the EF want the supernatural benefits of the Mass, but we are subject to worldly realities.
Alex,
What do you think is the degree to which priestly independence of Cd. Maida has contributed to the rapid growth of the E.F. in Detroit?
That is, I read that in many places, priests are not willing to violate the illicit restrictions placed by their bishops in the wake of S.P. - I believe this has to do with feared of soft punishment (i.e., poor subsequent assignments, etc.) rather than hard punishment (i.e., immediate removal, excommunication, etc.) which would presumably be overturned by Rome in relatively short order.
Is there a sense in which certain parishes - say Assumption Grotto - had already distinctively set themselves apart before S.P. and that this has made them more bishop-proof (presbyteral council proof) in implementing S.P.?
Or, in the alternative, did finally pushing through an indult in 2004 break episcopal resistance in Detroit such that priests feel genuinely free to offer the E.F. if there is demand?
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North Carolina is my home,
Here where the Smokies rise,
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Blossoms adorn the dogwood tree
Down on the old home place.
Tar on my heels feels good to me
Here in my state of grace.
Carolina raised me
Straight as a mountain pine.
Rocked me in her cradle,
Southern mother of mine.
North Carolina is my home,
Home far beyond all praise,
Goodliest home under heaven's dome,
Here I shall spend my days.
Words by Charles Kuralt
Music by Loonis McGlohon
I feel compelled to ask once again: why should "demand" be the criterion for truth? Why should liturgy be put to a vote?
Paul:
There was a significant pent-up demand for the EF in Detroit prior to the MP, on the part of certain parishes, priests, faithful, and some who had been attending one of the several SSPX or independent chapels in the region.
The stories of how and why the indult had been blocked for 20 years had become well-known, and the diocese's repeated assertion that there was no demand for the TLM became ever more obviously inaccurate. The unfamiliarity of the Presbyteral Council with the TLM and the terms of the indult, as evidenced in the minutes that had been leaked out, revealed that they should not have been objecting to something they did not understand. An electronics technician should not be critiquing a heart surgeon's cutting techniques, as it were.
After the indult was approved, and once it became evident that the TLMs would not take over the diocese, the fear factor in the chancery dissipated. And those dealing with the TLM at the chancery came to realize that, contrary to legend, the percentage of strange folks attending the TLM was no higher than one would find at any parish. The Cardinal seems to want to avoid conflicts, thus he saw no need to create conflict against the small groups interested in the TLM.
Also remember that Detroit had and still has more OF Latin Masses than any other diocese in North America. The Latin Mass movement that began at Old St. Mary's, then grew at St. Joseph, and multiplied over to Grotto, had already created a fertile environment from which interest in the TLM could arise.
Holy Family Church, which has long had a hybrid OF-EF Latin Mass - clearly a liturgical abuse, BTW - had been left alone by the diocese. This precedent could have always been used against any anti-TLM action the diocese could have taken.
Make no mistake, Detroit is a diocese with a record of soft punishment for priests who buck the chancery. Fortunately, the TLM is - rightly so - off their radar screen of annoying topics.
St. Josephs, Bronxville - had one TLM about 4-5 mos ago - priests from Sleepy Hollow trained our young priest who is very enthused by the EF - they also brought their choir. It was beautiful. We were told that it wouldn't be on an ongoing basis so it was a surprise when it was announced we'd have a second one on the 14th by our young priest - one of the priests from Sleepy Hollow was with him. He told us after Mass he'd be having one monthly - 3pm. I think it'll eventually be weekly - I'm praying.
The Immaculate Conception, Sleepy Hollow - weekly - 3pm
St Eugenes, Yonkers - weekly at 10:30am but it's a NO Latin Mass.
Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Bronx - weekly - 11am.
" I feel compelled to ask once again: why should "demand" be the criterion for truth? Why should liturgy be put to a vote?"
Still no answer.
Ok, then, its a popularity contest. Guess what folks: you've lost. It's the Novus Ordo in a landslide.
Hail democracy!
Ralph:
You were addressing someone else, but I'll take a whack at it.
Liturgy isn't about a popularity contest. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that a tidal wave is still capable of causing great damage. It passes.
If I had to guess, the appeal to "demand" is part of the plan to expose such nonsense as you have previously noted: the people apparently wanted the Pauline Missal.
The strategy of most American bishops has been
(1) to ignore the motu proprio to death, limiting references to it to a bare minimum
(2) to refer to the gregorian rite not in its context as the timeless liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church, which embodied its traditions and nurtured all of its saints over centuries, but as a stodgy, cold and above all LATIN rite -- in which a certain measure of intellectual awareness, as opposed to emotional mushiness, is required
(3) to privately discourage through career disincentives all participation by individual priests in promoting the gregorian rite in individual parishes outside of the indult ghetto (if there is one in the diocese)
(4) to then proclaim -- afer forty years of unjust and illicit suppression -- that there just isn't a lot of support for the rite, ensuring the motu proprio's ineffectuality and in fact daring the bishop of Rome to cross the white line of collegiality
(5) What one notices about this whole effort is that there is no respect for truth or tradition in any of it. Pro-gregorian bishops are a timid lot, sweating with anxiety lest they be branded as less-than-enamored with pauline minimalism -- careers have been destroyed over less. So they couch their support of the gregorian rite in terms of "popularity" and "demand" -- a thoroughly inadequate fig leaf, given that post-V2 bishops and popes have done everything in their power to suppress it (or have at least passively accepted that suppression). Many Catholics have lived their entire lives withing that period of suppression, and thus cannot be expected to have any knowledge of or interest in the gregorian rite. Church leaders are essentially following the old attrition policy, which was publicly and shamelessly given voice in the early seventies -- keep the gregorian rite in cold storage, and eventually its adherents will die off, and their sons and daughters will be ignorant of it -- and the bastion-razing may proceed apace.
(6) The whole dialogue strikes me more and more as a contrived political drama, in which the outcome has already been determined -- perhaps the SSPX is right when they express concern that the motu proprio is no more than a political ruse to set the stage for another corporate merger, this one between the Vatican and the SSPX.
Goodness, Ralph!
My parish celebrates both High and Low Mass every Sunday, and the place is brimming with parents and their numerous children. We (having a mere 5 children) are leaders of one of the smaller families in the parish.
I'm a convert, lest you forget. I had no exposure to the Gregorian Rite growing up, unless you count participating in Tosca at ArtPark. After I came home to the Church, I went in search of good music and good theology despite the persistent efforts of a great many people to prevent me from opening the cellar door. My story, insignificant though it is, in itself, is far from an isolated example. Many people are thirsting for the living God, and continue to search for Him even when they are told that such ideas are outdated or against the spirit of Vatican II.
As the resident Eyeore of my family, I say nevertheless, when there is something really worth celebrating, surely we should celebrate it, even if only in thanksgiving prayers to Our Lord?
Chris,
Your story may be inspiring to me, but it is not to the great majority of American bishops, who regard your ilk as nuisances -- stones in the passway, so to speak.
You have found an oasis in the great American Catholic desert -- good. But venture beyond the shade of the sheltering palms, and you may find yourself more in tune with my dyspeptic message.
American bishops, for the most part, are not interested in irrigating this desert. Their going concern is bagging the sand and selling it as topsoil.
I will end with a restatement of my first comment:
The telling statistic is:
How many parishes in a given diocese offer the Gregorian Mass on a
(a) daily basis
(b) weekly basis
(c) monthly basis
(d) irregular basis
Even in our largest cities, it is fair to say that access to the gregorian rite requires extraordinary efforts on the part of the laity, most of whom are not inclined to extraordinary efforts on behalf of the Faith, and are encouraged in their disinclination by their leaders.
AlexB listed ten parishes in the Detroit diocese. That is wonderful, but how many parishes are there in that diocese? Do the math.
In my smaller but still sizable diocese, there were two indult gregorian masses available before the motu proprio. One year after the motu proprio there are still two gregorian masses available in the diocese. Net effect of the m. p.: zilch.
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