169 registered offenders in Kalispell.
When I first heard this story it just struck me as off, what are the odds that you leave your kid in the car (in private driveway) for just a minute and that's the one time a SO happens to be there and take your kid, I don't know.
I have a three year old. It wouldn't be unusual for him to get into the car by himself, with me in the house, especially at our cottage. That said....I don't like the backstory on this disappearance. At ALL.
I think the kid just wandered off, sounds like the real problem was the search. I think dad gave an honest description, typical overloaded single parent, and probably just took longer than realized/stated.
I grew up in that area and at this time of the year, with the weather as unpredictable as it can be and with as many wide open spaces as there are in the Evergreen area--I think it's quite possible the kid wandered off, got lost, and died of exposure. I know growing up there, my brother and I often wandered off attracted by an animal or the voices of other kids playing nearby.
Of course, it's all conjecture until they report how he died. I just hope this is a tragic accident and not something more. Many sex offenders/former criminals do relocate to that area because people stay out of other people's business for the most part and people aren't quick to ask for history.
I wouldn't be feeling well either. Very sad. RIP.
Well they did have neighbors threatening volunteers for searching their property, reportedly. He probably found a little spot and just fell asleep.
sorry, that's really sad, we'll know by the press conference.
I hesitate to think he would wander away in the dark.
yah, that's curious, but he could get lost more quickly too.
I feel the same way. When i heard the news, i had a strange and peculiar feeling that truth was far from true when the father stated his son missing from the auto. I wont get into further details. but will say , i believe it was very someone very close to the boy as in family i beleive that the police should be looking at.
I'll be interested in hearing what the friend who owned the house, has to say.
Interesting......MSNBC says the boy and his father were at his GRANDparents home, and the father went back in, to get his sister. (My kids are watching Buzz Lightyear here at the cottage, so I can't watch the news conference.)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16841344/
how could this little boy drown in a septic tank - I really don't know think I have seen property with a septic tank on it so please explain - thanx
also, wouldn't septic tank at a child-care be pretty well covered??it seems odd, except for slight possibility he had been curious about that tank while being watched there, and then found his opportunity when it was time to leave. you want to give the parents the benefit of the doubt, it's so tragic, and I still think that dad's answers were frank and mom's reactions normal. Something more too it tho, really wondering about this house.
i don't get how you just fall in tank in the dark, unless top is already open
and then how could they miss that in a search, i did hear about they had checked a 6 foot deep pond and found nothing, maybe that's the same thing they are talking about.
because i was thinking, hmm...check again, ponds are really murky.
I'm not certain of exactly what was on our property as a kid---whether it was a septic tank or access to our well, but I recall these block-like things with handles on them that we could lift up and look down into. I, as the youngest, couldn't lift it, but one of my older sibs could. Suppose they had been playing in an area like that earlier in the day, and left the cover to something like that off...and the young one did wander over in the dark. I don't know. Speculative. But I can see it.
I am not sure how we survived on the farm back when I was a kid. We did all sorts of dangerous stuff, and no one was wise to our "happenings".
I do recall once being out in the field, and playing with my middle sister. I guess I was ten and she was twelve, and we saw a guy sitting in a tree watching us across the fence line. I think he was about 50 feet away when we saw him. We ran all the way back up to the house. Scary. I recall it all these years later with aww. And those were much simpler times.
okay well now fox is reporting he was sealed in septic tank (top covered) but i don't trust fox anymore, sorry suckers
Rodgers is,at best here,guilty of neglect.If he did not actually kill the boy.
okay - didn't see any time frame with this article but it said searchers looked in the septic tank and didn't see anything - day/nite ?? then investigators said a manhole sized lid was on the tank - they drained it and found him - but they didn't think he could climb in and pull the cover back over the tank - so was it open when the searchers first looked and they poss. put the lid on thus the investigators finding it covered ???
The report I heard was that the septic tank was covered which at least to me is different then sealed.
He could have been placed there then covered or someone could have noticed it uncovered and just tried to prevent an accident by covering it.
ok all this is not making alot of sense. in that short of time span of leaving him in the auto. As far as im aware almost all kids love to go out for rides when the family goes somewhere. The time span given , would mean this child immediatly got out of the auto when the father went inside and took off. that in no way would make sense to me. thus i feel the father is trying to cover up 1 of 2 things. 1. he is covering up the ammount of time the child was left in the auto or 2. he is covering up his murder and the time left inside the auto . in which case, the father has alot more to do with this that he is revealing. i am set on foul play, and i am set his father is lying either way. the question is which one is he lying about. i say the father is a prime suspect in this case. and a child on normal terms would not immediately leave a auto just to wonder off if he knew he was going for a ride. that is my last say on that and that is what i truly believe. no matter what news report comes out.
I just watched the video of the pressor...
Sheriff said Friday evening law inforcement did a search of "the" residence and found the boy in the septic tank. Sounds like the residence means the place the boy went missing.
He also said the United States Immigration, United States Secret Service and the FBI among others was involved in the case.
hmmmm??? Why all these agencies?????
especially the Secret Service?
ha ha, i thought i heard border control. i'm so mixed up i don't even know what state it's in, montana right? okay well like i said, fox jumped the gun again, because they actually stated he was placed in tank and it was sealed behind him (probably prefaced with investigators believe) can't remember exactly. They had a lot of confusion at the scene, too many searchers plus kids messing up tracks,etc. I think their could easily be some confusion with the reporting, and someone could have put the lid back on as well.
Lots of comments here. Might be a plain old accident. It is easy because I lived in country[Indiana]and our septic tank was open. Thing is our Father built a fence around it.But that was way back in dark ages when parents took care of their kids!
I can never get my kids in the car when it's time to go home, I gotta say accidental, but I'll shut up now too.
Loic's mom says that she wants more answers.
"'I want to know that my other two children are safe in that man's care. He was supposed to be looking after him, he was supposed to be safe there, and he wasn't.'"
"Ariel says that she wants to see her other two children, and wants to know when the crime lab results will first be made available to her."
I'd say she has some suspitions also.
eta...sus·pi·cion
can't spell worth crap.
btw that came from
http://www.montanasnewsstation.c...y.asp?
S=5999300
I think the most suspicious thing the father said is that he looked around for 20 minutes before calling the police. It seems like he made a point of saying that, which would have left him time to commit a murder, and try to cover his tracks. I don't think a 3 year old would walk over to a septic tank in the dark and cold to look around, just my opinion. And then, like you say, Steve, the lid being off or on would be a big issue. There are a lot of questions here.
here's the link with the video of the 'sheriff's statement to the press.'
It is very strange that some of the agencies he mentioned are involved.
http://www.king5.com/topstories/
...L.256472f5.html
How many men have killed their own children during or after custody battles to hurt their ex spouses/girlfriends/partners? Think about it. Call me a suspicious bitch, but I think "Dad" killed him.
wow, richandfamous, thanx i missed all that today. i'd say they took it pretty serious, maybe all those offices shared info w/each other and whatnot.
I'm just going to say I think Shawn's case has had a major impact on everybody.
and I HAVE to say, Naturalangel, 20 min. is just about how long it takes before you totally panic, 15 min. for me but then I'm a girl.
Facts of the case from local news reports and my personal comments.
Mark Rogers walked his son out to the car telling him to get in, then returned in the house for his daughter.
Loic was found in a septic tank that had the cover on. This tank had been searched on the first day and nothing was seen due to the design of these tanks, they are deep and the size of a small room. While the opening is small and on one side the fact is that they are large and often filled deep with human waste, thus very thick, smelly and murky to say the least. So locating a body any body let alone a small child would be tough at best.
According to the Mother’s family Mark Roger took part in a Lie Detector test on late Friday afternoon and with in an hours time of the conclusion of that test the authorities showed up again right to the septic tank. The family was not told the results of the test and was on TV very upset about it.
Maple Drive in Evergreen is a small lane by most standards and less then ˝ mile long. Most of the homes there are Mobile/fabricated homes. I used to drive the road daily on my way to work and know it well. There are many open fields and last I was there several new homes were being put in.
The septic tanks I have seen in that area have a cover (blue or green) made of a durable plastic and most have a locking device (or a place for one) this I would guess is designed that way to meet state/county codes.
Knowing and being from Montana and having lived about ˝ mile from the area I do have many questions concerning the entire situation and common sense.
First of all if you have two kids, one being only 3 years old and the other older. Why would you take the youngest out in the dark of evening, with its cold, his size and simply walk him to your van and tell him to get inside? Wouldn’t it make more sense to take both kids out together? Or at ask the oldest to go outside and get in the van so you could go. The at the very least take out the 3 year old, open the door and strap him in the car seat (which would still not even come close to common sense). But who would do it in the manner Mark stated, it makes zero sense period.
I am fine with the authorities not locating the body immediately considering the design of the tank, and as sad as it is the fact remains that had they drained the tank immediately, the end result would have been the same.
I am a parent, having raised two kids. I have serious doubt that Loic would venture of to the tank in the dark of night with the cold and snow. I understand it was very close to the parking area and admit it possible, however to open the tank, crawl or fall in and have the lid close over seems to be far fetched. After all Mark stated that he was only away for a moment, which by definition can be up to 3 minutes. Most parents would not let their child alone that long, standing near a road where danger from traffic is clear.
I wonder why Mark took Loic out first, several things come to mind however the main reason I find is that possibly the child was being bad tempered and may have been escorted out, conjecture on my part. I also know that several parts of Evergreen like all to many parts of Montana have a drug problem, mainly meth, could this be involved somehow, or the mental state it places someone in?
Within hours of the initial report to police the sexual offenders living in the immediate area had been checked. Kalispell and Montana have a very aggressive system to track sexual and violent offenders and it can be accessed online though the Police and sheriffs website, by name, address and offense. The traffic on Maple Drive is very light overall and even more so at night. It is in an area that takes you past homes, horses and fields. Not much out that way and the closest Business (for that time) would be a fast food place and quick stop store about ˝ mile away and on a major highway. Point being it would be very unlikely that anyone would even have seen the boy as they were driving by in the dark.
In the coming days the facts will come or leak out of the investigation as they have a way of doing in a small knit town as Kalispell, with so many people talking about it, fueled by the need to understand this tragedy that has befell upon an innocent Loic Rogers.
You are right, Ty P, it is a tragedy that Loic Rogers is gone. My condolences to the family. You gave a very complete explanation of the area and your conjecture, much appreciated.
weberly: just wanted to say that in really thinking about it, if I came outside after leaving my 3 yr. old son standing by the car for only 2 minutes, I would spend maybe 5 minutes frantically calling his name and checking the yard while yelling inside for someone to call 911. How far could a 3 year old travel in 2 minutes time? So I still feel the 20 minute time frame the father stated is fabricated. JMHO
My 3 year old wouldn't haven't been outside alone. Never ever.
Even if the father did it, if he keeps his head and doesn't say anything, he'll probably be able to get away with it.
apparently the tank is less than 10 feet from where the child was, follow the link to The Missing and Murdered Children down to the bottom-right of Steve's blog, under True Crime Blogroll, seems to be a concise report, plus some of the other news stories. And they did search it previously.
sorry, i just got back from reading the old blog posts around here
I just hope it wasn't at the grandparents' house, truly hate when that happens.
I would hope that the authorities removed the cover to have it checked for prints, smudges and any other tell tale signs it may contain. Just another note, Loic's autopsy (which was conducted here in Missoula) did show that he drowned of course, but I have a feeling there may be more details concerning it before to long. Things like possible bruises or signs not normally linked with drowning. Also for the record Kalispell and Flathead County has a very high solve rate in murder cases and I am sure if this was anything more then an accident, the perp will be brought to justice.
The problem with fingerprint evidence in this case is that, even in the unlikely event that it exists, it could be explained away, since it is the guy's own septic tank. Prosecutors would have to prove that fingerprints were from the relevant time period.
If the body is bruised, that would suggest that the child was murdered, but it would not suggest that any particular individual was the responsible party. In any case, the child might easily have been murdered without any external signs of injury.
There is no "weapon" besides the septic tank itself.
So unless there is a confession or a reliable witness, I don't see how this case can be proven, if it was really murder and not just an accident.
Of course, murder convictions in cases that aren't particularly "proven" are hardly unknown.
i'll bet you a dollar they already know it's an accident.
the info in this case is just flowing around in a complete circle.
any ideas how the lid could have got back on (there's a picture over at websleuths)
i found a great article here:
http://www.missoulian.com/articl.../top/
news01.txt
but you can go directly to any local news source here:
http://www.abyznewslinks.com/unitemt.htm
looks like it could get ugly, night.
if anyone wants to know there's breaking news below on Devlin
I'm curious as to any fingerprints on the cover/lid. If there are no fingerprints thats definitely suspicious and makes one think its been wiped clean without thinking the scenario/story thru. If the lid was closed someone had to open/close it.
I don't like the way this is going - it feels all wrong...
I swear on the bible I'll stop hijacking the board for tonight, but just want to say Fox could do us all a favor by switching their day-time with their night-time news shows, I might just be old tho. Velocity posted the BEST S.O. registry at:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/cac/states.htm
I read that as they searched for Loic, "the septic tank was checked and they didn't see anything in there". Later, they checked it again, removing the lid, and found Loic.
Is it not possible that the lid was off, for whatever reason, the child fell in (or however he got in), the "searcher" replaced the lid?
Having taken part in searches for missing children myself, I have found some people set right what they find wrong out there, after looking at something, then moving on.
..... I agree this is all pretty strange and it doesn't look good but thought I would throw that scenario out there.
this is the scenario i see,but still wondering what state lid was in immediately before authorities called, in search by dad and family. tank appears to be in a conspicuous location, although probably in back or side of house. a panicking parent can cover alot of ground quickly and chaos sets in immediately, as in 2 people calling 911 at the same time, running into a burning building to rescue people who already ran out,etc. it seems the media can't even nail down where it happened but plenty of good folks who do know what they're doing. I'd be talking to the female "friend" who takes care of children, and take into account other children at the scene and during the search. The tank may have initially been searched by dad or anyone else there at the beginning, and people searched all night I gather, the scene having to eventually be taken over by FBI.
I would like to make some clarification about some of the "missing" details....
First of all, the lid was a light-weight plastic weighing in at about 2 lbs. Easy enough for a 3 year old to lift alone.
Also, it is fact that the septic lid was run over by a truck at one point and the 4 bolts that should've secured the lid were broken... The cover was insecure anyway.
As far as location I know this residence well and it was only located a few feet from the driveway. Plenty close enough for a curious boy to wander to.
Also, I would like to clarify that there were 2 other children in the house, not just the sister.
As far as any other details I do not feel I should have to say anything else.
The parents are innocent, this was a tragic accicdent.
The mother is trying to mourn and merely grasping at anything she can. She wants resolution and therefore, is pointing fingers at anyone she can, most easily the father, as he was the one responsible for the kids.
Don't try to tell me you have never taken your eyes off your children for for 30 seconds. I would have to call you a full out liar.
This is a small town, it's citizens are unaccustomed to violence and crime. It's not unlike them to simply take the peace and security of the area for granted.
Even if the lid was broken and easy to lift, how did Loic put it back? This case is making me feel physically ill - what a terrible way to die, what a sweet little boy, his mum is heavily pregnant etc. It really is terrible.
A Poster claiming to be the Maternal Grandfather posted here:
http://www.topix.net/forum/city/
...IEGI7L48GPKJVBH
"He" made several posts. 3rd, 4th, 5th and 18th posts.
Pretty interesting if the posts are legit.
I somehow completely missed Ty's comment above, otherwise I probably would't have been babbling so much, but I had thought maybe the dad had to carry in a sleeping child, who knows, I don't see that being such a major point.
other than small details that may help solve a crime can also open you up to more blame, parents are their own worse critics.
It has been said there is a possibility with the broken lid that it had given way just enough and plastic being as it is, popped back into place.
I truly understand what Ariel's family is going through but Mark did not do this as he is being accused.
I do know both sides of this family and cannot point fingers at either one. Both are very good people.
See, now everyone knows I'm a bad mommy that used to put sleeping kids in the car sometimes without a seatbelt. But I'm no longer in a custody battle, my children have survived by some minor miracle, and as long as CPS never gets a peek at the deplorable state of my house, I'll be alright.
I would like to correct something written above. Yes, Ariel is suffering stress due to this tragedy but she has been admitted with premature labor before any of this....
Broken lids do not, as a rule, magically pop back into place. It the lid was broken and ajar, it would have smelled very bad like Steve mentions on the front page, and children generally do not closely investigate things that smell like that. Loic was most probably smothered, and then dumped into the tank, and IMHO the surviving children should be removed from the father's custody ASAP.
They've already done the autopsy which would've determined that and are looking closely at the lid. I think the condition of the lid may have more to tell about how it could have happened, and a 3 year old is so tiny. Weighted down with his awkward winter gear, I wonder if he just slipped in. Very tragic all around.
In fact I recently saw a baby rescued from a similar looking hole across the world somewhere, and it seems to happen alot, I've often wondered if they're all just left wide open, or what?
I've been in a plight similar to this woman prior to the loss of her child, and you can imagine the fear and helplessness of being temporarily deprived of custody, not knowing if they are alright with new caregiver, ambivalence with the break-up of the family, and just physically unable to do anything for them, except call anyone who might be able to help. And this father has just had everyone's worse nightmare happen, to somehow bear responsibility in the inadvertant death of a child. IMHO
If the lid was light, on a hinge and unlocked, it could have been lifted by a small child and then just closed by itself.
Quite often horrible accidents happen because three or four minor things go wrong at the same time. That could be what happened here.
If it was accidental, I feel sorry not only for the father who left his son unattended for a short time but also for the person who never bothered to fix the broken lid. I also feel like slapping them. This is why it is important not to let hazardous situations persist.
I will say again. Anyone making accusations toward either parent are wrong. I have said pretty much all I can say at this point, so as not to expose any part of the investigation. I will just say there are things here you people are overlooking, from before this accident.
Mark and Ariel are both innocent. This coming from someone that really knows the family. Keep your judgments to yourself. Do you not think that a parent is their own worst critic?
Your kidding me right? the only person that will know if they are guilty or inncoent is Mrk. and well unless you are him, i suggest you stop talking about you "know for sure" because no matter how close you are to the family, you dont know for sure.
Steve need some info above. can you email me. thank you
You suggest, Velocity?
Then you are guilty for exactly what you say...
"The only person that will know if they are guilty or innocent is Mark"
So perhaps you should take your own advice.
I will speak my mind no matter what others think, the same as you. Last I knew I hold the same right to freedom of speech and am entitled (same as you, opinion or not) to speak of what I know of this family.
After being in the plumbing and electrical business for a number of years, I thought I could shed some light on the mystery manhole cover.
The Septic system in question is manufactured by Orenco Systems. Heres a link to the riser lid. http://
www.wastewatertechnologie...tank_risers.htm
These lids are actually made of fiberglass and are Extremely lightweight
but can take much more exposure to the elements than plastic. They are equipped with either two or four bolts. In this case probably four. In my experience 9 times out of ten the homeowner DOES NOT replace the bolts after they check their system.
Any plumber or city utility worker can
attest how easy it is, by stepping on one side or the other of an improperly placed lid will cause the lid to flip up, and in the soup you go. It is VERY easy for a full grown person to break a leg this way, more less a 35-40 pound toddler to actually fall in.
Just look at how many children fall into 5 gallon buckets and drown each year. Hope this info helps and if you have a septic sytem like this, for gods sake, make sure it is SECURED!
Thank you Boz for the wonderful information.
I will refresh that the 4 bolts had been missing for some time.
And the cover had somehow been run into, previously, by a truck.
My main problem with the dad is this. Many of us were searching for his son all night long the night Loic was reported missing. Not even eight hours after Loic was reported missing he was asleep in the house. I am an eyewitness to this. How can you sleep? Wondering what sewinggn1 thinks about that? Hoping he didn't do it, but thought I would share my concern.
Statement from Loic Rogers father, Mark Rogers montanasnewsstation.com
Jan 28, 2007 08:18 PM MST
The following is an e-mail that we received on Saturday. It concerns that family reaction to the discovery of Loic Rogers body in Evergreen on Friday evening.
On Saturday we brought you reaction from Loic's mother. Below is the statement issued on behalf of Loic's father.
"The following is a press release in response to the media/communities concern for Mark and his family in this most difficult time."
"Our hearts ache with the loss of our beloved boy Loic Rogers. We are still reeling from the shock of his disappearance, and the realization that despite best efforts and intentions, a child's life can be taken from us in minutes. Our despair is that feeling every family knows when a child is out of sight for a minute. Unlike the vast majority of the times when a child returns, now we must deal without Loic's return. It is so difficult to comprehend that Loic is gone."
"My brother Mark is devastated and is not yet able to communicate with the public. Mark's children are the center of his life; his reason for being. He is not one who says he loves his children and yet rarely sees them. Mark is there for his children night and day, caring for their needs."
"I believe that faith, hope, and love will help us move on without Loic. The outpouring of hope and love from the community and rescue workers during our time of need gives us strength. We appreciate every person who looked for Loic, brought food, held our hands, or had Loic in their prayers. You are heroes to us and we are forever grateful."
Sara Rogers Kavanagh, on behalf of Mark Rogers and his extended family
newsmt59901
I am afraid I cannot speak for Mark's actions, simply what I know to be his character. He is a devoted father and Loic adored him...
Everyone grieves differently:
Crying uncontrollably, state of shock where they are unable to speak, sleeping from shear exhaustion and hoping to wake as if it's all a dream? I really don't know why he did what he did.
Can you imagine the number of times he was questioned and had to relive the event? Hindsight and what if'ing...
The mere thought would exhaust most people.
~Newsmt,
Are you saying you withnessed Mark, the Father of Loic Rogers, napping eight hours into his disapearance?
Can you please clarify that remark for me?
Thanks.
Sewing,
I have been a more of a lurker, than a poster here for a long time. But I feel it is appropriate to point out to you anyway that this is a place where well meaning people, interested in the pursuit of Justice gather to discuss the things that matter to them. The safety and love of our Children being top on the list of thimgs that matter most.
Everyone here has different opinions, and this is the place where they come to express them. Perhaps if you are so close to this family, you should be by their side aiding them in this time of Grief and Horror. That would be a much better direction for the Pain I am sure you are feeling right now, if you are indeed mourning the loss of such a precious child. It is an Unspeakable ending, for one sweet Angel just beginning to shine his Light to the world. My condolences to you.
Steve Huff is kind enough to provide us all a venue with which to explore and shed light on the Evil People, and Evil Deeds that run rampant through our lives these days.That is the aim and direction of pretty much every conversation that takes place here.
We all pay homage in our own ways, to the Missing, the Lost, and the Forgotten. Being able to discuss these Nightmares and trying to understand them, is sometimes the only thing one person can do to make sense of the senseless things that happen. It makes us feel less helpless.
Just try and Respect that, please.
Quiet Blessings to You and your Family.
Suppose it's possible the father was not napping, but sedated? Even if this was an accident, he could very well be overcome that it was his fault for leaving his child for just a minute.
An observation: I know it's difficult for people who live in more metropolitan areas to imagine a septic system set up, let alone how a home would have something like this right out there in the open. Fact is, septic systems are very common in more rural areas where city sewer hookups are not available. Somebody has to pay for that sewer line and the cost is usually split between the residents in that area, often prohibitive to the average family. My point is that it's no reflection on the people involved that they had a septic system instead of a city sewer line.
As to a lid slipping back into place, that's quite doable. If you have a 60 gallon trash can with a hinged plastic lid, try dropping a 30 lb weight on it. They can spring back quite easily; I've had to pull a cat out of one once that I watched jump on one and believe me it can be done. It's quite possible that the child stood or even jumped on the lid; it slipped and popped back into place more or less. Typical winter gear could very well cause someone to sink very quickly. Thus, a lapse in judgment and the unthinkable happens. That's why they call them accidents. Tragic, tragic accidents.
EPS I'm not here to pay homage or empower myself, interested in seeking truth and helping others, would you turn away a potential source of local knowledge. I would hope the man could sleep, and have confidence in the countless kind people like yourself willing to help. You know, people have even been known to have sex after funerals, but there's usually only one other person that has to know about it.
i mean the helpful people like newsmt
I mean, from where I'm sitting you've got a poss. searcher having an exchange with a poss. friend or neighbor. Either one is just as likely or not to shed some light, so why wouldn't you want to sit back and let them hash it out. (i know what kind of things i prefer not to hear, and why, but you say it's a place to express opinion)
Alyn, I was thinking it would be easy enough for someone in the country to experiment on a similar lid, but I guess you'd have to wreck it. I'd imagine there are plenty people checking their's and I'm sure law is doing all kinds of stuff with lid. There I go again, using Steve's blog like a message board.
Look here:
http://muextension.missouri.edu/...qual/
eq0401.htm
Thsi assumes the house in Missiour was built to code. Frankly you could not easily get a septic tank without the following specifications. It states:
"A 20-inch or larger square or round manhole should be installed in the cover of the tank over each compartment to provide access for agitation and cleaning. Extending the manhole riser to the top of the ground surface will simplify cleaning operations. Manhole openings should be covered with tight lids of heavy metal or concrete for safety purposes."
Imagine a 3 year old opening a concret or steel manhole. Not possible.
I think this guy got burned. He hid the body in the septic thinking no one would ever look there. Then they did. He wanted - I think - to be the grieving father and have the attention of a missing persons case. In his stress of the divorce battle it would be refresing for him to apprear as a victim.
Mark my words, they will be arresting him in a few days.
Weberly,
Err, you lost me on the 'sex after funerals reference', as for the rest of it.. I was merely offering my perspective on why so many people, offer so many different opinions here. While trying to soften any feelings of hostility, She/He might be feeling about the points of view expressed by the posters.
Hope that clears things up.
i assure you I am not offended in any way... i have said much nicer things than many of you others. And will continue to do so, just as I know the rest of you will.
As far as not being by their side it is not possible at this time. I have 3 small children of my own and a military husband... Getting up to MT is easier said than done.
Thanks Alyn for the comment above. I too, have seen similarity and said at one point this was a possibility.
SewingQn1:
Thanks for taking the time to give some insight into this case and this family - as well as providing some balance.
this is very sad i have 4 children there about a year apart so i could see the dad telling his son to get in the van while he runs into the house nothing unusal about that at all in my opionion this is just a sad accident.
Sheriff Meehan reported there was no trauma beforehand.
Thought you may all want to know.
montananewsstation.com
videos
Interesting snippet in the Missoulian about paperwork Ariel and her family filed with the County as early as November of last year.
"But neither do they think it wasn't an accident, Meehan said. “We're exploring all possibilities, with a very open mind.”
That was not, however, what Ron Weprek wanted to hear. He is Ariel's father, Loic's grandpa, and he came to Meehan Saturday with a letter Ariel had written to county officials back on Nov. 8.
In that letter, she complained that her estranged husband was frequenting the east Kalispell home where Loic eventually died, a place she said was “unsafe.” The residence was reportedly used as a day care during the week, and Ariel complained the environment was unfit for her children.
A septic hole in the front yard with an easily removable lid is a perfect example of what his daughter feared, Weprek said.
Now he worries for his other grandchildren, and insists they should be with his daughter, not his soon-to-be former son-in-law.
Weprek also questioned Mark Rogers' version of Loic's disappearance, saying other children there that night said Loic was outside alone far longer than has been reported."
http://www.missoulian.com/articl.../top/
news01.txt
It certainly appears that Loic's mother was afraid for his safety in his fathers care, and at the home of his girlfriend.
I also have a hard time with his explanation of the events. Our six year old has a hard time getting in his Grandpa's truck unassisted. When the driveway and sidewalk are icey, neither of the kids can even walk unassisted. Even with boots on their little feet. Also, they are both afraid of being outside alone after dark. Our oldest doesn't even like to take out the trash, which is right near the front door, unless I am on the porch watching. I can't imagine a three year old, being comfortable enough in the dark to go play a game of hide and seek in the foul smelling Septic Tank. You can certainly smell them when you are standing near them. There are just too many inconsistentcies. Plus the Missoulian article makes the 2nd place I've seen in print, that states the older children disagree with Mr. Roger's version of the timeline.
Unfortunately, none of this speculation is going to be that little Angel back to his family.
Oops Typo: " Bring that little Angel back to his family."
Not "Be".
My apologies..
Does anyone know if what Loic was wearing when he was found has been released? You'd think he would have been wearing a coat and gloves maybe even little boots if theres snow and ice on the ground and whatnot. But then again if the dad entrusts a 3yr old to get in a car by himself maybe he lets him dress himself too or thought since he's just going from the house to car no need to bundle up? But then again if its cold outside and Loic wasnt bundled up then you'd think the father would at least start the vehicle and let it warm up before telling Loic to get in. I mean that would seem logical but much of the fathers actions havent exactly been logical. Anyway, I think what Loic was wearing could be very telling.
Meehan stated he was still wearing the exact clothes, hat, coat, boots, gloves, etc.
as stated on the amber alert
Im sticking with what i wrote earlier. it seemed logical then and still seems logical now after all the discussion:
ok all this is not making alot of sense. in that short of time span of leaving him in the auto. As far as im aware almost all kids love to go out for rides when the family goes somewhere. The time span given , would mean this child immediatly got out of the auto when the father went inside and took off. that in no way would make sense to me. thus i feel the father is trying to cover up 1 of 2 things. 1. he is covering up the ammount of time the child was left in the auto or 2. he is covering up his murder and the time left inside the auto . in which case, the father has alot more to do with this that he is revealing. i am set on foul play, and i am set his father is lying either way. the question is which one is he lying about. i say the father is a prime suspect in this case. and a child on normal terms would not immediately leave a auto just to wonder off if he knew he was going for a ride. that is my last say on that and that is what i truly believe. no matter what news report comes out.
Velocity | Homepage | 01.27.07 - 7:37 pm | #
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sorry for my icky reference, i did think twice about that, but sometimes words fail me. trying to make a point that is probably obvious. BTW sometimes i respond to a certain portion of a comment here, and should try to clarify that i am not trying to personally attack the individual who happened to post it, often it may be someone i completely relate to and i am continuing a conversation, but some people rub me the wrong way.
i suppose, to be honest, if i were on scene i would be equally curious, but that's a visual i don't like either.
you know, a face peeking in a window, a reporters mike shoved in someone's face, i have a very active imagination
Watti,
I believe it's been established this type of septic tank riser was not made with a metal or concrete lid, but a plastic one (see posts by Ty P describing the area and later one by BOZ citing the specs on the tank riser/lid in question further up the thread). You cite a homeowner's guide that refers to Missouri code. The code may very well be different in Montana.
Still tragic no matter how you look at it though.
Alyn
Velocity, despite all of your qualifications and experience, I'm wondering about your understanding in the day to day life of parents. Your logic is immaculate, but we were given two versions of when father last saw child, in drive-way or in car. If in car, I'm assuming door was left open in anticipation of other children to be loaded in. The descrepencies noted between father and daughter's version were in regard to this time-period, which is not surprising, but just from what I gather seems to be along the line of moments. i don't know quite how to put this, but i do think even a typical 3 year old country kid is more sophisticated in tastes than a dog leaping at the chance for every ride. I just don't know if I believe he became curious or could have possibly just slipped in.
None of us having been there, we have to realize that anything is possible.
If he took Loic outside, opened the door to the vehicle, told him to hop on up and buckle himself in, and then went back in for another child... I can easily see Loic suddenly remembering something he left inside, or deciding he needed to go to the bathroom after all, and then getting back out to return to the house. If in fact the septic opening was right there by the driveway, it seems plausible that it was an accident.
I don't think this three year old was "going for a ride." I think he was simply "going home." That's nothing to get all excited about, especially if it's a trip made often.
Also, not knowing what happened in the house, we can speculate all evening... but I can easily see one of the other children missing a stray glove, needing one more drink, asking to go to the bathroom after the coat is zipped and the mittens are on. What was supposed to be an immediate return to the vehicle could've easily, with valid reason, become a three to five minute thing. That's too long, IMHO, to leave a child in a vehicle outside, but it is so very easy to lose track of time, and if Loic was a child who tended to stay put, didn't fuss about the cold... I can see how it would be very easy to let an extra minute or two pass, unnoticed, while readying those inside.
Three year olds also love to hide, if only for the shear joy of being found. Not at all implausible a child could be instructed to hop in the car as he has many times before, only to decide to play a joke on mommy or daddy.
Yes that was from when this all started i stated those words. the point i was making though was i stand by the 2 things that was one or the other. im not saying he is guilty of murder, but he at least is not being truthful about the time.
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i feel the father is trying to cover up 1 of 2 things. 1. he is covering up the ammount of time the child was left in the auto or 2. he is covering up his murder and the time left inside the auto . in which case, the father has alot more to do with this that he is revealing.
that comment i made was from the same day, so yes i later read it was unknown if the boy actually got in the veichle. and after hearing more facts, it would seem possible for a accident. But those 2 things i mention remain the same.
Allowing for the argument that he could have killed his child, is it even possible for a person to be 100% blameless when a child who is their responsibility suffers harm?
In imagining a scenario for accidental death how could you ever reconcile differences in time perception? (does that make sense to anybody, because I'm starting to confuse myself.)
There are accidents that just happen, and no one to blame. However, it is parents' responsibility to do their utmost to keep their children safe. Leaving a three-year-old outside alone in the dark does seem irresponsible to me. Even if Loic was able to open the car door and get in by himself, he would need to be supervised because hands can get closed in the car door, etc. If this was an accident, I'm sure his dad is torn up over it.
Does anyone know of an address to send card/flowers to for the family? Plz email me if so - thanks
Donations to the Loic Rogers Memorial Fund may be dropped off or mailed to West One Bank, P.O. Box 7758, Kalispell, MT 59904.
Without seeing the lid and riser itself I am not sure what to think. I have three boys 4,3 and 2 and they can move pretty quick and are sometimes capable of things I did not think they were. So far I have not heard any overwhelming evidence for motive. People go through ugly divorces and custody battles everyday and do not kill their babies. I mean really to throw your child in raw sewage to drown? Has anybody read anything to suggest he was that cruel of a person? He is guilty of neglegence though as far I am concerned I never let my boys put themselves in the car even if they are able, because it's just asking for trouble.
You seem to make a reasonable argument against murder, but in assuming negligence there has to be a real threat to safety that has been risked. Is it more important how cautious you are or if you know what the danger is?
Maternal family members have established a fund in memory of Loic Rogers to help pay for memorial services and defray family expenses. Donations to the Loic Rogers Memorial Fund may be dropped off or mailed to West One Bank, P.O. Box 7758, Kalispell, MT 59904.
Paternal family members ask that memorials be made to the Discovery Developmental Center, The Nurturing Center or New Covenant Fellowship.
Rachel J.,
There are some links up about midway, one that discusses the layout of the driveway, road and tank riser. The other shows a diagram from the manufacturer of the riser type that was used at this home.
See posts by Ty P describing the area and later one by BOZ citing the specs on the tank riser/lid in question further up the thread. There is also an actual picture taken from the side of the specific riser in question, but I'm not recalling which news story has that. I did get the lead for it though on this thread though.
Steve,
Would there be any possibility of numbering posts on these comment sections? It would make it easier to refer back to someone's link or description or information, etc.
Thanks for what you do.
If you read the interview given to the kalispell newpaper and the press conference to the tv station you maybe will care to look between the lines and ask more questions. She is married to a guy named Mark Rogers, engaged to a guy named Jesse James. How smart is that? And pregnant with who knows who's kid? What a gal. Check out the montana department of corrections website and click "con" their you will find listings for a Jesse James who "surprise" has served time for a sex crime (living in the Kalispell area) and also a Mark Rogers who also served time and is living in the Kalispell area. Are these the men Ariel has been with? Or just other men with the same names? Could this be why she does not have custody? Ariel Rogers had an attorney present at the interview in the press conference why? Her and her family have already set up a bank account for those to donate too. Hmm what is this to be used for a legal fund? I would like to hear the rest of the story. Something fishy is going on here, I dont think the truth has come out yet. I feel sorry for those children in that home with those parents and others who are born into bad homes. Hopefully the state will get involved in that situation. Montana is not like Florida and so one would hope the social workers would be aggressive and look into every detail of that family. Every child deserves to be born into a home of love with stable caring parents who put their interests first. Their are so many kids out their who are born into shitty homes infested with drugs and crime and mentally unstable parents. one would hope this is not another instance. Alot of people with children care about this little boy and are not going to let this be forgotten. Hopefully the police will find out what really happened. I dont believe these people and no one should give them any money until we have the truth about what really happened.
wow
Weberly--
Ditto.......wow
lis I looked up this in reference to your statement, about served time. Mark has never served any time...
These are merely men with the same names.
Both men in this reference were born in the 50's... This is neither of them.
As far as the 4th baby... This is not Mark's baby. As far as anything else that happend previously, during their custody battle I don't feel I need to disclose that information.
it's going to be ruled a tragic accident. the lid on the septic system was not properly screwed in place. the lid is lightweight and easy enough for a curious 3 year old to move. The latest from Kalispell's daily paper: http://www.dailyinterlake.com/ar...news/
news01.txt
thanks so much for the link. I had not yet read today's news or had a chance to talk with mark.
Thanks for the link to the daily inter lake story. Certainly illustrates the strong possibility of this being a tragic accident.
I'm very torn on what to thing and what not to thing. Things begin to add up then they don't because each scenario leaves questions that are yet to be answered.
A needless accident is no less tragic than if foul play is involved.
certainly
didn't read it thru, busy with other things, but not sure if other lid is exact with this or not, (as far as flush to ground) but so many significant possibilities are overlooked when someone is quick to judge or careless in analysis. so many assumptions people don't even realize are being made.
It is obvious that the boy was left alone for a longer amount of time than the father is willing to admit. My question is what about the other children in the house? How many were there and were they outside as well at any point?
I'm not even interested in knowing anything else, or talking about this family's horrible calamity, but I suppose others may have an interest in the safety of these lids, and what kind of things can happen to someone. these holes in the ground have always worried me because of baby jessica, but then again i think of everything and i'm well familiar with murphy's law. there is quite a wide range of acceptable parenting styles, parents have countless decisions to make and confusing info to process but ultimately they have to live with the results of everything that can happen to their child.
if you are going thru divorce/custody battle it is not very smart to be engaged to some one else and be pregnant with their child - then her 1st press conf. she is with the fiance and talking about the urn 'they' picked out for Loics ashes as if his father has no say ?? - wondering if she really really wants custody or if she just wants to start over again with a 'new' family ??
what conclusions do you draw from examining her motive, or are you looking for balance
Both homes I have owned have had septic systems. My latest home is a new house I had built & had a septic tank installed. The tank cover was made out of rebar & concrete. There were two metal handles on the top of the lid. I got to know more than I ever wanted to know about septic tanks while building our home when a readymix truck parked over the top of our the day after it was installed.
Our tanks in both homes were buried under approximately 3 feet of earth. I live in upstate NY, there are 2 types of septic systems that can be installed with new construction, A mound system(a system that is above the ground level), or a conventional. We installed the conventional type. I am surprised that Montana would be that much different, considering they get similar severe cold winters to upstate NY.
My point to all this is, how on earth could a 3 year old child pull a lid on top of them? The lids that I have seen are heavy.
Why wasn't the tank buried? My tank sits 10 feet from my home, but it is not visible. You only know there is a tank buried there in the winter time because the snow melts there first.
This case is too horrible to fathom...
form what i've seen and heard, this one was a large tank with a lightweight or plastic lid maybe 18" to 24" in diameter (i should be clear i have a terrible memory, and this info is available further up the thread). from a local newspaper photo (not stock, which i mention so people will realize those are sometimes used in place of) it looked like a little portion might have extended a few inches above ground. It looked twisty, like a screw shape, and I am not too familiar with any tanks but I recall people having to access them, some kind of maintenance perhaps. There's mention somewhere above regarding damage to the lid, broken bolts that were attributed to being run over. You have to choose your news sources carefully, especially since they sometimes get facts off the internet too. You can probably trust the LE in this one as they have every available resource working on it.