Papa Ray:
Your comment is off-topic. Please read the whole post before jumping on your horse. Sorry for deleting your comment. I did not argue about the issue you stated and it is exactly the what I am trying to avoid in this post.
As I said, read the whole thing:
"Regardless of the military results of the war and the disagreement between the two sides on who was in a better military and strategic shape when the war ended, I consider the political developments that followed and ending the state of war between the two countries to be much more important series of events than the war itself."
And by the way, Papa Ray:
Your prejudice blinds you. You saw one sentence and launched yourself like a rocket. You automatically assumed I am saying things which I wasn't saying just because the blog is called "Egyptian Person".
Know this: You may not be that different from those you dislike if you act just like them.
I think it's a very touchy subject and it will take alot of time, effort and convincing. Egyptians hate Israel too deeply to normalize relations easily. But it's not impossible, harder things have happened
Great post...and it will happen.
Well, sorry to have offended you. But you are also jumping to conclusions.
What I stated was fact, not a fiction of what I or you would like things or attitudes to be now or in the future.
The "ending" never was, it was just stopping the killing by the U.S. threating to get into the killing themselves. Both sides and the Soviet Union had to be stopped. Kissinger told Israel they had to hit hard and hit fast because the U.S. was going to end the war one way or another.
There was no victory for anyone involved. But Egypt would have lost thousands of troops if the U.S. had not intervened.
I have no "side" in this argument, just a wish for the real history to be known, not a history made up to make people feel better or feel pride.
Pride will be the undoing of the Arabs and the Persians and the Americans and the Russians if they don't get their collective heads out of you know where.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
P.S. Anyone can delete comments, adults discuss and debate them.
Papa Ray:
Thanks.
The pride that you mentioned is true and it's a problem, and it's why I didn't want other people with pride issues to move the debate to that direction when they respond to you. This post is about suggestions for the future, not about debating the past.
I am aware of the opinions that you mentioned in your 1st and 2nd comments about the end results, and I am open to them, among other ones.
Israel has made peace with Germany. So I guess anything is possible God willing.
A real peace is certainly possible.
Egypt could gain a lot of agricultural know-how and Israel could gain new markets in a country with almost 90 million (I might be wrong about the population, but not by much).
Both countries have a lot to gain from each other. Nobody ever losses from having a real peace.
A real peace would also help Egypt move towards a more open and democratic society and it would also help Israel diminish the legitimacy that the Arab world gives to Hamas and other such extrimist terror organizations.
Yes, and the Egyptian playright agrees with you. How idiotic the demonization in the Egyptian press is... worse than almost any other Arab state.
You might explain the main problem to the feckless Javier Solana, UN, EU and leftists the world over... who think it's only because of Israel not wanting to give up land or due to what some lines on a map a few degrees one way or the other are going to be. But UN and EU reps do need to feel like they're worth something and get 'recognition'.
Re 73 -
I was under the impression that the opposite occured with Israel, the US and Kissinger... Israel threatened the US to help with equipement or they would end the war themselves, via Nukes. However, Nixon likely was sending equipment anyway. The war turned anyway before that for Israel.
Sandmonkey noted he grew up believing that 73 was a great victory for Egypt, not that it matters - in article in Egyyptian magazine that interviewed him recently - where they of course tried to knock him..
He links to it.
Anyway, if the pride from a 'great victory' is what enabled Sadat to sell peace (no war) and 'recognition' of Israel to the Egyptians than so be it, who cares.
I'll stop in again.
Take care.
Mike
What was, was.
What will be is now up to us.
I'm proud to have put up a link to your wonderful Egyptian Person blog on my Dry Bones blog (in Israel) and I'm even more proud to see that you've put up a link to Dry Bones.
Kissinger, the Americans, the Russians, Nixon... all that history and foreign manipulation, all the arguments about who "won" are meaningless!
We, Israelis and Egyptians, are too smart to let these hatreds continue to poison our countries and people.
Your blog gives me hope for the future. Thank you.
Yaakov "Dry Bones" Kirschen
Egyptian Person, I would say you are mature.
HI what a great blog but about the Egypt~Israel relations i really think that's a great benefit to Egypt to work on our relations with israel and we can exchange many information and benefits especially in agriculture which should be Egypt's main Target in our economy and depend on our own production as we did for 7000 years before the so called revolution but you know the problem isn't an arabian thing as you think i think it's a religious issue as the majority in egypt are muslims and they are told that jews are there enemies and there is no way they can make any relation with them as most of the people here in Egypt are illetrate and they take all their knomlege from there priests and from the governoment newspapers and you also know that our "great" president use this card to play with it on both sides with us the people and the forien authoreties so i dont yhink that in the coming few years these people are ready to deal with israel or that will be repercussion for the semi relation that is been built now.
i just wanted to comment about the statment: "failure of the region
’s countries to reach peace with Israel is the result of the policies and arrogance"...
let me remind u that egypt would not have come to this peace before getting back sinai and syria can not accomplish peace without getting golan heights back and getting rid of hundreds of thousands of palestinian refugees.... it s not arrogance, we just need our lands back....
After the 1973 war, there is a great difference between what Egypt and Syria have done - and that is why there is a difference on the ground today.
Egypt worked for peace, but Syria worked on supporting terrorism and occupying Lebanon to use its land to attack Israel.
I don't think the regime in Syria will change its politices unless they are removed by force or if they get their ass kicked - and they deserve it. I hope I will have some time to talk about Syria in more detail soon.
the syrian regime had definitly very bad influance in the region but peace between egypt and israel would be impossible if the israelis did not want to get out of sinai... and now peace is impossible since israel does not want to get out of golan peacefuly ( it took the lebanese years to drive israel out of lebanon and it was done with guns...) but in syria not one shot was fired taward israel and this is the reason the syrian regime is a peace of shit.....
My,how ignorant and unfounded your dumb, simplistic article is. I've never read such rubbish in my life, how can peace be achieved between the arabs and Israel when Israel doesn't want it? Not only that but it won't stop the killing of palestinians. I'm very proud that egypt has always supported Palestine and hope it continues to do so even if other, idiotic, Arab, in namer only, countries don't. Let palestinians decide whether or not they want your stupid version of peace, maybe they'd rather have their land back! Maybe you should be less biased and better informed before you make up your mind, even Israelis wouldn't blame palestinians or Arabs for the lack of peace between us. Educated, informed, liberal and fair people, both Arab and Israeli, tend to blame Israel.In the west again Israel is usually blamed, their govetment that is and radicals. What rock have you been living under?
N:
My,how ignorant and unfounded your dumb, simplistic article is. I've never read such rubbish in my life
N, Regardless of your lack of decent vocabulary, I disagree.
Israel is the only side ready for true peace at this point in time. The Palestinians can decide and do whatever they want (blow up buses and restaurante, for example), but you and they can't complain about the consequences of your choices.
I think that what you meant by "Educated, informed, liberal and fair people" is people who agree with your opinion or favour the Palestinian side over the Israeli side, and not actually educated, informed, liberal, and fair people.
Wake up!
From what you writes and from the comments above, I now know who you are. You are part of the Israeli propaganda.
Egyptian Person, while i welcome any point of view that disagrees with mine, this just takes the biscuit.
"Israel is the only side ready for true peace at this point in time. The Palestinians can decide and do whatever they want (blow up buses and restaurante, for example), but you and they can't complain about the consequences of your choices."
Well there lies your ignorance again, you still fail to make the distinction between palestinians and terrorists who blow up buses etc. The palestinians i'm talking about are the ones getting killed left right and centre, the ones who well informed people admit are getting killed, the fact that you're not prepared to acknowledge facts says more about your ignorance than anything else. Get your facts right please, oh and liberals would usually aacknowledge such facts, regardless of where they're from, as they usually criticize their own regimes quite happily. While i'm also critical of many of our regimes and policies i cannot ignore simple facts.
It's far too simplistic to say that what's hapenning in Israel is because palestinians are blowing up restaurants, which i condemn by the way. Gaza is theirs yet they're getting killed by settlers there. The treatment they receive in Israel is disgraceful. Any one who has a clue would admit that. Israelis themselves acknoledge that. This is what i meant by better informed people and not those who are willing to blindly criticise someone from a one sided point of view and ignore all the facts.
Grow up!
Nahla
N:
Again, regardless of your use of words such as “your ignorance”, I think those who blow themselves up and those who support them are on one side, yes. I know there are some Palestinians who are against terrorism and I wish there were more of them, but they are not enough to create a driving force to put a stop to terrorism, especially when we talk about masses of people in Gaza for example, not a responsible leader or politician who is capable of making the right decision.
And since those terrorists intentionally hide in the middle of the civilian population, it is simply impossible to guarantee there will be no civilian casualties when terrorists are targeted by Israeli forces. At the same time, it is impossible to think that Israel will sit back and do nothing about it. Israel knows it, the Palestinians know it, and every side should be intelligent enough to make choices that protect their OWN citizens using the best possible way while minimizing civilian damage on the other side. But of course one of the 2 sides does exactly the opposite: They try to target as much civilians as possible on the other side, while not caring about the suffering of their own people and destruction to their own land. I believe that side is the Palestinians.
There is a difference between intentionally targeting civilians, and targeting terrorists. Those terrorists hide where they hide so that when civilians are injured or killed by accident, they would say: "See, Israel is evil and kills Palestinians..." and of course the Middle Eastern masses that are addicted to hate and the desire to eliminate Israel will be the first to believe that and act upon it.
Yes, sure, there are Palestinians who have been killed by settlers, but there are also settlers who were killed by Palestinians. In both cases the killers should be called what they are... criminals/terrorists or whatever fits the crime. The question is, in which side does the majority consider their criminals to be heroes and martyrs?
And yeah I know Israel is not exactly the best place for a Palestinian to be... road blocks, security measures, inconveniences... etc., especially if they were Palestinian workers crossing the border to work in Israel. But hey... if it was my country I would expect my government to take the necessary measures to protect its citizens from outsiders, especially under these circumstances.
As for liberals, they come from different countries, backgrounds, beliefs, and points of view. To say that liberals or most of them support a certain point of view over the other is simply redefining the word liberal to fit a certain opinion or position. Any two liberals can have opposite views on the same subject, and that is what being liberal is all about.
Hussain:
Not really...
Honey, again i'm not saying that Israel's actions in any way justify the suicide bombings or attacks on Israeli civilians. You're reading in my words whatever the hell you want because your main argument is Israel has the right to do whaterver it wants to protect its citizens from those bombers etc.Criticizing the Israeli regime is not the same as criticizing the israeli people or demonizing the state of Israel. Peace is something that can only be achieved when equality is given to the palestinians. I agree that suicide bombings are wrong and so do you, however, where we differ is that i acknowledge facts. The many atrocities comitted by Israel on a daily basis.
"Two liberals can have opposite opinions....." Of course. It's not so much your liberal views but your hypocritical ones. Reducing a complex debate about Peace with Israel to the whole well till there's no more suicide bombings bla bla. Those are individual acts. Do you also believe that Egypt should be punished for the egyptian extremists' actions? That does not make sense. It's very prejudist to only acknowledge one side of any argument, opinions we can differ on, facts are another matter.
Nahla
lol
you guys are funny! Egyptian Person it is clear that you are a bias and most of your arguements are not supported. However, i do believe that Egypt should not be responsible for other countries conflict such as Israel and Palastine. Going to war for another countries benifit is not in the interest of Egypt economicaly nor politicaly. Palastine has sold its land for the Jews for some cash in hand regardless if they were ineed of money. How can we trust Palastine when they ignited the civil war in Lebanon killing Christians after they welcomed them and gave them shelter.Remember what the Palastinian did in Tunisia and Jordan? Why should we help such back-stabbers who will only cause trouble in the region? What about the boming in Sinia which involved Palastinian "terrorist" group? Egypt is trying its best to calm the conflict and also supporting Palastine but all i saw on TV is Palastinians burning the Egyptian flag which i found offensive!Still it does not justify nor side to kill each other.Palastine should settle with the Jews and take advantage of their economy, technology etc. Suicide attacks on Israel only cause more harm for the Palastinians and for Islams reputation. People are too stubborn to face facts that no way Israel will just pack their bags and leave the land!"immposible". Israel will never leave the region and for that, peace should be adapted in the region and both sides could benefit from each other. By the way im a Muslim-Egyptian and sorry for any spelling mistake or vocab if it matters!lol..reality!!!!
what is your name and nationality ??
i agree with all the liberal views here,im an egyptian pharmacist working the gulf,i would suggest an opinion for discussion if possible,the question which is in the mind of many honest Egyptians ,the question about who are we,and to whom we belong,are we real arabs,or we belong to a greater civilization? i think the answer of the question is the key for a door which opens for Egypt to another glory,or,forever disgrace
the thing which most Egyptians dont know is that arabs are peace of shit! they don like egypt and they are full of hatred against us,so,how come we go fighting for the palestinians or for anyone else,why didnt they fight with us in sinai,why we feel much sympathy towards the arabs ,while the arabs feel much fun and joy when an adversity afflicts Egypt,when the hell will we wake up,the problem is in the muslim brotherhood,the muslim brotherhood cant be left so,their ideology must be faught,and their hypocrisy must be disclosed
the thing which i w'd refute here is the normal relationship with israel either,the enemity between egypt and the israelis is deep-rooted in history ,i'd be so rusty to believe what you say here about the
"normal relationship",but i believe in the "cold peace" either
i luv egypt:
You say I am biased and most of my arguments are not supported, but you did not explain that.
I agree with most of what you said. I wasn't offended when the Palestinians burnt the "Egyptian flag" because that flag does not represent Egypt or myself.
I also hope the Palestinians, and all people, for that matter, continue to show us their true selves.
You, "Egyptian Person" should be jailed in a high security prison and perhaps beheaded?
You are breaking Egyptian law, which is democratic!
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