To my shame I still haven't read infidel. The people who are persecuting her (on the left) would no doubt see themselves as advocates of free speech. It's easy to defend free speech when there's nothing at stake. She is truly amazing.
Pommygranate I'd be interested to hear what your take is on free speech when it comes to people advocating violence. Do you think it should be illegal for someone to stand up in a Mosque and tell the congregation to kill infidels or do you think it's only the act of violence that should be illegal?
Ben
Do you think it should be illegal for someone to stand up in a Mosque and tell the congregation to kill infidels
Very little room for debate here.
It must be illegal to incite or to commit violence.
However, to simply agree with or empathise with Osama and his merry band of nutjobs must be never be banned.
Thomas Jefferson said that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
That sounds like an incite to violence to me. Granted it's not the same as saying "Go outside right now and kill the first person you see" but it's still advocating violence. Where is the line drawn?
Is saying "Kill those who threaten Liberty" (the essence of the Jefferson quote) protected speech yet saying "Kill those who threaten Islam?" Is not?
"I am a Muslim because I understand why so many Muslims are silent when the Holy Book is invoked to behead captured aid workers, journalists and other Western wanderers.
I am a Muslim because i understand why a woman ululates when her son dies in a suicide bombing. She rejoices for her son's closeness to God."
Is that quote right? Did she say, "I am a Muslim," or "I am not a Muslim"? If she was explaining her apostasy then the latter would make more sense.
I think that hate speech that is made as a generality should be permitted, but conspiracy to commit violence and violence itself must meet the full force of the law.
Having said that I think that any such tolerance of hate speech should be limited to legal tolerance only and we should stand ready to condemn and refute those that peddle lies and hatred.
The Jefferson quote is a useful point of reference. Although Jefferson would probably be facing war crimes in the Hague if he were alive today. I'm not sure if that says more about the Hague or more about Jefferson.
I will be buying Infidel for somebody close and hopefully I will find time to read it also.
rebase
The quote is right. She was saying that she understands why a woman rejoices when her son dies. She did not say she condoned it. Far from it.
Terje
What Jefferson quote is that?
I was refering to what Ben said earlier:-
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
src=hsr#33255
[Ben Shurey is realy off the charts. Far as I can see this woman has not advocated violence, though if I were her (excised clitoris), I might wish some with a amputated penis, and a vacated scrotal sack.
Just what is it that you are 'suggesting', Ben Surey??? Are you suggesting that we locate you through your careless Web postings?
Daring us to take some sort of 'revenge'???
Ah, right. G]
Gerry,
I think you may have me out of context there. I wasn't saying that Ayan Hirsi Ali advocated violence at all. I don't understand how you could think I wrote that if you'd actually read what I had written.
I was asking Pommygranate's opinion on what he thinks should be done about people who use speech to advocate violence. In this case I meant the people threatening Ayan Hirsi Ali.
It's my opinion that no crime is commited until an act of violence takes place. I know this is a very extreme view as most people believe that inciting violence should be a crime too.
Are we now on the same page? I'd hate for you to have to track me down because I said the wrong thing.
Gerry
Ben's asking a very important question. The one of 'where do we draw the line'?
Ben - i disagree with you that incitement should not be a crime. The reason is that as Ayaan repeated time and time again for her audience last night, many young Muslims are completely brainwashed by the mullahs and will do whatever they say.
If you are in a position of influence (say, a teacher) and you incite people to harm others, you are MOST DEFINITELY committing a crime.
I struggle to see how you can take a differing viewpoint.
I like the jefferson quote though!
So was Jefferson guilty of incitement to violence? And was he in a position of influence?
Terje
No It's not directed at anyone specific.
Had he said "Kill the Jews", then lock him up.
Most apostates of Islam keep their silence out of fear, which is too bad. Maybe if enough people like Hirsi Ali step forward, the rest will.
Too many people still don't understand the true nature of Islam.
Rastaman
www.IslamaNazi.com
Rasta
I think their fear is well placed.
What Jefferson was saying is that ultimately liberty must be defended or lost.
Those who attack liberty are initiating or threatening violence against otherwise peaceable people. How often have we seen appeasers dominating debate in the face of brutal dictators in the hope that being appeasers will avert such brutal behaviour being perpetrated towards them?
Jefferson was appealing for self defence and not blind incitement to violence against innocents. There is a difference.
It is an important question Ben and one that democrats need to debate with all due seriousness. However, it's not a debate I would have with Sharia supporters - who would only use the debate to further their own ends.
Personally, I think it is important to preserve our liberty and therefore we should allow advocates of Shariah to make their case in a general way.
However, I have felt for a long time that we need some specific legislation on the following:-
1. Apostasy. It should be a crime to
advocate any form of punishment for apostasy (beyond exclusion from the religious community).
2. Charities that work for the implementation of Shariah. Are we nuts? Giving tax exempt status to people who want to overthrow our form of government!
3. There should be a specific ban on any party that advocates dismantling the democratic system taking part in our democratic system. Of course this has to be after lengthy and fair process through the courts. But it is essentially to protect our democratic systems from the impact of substantial Muslim populations who may support pro-Sharia policies and seek to destabilise our political systems. We know that minority parties that hold the balance of power can have an undue influence. It is crucial that pro-Sharia parties do not become the power brokers of the 21 st century in the democratic countries.
Muslims are always misunderstood.
Islam treats women with honour.
Islam means peace.
No they are not and no it isn't.
Good post.
The main difference with the Jefferson quote is simply that Jefferson is a man, and he is fallible. We are not burdened with interpreting his words literally for fear of eternal damnation. The Qu'ran on the other hand...
Excellent post (I didn't realise she was that pretty).
What Field says, completely 100%.
Pommy,
This reminds me of when I saw her in London 18 months ago.
http://www.thesharpener.net/2005...-ali-in-london/
amortiser - i agree 100% but sadly not all libertarians share your sentiments.
field - isnt advocating violence already a crime?
is it legal for a party to run for office espousing non-democratic principles? legal or otherwise, the problem here is that most hardline Muslim groups are now hiding behind taqqiya, for example Huzb-ut-Tahrir
Steve
Whats the Sharpener?
Talk about picking the low hanging fruit. Ali is the ex-Muslim who hates Muslims: great product positioning in todays market, but what she is saying is nothing new, and from what I've read, nothing meaningful.
Her core audience seem to be people who want to hear a black Muslim woman talk shit about Muslims. Kinda like politically correct feel-good bigots.
I bought the book today and I'm now about a quarter of the way through.
I chuckled at the part when she is a teenager in school and she learns that Saddam Hussein is a Jew that is working with the USA to attack Muslims (late 1980s).
The narrative thus far is very much about the confusion of growing up, the inconsistency and failings of adults and the playfulness and resilence of childhood. Perhaps somewhat surprising is that despite many key men in her life all the overt oppression (often severe capital punishment) to this point in the book has been largely administered by women (mother and grandmother) with only occasional exceptions. And that the brutality seems to come mostly from loving and otherwise very sympathetic and good characters.
The other thing that is intriging is how quickly some people that feel bitterly oppressed so quickly and readily become oppressive when circumstances are reversed.
I'll try and reserve making any broader conclusions until I have finished the book.
Tom - thus far I have not detected any hatred of Muslims in the book.
Field. If you ban any kind of speech, you ban my ability to debate why what is being said is wrong.
You can't get into peoples minds and tell them not to think a certain way. If you ban the speech you just force it underground.
If you keep it legal then it can be said out in the open and it can be refuted out in the open. I'm not afraid of words, especially words I know to be flawed and so easily refuted with reason.
"Muslims are always misunderstood.
Islam treats women with honour.
Islam means peace.
No they are not and no it isn't".
This is very harsh. Only some Islamic extremists may think and act in that way.
Israel's Six Day Way
Fantastic post Pommy. Thank you!
Jeremy J "Islam means peace" you are having a laugh aren't you?
Take a map of the world, then colour in the areas where there are conflicts. This is what has been referred to as "the bloody borders of Islam", name me one conflict where they are not involved.
Tom
Her core audience seem to be people who want to hear a black Muslim woman talk shit about Muslims.
Rad my post again. I specifically mentioned the fact that the audience was NOT a typical right-wing Islamophobe crowd.
You really need to have an open mind and not just read what you want to see.
Terje
The other thing that is intriging is how quickly some people that feel bitterly oppressed so quickly and readily become oppressive when circumstances are reversed.
Yes, but the corollary also applies. How quickly one can become happy and tolerant when one's circumstances are reversed. 
Delighted to hear you are reading Infidel - there's hope for the peacenik wing of libertarianism yet 
Saint and Mark - thanks
Hey Pommy,
Thanks for your notification on your post. I found it very interesting and informative. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a true heroine of mine. I did this post about her after seeing an interview on BBC's HARDTALK:
http://asabagna.wordpress.com/20...gs-and-culture/
Your post inspired me to buy her book "Infidel" today.
Have you heard of Nyamko Sabuni? She is the Swedish Minister of Integration and Equality. She has also enraged the Muslim community in that country for her opposition to certain practices associated with Islam. Here is a link to more about her:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle1816494.ece
Cheers Mate! (lol... I think that's an Aussi term!)
Asabagna
That is one hell of a show-stopping quote from Ayaan you have on your post. Wonderful!
cheers mate and have a fair dinkum day!
I understand you being bowled over by AHA. I remember hearing on the radio her polite, soft voice, eloquent in what must be her third language, defending freedom of speech and enlightened values generally. Everyone else on the subject seemed foggy and furry and compromising compared to her clarity.
I think hirsi Ali is getting all the publicity she is getting because she is bashing Islam, which has been the media's propaganda for the past few years. Now if she was any other religion and saying the same stuff about any other religion she would have been ignored and in fact if she was talking about judaism she would have been labeled as anti-semitie. Much of her credibility has been lost when it was discovered that she made up a whole bunch of lies about her background in order to get refugee status in Holland. Therefore, I don't think that it would be hard for her to make up lies about her life in somalia and being oppressed and all that stuff she is saying. Anybody can make up lies to get attention, and if that person plays on the right notes they can become mislabeled as brave, courageous, honorable, and so on. For me, there is a big difference between Islam and Muslims. Not everybody who claims to be a muslim and attributes their actions to Islam should be considered as a true representative of Islam.
daana
I agreee with you that there is a big difference between Islam and Muslims.
The reason she has such a huge following is that she experienced a horrific upbringing as a result of her family's blind deference to the Koran and has had the courage, which has imperiled her life, to speak out against this.
In my comment above about the book I refered to "capital punishment" where I actually meant "corporal punishment".
Pommy - surely the ultimate point of any worthy war is to achieve peace. In which case I'd say you are a peacenik also, it's just that in specific instances we make a different summation. I was in enough brawls during my youth to know first hand that bullies tend to back off when the fight hurts and I am most definitely not a pacifist. I do think peace is grand if you can find it.
Can we get it straight that FGM was a leftover from the pre-Islamic culture in Africa and in this instance its continued practice is actually an example of Islamic tolerance (for want of a better word) of a preexisting practice that is barbaric? As a strident atheist I have no desire to defend Islam as a benign religious faith but let's attack it for the right things? The irony of all this is that if she were using FGM to say 'all African cultures from my part of the world are barbaric' there would be an uproar of political correctnesss even among her supporters yet essentially this generalisation is closer to the truth than the one about Islam.
I'm sorry but she's gone through a lot and has some good ideas, yadda yadda but all in all I find her contributions superficial.
Jason
That is a point i have made. It's also the key point of difference i have with the Tim Blairites who don't see the need to differentiate between a cultural and a religious practice.
Welcome to my blog, btw!
Terje
I was in enough brawls during my youth
I didn't have you down as a violent man.
bullies tend to back off when the fight hurts
Indeed.
Pommy - touche.
Jason,
When you say FGM is not a part of Islam I take it that you say this because it is not in the Koran. If so I think you are ignoring the oral traditions of Islam and promoting the written version as being the only true Islam. This is ironic because it is what fundamentalist Christians and Muslims do all the time.
The idea that Christian or Muslim or Jewish thought and it's evolution ceased when their ancient books were canonized is actually much of the problem within these faiths today. It is what makes them closed systems of thought as opposed to open system.
Regards,
Terje.
Terje
for some background on this see this
http://www.minaret.org/fgm-pamphlet.htm
The evidence is that FGM was in the pre-Islamic culture and then Islam came along and this was one of those rare instances where Islam didn't totally wipe out the old culture.
"Although female circumcision is not mandated, one tradition of disputed authenticity permits (but does not encourage) the removal of a minuscule segment of skin from the female prepuce, provided no harm is done
One does not want to make too much of this tradition, as it is classified as "weak" by Abu Dawud (the compiler) himself. Nonetheless, it clearly forbids severity in circumcision and bases such limitation on both the potential to harm the woman and the potential to make her less desirable to her husband. Yet, despite the restriction against severity, the Prophet did not here prohibit circumcision completely. "
I lived in a majority Muslim nation (Malaysia) for 15 years and never heard of FGM simply because the pre-Islamic culture (the Malays) weren't into such rubbish.
Jason,
Saying FGM is not a part of Islam seems to me to be like saying that chocolate easter eggs or glossolalia are not a part of Christianity.
Regards,
Terje.
Jason Soon, bollocks, quite frankly, my Mrs is from Malaysia and I was horrified when I heard her discussing with a Malaysian female friend at what age girls should be circumcised, as if it were the most normal thing in the world.
However, I am prepared to accept that the ethnic Chinese in Malaysia don't get up to this sort of nonsense.
I just finished reading Infidel. What an absolutely amazing story.
Pommy I read this book in a large part because of your article. Thankyou.
Terje
Very pleased you enjoyed it. You're very welcome. Now please give Humphreys a copy. Where is he anyway?
It is both telling and disappointing that in this discussion of Ayaan Hirsi Ali you neglected to mention the fact that Ms Ali was expelled from the Netherlands on the grounds that she lied about just about everything on her asylum application. She lied about her name, her family history, her past, fabricated and concocted a story about her supposed ``forced marriage'' that wasnt in order to get accepted as an asylum seeker. The irony is that as an immigrant she ended up poisoning the relationship between the Dutch and their immigrant communities before getting expelled. A model for neither truth nor integration.
Take a map of the world, then colour in the areas where there are conflicts. This is what has been referred to as "the bloody borders of Islam", name me one conflict where they are not involved
OK let me start with a few -
1) El Salvador
2) Panama
3) Nicaragua
4) Chiapas
5) Colombia
6) Zaire
7) Rwanda
Sierra Leone
9) Apartheid era South Africa
10) American Civil War
11) Second World War
12) First World War
13) Cold War
14) Ulster
15) Basque Country
16) Greek Civil War
Wars involving Muslims -
1) Palestine - victims of dispossion and occupation
2) Bosnia - victims of ethnic cleansing and massacres
Satisfied ?
Can we get it straight that FGM was a leftover from the pre-Islamic culture in Africa and in this instance its continued practice is actually an example of Islamic tolerance (for want of a better word) of a preexisting practice that is barbaric? As a strident atheist I have no desire to defend Islam as a benign religious faith but let's attack it for the right things? The irony of all this is that if she were using FGM to say 'all African cultures from my part of the world are barbaric' there would be an uproar of political correctnesss even among her supporters yet essentially this generalisation is closer to the truth than the one about Islam.
I'm sorry but she's gone through a lot and has some good ideas, yadda yadda but all in all I find her contributions superficial
Well said !!!
"Wars involving Muslims -
1) Palestine - victims of dispossion and occupation
2) Bosnia - victims of ethnic cleansing and massacres"
Iraq, Iran, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, England, Spain, France, Cheychna, Malaysia, US (NY), Dafur, Somalia
The list goes on... conflicts ... muslims
Iraq - created by US and allies
Iran - US armed Iraq against Iran
Israel - Created by the West (US, Britain etc.) in 1947
Egypt - invaded by Israel, Britain and France
Saudi Arabia - 1st Gulf War (US)
Thailand - Opressed Muslim minority
England - Colonial power - divided up all disputed Muslim territories /nations (Palestine, Kashmir, Sudan, Nigeria, NFD etc.)
Spain - Involvement with Iraq War
France - Colonial adventure including the bloody Algerian civil war
Chechnya - victims (to borrow from SAS) of oppression and occupation
Malaysia - Provocation and instigation (US)
US - Need I say anything about this country which is involved with so many wars since its creation?
Darfur - Again the 'West' is behind this instigation
Somalia - US, USSR etc. theatre of Cold War - has never seen peace ever since!
Causal factors?
I am sure Western schools history lessons never mention any of these!
Konne
Keep taking the meds.
Last night, i joined 1,200 others at the Sydney Recital Hall to worship at the temple of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Yesterday I listened to a podcast that was largely a recording of the event. Ayaan was very concise and articulate.
Ayaan is a tom, she never read no Koran. She is a Sunni. Or used to be one.
The Quran(Koran) concerning justice:
"And among His signs are the creation of the heaven and earth, and the variation in your language and your colors; verily in that are signs for those who know" (30:22).
"Satan seeks only to cast among you enmity and hate"(5:91).
O you who believe! Stand out for justice, as witnesses to God, and even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be rich or poor. An-Nisaa’ 4:134
"O you who believe! Be the maintainers of justice and bearers of witness for God's sake though it be against your own self, parents and relatives" (4:135).
"O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous" (49:13).
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety and fear God, for God is well acquainted with all that you do. 5:8
And thus We made of you a justly balanced community that you might bear witness to humankind and the Apostle might bear witness over you. 2:143
The believers are nothing else other than brothers, Thus make peace between your brethren and observe your duty to God that you may haply receive His mercy (49: 1 0).
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