COMMENTS
Your ever enduring effort to discredit the "nordish" propaganda is welcomed by all people who believe in non-ideological analysis of racial/ethnical subjects.
Cheers
Well done mate!
But the following genetic research shows that there is some African ancestry in southern European populations:
http://www.geocities.com/vetinar...rilord/
port.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/vetinar...ilord/
atlan.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/vetinar...lord/
sicily.pdf
Xguy, there is some clusters where u can find that ancestry in residual level. African ancestry in southern europe populations is a misconcept.
Also, Xguy, have you seen the following maps?
http://img78.photobucket.com/alb...orme/
egroup.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/alb...orme/
jgroup.jpg
Clearly, there have been significant African and Middle Eastern population movements into Southern Europe.
You should post some pictures of tanned Scandinavians. Unlike Britons who burn in the sun more than any other ethnic group, Scandinavians can tan pretty well, due to their non-white Finno-Ugrian admixture.
Of course, Southern Europeans have not received any significant gene flow from outside of Europe since prehistoric times, and all Europeans have negligible levels of recent African and/or Asian admixture. This should be common knowledge by now.
It doesn't matter when the gene flow happened. Whether it occurred during prehistoric times or recent times has no bearing on the fact that Southern Europeans absorbed a significant dose of North African and Middle Eastern haplotype variants. Yes, northern Europeans have it too, just far less of it.
Read the page that I linked to (all of it...thoroughly) and maybe you'll stop pursuing such silly lines of reasoning.
"Silly lines of reasoning"? Not at all. I'm just reporting genetic facts and geographic inevitabilities. Are you familiar with the first principal component of genetic variation in Caucasoids? It varies from the Middle East at one pole to Northern Europe at the other, with Southeast Europeans in the middle. And, heh heh, how 'bout this:
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2003 Jun;121(2):157-71.
"In particular, a 'core' of populations directly facing the north and the east of the Mediterranean basin, from the Middle East to the Italian Peninsula, was found to be genetically undifferentiated."
*chuckle*
-chuckle-
The authors of this article also state: "However, because these markers also reveal a substantial amount of within-population variability and the sample sizes are generally rather small, the estimated haplotype frequencies are associated with large standard deviations. This, in turn, explains the lack of power of the tests used to reject the null hypothesis of no genetic differentiation. "
Lack of power to reject the null hypothesis.
Too bad thew reviewers did not then have the "power" to "reject" a paper that contradicts its own findings - or perhaps the authors were forced to write that in response to a critical review.
I am also deeply amused by the comparisons of Fig. 1 with Fig. 3. The first shows that Sicilian and Greek patterns being similar to Dutch/German. Then, in Fig. 3, where they attempt to visually "prove" their hypothesis, they "just happen" to leave out those Northern European samples.
heh heh chuckle
Look at the mtDNA.
All of the haplotypes used in Y chromosome and mtDNA analyses look impressive at first glance, until you realize that, will rare exceptions, these are non-recombining systems. Thus, all the haplotypes are being inherited as a single locus; in other words, Y and mt studies are equivalent to single-locus studies. When people - for example Cavalli-Sforza being among the first and most well known - use a significant number of autosomal loci for genetic analysis, it is not difficult to distinguish Middle Easterners from Mediterranean Europeans. So, just because certain Y chromosomes bear a common Neolithic origin does not mean that the various populations cannot be genetically differentiated.
It simply means that by using a single-locus study (or by looking at particular haplotypes to attempt to define what that single-locus is), the populations cannot be differentiated.
The problem with Commesso is that he looks Middle Eastern even without the tan.
The DYS392-13 vs. 11 ethnic comparisons are quite interesting, as they are said to most probably represent Paleolithic ('proto-European') vs. Neolithic patrilineages.
Most interesting, indeed.
I agree though that Commesso looks like Intifada material...
Rogers Hornsby:
>>> Are you familiar with the first principal component of genetic variation in Caucasoids?
Are you familiar with my website? You know, the one you're at right now? I assure you there's nothing you can post on this subject that I haven't already seen and addressed in some fashion. So keep your "genetic facts and geographical inevitabilities", as well as your unearned "chuckles", to yourself.
Tyrus Raymond Cobb:
>>> Too bad thew reviewers did not then have the "power" to "reject" a paper that contradicts its own findings - or perhaps the authors were forced to write that in response to a critical review.
The biological scientist (and, regrettably, WN) Michael Rienzi did a lengthy deconstruction of that article. Unfortunately, he had to shut his site down soon after, not allowing enough time for the page to be indexed by Web.archive.org (and I didn't save it). He pointed out similar flaws, which is not to suggest that SE Europeans are totally unrelated to Middle Easterners. All of Europe received Neolithic input, and the SE somewhat more. This is old news, yet Rogers Hornsby thinks we're all hearing it for the first time, and that it has some sort of special significance.
Tony Lazzeri:
>>> The problem with Commesso is that he looks Middle Eastern even without the tan.
Whatever you say, "Tony".
Webmster: maybe that Pontikos fellow can give you a copy of the original article?
Southern europeans this, southern europeans that what the matter anyway? Can one think that thereīs such a great division between northern and southern europeans? I live in portugal and i can tell this much, several hundreds of german guys live here and, after a few years living here, u canīt tell much difference in spite of the blonde hair there skin is just like ourīs. Second of all, if u know your european history, youīll find many reasons for the intense mixture between people south/north.
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/
publica..._v290_p1155.pdf
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu.../
002082.web.pdf
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publica...21_p270-
279.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/vetinar...ilord/
italy.pdf
Knowledge is a very usefull thing and powerfull yet dangerous on minds obscured.
I saw in Dodona forum that Pontikos said that the so-called "signficant African admixture" in the Vona study was only ~5 % North African. And that was Y chromosome.
I have yet to meet a blond Nordish whatever whose skin wasn't yellow. All that "pinkish white don't tan" is rubbish. Blonds tan and tan very well. White skin usually goes with black hair. Olive and yellows go with brown hair. Excluding the brown shades of hair, the number of blonds in Europe is in the minority everywhere. I do not see light brown and "dirty blond" as blond. It is very likely that the highest rate of depigmentation found in Europe is of Finno-Ugrian origin and only Nordic via racial mixing.
@ Xguy
If you have some point to make and want to back it up with a quote from a study, that's fine. But don't just post a series of unidentified links.
Incidentally, I've seen all those studies, and what you have to understand is that there's currently a debate among geneticists about whether haplogroup frequencies can accurately gauge Neolithic input levels, or whether such an approach is limited and prone to error. Newer statistical methods are proposing a larger Neolithic contribution throughout Europe, which appears more consistent with archeological and other evidence.
If you have some point to make and want to back it up with a quote from a study, that's fine. But don't just post a series of unidentified links.
What I am saying is that it is pretty obvious that south-eastern Europeans such as the Greeks and the southern Italians have some Middle Eastern and/or North African ancestry as much as some people here may try to deny it.
>> What I am saying is that it is pretty obvious that south-eastern Europeans such as the Greeks and the southern Italians have some Middle Eastern and/or North African ancestry as much as some people here may try to deny it.
"It's pretty obvious" does not an argument make.
To me some nordic type guys look like marcians. What about this as a fact?! Phobic! get real!
Holy shit! Maria Grazia Cucinotta is hot. That is all.
Now theres a fact solomon 
Indeed, my friend, indeed.
And there is more where that came from. Ihiihihhi
Whatever... latines are much sexier!
Besides, most studies sound bullshit to me, too many contradictions. Get real folks!
I was born blonde, blue eyed, pink skin. It last a few years. Then my hair became brown, my eyes became brown, my skin became Portuguese white.
I wonder if I was born in North Europe, my qualities would had turn darker. Fenotypes are flexible, adapt to envinronment...
Off course I am not talking about the lighter weight of Indians or chinese... that is due to the food they have been eating for centuries...
I bet there aren't big green eyes with silky dark long thick eyelashes in North Europe. There are a lot of them in my family We are a very sexy family I LOVE PORTUGAL 
WOW!
Her boobs are really the latin type, so sexy!
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This whole study seems to be like mixing sugar into bullshit, it doesn't do anything for the sugar, but
the bullshit gets sweeter (more digestable).
This whole study is an admixture of truth and false information, based on the Darwinistic theory of evolution,
Versus the Biblical account of events,
known as Creation.
One such classical example is that the
American Indian, due to looks, must have "come from Asia", whereas in truth, you can argue all you want, but
God put them there, when he created
them. Obviously there have been migrations of people and much intermarriages through the ages, as well, but in the case of the Indians of North America, there's no simularity between them and any other
people. The Australian Aboriginie, is also another classical example here too.
But for you people who still believe that people change/evolve due to environment, so drastically, and leave
God out of the picture, then I'll tell you that, there are none so blind, that WILL not see!
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Yes God created anything , the imbeciles first of all .
U bet venetic there are quite a few hanging around
with all regards. i do not know what the pictures presented in your blog are to prove . Nonethless, they certainly are not reliable as a proof of anything as the pictures you are presenting were made in different enlightement and some of them are affectedby the profesional photographic studio effects, and if you would like to compare such states of human skin you would have to use pictures made in the same enviroment, in natural enlightement and with the same photographic equipment .
your sincerely
Michal Zochowski
This is in regards to Mr. Zochowski's comment because he is obviously a duche bag. He has no argument. Despite "the different environments" of the photographs, the fact remains that people can infact darken in the sunlight. Good job trying to be all intellectual you butt plug. certain people can tan, you know, cause of melanin, what else do you need to prove?? Good luck tying to find a girlfriend.
Sincerely,
Tommy Welhem
Wow, this is very interesting stuff. I dont know why that guy is defending that people did not mix. (he will never admit it I suppose) Why? Only god knows.
But yeah interesting stuff the DNA makeup did not change from the middle east to Italy. I also like the pictures. Hopfully the person can get more pictures. This guy is pretty financial huh? he he
If people all looked the same the world would suck!
Who really cares if people mix? Does this make them bad people? Does it even matter that some people are darker and some are lighter?
People with racial point of views analise things to death. They are so funny. Regular people just live their life while these people are like what race are you? Where do you come from? What was your mom? What was your dad?
Its like shut up! Dont even worry, live your life relax!
wow that italian girl is very pretty
this is a good web site,u cannot hide the facts this is well documented unfortunaly some racist ignorant bastards who like to believe what they like to believe
We had a nice scientific volley going on before the fourteen year olds and spammers checked in.
When people claim that almost half-europe is not white is because they have a political agenda..and thats the end of this silly discussion.To many people worried by the "whiteness" of southern europeans.We dont need aproval by anyone.Europe is white..and thats some middle-easterners that look like us and not otherwise.Theyre the mixed ones.
First of all religion is science fiction and nothing more, the bible may the best story ever told.
Second what do think of the daughter of Boris Becker in 50 years ? Look at baby fotos of crwon prince Felippe and look at him now, what an amzaing darkening.
Third: For all Racist among us in southern europe still blondes with blue eyes are associated with Nazis.
Fourth:
Take the example spain:
We start with the Iberian population. How they looked nobody knows. One of the first invaders, the feniciens from northern africa. Then celts and romans are invading the country. After the fall of westroman empire the hordes arrived. West-gotes, suebi, gauls and whatever cames from northern and eastern europe. Then they were destroyed by the islamic hordes, except theasturian and cantabrian region. And after the end of reconquista tha last 500 years spain was dominated by a elite called Habsburger and Bourbons and Franco fellowers. But what happend to the origin population of spain. Obviously the did not survive, but the genes are in all spanisch people. And Spain for a southern europe country is quiet complicated. What you can see, is that in the south more darker hair color are common than in the north. So what do you deduce of it ? Are all southern spains arabic and all norhern spanic celts ????
The same absurd discussion you can have about body hair. So hairy people descent more from the apes than others ??? Chinese ind Indians have darker skin but less hairy body , so what ???
And also what we see dominate our judging about the origin of somebody. So if you see somebody looking chinese, and after you talk to her in she says she only speaks french cause she was born there, you have not trust your eyes but your ratio !!!!!
The same with southern european migrated hundred years ago to USA. Nobody there will say to them: Hey you look like you have origin from middle eastern. And do you know why ??? Cause an native americans with orgins in southern europe is classified always white in contrast to native afro-american or american-latino-americans.
And the last point about the blonde super races: May the blond community in northern europe is so tight and close, cause an ancient time maybe till know blondes avoided to marry darker hair coloured people cause it was not conform to the current iedeal of beauty. Just like me i avoid bald headed people cause in my family they didn't exist and i am not used to, so strangely in my circle of friends no bulb head people ( about skin head and other exocit people i am not talking about for sure)
So sageness may be with you.
Ignorant americUnts stop calling southamerican indians from "latinos" the latinos are people from europe i.e the italians the spaniards the portuguese.Jealous bitches envy us.
Racially and genetically Spain today is a mix celt, moor, jewish, fenician, central european, and roman genes. It is interesting because Spaniards dont see racially foreign anyone having the same skin tone or lighter as theirs but they do have a sharp eye for detecting any darker shade than what the darkest tone within Spain is....
In any random crowd you would find people looking nordic and also many looking mediterranean and "moorish" type. Also it is important to keep in mind the gypsies which in Spain have mixed a lot adding also their genes to the whole spaniards genetic make up. Eventhough there are many subraces within in Spain and all equally spanish, there are many things common to all of them as well, as if the years long interbreading with each other without getting foreign genes for many years would have resulted in a subrace on its own. I personally dont find spaniards a good looking race....they grow ugly both men and women, long faces, dry skins and very smelly .... their culture is so cruel and unhuman, they have no soul connection to nature, animals or among themselves...highly materialistic, envious, ignorant, lack of moral, aggresiv, egotic and pretetenders with a big inferior complexity because the know they are far away from what europeans should be like. Land of thieves and corruption at all levels and heartless....oh yes, they are good at something...organs transplants from dead people ....strange they are good at something without cheating...they dont respect any laws or rules ever....
best regards to all and watch your wallet and your organs while in Spain. Comments are welcomed !
Claudia, ouch! That was a bit harsh, talk about making sweeping generalisations...Did one of these Spaniards dump you or something? xD
The work of this site is great.
I have enough of the nordicist who claim they are the owners of culture and civility.
If we talk about southern europeans their minds are working since 3000 years,while nordics lived on tree.
They claim also Leonardo da Vinci,Galileo etc.
what the hell?
It's time to stop their lies once and for all.
Nice information about phenotype..
Italians, spaniards, portuguese, greeks are in majour whites, white mediterraneans, but there are nordics to, in these countries.
Keep it White!
White Race:
Dinarics
Mediteraneans
Nordics
Alpinoids
There should not be a war between white people. Italians, greeks, spaniards, portuguese, german, french, scandinavians, britons, we all have done a good job.
Sieg heil.
I love this site. I just read Arthur kemp's monument to idiocy 'March of the titans'. The mos stupid and bias book about race ever written. So i needed to read something intelligent about race. Great article. I'm greek and i always overhere people and fools who think greek are middleastern. I'm greek descent but i live in more temperate regions and i have green eyes brown hair. I only look tan when in the summer. Quit with your idiosic spamming and putting all random links. Its embarrasing yourlelves. That ois all.
Oh yeah i forgot in my first post that italian chic is HOT!!
Sicilian isn't Italian.
Many Silcilians would be angry that you called them Italians.
Well sorry, mr. anonymous! sicily is in italy, so i call them italians. i didnt mean to offend you
to claudia:
your opinion about spaniards is very bad sure, but what countryes do you like? and what another countryes do you know?.
finally where are you from?.
greetings
Having lived in athens, damascus, and beirut. I can say i dont see much difference between them. Greeks and Syrians have more in common than Greeks and Norweigians. I didnt see all the hook nosed peaple of the near east as the propoganda goes. Saw lots of small and straight noses. The civilised world used to be the Mediterranean world and europe as a cohesive entity didnt exist. North men were barbarians, i say that as a northman too. Western meds look slightly different from eastern meds but thats about it.
Meds used to be the power look. Now cos we live in an ANGLO world everyone wants to have the Northman look.
IRONY.
I think there's a difference between not wanting misinformation/lies told about you and wanting to look like someone else.
If I told German people (and other N. Europeans) that they're really not White but in fact a non-European mixture of their Central Asian Hun conquerors, and the fact that you can find many Central Asians that look German proves their Eurasian-ness, and this was repeated over and over in movies, on the news, and in the 'common knowledge' of the ignorant masses, they probably wouldn't like it very much. They might even seek to correct it and let people know that any similarities in coloring or features are really more a function of adapting to a certain latitude/environment and less about DNA and race mixing.
It doesn't mean that they wish they could look more Italian (and thus look less Central Asian) and be sexier/more powerful/whatever, it just means they want to correct the misinformation. (although some Italians might make that assumption anyway.)
Of course there are exceptions, but most people like the way they and their people look, they just don't like being lied about.
"American Indian, due to looks, must have "come from Asia", whereas in truth, you can argue all you want,"
There's also this little thing called archeological evidence. Such as skeleton morphology. Not to mention DNA.
"God put them there, when he created
them."
And yet, I'm sure you aren't able to find empirical evidence in favor of the God you believe in.
"Obviously there have been migrations of people and much intermarriages through the ages, as well, but in the case of the Indians of North America, there's no simularity between them and any other
people."
And yet, DNA evidence refutes your claims.
"But for you people who still believe that people change/evolve due to environment, so drastically, and leave
God out of the picture, then I'll tell you that, there are none so blind, that WILL not see!"
Yes. We'll stick to a view that is accepted at large by the scientific community rather than a view that is based on a figure whose existence has yet to be empirically demonstrated.
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