Plato's Playground
the devil, as we may say, is in the details. the catholic church, along with some chunk of protestants is not so loving and forgiving and accepting of homosexuals, tho you may be. and you could never be a priest(ess) in your church. those seem like rather rigid rules the effect of which is to demean some men and women in the first instance and all women in the second. i don't want to get used to that.
It is true, as I noted in my previous post, that the Jesus of the Gospels did indeed offer liberation from the OT rules, at least as I and many others read him. However, as DPR also says, most Christian churches still cling to some of those rules, albeit selectively. In doing so, they are providing religious authority to what are really cultural norms of the societies in which they are embedded, such as patriarchy. Note that most Christian churches in the U.S. endorsed slavery back in the day, now they don't. Now, for some reason, we have had a mass movement turning back to the cruel, murderous, tyrannical God of the pentateuch.
the catholic church, along with some chunk of protestants is not so loving and forgiving and accepting of homosexuals, tho you may be.
The systems which require clearly drawn lines are very earth bound institutions including governments and the church.
That sounds pretty much like what I meant when I wrote: The systems which require clearly drawn lines are very earth bound institutions including governments and the church.
Just because a certain gang of people dressed in robes claim to be the keepers and the knowers of the Holy doesn't mean they are. And at the same time, just beacuse of their failings doesn't take anything away from the real Presence of the Holy where (if) you find it. The main way God works in the world seems to be through all of us lapsed and fallen people. The Church claims some perfection, but not because of the idiots and fools who run it. It is in its brokeness and foolishness that it is transformed (by grace) and anyone who claims
to be able to stand between communion with God and a person is trying to be a wedge. Indeed any of us may turn away from God through our sins, but God is always present and waiting. No one can truly shut another person out of that most intimate, closer than your next breath experience.
...at which point everyone runs from the room, their hands thrown up in frustration, leaving me here to babble on alone....
i'm still in the room. i applaud your compassion and personal relationship with the divine, and i certainly don't hold you responsible for anyone but yourself. my point is that an appalling number of your co-religionists and those (mainly men) in robes and collars are both bigots and misogynists. in light of the severe problems of overpopulation and the problems faced by women i find the pope's position on birth control to be a stunningly awesome moral failure. i hasten to add protestant leaders of the same mind in my condemnation.
the current issue of salon.com has an article on the clash between religious progressives and conservatives you may find interesting.
You know DPR, it's funny peculiar, because I'm with you so much of the way. It's something of a miracle that I ever made it into the fold of the Catholic Church because there is so much I'm against in the institution. All I can say on that is that it shows the really strong power of an intimate experience of the Holy present in worship in sucha severely warped institution. Just like meaning which gets expressed by approximation through words, Spirit gets offered out and experiened through a remarkably disgustingly broken institution. Somehow knowing how broken and corrupt it is has helped me to recognize the presence of God that is there. It makes sense to me, but I'm not sure if it would to others.
I'm hearing ya, Speechless. You encounter God in the community worship experience. Despite the sinfulness of the worshippers and the sinfulness of the institution of the Catholic Church, God breaks through. What is the church but a group of sinners gathered to repent, ask forgiveness, and worship God? Despite our sinfulness we encounter the Holy and are made holy ourselves. How could the institution be anything but sinful, when it is made up of sinners? Where is the perfect church? There ain't no such thing.
Jane, all that and in the Eucharist which is as powerful and intimate a sense of the Presence as is the community. I never expected the Eucharist to have that power. As a younger person it didn't do anything for me. As a Quaker I finally discovered I was longing for something more than just the gathered meeting. It was a real ephiphany: I needed and wanted was available in the liturgy.
The Eucharist is powerful for me too, and, for that reason, I attend a church that has frequent Eucharistic celebrations. As to how exactly Jesus is present in the Eucharist, I like what Queen Elizabeth the First said,
He was the Word that spake it.
He took the bread and brake it.
And what his word did make it,
That I believe and take it.
Yeah, I've never understood the why either. I do though have a very strong image of his eyes looking at me as he offers the bread "Take and eat. This is my body, given for thee." and again his eyes, looking directly at me, "Take an drink. THis is my blood, the blood of the new and lasting covenant..." I don't write this to push it on anyone. I've just found that knowing those eyes, seeing me, offering himself up for me, for us. It is very moving. I do believe there's an effectiveness in the Eucharist which holds you in that holy space, but I can't explain why.
I do believe there's an effectiveness in the Eucharist which holds you in that holy space...
Amen!
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