There have been various theories over the years. I think the genetic one is the least likely to be true - or if true it applies to only part of the Jewish community. I would happily lay a large sum of money that the vast majority of those nobel prizes relate to Azhkenazy Jews and European Jews generally, rather than the Ladino Jews of North Africa or the Jews of Persia.
I would say that the remarkable success of the Jews is probably due to the following factors:
1. The emphasis in their religion on
the written word and its exegesis (with vigorous debate being positively
encouraged).
2. The experience of exile, which
gave even greater emphasis to the importance of their "intellectual" life, there being no opportunity to put energy into temple building. religious institutions and so on.
3. Overcrowding in the ghettos. I have read one suggestion that in the extremely overcrowded world of the ghetto there was little opportunity for personal aggrandizement through personal wealth and ostentatious displays. Once again there was a strong emphasis on books, the written religion, music, the arts.
4. The persecutions and legal restrictions. These led the Jews into certain professions and trades e.g diamond working, banking, shop keeping etc which when world trade and the industrial revolution got going meant that they were well placed to benefit financially. IN comparison with the mass of gentile peasantry they had a head start.
5. The strong emphasis on monogamy and family life, derived from the ethical religious tradition (strangely since as the Mormons show there is plenty of scope for justifying polygamy via the OT.
6. Multi-linguism. Jewish exile obviously led to a multi-lingual experience, which meant that with the coming of the modern age Jews were often well placed to absorb influences from several cultures and combine them in new and effective ways.
7. The fact that Christian Europe when it liberalised itself welcomed the talents of Jewish people. (We see that Jews trapped in the Islamic world have been far less successful.)
I think the above are the main reasons why Jews have been successful. It is
difficult to think of another people who have enjoyed so many advantages and "disadvantages which turned out to be advantages". However, I think that the edge Jewish people had at the beginning of the modern world have been reduced. In one sense we are "all Jews now" - we are all much more cosmopolitan, much more open to influences from more than one culture, much more open to debate issues, much more in awe of the written word. I very much doubt that the proportion of Nobel Prize winners between say 1900 and 1930 who are Jewish will be greater than the proportion between 2000 and 2030.
Interesting comment field.
Id like to determine what proportion are Azhkenazy Jews. I wouldnt know how to get this data though.
i) emphasis on debate and the written word - yes, agree. I think the ability and willingness to debate and criticise is key. Closed minds produce nothing of value.
ii) your point about there being little opportunity for self-aggrandisement would for me, argue against a more productive society. That's basically socialism and it has produced little of lasting value.
Were the kibbutz productive?
iii) Is monogamy important? the Mormons are testament to how polygamous societies can also be highly productive.
iv) Christian Europe only sporadically welcomed Jews. Russia and Germany and most of Eastern Europe hardly laid out the red carpet.
Easy; among all peoples they are most at one with their religion AND government
Pommy -
I said "liberalised" Christian Europe welcomed Jews. I'm really talking about the period between the French revolution and the rise of nationalism/racism - 1780 to 1850 roughly. Had the welcome not been there, the Jews could hve achieved very little. They were allowed out of the ghettos and into mainstream society.
The point about self-aggrandizement is not really a pro-socialist one. I would agree that the Kibbutz movement tended to diminish Jews. Jews have been more successful when they have been fully individual outside a communalist environment - in science, in the arts, in commerce.
No, the point about that was that if you are living in a really crowded environment (and many of the Jewish ghettoes in Europe were EXTREMELY crowded with several to a room) there was no prospect of putting your energies to making a nice living space for yourself. There was no cottage or house for you to put your energies into fixing and imrpoving. You were thrown back on religion, books, music etc.
Lord Nazh - Don't really understand your comment. You will have to elucidate.
Fascinating post and comments Pommy...and astute observations no doubt....the emphasis on family, morality and intellectual pursuits didnt hurt either!
Angel - it's just a question i find intellectually interesting. Why do Jews punch so far above their weight in such a broad number of fields.
Why do some persecuted groups descend into anarchy and despair and others use their awful surroundings to inspire them to great things?
I don't really find any of those answers overly satisfying. If I had to offer a guess I would say it has something to do with motivation. Most successful people I meet are pretty open minded and bright but what generally sets them apart is not raw talent but motivation and focus over the long haul.
Terje
Sure, motivation is key. But why should only Jews be motivated?
Also - i think traders in HK have read your ALS post. The Chinese stock mkt is down 7% and still falling. 
I'm not sure why Jews should exhibit higher average levels of motivation but I do think that is where the cause lies. Perhaps their culture or religion, their minority status or experiences of hardship lead to higher motivation. However as I said this really is a guess.
Their religion and government lead to motivation, it is the way they are raised (I know a few jews).
"Why do some persecuted groups descend into anarchy and despair and others use their awful surroundings to inspire them to great things?"
Because most persecuted groups are given 'hand-outs' to help them. Therefore stifling their motivation to rise up. I mean, why try harder if the mean people are going to give it to you.
See : most poor people in developed nations, most developing nations governments, etc.
Why do some groups go down? Well one has to look at the Jewish experience in context. During the centuries of persecutino and legal restriction Jews were never - or hardly ever - reduced to a slave existence. Their family units were not broken up; they were not made to engage in extreme manual labour; apart from the occasional pogroms their women were not sexually abused; although they were excluded from various educational establishments, they were not actively prevented from owning books and so on. Of course African Americans, were subject to this extremely violent form of slavery for several hundred years followed by a hundred years or more of very violent oppression. That is enough to explain a good deal of the relative positions of Jews and African Americans. During the Nazi persecution, where Jewish family units were broken up, they were actively prevented from educating themselves and they were forced into extreme manual labour, I think we began to see the Jewish community buckling under the pressure - as any group would. Had this slavery been continued for two hundred years I very much doubt there would be anymore Jewish nobel prize winners.
What Field says.
field - i dont think i had ever looked at it that way before. interesting.
nazh - exactly what Aboriginal leaders here are beginning to say - STOP THE HANDOUTS!
I can recommend the book Hitler and the Holocaust by Robert S. Wistrich for a basic explanantion of Jewish involvement in European finance since the middle ages, something which had a role to play in the development of European anti-Semitic sentiments.
It's a good book regardless.
This is an interesting question.
Though I have not fully researched the numbers etc, I suspect that the case is somewhat overstated, with respect to Nobel prizes. First, as I only have Wikipedia's figures to 2005, I have scaled up the total prizes from 660 (to 1990) to 770 (to 2005). Then I note that out of those 770 prizes, 418 (54+%) are awarded to residents of 4 counties (USA, UK, Germany and France) with a current total population of 500 million (8.33% of that stated 6 billion - now I understand 6.5 billion). This means that those living in one of those 4 countries, on the Nobel prize scale at least, punch some 6.5 times above their weight.
I also note that, currently, 6.75 million of the total 13 million Jews actually live in those 4 countries; that is 52% of them. If every one of the 165 Jewish Nobel laureates were from those 4 countries (which I must agree is most likely not totally correct), that would increase the punching above weight from a factor of 100 to a factor or 192 (because of the population reduction from 13M to 6.75M), but then pull it down by a factor of 6.5 relative to the "competing" non-Jewish population. This gives a punching-above-weight factor for Jews of 29.5. Actually, it would be less, as not all Jewish Nobel laureates come from those 4 countries.
Finally, on the statistics, I note there are 27 Swedish laureates, which is 3 per million of population, compared to the USA's 0.53 per million of population and 0.84 for the "4 countries". So Sweden punches 23 times above its weight; I wonder why. Still, that's enough of statistics.
We now come to the Holocaust. It is my understanding that some 6 million Jews were eliminated in this, out of a total population that must have been significantly less than 13+6 million. I would have thought that many of those who survived and procreated would have been, at least by timely emigration etc, of above-average foresight and of above average financial means: both of which are, somewhat at least, indicators of above-average intelligence. This would, I hypothesise, have had a material effect on the statistics of current Jewish intellectual ability, especially given their culture of somewhat favouring within-group marriage. However, I don't have any figures to hand, and am reluctant to spend the effort searching them out. If this hypothesis of mine is correct, I would expect that the proportion of post-WW2 Jewish Nobel laureates, normalised for the total Jewish population, would be noticeably higher than that of the pre-WW2 Jewish population, even after any other appropriate adjustments for nation of residence (and the effect of national economic and educational strengths) etc.
I'm not sure where that leaves us, except that I don't think the effect is as strong as Pommygranate does. In so far as it is stronger, there may be cause other than religion, though I also believe that culture (and being Jewish reflects both) is more likely the stronger e
Here is my full last paragraph, which I suspect was truncated, perhaps because my overall comment was too long.
I'm not sure where that leaves us, except that I don't think the effect is as strong as Pommygranate does. In so far as it is stronger, there may be cause other than religion, though I also believe that culture (and being Jewish reflects both) is more likely the stronger effect. This is, I believe, also the case for those 4 countries I mentioned, which are the largest economies arising from Western European cultural and intellectual advances over the last 600 years.
Best regards
MJW
Jewish involvement in European finance
This is the stereotype image of the Jew - a wealthy banker. The reality is their success crosses all fields.
Nigel
I would have thought that many of those who survived and procreated would have been, at least by timely emigration etc, of above-average foresight and of above average financial means.
Yeeew. Dangerous ground. Yes, id agree that they were probably of above average financial means, but foresight too?
I dont think you can say that those who remained in Germany, Poland and Austria were less intelligent than those who fled. More than a little insulting and i think a sweeping statement too far.
Your point about the 4 countries is very valid though. Reduces the factor from 100 to 29 - still difficult to explain.
Wow.
Great thread. Not sure I'd agree with all of it though.
j
JJ
Which bits?
Moving on from that. This recent article just shows how Jews have to be strong and resolute
http://ws.collactive.com/points/
...id=oEEMdXVtpeWU
JJ
Fascinating article. Im turning it into a post if you dont mind.
Darwinism? Having been so severely persecuted by pretty much everyone else on the planet for millennia they have selectively bred themselves into one of the toughest and most resourceful peoples alive.
I haven't got much else to add, except that I enjoyed reading the discussion generated above..
In line with what has already been mentioned, I did read somewhere that Ashkenazi Jews have an average IQ of 120, and this is generally attributed to many centuries of working in Europe's finance sector, in part due to being barred from many other professions..
Now, looking at Israel's various neighbours... there is scientific evidence that procreation between cousins reduces the child's IQ on average by about 7 points (there'd of course be attenuation with repetition).
although cultural and religious reasons play a far larger role in the reasons why Israel stands so far above its neighbours in the Middle East.
The comment I made about European Finance is relevant, according to Prof Wistrich (who is Jewish and an expert on anti-Semitic theory) the socio-economic position of the certain European Jewish communities (I'm wary of using to broad a brushstroke) can be traced back to the middle ages when they were willing to work as tax collectors, financiers and money lenders to European rulers. At the time there was much consternation about usury amongst many of the Christian populations of Europem which made such professions unpopular. The argument is that communities which are already well established in such influential and wealthy fields as finance and banking are more likely to facilitate the kind of investment in education that produces influential writers, scholars, scientists, medical professionals etc etc
I think what this discussion shows that it is always dangerous to simplify.
The success of Jews has been the result of a confluence of many factors interacting in all sorts of complex ways. But as I have suggested I think that where these factors did not all apply e.g. North Africa there isn't any great evidence of exceptional achievement - at least not at Nobel Prize level. We are basically talking about the success of European Jews (including those who then went to the US).
Regarding IQ tests which were mentioned it is important to recognise what a fluid concept is IQ scoring. Actual achievement in IQ tests more than doubled in the fifty years after world war 2 in the general population. It isn't an absolute measure (and what it's measuring is highly debatable). I wouldn't be surprised if one had measured Ashkenazy Jewish IQ in 1900 to find it was at 130 - because they would be up against a mass of people who had barely thrown off the "dumbed down" mindset of the peasantry.
When it comes to attempts at Darwinian style explanations, that is pure speculation. Whilst rich and resourceful Jews might have escaped, you might equally say that those who survived in the camps and elsewhere in Europe (and there were about a million so I believe) were exceptionally tough and resourceful. Who knows?
An interesting discussion indeed. In general, I tend to agree with the excellent remark by field here: "the success of Jews has been the result of a confluence of many factors interacting in all sorts of complex ways". I would be very careful with IQ-related researches, which tend to reflect more the general education level and competitiveness than anything less.
To support another suggestion by field: looking at where we are today (Israel) as compared with the diaspora situation, it seems (I want to be careful here) that Israeli population in general tends to produce much less Nobel-level achievers than that of the diaspora.
Of course, this observation could be skewed by political and other factors that impact the distribution of Nobels, but I would venture a guess that Diaspora provides a naturally competitive environment that is less significant here.
Thought I would throw in my two cents...
Or, and re success: the picture that precedes this post reminded me that success is not precisely the first term I would use to define the 20th century as far as Jews are concerned.
But then it could be said about most European nations as well...
Snoopy
it seems (I want to be careful here) that Israeli population in general tends to produce much less Nobel-level achievers than that of the diaspora.
Is that true? Do you have evidence for that?
If so, it would be equivalent to the huge success of the Chinese diaspora across SE Asia as compared to the minimal achievements of the Chinese at home (caused by centuries of tyrranical rule).
Ben - Darwinism is one theory. but why havent the Palestinians used their dire conditions in the Arab refugee camps to produce something similar?
Popovich - the marrying cousins theory is actually genetic fact. Producing a child between closely related adults is highly dangerous.
MJW - Still not sure i follow your logic. Usury doesnt necessarily imply higher intelligence. Though evading anti-Semitic Christian rulers probably does.
pommygranate,
Well, the statistics of Nobel prizes show only three winners for Israel.
Another point could be that Israeli population, while showing a bit more higher education graduates, has to be split into the normal socio-economic slices you can find in any other country, and the motivation to go into sciences (to take one example) is less strong than in the diaspora.
But this is some armchair sociology, so I better desist...
And you have quite a mean blog here yourself, so I think I shall link up.
Done.
Cheers and best.
Christ! Look at the size of this thread?
Why do subjects relating to the chosen people ® always elicit such interest?
That's another question?
Nigel Sedgwick
"Finally, on the statistics, I note there are 27 Swedish laureates, which is 3 per million of population, compared to the USA's 0.53 per million of population and 0.84 for the "4 countries". So Sweden punches 23 times above its weight; I wonder why. Still, that's enough of statistics."
No coincidence I suppose that, except for the Peace Prize, it's basically Swedish committees which select the laureates?
thanks snoopy.
umbongo - fair point!
Very interesting thread. I came from a Catholic background, and my wife from a Protestant background. We had no real exposure to any Jewish people until our late teens or early twenties. I remember a Dutch friend remarking that he thought a girl friend of ours was Jewish! as if it was something of great significance, and I thought, so what? It didn't really mean anything to me.
Then during our twenties we met a number of people, all of whom were:
1. bright
2. somewhat abrasive, and
3. good with money.
It later turned out that all of them were Jewish, which we both thought a remarkable coincidence.
I remember travelling in France with a young Jewish South African man. He maintained that the notion that French people don't speak English was just so much nonsense. You have to shout at them, he said. Like this: he went into a shop. "HAVE YOU GOT ANY CIGARETTES?", gesticulating wildly with his hands at the shopkeeper. Of course they understand, he said. Somewhat abrasive.
Yes I know you can't generalise; one Jewish family I know are not like that (well actually they're bright, but not abrasive or good with money). Actually, now I come to think of it, they are pretty good with money LOL!
It is hard to speculate. I personally think the main thing was the long period in which Jews were excluded from so many livelihoods, and made their way by trade. But then that doesn't really explain the intellectual excellence.
Did you hear the one about Abraham and Isaac? They meet after forty years. 'So what are you doing these days Ikey?'
'Well I'm a professor of mathematics at the university.'
'A professor of mathematics! Oh that's great. You were always so good at maths in school too'
'What about you Abey? What are you doing?
'Matter of fact I'm a billionaire. I've got my own confectionery business.'
'A billionaire! Say that's remarkable. And you were always so poor at maths at school too, as I remember!'
'Well, yes, I was poor at maths, but I always follow the old one-per-cent rule, and it's always served me well.'
'The one-percent-rule? What's that?'
'You see, I buy the lollies for one cent, I sell them for two cents. I buy them for one cent, I sell them for two cents. And you know, all those one percents add up!'
Boomboom.
Okay, what about this one?
An old New York widow determines to see the great guru in the mountains of ice. So for years she scrimps and saves, until at last she has enough to travel across the US, where she takes a ship to China. There she crosses the Taklamakan desert til she arrives at the foothills of the Himalayas. Climbs up, climbs up the mountains of ice, til she arrives at the great portal of the monastery of the great guru. Knocks on the great brass knocker. A monk, serene, answers.
'Yes?'
'I'm here to see the great guru.'
'Well, you'll have to wait. He can't be disturbed. He only gives an audience every three months.'
'That's okay, I'll wait.'
So she waits and waits, until at last the day of her audience arrives.
The serene monk says 'You need to understand, you can only have three minutes in the presence of the great guru.'
'That's okay, three minutes will be fine' says the lady.
'And there's another rule. You'll only be allowed to utter three words in the presence of the great guru.' says the monk.
'That's okay.' says the lady 'Just let me see him.'
So at last she is ushered in to the great guru.
She says 'Shlomo, enough already!'.
Hey, there's another thought: maybe being God's chosen people has something to do with it. The nature of God being what it is an' all, you'd think it couldn't hurt your chances, would you?
"Id like to determine what proportion are Azhkenazy Jews. I wouldnt know how to get this data though."
The vast vast majority of us are Azhkenazy, especially in the US. This should have good stats for you-- http://www.ajcarchives.org/
main....roupingId=10141
(stay away from that racist Murray if you go searching for stats--he's the one that wrote the Bell Curve and others)
I saw this at Afrospear and commented there--http://afrospear.wordpress.com/2007/06/02/
a-blueprint-for-success/#comment-527
"maybe being God's chosen people has something to do with it."
That's been seen as more of a burden and even a curse than as a good thing for many of us throughout history.
"Chosen" for what? is the question. Many of us have answered it with us having a responsibility to leave the world at least a tiny bit better than how we found it while we're here--social justice and progressive causes, etc, and personal and professional ethics and stuff. It's called "Tikkun olam"-- repairing the world. http://www.myjewishlearning.com/
...kun_Thought.htm
thanks for your comments amber, i'll check out those references.
No one has said this . . . the idea that the Hebrews are aided by Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews and the creator of the universe. His guidance in the lives of jewish people cannot be denied.
my dad when growing up in Iran in the 60's had lots of Jewish friends. the Jews in Iran are very bright mainly because of the family unit.
those Jews he knew were dirt poor (even though my dad was close to dirt poor too!)
but when he went over to their houses and hanged out with them he noticed their creed.
he summarized it like this to me a couple of days ago
" you are a minority the world wants to crush you, the Nazis tried to delete our people before, you must work hard to ensure our survival, get good jobs in trade, academia , and politics."
i find this to be true. in addition they have an extraordinarily good family unit, im not sure of the stats but i would guess very low divorces in their community.
overall GOOD FOR THE Jews we should commend them for their contribution to history "punch 100 times their weight lol"
the liberal Europe thing is somewhat true as well, even though Jews have lived in Iran for thousands of years little have they achieved
The simple answer to this can be summed up in one word:
Usury.
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