Why do you go to the extremist websites and then declare that what they say applies to all 1.2 billion Muslims? That is intellectually dishonest.
Another point. Since Islam does not have a clergy, any yahoo can get on a soapbox and say any nonsense. If you want to be intellectually honest, I refer you to the website of "Islam For Today" and its references to Al Azhar University, which is the largest institution of Islamic learning in the world and where Sunni Muslims from around the Islamic world go to study.
The following is from an author on that site: http://www.islamfortoday.com/khan01.htm
I am writing this memo to you all with the explicit purpose of inviting you to lead the American Muslim community in soul searching, reflection and reassessment.
What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values.
The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad.
Even if it were true that Israel and the US are enemies of the Muslim World, wonder what is preventing them from unleashing their nuclear arsenal against Muslims, a response that mercilessly murders thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of Muslims is absolutely indefensible. If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act?
While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), God also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).
Muslims, including American Muslims have been practicing hypocrisy on a grand scale. They protest against the discriminatory practices of Israel but are silent against the discriminatory practices in Muslim states. In the Gulf one can see how laws and even salaries are based on ethnic origin. This is racism, but we never hear of Muslims protesting against them at International fora.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine is perhaps central to Muslim grievance against the West. While acknowledging that, I must remind you that Israel treats its one million Arab citizens with greater respect and dignity than most Arab nations treat their citizens. Today Palestinian refugees can settle and become citizens of the United States but in spite of all the tall rhetoric of the Arab world and Quranic injunctions (24:22) no Muslim country except Jordan extends this support to them.
While we loudly and consistently condemn Isr
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While we loudly and consistently condemn Israel for its ill treatment of Palestinians we are silent when Muslim regimes abuse the rights of Muslims and slaughter thousands of them. Remember Saddam and his use of chemical weapons against Muslims (Kurds)?. Remember Pakistani army’s excesses against Muslims (Bengalis)?. Remember the Mujahideen of Afghanistan and their mutual slaughter? Have we ever condemned them for their excesses? Have we demanded international intervention or retribution against them? Do you know how the Saudis treat their minority Shias? Have we protested the violation of their rights? But we all are eager to condemn Israel; not because we care for rights and lives of the Palestinians, we don’t. We condemn Israel because we hate “them".
This is what the mainstream of Islam is saying Dave. These aren't the jihadists and Christian killers you claim all Muslims to be. You appear quite thoughtful on many other topics, so I ask that you be equally inquisitive about these subjects. Racism is easy because it requires little thought. Those same questions you asked of your grandmother, you should ask of these people who send you this stuff.
It is with the same honesty and intensity that I view rascism and Muslims. My issue with your very well thought out and well written response is your references have no foundation for their position.
Please understand, Islam is a religion built on a deception. The deception that Muhammed is greater than Jesus. The fact that their religion recognizes Jesus as "a prophet" calls into play C.S. Lewis's logical quandry:
"Either Jesus is who he says he was (God in Man form, the one who was prophecied) or he was a madman. There can be no in between."
I have previously addressed the Koran's position on Jesus. The intellectual dishonesty of calling Jesus "just a prophet" is not on my side of this cult. It lies on those who ignore the book they claim as their guide.
As far as contradicting passages in the Koran, they resolve their self-decepton by calling some passages "mansukh" or annulled by versus chronologically later.
In contrast, the Bible is a consistent accounting from Adam to Jesus. The Koran and the Bible have the same roots up to Abraham. Jesus meets every prophecy of the old testament written of the Redeemer who would come. There are no texts related to the savior in the old testament that are annulled, only confirmed.
If two branches share the same root and one turns in on itself with parts that are dead (annulled) which one do you prune?
I have not come to this thinking lightly. I would imagine that some would have some derogatory things to say about my position, but my main concern is to be foucsed on the truth.
Do some digging. See what you find like I did.
BTW: these media clips are from the main-stream networks of these countries:
Al-Arabiya TV (Dubai), Dubai TV (Dubai), Dream2 TV (Egypt), Channel 1 TV (Egypt), Palestinian Authority TV (Gaza), Al-'Alam TV (Iran), Sahar TV (Iran), Jaam-E-Jam TV (Iran), IRINN (Iran), New TV (Lebanon), Al-Manar TV (Lebanon), MBC TV (London), Al-Jazeera TV (Qatar), Qatar TV (Qatar), Iqra TV (Saudi Arabia), Channel 1 TV (Saudi Arabia), Syrian TV (Syria), Al-Majd TV (United Arab Emirates).
MERMI also analyzes content from specific credible sources:
Islamic clerics and leaders, Arab and Iranian journalists and editors (working in the Middle East and the West), academics and researchers, public opinion and policy makers, politicians (parliamentarians and government officials), military experts, intellectuals, and authors.
You haven't watched the suicide bomber cartoons yet, have you?
Great post Dave. Sometimes the truth hurts. Keep up the great work.
All your comparisons of religion are irrelevant to the issues I raised. You made very general statements in your post that are factually untrue. Not all Muslims are out to kill non-Muslims. Not all Muslims think you have to support "jihad" to be a "true" Muslim. And, the article to which I referred you is evidence of that.
It is completely beside the point if Jesus was a prophet or son of God according to the Quran. Islam recognizes the legitimacy of Jesus, unlike Jews who rejected his teachings.
Whether every network in those countries says bad things about Christians, it still does not represent ALL Muslims. By the way, it is important to note that many of those stations are state run by governments receiving financial and military support from the U.S. The Republican Congress is funding that crap. Bush invites those people to his ranch for parties and you're worried about all Muslims?
Let me make this argument crystal clear: IF the Koran calls JESUS a PROPHET how can Muslims reconcile that JESUS CLAIMED TO BE THE WAY (not A way, but THE way) to heaven.
I'll put it in contemporary context: David Koresh claimed to be the savior. We call him a cultic lunatic.
Therefore, Muhammed cannot be the prophet to follow if Jesus is who he says he was.
The truth is evident in the Koran because it ultimately lists Jesus as born of a virgin and one who performed many miracles. One cannot name someone a prophet and only listen to half of what he says. With true biblical prophets it is very much all-or-nothing when it comes to their proclomations.
The ONLY legitimacy of Jesus is that he truly is the word made flesh, the one who defeated death and arose on the third day. To disavow any of that is to deny Jesus entirely.
Islam is based on a lie. I believe that lie came from Satan and the lie is this: "Jesus was a great guy but not the one."
period
Like I said before, everything you just wrote is irrelevant.
This post and my comment to it had absolutely nothing to do with whether Islam is a lie or not. It had to do with you taking what some people say in some countries and attributing it to all 1.2 billion Muslims around the world. That's it.
Ok, I see your argument. However I do not think you are very familiar with this MERMI site.
Once you have spent some time viewing it you will find that it definitely focuses on mainstream Muslim figures and groups and not the "David Duke/Jerry Springer" types you are trying to attribute this site to.
In contrast, you site is a group of Muslims who deny parts of the koran because they rightfully make them uncomfortable. Either that or they are trying to put on a public facade to manipulate expectations, and they truly believe like the others.
Let me make this comparison: there are self-proclaimed "Christians" everywhere that would never have the courage to either tell someone what they believe or ask someone else what they think of Jesus. Yet the Bible is very clear that we are to share our beliefs. I am saying that many Muslims would be afraid to say what they really believe because of what you would think of them, just like those Christians.
I am not familiar with that site, although I have seen examples of the hate speech cited by them. I don't deny that it exists. My only point is that you concluded from those newscasts that ALL Muslims are raving murderers and that is where I take issue with the wording of your post. Since I believe in individualism, I believe it is wrong to judge 1.2 billion individuals based upon what some of them say or do.
Indeed, given that the Arabic-speaking world is a small fraction of the global Muslim population, what is said in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon has no bearing on the beliefs of Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia or the U.S.
I honestly don't care if many Muslims would or would not do something. I am not a religious person, so a bake-off between Islam and Christianity as to which makes better cookies is of no interest to me.
That said, from what I have read of the OT, NT and the Quran, I think the OT is disgusting and violent, the NT has great wisdom about love, and the Quran is sexist.
You know something funny, as soon as I said that about "David Duke" guess who was on MERMI...yup: David Duke. UGH!
Then we have mainstream media quoting MERMI here does go back to lending credibility.
Yes, the OT is violent. The Quran is sexist. The NT is the truth of the one true way unless one argues that Jesus is a lunatic.
My point in all this: most Muslims are just decieved. If they researched the question of Jesus more closely they would find HE is the truth, not the tale of Muhammed. It isn't wrong to be decieved into believing something false and doesn't make a bad person.
I'm just trying to show the truth to prevent deception.
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