heels, sox & steelers
This is great...I think...
The Sporting News gave us an F:
http://www.sportingnews.com/your...ic.php?
t=542934
I could care less about Draft Grades - I care about Lombardi Trophy's...but if you are going to grade someone, shouldn't you know all the facts?:
"Questionable move: Waiting until the third round to address the offensive line and doing so only once."
Umm we drafted a Center as well - one that Mike Mayock loves...
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/dra.../story/
11680126
Something interesting that I read on the SCI.com forum - and I paraphrase:
On the most important play, at the most important moment, and on the game's most important stage....the OLine did their job....
Think about it...
SB
True, but if the OL did their job on the goal line and in their own end zone, we wouldn't have needed that drive.
Let's face it, the OL was lousy for much of last year, and will probably be only marginally improved in 2009.
I'm holding out hope for positive impact from Hills and Urbik. Maybe it's uninformed and groundless hope, but hey, maybe it will happen.
The past two years I was really annoyed that the Steelers didn't pick an offensive lineman in the first. Not that Timmons or Mendenhall won't be good players - just that I thought an offensive lineman was by far our greatest need.
This year I'm perfectly fine with our first pick. The biggest needs for the team were either defensive or offensive line. In fact, I think defensive line might have been an even bigger need than offensive lineman. If you look at 07 the loss of Smith crippled our defense. If you look at 08 the loss of several offensive lineman led to a crappy, but functional, offensive line. So it makes sense to commit resources to keeping an excellent defensive line excellent.
Further, when FO or other sites have looked at talent by position and round they have consistently found that defensive line talent disappers very quickly. Offensive line talent doesn't drop off as quickly. I don't feel like checking but I'm reasonably sure that when the Colts and Patriots won their Superbowls their lines were composed of mostly 3rd rounders or later picks.
So as much as we all would have loved to get a great tackle in the first round (of which I'm not convinced there was one close enough), I'm content to get a good defensive line prospect.
With a cap, you can't have probowlers at every spot. Quite frankly, if the online dominated all year last season, they would be on other teams now. In some positions, average good is better than great.
Re: sporting news grade. Seriously, who reads the Sporting News? I didn't know that was still even published. This draft may be one the best in years for the Steelers, IMO. Frank Summers is the big back we've been waiting for. Need 3 yards and a cloud of dust? Just ask Frank the Tank. Shipley is a steal in the 7th round. I also loved that they finally addressed the return game. An F!? That's ridiculous.
Well, hello, all, from sunny Bahrain. We haven't been near a decent satellite signal in ages, so that's why I'm only just now getting to say hi. 45 straight days out fighting those f'in pirates (and yes, I'm on the ship that helped save that Captain, though the USS Bainbridge took all the credit). It's a long, lonely way from home out here, but I'm just over halfway done. There's actually three of us Steeler fans out there on the Haly-B, and you would think that we lived in the Dark Ages with the lack of available information about the draft or the Pens in the playoffs. Oy. But it's the price we pay so that Deebo can enjoy his $20 mil. Anyway, missed you guys. Three more months of me popping up and I'll be stateside to throw in my 2 cents on a more regular basis.
Huck...nice work my friend....if you need any Steeler news let us know...more than happy to help...
Let's see what have you missed here?
Well DJ has lost his mind
Ryan is Ryan
Randy cheated on his own contest
....
Elaborate... You know how hard it is to find anything in Halosuck. Especially on a internet feed that keeps trying to come up in Arabic scribble.
I'm also hoping that Urbick can beat out Stapleton this summer. He sounds like a strong guy.
Huck...did you hear anything about our Draft Picks?
I am the Draft Khan of All Khans, Bill, and you WILL kneel before me!!!
Hey didn't I pick you in one of the rounds?
A wise choice, my son. For that, I will spare your life.
A little... Ziggy Hood in the first... After that, nothing.
Huck -- we got "Frank the Tank" Summers in (I think) the fifth round. For that nickname alone, it's a great pick. 
Huck - great work out there, thanks for all you're doing. Here's the list of draftees from this weekend from NFL.com with their "pick analyses":
Round 1, Pick 32 (32) Evander Hood DT 6'3" 300 Missouri
Pick Analysis:The Steelers snag the energetic Hood at the bottom of the first round to upgrade their depth along the line. Though many pegged Hood as a "one-gap" interior tackle, his combination of strength and movement fit in nicely as a 3-4 defensive end. With the luxury of learning behind a veteran crew, Hood should develop into a starter in a year or two.
Round 3, Pick 15 (79) (From Broncos) Kraig Urbik OT 6'5" 328 Wisconsin
Pick Analysis:The former Badger is a tough, blue-collar player with the ability to create a push along the line. Though he has limited athleticism, he gives the team a quality young player with the potential to develop into a versatile starter.
Round 3, Pick 20 (84) (From Bears through Broncos) Mike Wallace WR 6'0" 199 Mississippi
Pick Analysis:The former Rebel is a pure deep threat with outstanding speed and quickness. With Nate Washington leaving via free agency, Wallace has a chance to become an instant contributor as a third or fourth receiver for the Steelers.
Round 3, Pick 32 (96) Keenan Lewis CB 6'0" 208 Oregon State
Pick Analysis:Lewis made 48 starts in college. I've heard he's had some troubles with his tackling, but he's a solid press corner. He made a name for himself at the Senior Bowl.
Round 5, Pick 32 (168 ) Joe Burnett CB 5'9" 192 Central Florida
Pick Analysis:The Steelers get a talented but undersized corner prospect with Burnett. The former Golden Knight has good ball skills and should compete for a playing time as a possible dime corner candidate.
Round 5, Pick 33 (169) (Compensatory selection) Frank Summers RB 5'9" 241 UNLV
Pick Analysis:The former Rebel is a bruiser and has the skills to shine as a fullback or short-yardage specialist in the Steelers' offense. He could potentially steal some touchdowns from Willie Parker.
Round 6, Pick 32 (205) Ra'Shon Harris DT 6'4" 298 Oregon
Pick Analysis:Harris was a one-year starter, which is a concern. He's good against the double-team and has push up the middle. Harris performed well in the Shrine Game, and that helped him quite a bit. He's fast but sometimes struggles with his conditioning.
Round 7, Pick 17 (226) (From Buccaneers) A.Q. Shipley C 6'1" 304 Penn State
Pick Analysis:Shipley is short and has short arms compared to the prototypical center, but he's still an outstanding football player. It's tough to be in the NFL at his height and with his arm length, but he has very good ability. He will fit in well with the Steelers as a local Pennsylvania boy.
Round 7, Pick 32 (241) David Johnson TE 6'2" 260 Arkansas State
Pick Analysis:Johnson is an H-back and a Steelers-type player with quickness and the ability to run vertical routes. He had 16 yards per catch in college. He's a good fit for what Pittsburgh tries to do on offense.
Huck, thanks for your work out there. And the way the NHL playoffs are going, you might get the chance for revenge on Hossa.
I think the fact that the guy who gave us an F gave the Bengals an A tells you all you need to know for now. For real grades, let's wait a few years. On draft day, there's no way to tell the difference between Ryan McBean and Brett Kiesel, chosing the right one has a huge impact on the quality of a draft.
Huck, here are our UDFAs so far, too:
LS Mark Estermyer (Pitt)
LB Tom Korte (Hillsdale College)
T Ramon Foster (Tennessee)
QB Mike Reilly (Central Washington)
WR Tyler Grisham (Clemson)
S Derrick Richardson (New Mexico State)
QB Kevin McCabe (Virginia)
http://www.steelersdepot.com/blo...agent-signings/
I didn't follow the blow-by-blow analysis here on Day 1 (was sitting through 4:21 of Red Sox-Yankees) so I don't know if this was pointed out, but on the subject of Michael Oher, it was the Patriots that traded out of that spot. The Pats were in need of O-line help too, but instead traded down to select a marginal unknown at OT in Sebastian Vollmer.
I'm inclined to believe that the so-called "smart" teams didn't think much of the back end of the first-round talent this season. As always we'll wait to see what happens, but we weren't alone amongst loaded teams which didn't cash in the lower picks to fill specific needs with supposed (more) sure things. The Patriots used the volume approach to the extreme.
I heard they had like 12 picks or some such nonsense.
> I heard they had like 12 picks or some such nonsense.
Yep. 12 selections, and they're all system role players, with the possible exception of Darius Butler.
And several of them will be snagged by other teams when the Pats try to stash them on their practice squad. No team besides the Raiders and Bengals can fit 12 rookies on their team.
Undoubtedly, and the Steelers will face the same situation. The strategy though is that the drafting team gets the pick of the litter from a larger pool of draftees who all graded out (more) similarly. I'm not saying that's right or wrong but it's what the Patriots decided to do, and to a lesser extent what we decided to do also.
The Pats had a really strange draft, trading a lot, but not ending up with too many players to get excited about. It's almost like they were trading just to trade. I mean read this sequence:
traded Hobbs to the Philadelphia Eagles for a pair of fifth-round picks. The wheeling-dealing Pats immediately flipped both picks, trading up in the fourth round to take Penn State offensive lineman Richard Ohrnberger.
Doesn't that sound like a crazily convoluted way to get a 4th round OL?
If I had to guess, Ohrnberger would have slipped to the Pats in the 5th round (or later) anyway. More surprising was the decision to get rid of Ellis Hobbs, period. The kid had some raw talent (not to mention cockiness) but obviously with their free agent CB signings the Patriots decided to go in another direction. Still surprising given Hobbs' youth, kick return skills and relative low pay (for now).
Thanks to SB for the links..I don't think this draft will be long remembered for all the stars harvested from it but I think there are are lot of scheme and role players who will contribute.
I think the Pats picked a bad year to have numerous picks..I think all that trading around was just to impress Don Banks at SI...lol..who seems to drink their KoolAid with regularity.
I agree. The Pats seemed to trade just because they could. I felt the Browns did the same thing. I mean, I understand getting out of #5, that makes sense. But then drafting a center at #21 ! and 2 WR who sound like nothing but #3 WR with your 2 2nd round picks seems a little bit dumb.
You know who you were just talking about, right?
Yeah, but the Pats also traded out of this draft for *two* additional second-round selections in 2010-- so they're loaded again on Day 1 next year. They work this part of the system quite well, imo. If you don't like the players available in your slot, or you know the ones you do like will be available later anyway, it makes sense to be patient and cash in for doing so. By comparison some of the selections made after a team traded up were beyond stupid (e.g. Jacksonville trading to the top of the 3rd round to select that CB from William & Mary-- no offense to Ryan but they really needed to do that?)
> I agree. The Pats seemed to trade just because they could.
I strongly disagree, Cols. Four Day 1 picks this year, plus another two 3rd-round picks. Four Day 1 picks next year. The Pats are netting picks in these trades-- prime picks.
Wait a minute! I'm listening to Stan and Guy and some guy from Jerusalem named 'Israel' just sent a question in.....
Israel! You can get your list of Free Agents right here...
So what was your least favorite pick by the Steelers?
Mine is Mike Wallace. WRs with fast 40 times who have questionable hands and route running don't usually make great contributions in the NFL. Now if he can become Quincy Morgan as a returner, I'll be happy.
My least favorite pick will be the CB who doesn't make the team.
Even Wallace wasn't a serious reach though. I can't say that any one pick stands out as head-scratching, but I agree that the Urbik selection will face the most scrutiny going forward.
Least favorite? I'll go with Ra'Shon....just because I didn't read a lot of good about him - sounds like more of a Project....
Urbik will face scrutiny based on the current condition of our OL and the fact that Arians said he would compete for the starting job this year....
Cols, I can't judge any of the players negatively yet. Sonny isn't the name that usually comes to mind for a fierce defender, but that's about the depth of analysis I can come to about individuals without seeing them in black and gold. Spending only one pick on OL before r7 seems odd, though.
GlennW
I don't know. Isn't the point to come out of the draft with some difference maker type of talents? You can always trade your 1st picks for more picks in the next year's draft, but a some point you need to turn those picks into talented players, not just players that represent good value. Sometimes you have to either reach or draft a guy that falls to you even if you don't have a need at that position.
Yeah, a lot of expectations—a lot of them unreasonable—will be heaped on that Urbik kid.
Has anyone else mistakenly called called Ra'Shon Harris, Orien?
I'm rooting for Urbik, which goes without saying, but every Saturday (being in Big 10 country) you can help but to notice the Road Graders that are Wisconsin lineman....
> I don't know. Isn't the point to come out of the draft with some difference maker type of talents?
Well, did the Steelers do that this year (I know we have to wait on that, but do you currently think we drafted obvious difference-makers)? My original point was that we largely shared the same trade-down strategy as the Patriots did, except they will have three 2nd-round picks again next year. I think if we had come away with our needed O-lineman, plus Darius Butler and assorted role players *and* two 2010 second-rounders, we'd be calling that a brilliant draft.
Men...(I still love that expression in case you couldn't tell)....
Let's keep in mind the following:
1) We won the Super Bowl thus...
2) We selected dead last in the Draft - which means....
3) We have a very talented team - which results in:
4) Very few slots available for...
5) A 'difference maker'. Which would be easier to come by if you were the Browns or Lions
6) Our difference makers walked off the field in Tampa with Coach Tomlin
Maybe, but the Patriots trade for next year's draft picks every year. So next year they'll trade those 2 2nd rounders for picks in 2011. That really isn't all that hard.
Part of what I saw going on based on the comments that were made over the weekend and continue to be made today is this - we, gentleman, are now the standard....
We no longer 'chase' the standard...we are the standard...it's tough to come to grips with that, but we are....
I wonder what Finnegans Wake thinks about the draft.
You may be the standard, Bill, but don't forget: I am the Draft Khan of All Khans!
Huck...if you are still reading...you can see what we are dealing with here...
The seemingly long off-season has really affected Randy and DJ...
OH..ohhh..SB..You've angered the draft Khan of all Khans
Behold his works and tremble!
(I am gunning for deputy secretary assistant to the Draft Khan, IN case you are wondering)
Yeah, SB, I'm here. I'm guessing he had a good mock draft... which he put together in the comfort of his secret underground lair?
> So next year they'll trade those 2 2nd rounders for picks in 2011. That really isn't all that hard.
But that's not what the Patriots did-- they used four Day 1 picks in *this* draft (we used one!). How do you make 12 picks total, 4 on Day 1, 6 in the first three rounds *and* net two Day 1 picks for the following year? You're obviously not rolling the very same picks forward; you're gaining picks, good picks, simply by trading down and not all that far at that. Which makes a lot of sense when you look at the wide range of names and selections made after the first round.
To bring this back to where it started, I liked (not loved) our draft overall, but I don't see how you can say "great job Steelers" for getting 2 for 1 in the third round, and then turn around and criticize the Patriots for trading for the sake of trading when they're trading for and *using* more (and higher) picks than we are, playing from a similar starting hand (over recent seasons). Not to mention trading excess picks for Randy Moss, Wes Welker, etc. Thankfully in recent years the worst aspect of Patriots' drafts has been the actual selections (Jerrod Mayo excepted). It's a shortterm trend I wouldn't count on continuing though (given the success before that).
GlennW
OK, I see your point.
Yeah, now we just need to sit back and wait to see if our talent evaluators were on the mark as they generally have been in the past (under Colbert). I certainly didn't know anything about any of these guys after Ziggy Hood. For example, using some of the draft rating services, there's little difference in overall ranking between the CBs Lewis and Burnett, even though they were selected two rounds apart. Devil is in the details...
So, back to the QOTD, I think I'm going to go with Keenan Lewis, simply because I was still hoping for one of the second-tier/project OTs at the end of the 3rd round. A stream of those guys went right before us at the end of Round 5 too; otherwise I'll bet one of them would have been the selection instead of Burnett. There were 8 OTs drafted between our two CB selections! The endgame playing out that way may have been a bit of a miscalculation; trading up in the 5th may have made sense (granted at that point in the draft it's a crapshoot and impossible to guess at what other teams might do).
Newsflash....
Ashley Lelie was seen at Heinz Field today....
What I read and heard about our draft:
1. Ziggy is who we wanted
2. We tried to trade up in the 2nd to get a C or G
3. Go ahead and anoint Wallace as our Quincy Morgan
4. Urbik can play G or T, and we'll try him at C
5. The Tank is our short yardage/goal line back of the future, as long as he stays away from weed (unlike GR)
6. That guy from Penn St.? Backup.
And TSN? I believe they rated our draft in '99 as an "A" when we got Edwards, Shields, Porter, Outland Trophy winner Farris, Tuman, Zereoue, A. Smith, Malcolm Johnson, Kelsay, and the beloved Kris Brown.
I'd still give it an "A" due to Porter and Smith, but no one expected these two to become the cream of the crop. Everyone expected Edwards, Shields, and Farris to contribute immediately.
My point? No one, even Kiper, knows diddly-squat about draft classes the day after the draft. As I was telling my wife, more than half of the guys we drafted won't make the team.
Mayock believes that Shipley will be a starter in this league and Hartwig is a FA after this year....
Umm....I'm not sure how to tell you guy's this but, it's true...the Bengals have cut Gary Russell....
David,
Colbert said before the draft that the Steelers had to get three starters (eventually) from this crop for him to consider it successful. If that was truly the goal, I think he will have easily succeeded. And I agree with Bill (as usual) that Shipley will supplant Hartwig at center next year.
And Rob D,
I do have an opening for the job as Deputy Secretary Assistant to the Draft Khan of All Khans! My former Deputy Secretary Assistant unfortunately lost his head, literally and figuratively, during some palace intrigue with one of royal concubines. So if you're interested, please forward your resume.
Thank you Randy...I appreciate it....
SteelerBill & Randy, thanks for the info and I hope Mayock is correct. That would make two additions to the OL and it makes TSN look even worse than before.
This from Mike Lombardi of National Football Post and NFLN:
http://www.nationalfootballpost....raft-breakdown/
"PITTSBURGH: Mike Tomlin is my favorite coach, for sure. We had him on the Network, and he had me pumped up to play. What was more impressive than his motivational talks were his understanding of player development and what his coaching staff must do to make these players help the Steelers. No matter who the Steelers picked, they had a great draft because Tomlin will demand it from the players."
Put me among the doubters that our 7th round center will eventually start. I'm guessing that he'll be lucky to even make the team.
Eddie B was just on the Radio - he expects AQ to back up Hartwig this year and perhaps even start next year - he's preparing a column for tomorrow's PPG that will outline where all these guy's fit....
Men...do not let 'round' determine whether a man can start or not...
Some exceptions to the rule that you should seriously consider:
FWP - not drafted
Bart Scott - not drafted
Tom Brady - 6th Round
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Happy to have another draft behind us, it puts us one step closer to the field.
I am happy with our draft because they addressed every level of need and created camp competition for some important slots.
1. We addressed the aging DL with a guy who will redshirt this year. The FO has to decide what to do with Snack and Keisel. Only time will tell if Harris will add depth too. It would be a nice bonus.
2. We added to the o-line mix. I am of the opinion that the line of 2009 will be better than 2008 because of ability to play as a unit and because we don't play top 10 D's every other week this year. I think it is tough for a changing unit to excel under last years circumstances. Not to say that rules out some sort of adversity this year.
2a. I may be wrong but I think the FO made it clear they feel good about OT. Does that mean they like Hills? Does that mean they like Capizzi? Does that mean they have an indication that Max will sign a deal to stay longer? I don't know, but I think it is interesting that the only trading up they seem to have attempted was to get an interior lineman in R2. I seem to remember that Hills (like Sweed) was highly regarded prior to his injury at Texas and slipped because of it.
3. We addressed CB depth which is an issue with the loss of BMac and what is likely Townsend's last year. There will be some good competition with the vets and the rookies to fill out the roster.
4. We added a WR which is a need because of Nate, because we are 3 deep at the slot right now including Sweed and we have to think about Holmes being in the last two years of his contract. Don't get me wrong, I want Santonio to be a lifer but we have to keep developing for any turn of events.
5. And this is a big one: we added to the kick return competition. Santonio's return against the Chargers was a huge moment in that game. Having a weapon that helps us in field position is a huge need. Between the picks and Stefan Logan there will be competition for return yards. We improved on special teams last year; adding a return threat and robopunter increases the level of play on our special teams.
6. The Tank. We hopefully added to our goal line arsenal with Frank.
I don't think we should judge the FO harshly for picking Shipley in R7 -- maybe they got a steal. But it is better to save the R7 pick than one of the R5 picks. Would it have seemed like they invested in the o-line if they used an R5 on a guy a lot of people like? I do not believe that because we got Shipley in R7 instead of an earlier round it makes the acquisition of the player any less significant.
I am also glad they didn't trade up in R1 for Oher. I am happier with Hood/Urbik/Wallace which would have been the price (granted we would have had a pick in R4).
So, within the context of our needs I think they picked well but we won't really know much till the men report to Latrobe.
Good thoughts Bill. I don't know that Hood will redshirt. I imagine we'll see him in passing situations when the Steelers use a 4 man line.
Really, Cols? That would be cool as he brings a lot of speed to the position. I guess I auto slot D-line guys to the sidelines for a year but then again..that has usually been guys like McBean and Orien.
Does someone have the definitive write up on Hood? I seem to have a buncha conflicting junk in my brain that is clouding my perceptions of him.
Who would come off the field to let Hood on the field if he is around in pass rushing situations? Definitely not Woodley, Harrison, or Timmons, right? Maybe Hood could replace Keisel instead in those passing situations.
Random other question: if "Smokescreen" Leftwich does win the QB job in Tampa next year would he count towards our comp picks for 2011? M. Smith, BMac and Nate are all factors next year for us getting extra picks, wondered if Leftwich counted too.
Bill - sounds good to me
If Hood is indeed a fast interior rusher, then I could easily see Hampton (who already comes off on passing downs) and Keisel (or Smith, if he needs a breather) coming off with Hood doing a speed rush from the interior. His speed may also allow more stunting with Woodley/Harrison/Timmons/Smith/etc rushing from the outside. This is something that LeBeau does not do very often, but we rarely have speedy rushers on the DL (not counting true LBs), even in passing situations.
> I am also glad they didn't trade up in R1 for Oher. I am happier with Hood/Urbik/Wallace which would have been the price (granted we would have had a pick in R4).
More realistically just drop Hood and only one of Urbik/Wallace/Lewis (probably take your pick too) in a deal for Oher at or about 1.23, similar to what we did to get Santonio at 1.25 in 2006 (actually we didn't end up even losing a pick there, just moving back into the 3rd round). This is the opportunity that DJAR was upset about, but I think what is more likely is that the Steelers graded out the players and just wanted Hood more than they wanted Oher, period.
A lot of teams had the opportunity to trade up for Oher and didn't. Maybe several coaches scouts--and remember, these are the front office personnel of the teams with the best records in the NFL--just weren't all that enamored with the guy.
It's hard not to like the guy and his story, even if he is now a fruitbat, but Oher may be a great person who turns out to be a mediocre player. Time will tell.
Gentlemen...
I just had the opportunity to see AQ Shipley interviewed by Stan Savran - in a word - Big Fan...
He was the Remington Award winner last year (top center in College Football)....Grew up a Steeler Fan...
Idolized Mike Webster (he went to school with his son)....AND wants to wear #52...
Love the guy...
Oher or not, I'm more upset about not getting Unger - he's a guy we were clearly trying to get, and the trade where he was drafted was for a 3rd and a 4th.
I would've liked us to get Oher, but if our scouts liked Hood better, then that's fine. But we did like Unger, and we didn't make the effort to get him. That's what bugs me - that the FO just doesn't seem to care very much about the condition of the o-line.
DJAR,
It's been reported that the Steelers did try and trade up for Unger. I don't know if they didn't suceed because they felt the price was too high or what.
Keep in mind folks that we didn't have much to offer to trade up - we were trading at the 'bottom' of the round....
31 other teams had better draft positions to offer....
Here's a thought: The Steelers didn't sign Mike Reilly just to be a camp arm. In fact, Reilly probably had offers from several teams and he chose to enlist with Pittsburgh.
How did our front office entice him? By promising he'd be in the mix for the No.3 QB spot?
From the PPG, it looks like Hood will be used inside in some 4 man front in the nickel and dime defenses, while Urbick is going to compete with Stapleton for the RG job/
"... Tomlin mentioned that Hood might play inside when the Steelers use two inside linemen and two linebackers as their front four in their nickel and dime defenses.
Kraig Urbik will get a chance to compete for Darnell Stapleton's starting job at right guard."
Nah, DJAR's right about the Unger trade potential. Seattle received that 2.49 pick for 3.68 and 4.105, so pretty obviously we could have gotten the same pick for 2.64 and 3.96, if that's what we'd wanted to do. Steelers probably were only offering 2.64 and 4.132. If we'd made this trade, essentially replace Urbik/Wallace with Unger. Should we have done this? Time will tell (maybe).
> How did our front office entice him? By promising he'd be in the mix for the No.3 QB spot?
Probably not this season, but eventually Reilly could realistically compete for the #2 spot. Which he could also do almost anywhere, of course. In the shortterm I wouldn't mind Batch getting cut if both Dixon and Reilly show real promise (there's an experience risk there obviously, but that's not unheard of).
I just watched last nights Sports Beat and the Shipley interview made me a fan, too, SB.
For what its worth both Stan and Eddie B think highly of him. If he works out, it is a great story. Shipley said Webster gave him a hand written note after one of the games AQ played with his son.
Somewhere Mike Webster must be happy to see AQ and a Wisconsin guy joining the o-line.
Was Foote good friends with Russell?
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2...ng-larry-foote/
If true, somewhat surprising after all the commentary on how valuable Foote is as at least a backup. Ed Bouchette called this, though. As opposed to Russell this really would be a salary cap move.
This is pure speculation (unlike, say, everything else I write), but maybe Tomlin and BA are thinking about using Dixon in a Slash role. My evidence is thin: signing Reilly and previously wanting to sign both Batch and Leftwich while Ben and Dixon are under contract. But it isn't no evidence, as often seems to be the case for Florio's rumors.
I hope we can keep Foote. Having him allows Juan to play all over the place, which I think is hard for QBs and D coordinators to deal with.
To DJAR's point about the FO's lack of emphasis on OL (which is also bugging me): I went back and took quick a look at all the drafts from the beginning of Cowher's tenure through today. It's interesting.
92 - 02:
4 first round choices (Simmons, Faneca, Stephens, Searcy)
1 second rounder (Marvel)
4 third rounders (Farris, Conrad, Wiggins, Stai)
03 - present:
3 third rounders (Urbik, Essex, Starks)
the time periods I chose admittedly have an impact on the comparison, but something has clearly changed from Cowher's first 10 years. and no first or second round choices spent on OL in the last seven years is pretty strong evidence of underinvestment.
CE, interesting stuff. I was just looking at past drafts, too, but for a different reason. I was curious how many starters and backups came from each year.
From 1998-2007, each draft produced 2-3 starters, except 1999 and 2002 which each produced 4. Each draft also produced 1-2 backups who were on the team for a while or became our P/K, except 2003 (unless you count St. Pierre). We also drafted a Pro Bowler pretty much every year. A typical Steelers draft has had 4-5 guys who ended up making significant contributions. This was more than I would have expected. Add in our UDFAs, and our FO has been consistently very good.
I'm a little disappointed to see Foote go. He's been a solid contributor, and it's strange timing. Additionally, that means we have no chance of getting a comp pick for him next year when his contract expires.
Who's reporting that Hood was the guy they wanted? I appreciate that they like him, but I haven't heard that.
And, really, you guys think Bouchette knows what he's talking about with Shipley? Or where everyone's going to fit in? Come on. He's a good journalist, but he's no seer.
Wow
If Foote is gone, I'm really surprised. I've always liked him and thought he was pretty underrated.
I don't understand why the Steelers would cut Foote. He's what 27 or 28, has a reasonable contract for one more year and has performed pretty well for them.
Look for the Patriots to sign him up as the 2nd coming of Tedy Bruschi.
Foote's release is official:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/ne...tory?
id=4107676
Wow...Larry Foote has been cut?
The only issue is that I only saw it on PFT.com not anywhere else...
Umm nevermind...just saw it on ESPN.com....
Let the speculation begin folks - we now have a lot of room under the cap after re-signing Hines...
Maybe now Starks gets a long term deal, Hampton gets an extension and Heath Miller signs on for a while.
If cutting Foote enabled even one of these moves (prefereably Starks) then I'm OK with it.
> we now have a lot of room under the cap after re-signing Hines...
Do we? That's not what we're hearing in the reports of these latest cuts.
Hate to see Foote go. Always liked him.
QOTD, who would you cut instead of Foote to save the cap space? Are there guys who's cap hit are similar but are not as valuable? I can't think of anyone.
I can't think of anyone either. The only ones I can think of would be the backup D-Linemen (Hoke, Eason, Kirschke, etc.), but I'm not sure they make $2.8 MM in aggregate.
FWP maybe for relative effect (i.e. he would have a bigger effect but maybe not proportionate to the amount of money he makes over Foote), but I also don't want them to cut him.
I don't think Kirchke is going to make this team. Doesn't Hood make him expendable?
good stuff, ELSM. on a related note, my other conclusion from looking over the past drafts was that my earlier thought -- maybe the FO wasn't great at OL evaluation -- in fact was not correct. Arguably it's the opposite: they've actually done a pretty good job by achieving mediocre line play despite the underinvestment. put another way, plenty of other teams have invested more (i.e., spent high choices) on the OL only to get similar results.
of course, none of this addresses the question of why the FO has de-emphasized investment in the line. maybe they think linemen have gotten overvalued in the draft -- ? 9 tackles selected in the first round the last two yrs would support that view.
Kirschke is on his last legs, but Orpheus Roye was also on the roster at the end of last season, so it all depends on the exact number the Steelers decide to keep at each position. Scott Paxson at 3rd-string NT is no sure thing either. But it's way too early to be breaking down the 53-man roster (plus practice squad).
Totally off topic:
I had some people at work ask me a question. Why doesn't Pittsburgh have an NBA team? I adopted the Pitt team at the NCAA this year and noted the rabid following for that squad and wondered if that would translate to an NBA following. Just curious..
It's hard not to like AQ..for sure. I hope he makes the team but I am in no way counting on it. And I am imagining his short arms against the Ngata's of the world and cringing!
A big part of the reason the Steelers backed off at OL in the draft was the number of productive seasons they got from Faneca, Marvel, and (to a lesser extent) Simmons, all drafted high within a 5-year period-- they weren't going to keep up that rate. Of course that rationale has no longer held for a couple years now, but it explains the period of 2003-2007 or thereabouts (you know, when our O-line didn't totally suck).
Asking any center to go up against Ngata is tough. Maybe we shouldn't base our judgement on whether or not a center can hold up to Ngata, who is probably the best NT in the game right now.
I'd settle for Shipley just becoming a Hartiwg instead of a Mahan.
Does Foote release = Lelie signing?
Smith: on Eddie B, he is a journalist. When I hear him say things like that I believe he is basing his statement on opinions from sources in the organization and conversations with scouts and not his time in the film room.
As for early o-line picks, that may also be related to the recent run on OTs in the first round the last two drafts.
Well, Foote's release is only semi-official. The Steelers have been trying to get him to renegotiate, and maybe that slim possibility still remains.
"The Steelers plan to release starting linebacker Larry Foote, the Post-Gazette confirmed today.
"In a mysterious twist, however, the release is not planned over the next several days and Foote will be kept on the roster for this weekend's required minicamp, sources said."
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09.../966120-
100.stm
That is interesting. An extension for Foote perhaps?
ESPN Radio 1250 is reporting that he is going to be released...Larry Foote confirmed this with Mike Logan....
While I'm sure saving $2.85 million and getting Timmons more playing time were most of the motivation for cutting Foote; I think that Patrick Bailey showing he could be a decent backup ILB was a little more motivation.
Here is all you need to know about the average fan...
ESPN conducted a poll of who had the best draft - the Jets won....ummm name their 2nd pick (it should be easy they only drafted 3 men)
I hear you, Glenn, that OL wasn't an obvious, crying need until during/after the 06 season. (attending the Oct 06 Raiders game out here certainly impressed it upon me!) however, the writing was already on the wall a year or two prior to that: Simmons was well past his diabetes diagnosis, Faneca was approaching 30, and Hartings was nearing retirement. therefore I'd include the 05 and 06 drafts in the period where OL should've been higher on the priority list. so, that's five drafts and only 2 1st-3rd round choices spent.
I'm in full agreement, and the O-line issue has only escalated with each subsequent year, especially as alternatively the Steelers don't exactly make splashes in free agency (Mahan, Hartwig-- okay, Hartings was a rare coup). The Steelers probably believe that they've kinda sorta addressed the problem for the near future with Urbik, but more likely that's only a very small start.
According to Eddie B on ESPN Radio - Larry Foote forced this move by the Steelers....he wants to play and does not see getting much playing time with LT coming on and Farrior playing as well as he has....
Bill in DC -- other teams overvaluing OT/OL the last two drafts would be among the better reasons not to invest there IMO. if that trend continues, though, I wonder what the long-term implications will be for us. so much of this team's identity/philosophy -- on both sides of the ball -- has been predicated on having a strong OL.
(btw, that still applies now that we have a franchise QB.)
Ahh Larry Foote is still on the Roster - the Steelers are attempting to trade him....
They tried to trade him during the draft as well...
So here's the deal...they will try to trade him over the weekend - if they cannot he will officially be released...
Do any of you guy's work in an office environment where there is a 'cute girl' but in the grand scheme of things she's only average?
In other words her being cute is the equivalent of being the 'tallest midget'....
You could equate that with the way the Steelers looked at the last two drafts....
Just a thought over coffee on a cool Tuesday afternoon in Chicago
Not much talent at the Chicago office these days, SteelerBill?
More news a Foote.....
As we all know - he wants to join the Lions:
http://www.detnews.com/article/
2...s+to+join+Lions
So speaking of recent league-heavy O-line drafts, who won that $10 bet between DJAR and (somebody) over X number of OL being drafted in the first Y selections?
SteelerBill: great reference. I went to Carnegie Mellon undergrad, so I'm extremely familiar with the "tallest midget" phenomenon!
to your point, if the rest of the league is systematically overvaluing OL, then I generally agree -- we should likely want to be drafting elsewhere. Moneyball in the NFL.
but I do wonder about what it all means. e.g., if our weak-OL offense can't control the ball as we have in the past, can our aggressive D can operate anywhere near as well as it has in the past?
I need to be careful on how I answer that Glenn - I work from home....
Who won the draft contest?
CE...my dad attended CMU as well...back when it was Carnegie Tech...
Well....the FO obviously knows a lot more than we do about how the OL is currently constituted...
> if our weak-OL offense can't control the ball as we have in the past, can our aggressive D can operate anywhere near as well as it has in the past?
I'd say that 2008 just proved that it can, and that the current system can work, however tight the margins. Still, the formula of load up on defense and skill players and cobble together an O-line that just allows Ben to scramble around long enough to make big plays doesn't seem like a long-lasting one, as Ben advances in age.
Cols....you mean you missed it?
Randy flew a banner over Heinz Field...
Expression I cannot get enough of:
"Hit that horn baby, let's dance"
Expressions that I don't want to hear from SteelerBill
"Hit that horn baby, let's dance"
At some point (like maybe next draft???) won't every team (but the Steelers) have too many young, early draft picks with $$$ invested in them to pick any?
Does anyone have a team by team breakout for the past few drafts?
In the draft contest, I was spared last place by Ryan. I would have won my over-under bet, though, as I pegged it at 4.5 and took the under and Randy won with 3.5 points.
SteelerBill: well, I hope for your dad's sake the male/female ratio was a little less skewed then... but I bet it wasn't. (I kid. well, half-kid).
Glenn: I think we're in basically the same place here. I'll grant you that 08 proved it can work -- if you're willing to hamstring your offense with ineffective run plays that only keep the clock moving, and with the risk of Roethlisberger being separated from his senses every third play. that's a tightrope I'd prefer not to keep walking.
Cols...I am currently laughing my ass off....
Men...here is something else that should make you laugh:
http://www.nationalfootballpost....on-hard-knocks/
Found the $10 bet between DJAR and Finnegans Wake on OTs selected in the first round...
DJAR:
"FW - I'd be willing to wager money that there will be no more than 2 in the top 10, 3 in the top 15, and 4 in round 1."
FW:
"OK, I'll do ya $10 on that. FW wins if and only if ALL conditions are met: 2+ OTs 1.1-1.10; 3+ 1.1-1.15; 4+ 1.1-1.32."
So the winner is... I'm not sure. Their propositions aren't precisely the same (I count 3, 3, and 4 OTs in the respective categories). In the spirit of the argument though, I'd say DJ was more correct. There were only 4 OTs taken before us at 1.32, and Britton, Unger and Beatty slipped below that but we just weren't interested.
And sorry, that last assessment was based (mostly) on this from FW:
"I'm just looking at who's out there on the board, and in a year where there are 4 outstanding OTs, and 2 guys who really right on the cusp, I'll stick with 3 OTs in the top 10, 4 in the 15, and 5-6 in R1. In fact, I'd be willing to bet money on it."
So the bet itself wasn't precisely nailed down, but in early February DJAR nailed this exactly with the slight exception of one OT moving from the top 15 to the top 10.
Where has FW been? I'm interested in his draft take.
Official word on Larry Foote from Steeler Brass:
http://news.steelers.com/article/105143/
“Contrary to published reports, Larry Foote is still a member of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Any stories indicating that Larry has been released by the team are inaccurate.”
-- Steelers Communications Coordinator Dave Lockett
And some additional information on Larry Foote from the PPG:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/0.../966120-
100.stm
So has anyone heard the Jon Runyan rumor yet? Or did I just start that over here?
That clarifies things. He's gone either by trade, or after the weekend, released.
Honestly, my intent was to structure it so that it was going to be a push - unless Cols or I were right on every proposition, or wrong on every proposition, then no action.
So I think its no action.
Err, FW, not cols.
Ryan....take a look at the 'worst 3rd Round Pick'....
Men...take a look at the 'best seventh round pick'....
http://pit.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=...68&p=2&
c=860780
Also...for those of you with a subscription....Wex refers to this as perhaps Tomlin's best draft yet over at SCI.com
So, Foote is pushing this news into the public moreso than the Steelers. That's not great, as it limits whatever trade leverage the Steelers might have (very little), but no big deal, I suppose.
From what I read Glenn - the Lions were offering a 7th Round pick for Foote during the Draft - we didn't take it.
And you are correct, if the Steelers are going to release him anyway, why would you trade anyone for him?
My theory about Foote: the Steelers don't want to hand him over to the Pats or Ravens, both of which need inside inside help and could use his services. My guess is he gets shipped somewhere in the NFC for a 6th-7th round pick.
Dean...I read that the Colts may be interested in him too...
Tomlin is going to have a hard time topping his 1st draft. Timmons, Woodley, Spaeth, Gay, and Robo is a really good draft.
I'm really curious how last year's rookies fare in 2009. Mendenhall and Sweed should have a lot of impact this year. The question is whether or not Davis and Hills have any impact on the roster at all.
> My guess is he gets shipped somewhere in the NFC for a 6th-7th round pick.
Well, if that's the case, then just take the Lions up on their offer, dammit. That's what Foote wants anyway, and we don't want him going to the Patriots/Colts/et al. The fact that we haven't already done so makes me suspicious of the rumor on the Lions' offer though. I also have my doubts that anyone wants to pay him the contracted $3m this year, although a re-negotiation could be agreed to in advance as a contingency.
Eddie B's profile of The Tank makes me excited to see him on special teams coverage. That was a huge difference between 08 and 09 and with Robo back, it should be even better. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/0...9/966200-
66.stm
I'll admit to being very skeptical of Davis and Hills, but I hope I'm wrong. Hills, at least, has overcome the odds before: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnma...zine&
id=3672971 Hard to imagine him as a TE.
At the bottom of Eddie B's piece, there was this, too:
The Steelers signed five more undrafted rookie free agents, bringing the total to 13. In the latest batch are wide receiver Steven Black of Memphis, defensive tackle Jeff Bradley of Western Carolina, wide receiver Cedrick Goodman of Georgia, defensive tackle Steve McLendon of Troy and running back Isaac Redman of Bowie State in Maryland.
RE: Foote
He overachieved his whole time here and deserves to go where he wants to go. The NFL is a business, so if he can get 3+ million at BAL or NE, so be it.
I'm gonna miss his "Detroit Pershing Doughboys", though.
I agree with you about Foote's character, but likewise the NFL being a business, you get something in return for him if you can. It's fairly unusual to just release a contracted player at his request in any case. The only reason it's happening here (imo) is that Foote is a marginal cap liability anyway. Otherwise he's still a useful player.
Agree with the comments that Foote deserves a chance to start elsewhere, but it's entirely fair -- not to mention smart -- for the team to try to find a non-rival home for him. I don't care all that much about the Colts, but I wouldn't love to see him end up in NE. If that means he doesn't go to a winner, so be it.
FWIW
The Steelers got Mayock's #3 DL with the pick of Hood and his #3 OG with Urbick.
DJ
You'll appreciate this quote from the St. Louis Rams's GM...
"I don't care if I screwed up in picking the tackle No. 2,'' Devaney told me. "I was tired of seeing our quarterback get killed. I don't care if we give up 50 points a game, I'm not going to sit around and watch our quarterback get abused the way he did last year and the way he would have if we didn't address the offense line."
And a pet peeve of mine that always comes up around draft time is this: You hear all about tall receievers and tall CBs in the context of the fade route. But what you don't see is that in the NFL season, the fade route isn't called all that much.
Does it help to be tall in those positions? Sometimes, but it helps even more if your are quick and able to get open or cover your man. The fade route is just one small thing that a receiver or CB does.
Also
Why was Abram Elam so sought after by the Browns? He seems like a decent player, but not much different than a safety you can get in almost any round of the draft.
I wouldn't hinge my trading of the #5 pick in the draft on this guy.
Has training camp started yet?
Cols...without doing any research on the man the only answer I can give is that this is the same franchise that drafted Brady Quinn and within two years tried to trade him....
SB, it is the same franchise but a new GM and coach. Maybe they are as dumb as the old regime. Or maybe the new regime didn't think that the guys they could pick at 5 were worth the guaranteed money they'd have to pay. Time will tell how smart they are.
Oh I think they were smart to trade down from #5, it's getting 3 marginal players that I don't think was so smart.
"Has training camp started yet?"
I'm with you, Eric.
Wow..wait until DJ sees this.
In a 2010 7 Round Mock Draft the Steelers don't address the OL until the 4th round!
http://www.nfldraftsite.com/2010.../
2010mock.htm#1
I too will miss Foote.
His identification as a "Detroit Pershing Doughboy" says alot about a guy who was big10 first team, defensive player of the year,and all-american for michigan.
cool.
DJAR and GlennW
This talk about a 2nd round pick being the equivalent of a 3rd and 4th etc. ignores the fact that teams will not trade to a competing team. Just like Denver traded the crybaby to Chicago that is in a completely different conference, most teams will only trade with a team in another division or conference where their trade makes sure that the player that they lose will not later haunt them. Most of the teams ahead of the Steelers in round 2 who were possible candidates for a trade for Unger were competitors of the Steelers who would not take a chance on giving the Steelers an advantage (Baltimore, Patriots, Cleveland, Bengals). When the Steelers traded up in previous drafts, it was typically with Vikings, Bears or teams less likely to be direct competitors! So why not recognize that no one is obligated to trade with you, and will not trade if the trade will come back to haunt you. So why do teams trade with the Browns and KC? Wake me up when the latter become a threat!
Cols,
while I agree that the fade is not thrown a whole lot in the NFL, I think the reason is that it takes a special kind of receiver to make the play with a good enough success percentage rate. See Larry Fitzgerald, Randy Moss, even Chad Ocho Cinco back when Palmer could stand up.
Wex has a great article over at SCI.com where he interviews Arians...
He states that the Steelers, in round one, really really liked Eric Wood. They also liked Max Unger a great deal and did not expect Ziggy to fall to them. They did try to trade up for Unger....
Also, they considered Duke Robinson a 'low motor' guy and believe that Urbik is a 'high motor, aggressive, guy' that will help a lot in the screen game...(it doesn't sound like they felt that they had the right personnel to run the screen last year)
There's actually a ton more there - really really good stuff
> This talk about a 2nd round pick being the equivalent of a 3rd and 4th etc. ignores the fact that teams will not trade to a competing team.
First of all, Chicago traded the Unger pick to Seattle for an offer the Steelers could have bettered with only slightly better picks if they'd wanted to (in the example I gave), so this competitive issue wasn't even pertinent in this particular instance. So this is a fair point in some cases, but in general I think it's overstated. New England freely traded picks with Baltimore so they could select Oher, for example. And a team has no control over their original picks once they've been flipped to another team. Also, this isn't a case of dumping a valuable veteran (e.g. Tony Gonzalez) rather cheaply for ulterior motives-- this is straight trade of picks for picks. If you believe you're receiving better picks than you're giving up, why wouldn't you make the trade? You don't want to outsmart yourself when you don't even know what the other team is going to do with the pick. I believe that it was simply the case that the Steelers thought the price of moving up in the 2nd (or 1st) round was simply too high for them.
I think GlennW is correct. It's the simplest answer and it makes sense, knowing that in the past the Steelers managed to trade up to grab Holmes, Polamalu, and (gag) Colclough.
I'm not even being critical of the Steelers' draft strategy; rather I just agree with DJAR that an explanation of "we couldn't have done this even if we wanted to" doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. The opportunities to trade up were there, as they have been in the past. But no excuses offered when none are necessary (for now at least, let's see how the players we did draft fare).
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