Egyptian Person,
You may be right, of course. However, I believe the policy of the USA will be to stick with the people this time. You can see this happening in Afghanistan. The people partially supported the Taliban when they came to power, but then only a short number of years later, they were only too happy to get rid of the Taliban. This time, they are choosing much more carefully. The people of Afghanistan are deeply religious, and their government shall relfect that, but it is quite different from the Taliban! The same thing may happen in Iraq. The first time, the Iraqis voted for more religious people. I believe they will vote for more centrist candidates in the December election.
I wish Egypt could avoid a sudden turn toward religious intensity, but I doubt it can be avoided. The average common man must experience the evil of this type of religious dictatorship, must form in his mind that it is wrong, and then must change to be "more normal." Everyone must come to understand that true morality and true goodness comes through personal righteousness that is vountarily selected--not forced by a gang of thugs.
The situation in Egypt now is extremely frustrating. Unfortunately, it seems to me that there is very little that any open minded person can do. Fanatic hallucination has swept the country, and people who oppose it are worried but prefer the choice of safe silence.
We need a miracle!
"Not only that, but Al-Badrashin went as far as stating that since it is possible those men have acquired the Israeli citizenship,"
This is utterly impossible and it is a bizarre statement in the extreme. This politician should know that one of the ostensible reasons why the Arab states oppose Israel is because it is a "Jewish state" that is, only Jews can automatically become citizens, which is a policy that discriminates in favor of one ethnic group, and against another.
He is either abysmally ignorant or a demagogue.
Democracy is not easy, and as you note one of its first problems is promoting tolerance of disagreement. When the US wrote its current Constitution, one of the provisions was that the national government would not have a chosen religious creed: not often acknowledged is that was a compromise, as some of the individual States did have a one-and-only allowable religious sect - no two of which were the same sect...
Diana, while "He is either abysmally ignorant or a demagogue" seems more than fair (I think he is both), I am unsure of your stated reason. Yes, if an immigrant to Israel can show Jewish descent then citizenship is automatic and this is discriminatory, but it is not true that only Jews can become citizens - other than the provision for Jews, the citizenship procedures for non-Jews are not that much different from other countries. The men could have become Israeli citizens, though I doubt they did. Contrast this with, say, Jordan where those who fled the new country of Israel in 1948 - and their descendants - cannot legally become Jordanian citizens.
Diana, while "He is either abysmally ignorant or a demagogue" seems more than fair (I think he is both), I am unsure of your stated reason.>>
I am not sure what you are unsure of.
"Yes, if an immigrant to Israel can show Jewish descent then citizenship is automatic and this is discriminatory, but it is not true that only Jews can become citizens ->>
John, I said "only Jews can AUTOMATICALLY become citizens"
emphasis added, please read more carefully!
"other than the provision for Jews, the citizenship procedures for non-Jews are not that much different from other countries."
That's not true, but it's irrelevant to the issue. It is very difficult for a non-Jew with no relationship to a Jew to become a citizen of Israel. It would be virtually impossible for a Muslim or Christian Arab to become a citizen of Israel. If I am wrong, please supply proof consisting of citations.
"The men could have become Israeli citizens, though I doubt they did."
Impossible, see above. Arabs are considered a "demographic threat" (some Knesset members say "cancer") in Israel.
"Contrast this with, say, Jordan where those who fled the new country of Israel in 1948 - and their descendants - cannot legally become Jordanian citizens."
I profess no expertise on what happened to the Palestinian refugees who fled to Jordan in 1948, but this is factually incorrect as regards those Palestinians who fled to the West Bank in 1948. They did become Jordanian citizens. Of those who fled into Jordan proper I really don't know--but since half of all Jordanians are Palestinian, doesn't this indicate they received citizenship?
I think you should check your sources.
My point in bringing this up wasn't to bash or diss Israel, but to point out that the situation is being perpetuated by demagogues, in bad faith, on BOTH sides, and that both sides are backward, racist, patriarchal and theocratic. Just because Israel is technologically superior to the Arab countries doesn't make it any less so.
The government is a gouge. 
Diana, you are fair and reasonable (very rare), but I think it is worth mentioning that jews have a limited number of countries where we can call home without fear of anti-semitism... and we just lost France. In comparison, arabs and muslims have MANY nations they can call home.
The idea of Israel is that Jews will have a tiny peace of worthless swampland (about 0.5% of the ottoman empire... arabs have 99%... Kurds got ripped) to protect ourselves. This idea was dismissed by most as paranoia... then Hitler happened. well, you know the rest!
Jews are despirate to keep Israel a secular democratic state that will never reject a jew in need.
Unfortinately, this does mean trying to keep a jewish majority as Islamic states are not democracies and violate what most liberal Jews consider acceptable human rights. (we like the Gay Pride Parade!!)
But war and the breeding habits of the locals are creating a lot of stress on both sides. That is why Israel is trying hard to get Jews to live in Israel... and hopefully have a few kids!
Without proper context israel can seem racists. But considering the history of the jews, it does make a lot of sense. Kinda wish it wasn't surrounded by 300 million Arabs wanting the final 1% of the ottaman empire, but what can you do
Its a terrible situation all around, lets hope leaders on both sides aim for a pragmatic solution that everyone can live with.
Nice posts all around though!
Egypt is a country in crisis and fanatics do not make the situation any better. However, the truth will triumph in the end!
EP,
The article is very vague and I think there is more into this story. Can you provide us with links to the story?
I have met some of those Copts in Canada and the US and man they are hateful to everything muslim that walks and talks long before 9/11.
Some of them are as fanatics as any other religion. They do work against the muslims in Egypt and are racisit.
I'm Christian and Copt so you can imagine the frustration of an Arab-American Coptic Christian.
Links (Arabic):
http://www.masrawy.com/news/2005...ember/27/
6.aspx
http://www.masrawy.com/News/2005...16/
morsahs.aspx
Although I'm unaware of Masrawy as a new source I take it that you know better than me in the Egyptian media. I'm still pondering on the thought if this guy is trying to push his agenda by showing some Patriotic act by disregarding those 2000 men.
What were those 2000 men doing in Israel? sounds fishy to me and strange. They all married women from West Jerusalem 1948 arabs?
My reading skills in arabic are not perfect so I will assume I'm missing something.
Twosret:
I will assume I'm missing something.
No, it is all in the post.
What were those 2000 men doing in Israel?
They went there to work and while working and living there they got married to "1948 Arabs". When they returned to Egypt they came back with their families. No mention of West Jerusalem.
I can't understand the guy because if they are Egyptians married to Arabs how does that disqualify them? He thinks just because they worked in Israel they are traitors?
Twosret:
Yes, and also because they are married to Israeli citizens. Even if you go as a tourist being called a traitor is not unusual. Actually such a proposal would easily get the public support in Egypt.
EP,
Last I heard Pope Shenouda won't let Copts visit their holy sites in Jerusalem to show unity and respect for the Egyptian Muslims (I'm assuming that there is a problem of Egyptian Muslims to visit). I know that there is no real peace when it comes to the Sadat Peace between Egypt and Israel.
Arab Israel are ARABS and they should never be treated differently. In my opinion they suffer pretty much (I'm talking from a personal interaction on this one).
Now this guys sounds to me like this lawyer who wants to take away Amr Diab citizenship (I bet you he is jealous that Amr is so cute) . He is really bizarre and it is discrimination, I have to agree on this one.
Is it common though for 2000 men from one spot in Egypt to go and work in Israel?. My instinct will say it is not common but I want your input on that, if you have an answer or the article in arabic have any info.
Thanks,
T.
Twosret:
I'm assuming that there is a problem of Egyptian Muslims to visit
While (most) Egyptians do not believe in the current Egyptian-Israeli relations and consider visiting Israel to be a bad thing or even treason for a variety of reasons, I am not aware of any problem that would prevent Egyptians from visitng Israel. After the peace treaty between the two countries, Egyptians have the right to visit Israel just as Israelies have the right to visit Egypt.
Is it common though for 2000 men from one spot in Egypt to go and work in Israel?. My instinct will say it is not common but I want your input on that, if you have an answer or the article in arabic have any info.
I don't know why the 2000 families are living in the same place, or whether the men lived in that place prior to their travel to Israel, and the article does not explain it.
http://cairocracks.blogspot.com/
Btw....Great blog
Nice article EP. I agree with you that the herd mentality is one of the biggest obstacles to development in Egypt. It's too bad that our society puts such a huge emphasis on confirmity.
Hi, you have a nice blog, I also suggest that all Arabs and Egyptians should read this book "Arab Voices Speak to American Hearts" by Samar Dahmash Jarrah an Arab American. This open dialouge is between Americans and Arabs. You can check it out at AUC library or on Amazon
Nice article.
these people have violated no egyption law, so they should not be punished.
egyptian person where are you??? its been a long while, are u OKAY???
egYptianist!
egYptianist:
Yes, I am alive and well. I wanted to take a break for a couple of weeks but too much was/is going on for me to blog regularly. I am always following your and other blogs, though.
The persons that made the two requests in your article have the right to say and request what they want even if they are wrong because in a democracy it is possible to voice your opinion no matter what and whom. However the problem will occur if their requests were fulfilled by the government because that would be discrimination. As an Egyptian i look at this and laugh because any thing could happen. But i would not come to your same conclusion just due to these articles.
I beleive that you were unfair some way when your are saying dictatorship or fascism could be by many of the people. because in the example that you lead you are supposing that we are in democratic country& cultured population where the representitve of a population realy represent their community which is not in more than 90 % of our parlaman
Kamaad:
Are you saying that the majority of Egyptians will disagree with Mohammed Al-Badrashin, and Galal Abdul-Rahman? If your answer is yes then you are wrong.
On these two particular issues the people are very well represented in Egypt.
Are you even Egyptian?
Incidentally, Hitler came to power in Germany as a result of a democratic process.
More recent example: Hamas.
great posting
and interesting comments,
peace, salaam, shalom
Dry Bones
Israel's Political Comic Strip Since 1973
Fantastic questions you raised, Person.
I'm studying at the moment and similar questions keep popping up for me: what happens when democracy would lead to violations of human rights as these rights are understood in the west?
The thing is, in all the literature I've been reading, I haven't even come across this question, let alone an answer to it - although that doesn't mean much. I have been working on only a related topic lately. But when I get some time, I'll have a look at what the academics are saying.
Me personally? I believe that there is nothing that can compete with the western conception of human rights in the protection of the individual, and that everything that can be done to replace old systems of violations shoud be done - even if that means diluting the cultures in question.
What's your opinion on this, Person? Is there a limit to how much a culture should have to retreat in order to promote human rights?
Great blog!
Thats such a great blog!
Wow this is good stuff here...
It is almost impossible to believe that an Egyptian is actually saying this!!
Egypt is NOT a dictatorship in the sense of North Korea or Saddam Hussein's Iraq but an authorarian society like Malaysia, Singapore and South Africa.
Compare Egypt to Malaysia, Singapore, and South Africa.
Eventhough the Muslim Brotherhood not a legal political party, it is a legal NGO and its members can contest as independent candidates.
Why can't secularists contest as independents?
Aside, when we speak of the Copts, I've read that the Copt race is an evil race that carries the guilt of enslaving the Islamic Prophet Moses(PBUH) under the Pharoah? The Copts tormented the Muslims and their leader Moses(PBUH) and God drowned the Pharoah in the Red Sea and freed the Muslims.
Our current Pharoah is Pope Shenouda III, a racist dictator like Adolf Hitler.
Moses(PBUH) was an Arab according to the Quran and NOT a Copt.
The Islamic armies who conquered Egypt under Caliph Umar completely destroyed the Copt race as the wrath of Allah Subhana Wa Taala in the same way as Americans destroyed the Red Indians.
Copts like Red Indians should bear collective guilt of their past evils.
You think just because you Copts built the pyramids you are great? The Red Indian tribe Incas build the Meso-American civilisation and pyramids but they committed terrible sins, so Allah(SWT) destroyed them using the Whites.
We will expul every Copt race from Egypt, and reserve it only for Arab race, in the same way as we will expul every Jew from Israel and establish the Arab Republic of Israel.
We shall f*ck every Copt girls and Jew girl and your Pharoah Shenouda III cannot stop this!
Islam shall prevail not man-made religions.
Addendum:
Coptic Orthodox Church is a racist Nazi organisation advocating the Copt race.
Copts pracise evil rituals by worshipping in a pagan language, called Coptic. They write anti-Islamic poetry in Hieroglyphs, which they called Coptic language.
We should ban the Coptic language and cut off the tongues of animals who use this language, whether for speaking for worshipping.
F*ck the Copts and may Allah(SWT) curse the modern day Pharoah, Shenouda III.
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Egyptian person, your modestly named blog has escaped my attention all this time. finally, someone who writes some sense bar one or two other people in the egyptian blogosphere.
You took the words right out of my mouth: "when the people are the source of dictatorship". You're a million times right. Yes governments do oppress their people and can and are a source of dictatorship but what a lot of people fail to see is who carries out this oppression at grass root level. It's the common hussein, mina or whoever.
Didn't the Iraq-Saddam issue make this quite clear? Even though he was toppled the iraqis continued oppressing each other. You cannot blame a nation's depravity on one person. Each and every person must take responsibility for his her actions.
I am fed up to the teeth with egyptians constantly blaming mubarak for every miniscule problem instead of taking it upon themselves to change. Corruption, police brutality etc are all due to individuals taking bad actions.
When will we learn?
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Muslims were right::::Earning interest IS evil.
The gods are angry that I am educating Manifest Destiny's next target:::India. Money is not an issue on the other planets, and profit, interest and excessive consumption are things that hurt you in the eyes of the gods.
This can be considered a positive for India, for they received extra decades before this temptation was empolyed upon them. But now even communist China is corrupted by money.
The gods are "leveling the playing field", paving the way for The End globally.
The Mother Teresa issue was the attempt to help the Hindus achieve salvation under the positioning that is Manifest Destiny.
Your virginity may buy you tens of thousands of years up there.
What you hear is telepathic theater. What you see is real, what you see will be enforced::The god's positioning is Manifest Destiny. The will dispose of that planet one day as well, for the 20th century was heinous:::You have TWO planets you need to get off of!!!!
Manifest Destiny dictates a white-man's prophecy - White-man's world, white-man's Apocolypse:::
Twenty-somethings are conditioned to respond positively to magic::::::they are the extacy generation.
This is not by accident. Expect they will be an important generation ("in charge", etc) when the battle between the Anti-Christ and Second Coming of Christ ocurrs.
This of course will be a 20-year war-revelry cycle distraction theater, and they want these people consumed by the high level of magic that will ocurr.
This generation is The Damned::::You're all going to die PEAKING like you're on X.
Austrian Sigmund Freud is known as the father of psychoanalysis, yet people have (mental) health problems because of their disfavor, illustrating the preditory purpose of this discipline, this individual.
These people.
Of course Hitler was Austrian:::An Austrian-born leader of a foreign nation. Glock, maker of the semi-automatic gun favored by black street gangs such as the Bloods and the Crips, is Austrian.
RedBull Energy drink, Buwdeiser both Austrian. What role do Austrians play in the cigarette industry??
The Holocaust was foreshadowing.
The gods established the pattern::::: the Jews sacrifice to help the disfavored understand::::
1. 1492 exodus from Spain. Spain became evil - financed Columbus, initiated missionaries, USA (dumping ground of disfavored, victimized by god), etc.
2. Spread throughout Europe as clue to Christians worshipping a false god.
3. "Quasi-Holocaust claim" contradicting boss.
4. 5. 6. 7. etc. etc. etc.
The Apocalypse (or an Apocalyptic event) will be initiated by an Austrian. When the national referendum to allow foreign-born individuals to run for president is introduced I recommend you DEFY and vote NO!! In the years prior to this vote the gods will send POWERFUL clues suggesting the IMPORTANCE OF DEFIANCE.
Apex of irony in the Situaiton:::Jew calls in Quasi-Holocaust claim and takes boss, re-igniti
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damn fuck egypt,fuck da presedent n fuck egyptions i hate'em all..idiots
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