Plato's Playground
Now Cervantes, you have done a fine job of clarifying some of this history. But you're marching us into deep water, and it's getting quite muddy when you trampling round so much near the end.
The Ho De No Sau Nee, are I believe the same Mohawk people of Akwesasne in in upper New York? I came of age hearing that our U.S. constitution had been framed (stolen) from their agreement between their 6 nations.
A good few years ago now, a group of us Quakers were involved in helping to rebuild the Freedom School of Akweasasne. The school had been built with the intention of keeping alive the ancient language and teachings of the Mohawks-- but the land it was on was toxic, thanks to the Reynolds Wrap aluminium people (and our use of the stuff) , so a new school was to be built.
We had great plans for a workcamp, and had meetings with the tribal leaders. I asked one of them about the whole matter of names and how they liked to be called. He was so kind about it, saying Indian was fine with him...somehow that stayed with me. It carried so much peace and forgiveness in it, not fussing about the name, but seeing each other as people.
There was a fascinating interplay of Indian (waiting for the propitious moment to arrive )and Quaker (careful planful) cultures which ultimately led to very little getting done. I'm not sure if the new Freedom School got built, but I think it did. The timing was altogether different from the white man's timing, andthe experience offered a little window into a different appraoch to the world.
Ultimately it seems to me that the problems we have today in Western & Capitalist Culture is not because of Christian perspective or a vengeful God perspective. I think it has a lot to do with the failure to recognize the Holy Presence alive and at work in the world. This loss of feeling for the Sacred is a result of greedy anxious mind which has engendered runaway Capitalism and killed off the natives peoples of this land. The sin belongs to most of us.
Hey Cervantes, I posted something over at my place which was provoked partly by your comments here. Not sure if it will speak to you, but it might. Come see...
Yes the Mohawks -- the Genienkahaka -- are one of the six nations, and Akwesasne is their name for the reservation.
Well, I agree I'm wading in muddy waters here but that's where I want to be. It is indisputable that Christian theology, in every denomination, maintains that salvation is only possible through Christ, and that people who are not Christians are alienated from God, which is purported to be the worst possible fate and includes, among its disadvantages, the damnation of their immortal souls. That is precisely, absolutely, and indisputably, what Christians believe. If you do not believe that, you are not a Christian.
At least that's what I learned in confirmation class. Episcopal, to be precise. Catholics believe that Episcopalians are going to hell, for that matter.
"Peace . . . flourished only in a garden fertilized with absolute and pure justice. It was the product of a spiritually conscious people. "
now there is a fitting condemnation of a large chunk of our current population.
"He also argued that humans were given the gift of reason in order to settle their disputes without violence."----there's a dope-slap for all too many humans.
Well Cervantes, I agree the waters are muddy, but you're muddying them up even more so with your generalizing. I'll need to rest some before I can address your statement above. So please bear with me.
Thanks
So I asked for patience, and I suppose it's been granted. I've been hunting round for worthwhile quotations, and have found and misplaced a few....but in the meantime I've come to see that the task is too large for me. I can't, have little desire to, and don't need to defend the good of the Christian faith, and I have no wish to excuse or be an apologist for the bad.
Life comes to us in packages we didn't put together, but have opened and are making the best (or worst) of. Making peace with the past is in itself a very difficult task, and even when you think it's done, it rises in a new way and must be done again. So be it.
Anyone caring to embrace the name Christian today, in this land, surely must do it with humilty and trepidation. And I'm sure just as many of those who don't embrace the name, but have forebears who did, must approach their history with equal humilty and contrition.
Now, why don't I hear anyone trying to explain about the egregious sins of capitalist greed?
ps, I put a poem on my blog which relates to some of these difficulties. You may want to read it, the one on minnows.
Thanks Speechless, but as I'm sure you know, I'm not a capitalist either.
Look, here's the issue as I see it. There are many people, and I'm sure you count yourself among them, for whom certain Christian beliefs are central to their approach to being in the world, but who can readily accept that other people hold different beliefs that also have a claim to validity. Unfortunately, being a member of a church implies, at least according to the people who run the church, that you have to accept the beliefs of that church.
Your new Pope has been very clear about this: he denounces the idea that religions other than Roman Catholicism can offer salvation, calls other religions (including Protestantism) "lesser" faiths, and is scornful of secularism. He also says, just as clearly, that to be Catholic, you must accept all of church doctrine, and if you do not, he would just as soon you leave the church. In other words, if you do not believe that I will spend eternity in hell, you are not a Catholic. Nothing stops you from going to mass, but Pope Benedict the XVI would prefer that you do not. And he has even made it personal: he has said that John Kerry should not be given communion.
For those who are interested, here's the web page of the environment division of the St. Regis Mohawk tribe, which includes a link page.
Thanks to tribe member Barbara Namias for the link.
Cervantes, There are many of us within the walls of the institutional Church who recognize and pray regularly for its conversion. Naturally there is always the question of whether one works for change from within or on the outside.
All I can tell you is that within the broken, corrupt body of the church there abides a spirit which is Holy, and while I find that here, here is where I'll remain.
I suspect that that Holiness comes not from the grand and glorious aspect of power traipsing around in robes, but from the ongoing experience of carrying out the corporeal acts of mercy, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, burying the dead, visiting those who are imprisoned etc. Naturally, these things can be done from outside the walls of the church and be done well, but if you are called to live protected and sancitified by the Mercy of Mother Church, then it is there you'd best be. That's as much of the story as I claim to understand.
Oh and by the way,for whatever it's worth, just so you know, I'm not just speaking for myself, but I know there are a lot of people within the realms of the Church who work and pray for its conversion just as I do.
Well, thanks so much for your response. But I still don't get it. The church consists of a bunch of (nominally) celibate old men parading around in very expensive medieval costumes and insisting that we all believe in 14th Century morals and metaphysics or God will torture us for all eternity.
I say, to hell with them. Why give them your money to spend on their palaces and household servants and solid gold candlesticks, their crusade against reason, their murderous campaign of repression and ignorance, their contempt for women, their hatred of democracy, their vicious sexual bigotry? Why offer them legitimacy, respect, even toleration? The Cardinals are evil, and their church is monstrous. The world would be far better off if it ceased to exist.
And you know what? I think you believe that too.
I guess I reckon God is bigger than the church.
God has worked in human history in the most unexpected ways, and has redeemed those who seemed unredeemable individually and collectively. Miracles do happen through prayer.
Also there is peace and refreshment to be found in the church. The sacraments are a gift for the people, and outside the church they are not available. That matters to me.
Yes, but the sacraments are available in any Christian church. Well, the Society of Friends is unstructured, but you can go to a UCC church and get the prayers and the hymns and the sacred concert. They only do communion a few times a year but otherwise it's all there, and none of those crabbed old Bishops to put up with. Plus everybody is welcome. I'm not questioning your beliefs or the importance of the ritual to you, I'm focusing very specifically on the Catholic church.
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