great point!
I am with you wholeheartedly on holding the line on this, Candy! Though my sons are long grown up they always stayed with us in church. In our wonderful large church I see some of the raised in church kids going in wrong directions. Why do we think we need to win them and keep them with 'fun'?? I am looking forward to reading your little book!
Cindy
Such a great post, Candy! (As always--I expect nothing but brilliance from you *giggle*)
I've been thinking about your HMB "lite". What do you think of a different binder for each day of the week? Of course, I'd keep the main binder, but I could have a "lite" version with just the chores, lesson plans, etc... for that day of the week.
I guess maybe it's over the top, but I just love my HMB so much, that I can't imagine it's possible to have too much of a good thing!
I have a question unrelated to your post but its just something I wanted your take on. I have been a stay at home wife since 2006 and we are now being blessed with a baby boy, due in May. (We have lost 2 babies and had trouble conceiving over the last 6 years.)
I plan on continuing to stay home and homeschooling our child (and any future children) but I just wondered your opinion/advice on ways to add some extra income from home. My husband will be trying to go back to school to get a degree and a better job but in the meantime money is very tight.
I do sell Avon but with the economy being so slow, I'm really not making anything. Any ideas on making money from home? I have completed and received my diploma for dietary management but have not taken the licensing course. I don't know though, if there'd every be an opportunity where we live (SE TN) for that to be an at-home avenue.
Feel free to just email this and not post it if you'd like. I've been reading your blog for a few years now and value your wisdom and opinions.
Thank you and God Bless,
Jenny
Wow, that was better than a cup of coffee for me this morning!!!
My children attend children's church but we do discuss what they learned and what we heard in Big Church as they call it. I honor your position on not attending children's church though and truly wish I had not been "programmed" into thinking my kids HAD to go to children's church. We have tried to have them sit in big church with no luck...they like the kids songs and activities. Perhaps if we had started with them at a younger age it would be different, but again, we were misled that children's church was the best thing for their young minds. Our current church is not like that at all..I love my church here!!
I am also thankful that you mentioned the flashy way of learning as my son has been diagnosed with ADHD and I wonder if I mistakenly did that to him with all of the kid shows in his growing years. It was never mentioned to me that such things as that would cause ADD or ADHD..even when we saw the doctor. I do strictly limit TV and video game time, don't get me wrong there.
All I can say is I do have regrets of my past but I will move forward and learn from them. I am slowly realizing and admitting my mistakes as a mother, praying for guidance and wisdom for continuing my role as a Christian mother and wife.
Candy, you are a blessing and I so wish I could just hug you for all that you have shared with me and helped me grow in my walk. I thank God daily for putting your blog in my sight and you in my life.
Julie in Texas
Oh, forgot to mention that I would love a copy of that booklet you are working on about children's church. I would love to help other parents avoid that misleading belief and give them options to their decision.
Julie in Texas
Totally agree. In fact, our church stands when we read Scripture, our paster greats us with a "Holy kiss" and hug, our women & men .........well, our aim is Holy living. The children do have their own Bible study in the morning and then our small church feeds any one who wants it breakfast. We then are all called to the main room for church. Yesterday we were there for 4 and a half hours!! Some think that is way too long. I could stay the whole day!! Yes, sometimes the kids do sleepy, but our paster keeps us going and in the Spirit.
I too, think it is un-Biblical to seperate just because someone wants to have this club or group. I am "fighting" that now with a group that my 14 yr. old goes to occasionally. I can't even call it "youth group".....it's a social gathering. And since I know the kids and parents I do allow her to visit for an hour. It just drives me alittle nuts though for this church to even think this is Biblical. They don't even crack their Bibles. In fact, she doesn't even bring hers anymore....it simply isn't used, and I don't want her to forget it there. Even she said last month when we were talking about it, that this church is "shallow"!!! WOW!! So very thankful to God that my little ones can see so plainly what is of God and what isn't!!
Maybe my situation sounds alittle hypicritical to some. Please don't judge. I know it's not a Bible meeting, therefore we allow her to go and visit with her friends. I just wish churches would open their eyes to what it could become to our teenagers .......... a trap, a temptation, a guise of something good.
Okay, off the box!! Very good discussion Candy! I think more Mama's (& Daddy's) need to re-think what the local church think is "normal" for our own children!!
Be Blessed! Stand strong in God's Word!!
Right now our boys are in nursery during worship (they attend age appropriate Sunday School classes when we attend ours, but there is no video, audio, etc going on except some children singing hymns on tape when they enter). This is due to their total inability (due to their special needs) to sit in a worship service. This is what allows me to even go to church at all. BUT, the time will come when our kids will sit with us, it just takes a lot of extra training and understanding (understanding by and and our brothers and sisters in Christ that also attend our church). We are starting to bring our oldest son in to worship with us 1 day a month. We have a story we read him ahead of time that tells him what to expect (he can't deal with the unexpected), what the "schedule" of things is, and we give him pictures cues to allow him, during service, to know what's coming next (quiet way to fill him in and he can visually and with written word see what to expect).
I know this will take us a long time. We will increase his times per month sitting in service as his little issues allow. For example, when he can sit through one entire service, we will up his times per month to 2. When he can do it both times, we will up it to 3, and so on. We are excited about the prospect of him being able to sit with us in service. But we are also realistic as to his limitations and know it will probably take us a good 18 months to get this whole process done.
Be blessed that your children are with you. There are kids that can't do what they do and God has blessed you with this wonderful gift. If you want your kiddos with you in worship, don't let anyone try to bring you down for that decision. You are very patient. If he had done that to me, I would have said, "no thank you" once and if he continued to disrespect a sister in Christ (because it's disrepsectful to harangue people), then I would have simply said, "my husband is right there, please feel free to take this up with him".
I totally agree with you on this, Candy. We keep all five of our children (including our new baby girl that was born last Thursday!) with us in church. They are very well behaved because they have been doing this since they were babies.
No children's church for my children!
While my family doesn't attend on a weekly basis, I also agree with keeping your kids with you in church and am annoyed when we visit a church and are pressured to put them in a "program". I grew up going to a very conservative church and we were expected to sit and listen to the service like everyone else - and we did get alot out of it. They did have a "cry room" for people with very young kids or nursing moms, but this room was mainly just a room where you could hear the service and calm or feed your child without disturbing other parishoners.
Everyone - thanks for the great comments. 
Kari - I think what you are doing is fabulous. I'm sure your child is being blessed by being with you in church, even if it is only 1 day a month for the time being. I think it's great that you are commited and working with your child, instead of just leaving your child off to the "professionals," and not being proactive yourself.
I found your comment very motivating and uplifting, and hopefully someone else who has a child with similiar issues will glean some great ideas and encouragement from what you wrote.
We attend a very small church, with my 7 & 9 year olds as the oldest of the "little kids". There are some older teens, also. The mamas with younger children are really pushing to start a nursery and/or children's church. I have told them that I will not be missing church to watch their children, nor will my children be missing church to attend. This has caused some anger, but I go to church to listen and hear. I could not do that if I were in a room with 6-8 kids. My children have, since birth, attended services with me. They sit, they read along in their Bibles, and they listen. I had to take both children out once when each was less than two and discipline them for misbehaving. Since then, a look from Mama is all it takes if they start to get a little rowdy. These other parents let their children freely roam around the church during service adn they are a distraction, so several people are more than willing to start the nursery. And since I'm a mother, I am expected to do my "part".
I look VERY forward to reading your booklet. I pray you have the time soon to write your booklet. And I hope you publish it on your site also.
Carla
Thank you once again for bringing up this subject. I have found that many times I have something on my heart and you touch upon it--beautifully! You are a blessing.
I do believe parents should not be pressured to put there children in the church nursery or children's church and children can be expected to sit long enough to listen.....depending on their age and ability...some chidren just aren't as compliant or others have disabilities (autism, down syndrome, etc.)
Our church offers nursery for babies /toddlers & children's church for children up to the second grade. I know my second grader can handle sitting in church and listening....maybe someone else's child can't.
You said "In the Old Testament revivals, the Bible says that the people stood up, while the Scriptures were read aloud." However if you read in Nehemiah 8 it is mentioned twice that the Word was read to the men and the women and those that could understand what they heard. There is no mention of children. That leads me to believe that obviouly there were those that could not understand....young children I believe that to be or those that may have had learning disabilties.
HTM, I can show you Scriptures where it says their children were with them.
I don't think they had nurseries and children's church back then. Either way, it was never a big issue in the Bible, else it would have been mentioned.
When I get that booklet written, you'll see the Scriptures I have in mind.
You said it, sister! My Pastor (IFB church) also does not believe in children's churches or anything like that. His children and all the other children in the church are made to sit in the church and listen to the sermon. How else are they going to learn if they are not taught to sit in church and be quiet?? I love getting to sit with my two children who are still very young (2 and 10 months) and they sit there and listen to the Preacher! They are smarter than we think and they need sermons rather than candy and videos to teach them.
I just wanted to thank you for turning me on to Nourishing Traditions.It is fabulous! Now I want to recommend a book to you. It is called The Liberation Diet by Annette Presley. I know Annette personally and she is such a special God honoring woman. She talks alot about Nourishing Traditions in her book and her meal plans include recipes from it. It really isn't a "diet" book as much as it is a book about the history of food, the horrors of the industrialization of our food and myths and truths about food. The "diet" part is more of lifestyle change. It is a wonderful read and full of interesting information and history. I think you would really really enjoy it. If you would like, I can send you a copy or you can order it online from Amazon.
Candy,
I would love to read your booklet! Sounds interesting! Are your kids involved in any extracurricular activites at all (sports, dance, music, etc.)? Just curious!
Your friend Tricia in Chicago
Hi Candy,
Our church does not have children's church and for that I am grateful. Our church believes that families need to worship and learn together. Yes, sometimes the babies may become loud but mothers can take them to the nursery and sit with them. We have a speaker in the nursery so all of us moms can still hear the sermon. Our pastor always says don't worry about the noise of little ones disturbing anyone because the sounds of little children are a welcome blessing in church.
I do have one question for you though. How do you feel about age segrated sunday school? Our church does have sunday school but so far we have not attended it. The babies go to the adult classes with their parents and then two years and up have their own classes. Would love your opinion on this.
I have been reading your blog for 2 years now and you have challenged my thinking on many issues. Thanks!
Blessings to you,
Anna L.
I used to attend a church where some of the members were really pushy like that. A favorite prase was, "God told me to tell you..." Uh, yeah. :b
I LOVE my current church and it breaks my heart that we might be moving out of state and leaving that congregation...or more accurately...that family.
My church is small and their children's church is very good (real meat and potatoes of the gospel, not watered down kool-aid gospel) and children remaining with their parents is allowed and even encouraged. ANY ministry that's all lights and music and video and even powerpoint turns me off right away.
I started reading Well-Trained Mind and just the first few chapters blew me away! I'm altering a LOT of things concerning my kiddos and their day-to-day learning and play.
yeah a booklet would be great can't wait.
Candy,
I'm in a similiar situation as Kari. My son was diagnosed with PDD-NOS which is on the autism spectrum. He is very sensitive to noise and crowds. Although our church is not a big one (approx. 70-100 people) it can still be very overwhelming for him.
I totally understand your position and how you have scriptures to back up your stance. I'm just truly thankful to God for His grace.
My husband and I go to church every Sunday and leave exhausted because of our son's inability to sit, his hyperactivity, and his extremely loud outburst. So every Sunday we are in and out of service trying to get what we can, chasing him around the church. So people at my church thought my son was spoiled or not disciplined until we gave a presentation about autism. It was sad to see how judgemental my brothers and sisters in Christ were until they realized that we were dealing with some real issues but yet still trying to press our way.
Thank God for yesterday... The nursery school teacher, that I know pretty well asked if she could keep my son with her during church (in the nursery) so that my husband and I could listen to the message. That gesture alone almost made me cry because anyone who knows us can see how difficult it is to watch him while still monitoring our other two children (3yo, and 1yo). This lady was able to read him stories (which my son loves) and color pictures with him. I peeked in a few times during service because of my own anxiety, but she was great. That environment (without the crowds, microphones, the pitch in the pastors voice) allowed him to have his uncontrollable outbursts (without stares) and allowed him to move around the room and jump when he started to have stemming episodes.
I'm happy that your WHOLE family can sit and listen to a sermon and discuss it together. That is a tremondous blessing. I can't wait for the day that my son can SIT, LISTEN, and even TALK with us about a sermon. So please understand that different families have different needs.
Latrece - "So please understand that different families have different needs."
I do understand. However, my article was not at all geared towards families with special needs children, it was geared towards what I know, and I know about having non-special needs children. Each family is different, and has their own hills to climb, so I can't speak for other people, I can just speak for my family.
I can't give you or Kari or anyone else advice on what to do with your children in regards to care and such. I don't know enough to help you there.
However, here on my blog, I posted my personal convictions about how MY family operates, and why we do it the way we do.
As I said in my post, I don't judge those who do use the children's programs and such, but just that I know for my family it isn't right. We must follow our convictions, and this is our conviction.
My best friend has 5 children, and she uses the children's programs, and I see no problem with that.
I would love to read your booklet. Just yesterday in our church we had a few new announcements on powerpoint. One was that children must use the bathroom before service as to not distract others. The other announcement was that all nursery aged children(0-4 years old) should be in the nursery. God has been laying it on my heart recently to not only have my children with me but He has been showing me things that lead me to believe that this might not be the church for us. This is a hard thing for me right now. These people are my only real "family" that I have here and my husband is in Iraq. I would not dream of leaving without his blessing. It is getting harder to attend church there for me. So having scripture to back up my convictions would be a blessing. Thank you so very much for all that you share.
Blessings,
Michelle
Our church recently dropped children's church but we do have nursery for babies and then we have a special room for toddlers/preschool.
Have you kept your toddlers with you or did you drop them in the nursery?
I know of one church that has no nursery either, but ours does.
Excellent post today, Candy. I sent the link to my husband who is a priest. He has tried so hard to get this mentality into church but it is very difficult. We've even tried out a "family" Sunday School but with no success. (we were the only ones that attended!)
We are Anglicans and I wanted to mention that the entire congregation still stands during any reading of the Scripture. I love that and always require my children to stand as well.
Keep up the good work, Candy. Your posts are always a blessing!
I love, love, LOVE Harmony's idea of a different HMB for each day of the week! It might be the answer I've been looking for! We live in a very busy area, and although it has it's benefits, there is also a LOT of pressure to keep the kids busy, busy, busy, with activities and structured "enrichment". I've resisted the frivolous so far (c'mon--French lessons for a 2-year old?), but between the music and dance lessons, and various Homeschool Park days, I was having a difficult time creating a Master Schedule, since each day is so different. I tried making a different MS for each day, but then nothing else fell into place 
But a separate binder for each day might be perfect! I've already made one just for Christmas, and it turned out great. Thanks Harmony, for the idea, and Candy for posting it!
Lisa
Catholics always stand during the Gospel reading. Also children attend with their parents.
While I agree that watching too much TV can be bad for a child, my children do watch a lot of educational videos and shows. My 4 year old is reading on a 1st grade level and is already doing simple math. She was speaking full sentences before she was 2 years old! I attribute this to the videos and shows she watched.
We too keep our children in church (Southern Baptist) with us during services, all of the parents in our church do. However we do let our children go to an age appropriate Sunday School class. Our pastor does what he calls "Children's Church" right before his message to the congregation. He pulls the kids up to the front, sits them down and explains the message on their level and it is wonderful.
Our family does make use of the Junior Church. That said, I respect your opinion to keep your children with you.
I also volunteer in the youth group, and we do use our bibles in our studies. There are events that are scheduled to be social in nature like snow camp etc,...but the week to week gathering is bible centered and if it weren't I wouldn't volunteer.
I, can also relate to Julie in TX also. I have 2 children with ADD (not hyperactivity per se, but very poor attention skills and very fidgety). I too wonder if I have done something wrong in allowing them video games, TV etc,...but you know I cannot undo the past. I hope that anyone that may feel bad about their past just focus on the now and do the best you can from this point on, that's all anyone can do. And remember Philippians 4:8 and dwell on those things.... I have only been saved for 4 years, so there are going to be things that weren't done top notch, but Praise God my children have Christian parents NOW. And thank you ladies for sharing your info with us, and your ideas and for not judging those with different choices.
Ohhh Jenn.... Don't you know that you are going to hell for this?
OKAY, just kidding. LOL Yes, the beauty is that whether or not our kids go to youth programs or not is not what saves us, or doesn't.
My church has a lot of children in their programs who ride the bus to get to our church, and their parents aren't with them. So, of course we need these programs for those children - there are no grownups to sit with them.
However, I also like the right to have ~my~ kids sit with me, and people not freaking out or taking personal offense over it. You know what I mean? This is why I'm going to write up the booklet. This way, I don't have to keep repeating myself, and it's right there in writing, should the well-meaning person want to study it.
Hi Candy, GREAT post. I will be very interested to have you post your booklet. I just ran into this situation at extended family I was visiting. They seem INTENT on getting my TODDLERS to sit in front of the television even when I say NO and the kids are not interested. They do everything they can to get them to watch and I have had about enough. We came back with kids hopped up and out of control because they constantly were shoved in front of a glaring television. I have had enough and I am not going to stand for it anymore.
I also don't get why anyone allows young children away from them for any amount of time. I don't care if it is in church or not. My children are MINE and it is my responsibility to mold and PROTECT them. How many kids have to have their minds bent and be molested in the care of "churches" before parents wake the heck up. If you kids don't behave IT IS YOUR FAULT DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Sorry, I am a bit riled up today
Many Blessings
Ace
In the fall, you told me that my grandmother is in hell for being Catholic and not being saved.
Do you still believe what you said?
I would love a booklet to explain to people why we don't have our kids in the kids programs as well. Since mine are still pretty young, its not much an issue, but I did have some people try to be pushy about having them in the nursery...even though they're all very well behaved in church. We set the standard and they measure up. Simple as that.
Candy,
Just a quick comment-- I made the beef, tomato and rice dish with a sensational sald from your book. We all LOVED it, especially my 6 1/2 year old son who could not get enough of it and even requested the leftovers for lunch today!
Your friend Tricia in Chicago
CatholicMom, I never said that, nor would I. I have no idea who your grandma is.
PS, however, if she wasn't saved, then she is in hell. That's what GOD says.
BTW, CatholicMom - being Catholic never sent anyone to hell. Not being saved it what sends people to hell, whether they are Wiccans, Catholics, or "Christians."
AMEN Sister! We have kept our little ones in church with us and they enjoy it and behave very well, it especially helps because we sit in the very front row! That way we aren't distracted by the others sitting in front of us moving around, stretching etc. You and I think so much alike sometimes I'm amazed!
Thank you for this ministry you provide for us. Blessings to you and your family!
Lisa P
Candy you once told me that my nipples wouldnt fall off if I drank the kombucha three times a day, but now they have and I cant breast feed my baby!!!
Do you still believe what you said?
Oh, I am so glad that you posted this. I worked in the same type of "children's ministry" you mentioned. We left the church since then. When we picked up our older children (we worked with infant/toddlers) they really could not tell us what they had learned...they always had candy or a sugary cereal with m&m's and marshmallows covered in powdered sugar!! I would ask them scripture and they would tell me a song they sang...etc. We left this very church for many many reasons. We were treated as if we had left a cult when we did leave. www.rwoc.org you can make your own opinion. I would love to hear feed back
Candy
So if Catholic Moms grandmother had faith in Jesus, was baptised and her life bore the fruit of her faith in terms of good works, but she was a catholic, was she ( in your opinion) saved?
Do you want to see the e-mail (s) of support that I received from other Meez's that August 19, 2008 Meez gathering? I still have them.
Clare, I haven't the foggiest, and I don't understand what all this obsession over some stranger's grandma is about. If you want to know if someone is saved or not, read the Bible, and see if they matched up with what GOD says.
Don't ask me if someone is saved, look it up for yourself.
CatholicMom, we've been over this MANY times in the past several months.
You chose to misconstrew what I said, and have used it to slander me for several months. I've tried and tried and tried to clear it up with, but you will have none of it.
End of discussion. This happened several months ago. It's time to forget about it and move on.
Consider this lame discussion closed. :-?
Candy - Just a quick question...you mention a children's bus ministry. Who leads this ministry? Would you ever consider being involved, and why or why not?
We attend a small church and our children are the ONLY children. My husband is an associate pastor and would like to reach out to the neighborhood children and present the gospel to them in a way they can understand, on their level. I would also be involved, as we are a small congregation and cannot spare several helpers.
The children's parents will not be attending and they are not used to sitting in church. We would have them in the main service during the congregational singing, but know that they would be disruptive and "bored" during the sermon. Please keep in mind that these children are unchurched and their parents allow them to come just to "get them out of their hair" on a Sunday morning. These children have souls that need reached for Jesus. What are your thoughts on this?
PS - We would bring our children with us to the children's service because we want our children with us during worship. We attend Sunday AM & PM worship and Wednesday PM prayer meetings and our 5, 3, and 16 month old boys sit with us during each service.
Sorry my "quick" question ended up being so involved.
I am not woccan!! Nor do I worship the godess.
Ace, please be loving to those of us with special needs. When my child APPEARS to act out or misbehave, he's dealing with his special needs and it's not my fault. Stopping him is impossible. This is how we can easily determine when it's him being his little age and when it's his special needs. I can't stop those times and it's not my fault. But many people say it is because they assume he's being bad, acting out, or misbehaving. He can't help it. Yes, he has those times when he acts out. All children do. But, he also has more times when he's trying to understand his world and it appears to be acting out.
Amen Sister. I am a new reader to your blog but i love it!!
I went to christian school as a child and we went to church 5 days a week (in addition to sunday) for about an hour a day. we sat quietly, paid attention and church was fun. we were excited to go! we hung on to our pastors every word and i remember going home and practically reciting his sermon word for word to my mother...there was no Youth Programs and Children's Ministries, just having fun at church...to this day i still remember those sermons. When i was lost, before i found God again, i thought of those sermons freqently. I believe it was God urging me to come back.
Keep your kids right there with you and they will love GOd and his word as much as you do.
Church question. What would you do if you could only find either wishy washy churches or the social clubs types? We(hubby and I) seem to be stuck in no church mode. It seems like they all end up being copies of each other with the same basic heart issues. Which is basically "pretend to teach me so I can be fine and not have to worry or feel convicted about anything".
My children were brought up in a church that had a Sunday School program, but during worship service there was no nursery or children's church, so our children were always in church with us. It gave us a chance to train them to learn a little self control plus we all got to worship together. Even little ones can sit and not make a fuss for 45 min to an hour. Our children loved to sit in our laps and sometimes fall asleep during church. It was a loving time for us.
Have you ever thought about attending a family integrated church ? We visited one several years ago when we were church hunting. I loved it. All of the families were homeschooled so we all had a lot in common. We did not join that church because my husband wanted something a little more " denominational " . Now I hear that there are several family integrated churches in our area. They are like you and worship as families instead of going off to seperate classes.
Hi Candy,
Great insight into why you choose to have your children sit with you. I agree that children can learn in "big church."
Reading some of the comments about parents with special needs breaks my heart. I have a younger brother who is severely autistic. The special needs group is one which is very much overlooked by most churches.
Thankfully, my church offers a special needs sunday school class. I am one of the two teachers. The parents are SO thankful that they are able to come to church and know their children are with people who know how to handle them and love them. We also make sure they get solid biblical teaching.
My advice to those who don't have a special needs class is to start one up at your church. It can just be a room where parents switch off watching other people's special needs children. They can also visit Joni & Friends' website. I recently went to a conference of theirs and received a lot of valuable information.
Sorry, I am off my soapbox now. I just hate to see parents and their children turned away from churches who can't "handle" their children.
1 Corinthians 1:27
Wonderful post. My husband and I are currently reading a lot about home churches and the drastic differences between what we call "church" today and how the New Testament defined the church. You know, the body of believers versus a building. We consider ourselves followers of Christ who attend a baptist "church building". We have the kids programs, childrens church, awana and vbs. Our children have been attending since they were 3. They are 6&8 now. We have occassionally kept them in big church to see how they did and we were surprised they even listened. My son even shouted correct answers to questions our pastor posed(even though our pastor didnt like interaction)Until recently, we just went along blindly with whatever our pastor said and didn't really question the way things are done in a typical protestant church. Our pastor left, we are looking for a new one and thought it best to consult Gods Word for direction. What an enlightening experience. We are doing it wrong. As parents, we dont want to create another generation of blind followers of organized religion.
We are taking baby steps to make some personal changes and hope to share more with our church family at the baptist building. What is your take on Home Churches? 2 books I recommend- Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola- gives origins of many of our "church" practices and Revolution by George Barna--talks about home churches. Sorry so long. Blessings
Preach it! This would be the single best post on the subject....!
And "Is it possible that people with these misconceptions unknowingly "train" these unfortunates into their children?" - I would say DEFINATELY!! Children can be taught anything.. and 'today's children' are NOT different from yesterday's.. only the parents are.
If you don't have any expectations of them (i.e. they won't be able to sit still in church) then they won't even have the opportunity to live up to them.. I've seen it in our church, where -sad to say- most children behave in an obnoxious way, disrespectful, loud, etc. Then there's the 'traditional' or Dutch reformed church, where they'll have babies, toddlers and preschoolers all sitting still in service.
If you want to see a REALLY good video on the subject, search for pastor 'Voddie Baucham' - he explains that sunday school originally wasn't even meant for christians, and that it came with a danger that people recognized centuries ago: "if we make sunday school available, eventually christians will join and they will stop teaching their kids about God" - which is just SO true!
Greetings from the netherlands 
I do think there is some big truth in this as well for our own childrens church that recently started up and because of the stuff that is lacking my own two kids are pleading not to go, I would be very much interested in seeing this booklet Candy if you so wish to share it publicly. My own daughter says Childrens Church is boring that they dont do anything (which I believe is because its being lead by teens who they themselves may not be very mature in the Word either)... This is an area I will be in prayer regarding because I dont have to have my kids in there, as much as I do love the place where we worship, my kids Spiritual well being is more important than an hour with kids who are just as immature as they are..
I always kept my infants with me in church and was constantly asked why they weren't in the nursery, which was aggravating. But I just didn't want to put my little baby in a crowded room full of babies to be watched by someone else. I never let them disrupt the service--I would always leave if they got fussy--and I could never understand how a baby in a worship service could be a problem for anyone!
I did try the nursery thing as they became toddlers and preschoolers, and various children's church-type programs--at several different churches, as we moved around--and they are not all created equal. There were a few wonderful programs and many that were way less than wonderful. And on a purely practical note, they were hotbeds for germs--my kids would get sick almost every time they went.
In the end I found the best thing for us was to let the kids attend a children's Sunday School class if a good one was available (taught by a Godly adult and not a bunch of kids just running amok!) and then attend church as a family. You are right, Candy, that small children can LEARN to sit quietly, although some take way longer than others. *G* And I am not referring to kids with special needs--that's a whole other thing, and parents should do what they must. (On that note, however, there are several special needs children at our church who attend services and occasionally they do "make some noise" or whatever, and occasionally the parents take them out--but I can't imagine this bothering people, to have these precious children in a worship service, even if there is an occasional disruption.)
We were one of few families in our church to not attend the Wednesday night children's program but we tried it--I was even a helper for a while--and found it to be chaotic, over-stimulating and a huge mid-week disruption. Oh well. Vacation Bible School in summer, on the other hand, was a program my kids always attended and liked.
Each church and each program is unique, as is each child---in the end, we need to pray and follow God's leading for our own families,and try not to judge each other's decisions.
Get that booklet written and posted quickly!
Cindy
Good post, Candy. My DH used to be a youth/children's minister. Our experience with that, along with personal study and being exposed to some other church "cultures" led us to worshiping as a family. It is very, very difficult to find a church that has solid teaching, but also supports us in *not* putting our 5 children in the children's programs. One resource is the Vision Forum's church directory on the web. It lists "family integrated" churches that generally support families staying together for worship.
One problem we've had in attending churches that provide children's services, but keeping our children with us is that eventually, some children feel they're being punished for some unknown infraction. (by being kept from the "fun" stuff") This is usually a result of some little church friend coming up to them and saying, "Why don't you come to 'Googly God'? It's so FUN!!! You'd LOVE it!!!" I hate seeing the hurt look on my little one's face when that happens. (and it *has* happened) We do teach our children about worship and they generally enjoy church, but it has been very difficult to attend where folks keep coming up and reminding us of their "great children's program." Very discouraging.
My IF Baptist Church is also family-integrated so everyone keeps their kids with them. My kids love it and my 5 yr old has taken to approaching the Pastor after the service with a "Good Preachin'"! For Bible studies the girls are with their mamas and boys are with daddies. My kids LOVE church! I also think it helps the younger ladies in the church to be vigilant of others' needs. We have such sweet teenage girls who will jump up if they see a little needing to go to the restroom during the service or however they are needed. My old-fashioned church is one in a million! My pastor is always careful to point out, though, that there is nothing UNbiblical about childrens' programs--we just don't think it is the best choice.
The only churches i have been to that have these type of children's services are the baptist and church of God churches. I grew up in a Methodist church and have attended a few different ones as an adult-only infants can stay in the nursery during church service. Even then it is only if the mother chooses. The only time children attend a class without the parents is sunday school. These have been very traditional sunday schools following a traditional curriculum of memory verses and bible study. I taught a sunday school class for a year and almost every child brought their own bible-these were kindergarteners. I attended a few Baptist churches here in my area-and almost all of them dismiss children during the services to go to childrens church. It seems to be a invention of thse large Baptist and Church of God churches. A friend who is Chrich of Christ has never seen it in a church she has attended either. The Southern Baptist convention here in Nashville encourage the use of these programs-it supports the lifeway publishing house that creates the curriculums used in these services-it is another money making thing within the baptist church money machine. Take a look at these services-ask them how much it cost them to buy the set ups for these programs-money that could have gone elsewhere.
Well..Candy....looks like the 'hen party' is still up to their old tricks. I think that is all they do - is sit over on the 'ugly' site, drink and type stupidity.
Candy, I don't believe that Clare's first comment was really from Clare. I suspect strongly it was someone posing as her. I just thought you should be aware.
Someone is Posting as Me in these Posts , That IS NOT Me. I have No reason to Post Here , I thought I would Let you know C.
Someone is POSTING using My Name. Agenda from my words , BUT IS NOT ME. I have My Own Authentic HALOSCAN Profile. My Gravatar would have shown up as well.
Be Wary of People Posing as others.
I just wanted to add that my husband and I did keep our children with us in "big church" when they were infants and toddlers. We tried our best to keep them entertained during service during curious/investigative stage with no luck. We were missing out on the message by having to keep them occupied. We were at no point "forced" or "suggested" to put our children into nursery or children's church but were kindly made aware that the service was available and where the rooms were located should we decide to use them. Every church we have attended over the years encouraged children to be in service with their parents.
Our children's and youth's classes at our current church are ran by good Christian adults with teens helping the adults. Our church does not allow a teen to be alone with any child at any moment. It seems that a lot of our parents use the service but don't like serving on it. We have adults with no children at all serving and some are even grandparents. I do help out with the nursery and toddler rooms when needed. I don't help in children's church because I want my children to become a bit more independent from me...they tend to become clingy and "helpless" when around me in social situations. I have spied on them before and they do great without me around. Not sure why they change their outlook when I am around. I love them dearly, don't get me wrong.
I also found that Wed night studies are very chaotic so we quit attending that night's activities. I just find it difficult to understand why some parents just sit there and watch their child run through the halls or play football of sorts in the church. I was taught to be still and respect the House of God..you know use my manners. I have told my children that I don't care whose kid is running around or enticing them to play that this is God's house and they will respect it even more than our house..and they have I am proud to say. Now, if we can just get the other 100s of children at my church to grasp that concept....or better yet get the parents to stand firm and get control. Mind you, these are not special needs children..I understand completely about their reactions to stimulation and such. To my understanding, we currently do not have any special needs children attending our church but there are two infants who just joined who will be...they are "crack babies". I hate that term but their teen moms used drugs and now those sweet blessings are going through major withdrawal symptoms. I pray daily for the foster family who opened their home to these babies (2 weeks and 2 months old).
Okay, I will be quiet now. Sorry for the long post but felt the need to add on.
Julie in TX
I agree with you 100%. I am so sick of watching children end up in rebellion because they sent their children off to nurseries, Sunday schools and youth groups with caregivers who really didn't "care" about the spiritual growth of their children. A church is not meant to be a reflection of the humanistic worldview on psychologically stimulating children until they can no longer think for them selves!
Putting unnecessary frill and thrill into churches really shows the low level of spirituality the parents actually possess.
Personally I recently went to a church that did not have ANY musical instruments. All the church members ONLY sang aCapella. I was very surprised to see my son who is 1.5 sit still for more than 10 minutes! At the current church we attend, there are blaring musical instruments (electric guitar, drums etc.) it is very disturbing for me to see my 1.5 year old want to leave the service and run around so frequently.
I hope and pray that my husband will see the light......that the musical instruments really do more damage to God's word and Godly people than uplift people's spirits in the Lord.
A perfect church is this......
Men and women seated separately (yes that is necessary to eliminate the possibility for lust to arise between unmarried couples and also for singing accapella). No musical instruments in the church to eliminate the desire to show forth fleshly talents. Option for learning instruments left at home. At the minimum of 4 chapters of scripture read during sermons. Conservative interpretation only! All women dressed modestly (long dresses sleeves) and at least have long hair (head covering optional and can be varied) NO Sunday school or youth groups or Nursery attendant! All members in the church home school their children. All members in the church baptized past the age of rebellion (after teenage or when desire to know God's word is evident in teenagers life) All members in the church eliminate or reduce the number of doctor's visits for their children and prenatal / OB care. (This is because lust arises with Christian mothers and unsaved doctors.....very dangerous!) Home visitations are frequent between members......and NO alcoholic beverages or a gathering around a TV to watch a football game OR movie.
OK I know I sound strict at this perfect Church....but really, we have lost the environment to grow spiritually in our churches and that is very damaging.
Oh and by the way....the church that had no musical instruments were also able to keep a down syndrome boy who was 1.5 years old seated for the entire sermon!
Amazing how dangerous distraction and psychological stimulation can be and how necessary it is to eliminate it!
Hi Candy, I see your nutties have time on their hands. Goodness ! Get a LIFE!
Anyhoo, Kari, I am not sure why you are commenting to me. I was making a general comment. I don't have a special needs child and I think that if I did I would STILL have that child involved as much as possible and would make appropriate provisions if I needed to leave for awhile or whatever if they got out of hand.
I don't judge others for this special task they have and would never trash them. It is also USUALLY very obvious when someone has a special needs child and that their behavior is part of their different makeup. It is the parent's responsiblity to make sure they are not disruptive to everyone and it is the Church's responsiblitiy to INCLUDE the child as much as possible. If I had a child that was special needs and it was not obvious I would TELL everyone so they could be understanding.
But, I wasn't talking about you nor your special case and I have respect and compassion for those that are in this situation. This is usually NOT the problem in Church, the problem is one of two things. One, no one wants to take the time and effort to train their children and two, no one wants to deal with children. IF we love children and are busy about trianing them, we have to deal with the noise...not cart them off somewhere. GOD NEVER DID! Candy is right, they stood as a FAMILY! God never talked down to them nor did a special presentation.
If you never teach your children how to act and never put them in the situation so you can assess and correct their behavior, they will NEVER act right.
Many Blessings
Ace
I hope and pray that my husband will see the light......that the musical instruments really do more damage to God's word and Godly people than uplift people's spirits in the Lord.
1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
Candy, just this once I have to throw in a comment that is not positive. I too believe that the BEST place for a child to be is with their parents in the regular church services BUT....there are children that are just not hardwired to sit still for that long. No amount of training, discipline, or nutritional intervention is going to change that child and some church services are LONG. In this case the child is only going to distract others from hearing the gospel/word preached. It would be a shame if a visitor came to church and could not focus because of a figiting child and left that day with out getting what they needed. I would be greatly saddened if my child caused someone to miss their chance to know Jesus.
So you see I feel there is a time and place when children's church is needed. Beyond that however I am not the biggest fan of youth programs. I feel like they are usually focused on fun and not on the Lord.
I hope you do not mind me sharing my opposing view point just this once
In one church we were blessed to be a part of, the pastor had the vision to keep the little ones in mind, as he prayerfully put together his sermons. He preached 25-30 minutes every week, but it was the meatiest, best preaching we've ever heard.
A lot of GREAT points!!
As a youth and children's minister, I have to poke my nose in here. (I was linked to this page by a friend of mine.) I just want to say something in defense of my fellow ministers:
Not all of us desire our youth and children's ministry to be places for purely social interaction.
In fact, I'd rather the youth and children's ministries in our church be the opposite of that. I can't speak for my fellow ministers as far as practice, but I do know many of us who seek to make the Word of God the center of everything that is done. Every event we have, I check it with the following question: does it bring honor and glory to God, and does it point to the Word? If not, we don't do it. I'd rather not have a bunch of teenagers graduating from our youth ministry having just had a "fun" time at church. As you said, it's waaaaaaayyyy more than that.
But to lump us all together is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I've never used "flashing lights" to entertain the youth and children, and nothing we do is geared at "entertainment" in the first place. If they come and have a great time, then that's awesome, but my aim is to teach them what God's Word says, what to do with it, and how to become Christ-followers who change the world.
If you're at a church where the youth and children's pastor isn't doing that.....then why haven't you talked to them yet?
Marty, that's great and all, but even if you run the best children's program there is, that doesn't change the fact that it's a children's program, therefore segregating into age groups, and removing the children from their parents.
My church may very well have the best kids programs, for all I know, but the better option than even that, is to have my children with ME, as we worship the Lord and seek Him together.
"Ohhh Jenn.... Don't you know that you are going to hell for this? OKAY, just kidding. LOL "
Wow, I have to admit I was shocked for a split second, and yes I heartily agree it's a good thing Jesus alone saves us or none of us would get in!!!
I don't blame you for feeling weary from defending yourself over and over...no one should bug you about it.
May God bless you, Marty. We were a youth minister (associate pastor...etc, etc) family for years. It is a tough job, for sure. For us, leaving youth ministry was partly because DH was struggling to be the dad he needed to be, while being gone nearly every night of the week doing all the things the youth parents expected. The biggest part of leaving youth ministry, though, was the realization that parents were not doing their job of discipling their children, as long as DH was providing some Bible teaching. The problem is, the Bible instructs *Fathers* [parents] to do the discipling of children. An hour or two of Bible study a week is not *discipling*. DH desired to help the *parents* lead their children--but the parents weren't the least bit interested in doing that, they said, "That's what we pay *you* for!" This was very discouraging.
As for children of non-believers...by far the most effective way of discipling them was by taking them into *the family* not by taking them to Wed. night Youth service. We have experience with this. You can look up the Barna stats regarding amount of money spent on youth ministry vs the number of youth who reject the church once they leave home.
Marty, I pray the Lord blesses you and guides you with His right hand.
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