COMMENTS
Where are the "caucasoid" affinities that you're talking about RM? A quick glance at what you've posted show no affinities to "Caucasoids" whatsoever. BTW, here's the part of Brace's study you left out:
"An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,”
(Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 19341, but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions. It makes far better sense to regard the adaptively
significant features seen in the Horn of Africa as solely an in situ response
on the part of separate adaptive traits to the selective forces present in the hot dry
tropics of eastern Africa. From the observation that 12,000 years was not a long
enough period of time to produce any noticeable variation in pigment by latitude
in the New World and that 50,000 years has been barely long enough to produce
the beginnings of a gradation in Australia (Brace, 1993a1, one would have to argue
that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile and the East Horn of Africa have been
equatorial for many tens of thousands of years."
Clines and Clusters Versus “Race:” A Test in Ancient
Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile
I guess a "quick glance" wasn't enough. Try taking a long hard look, because the Caucasoid affinities are evident in all of the data presented.
As to the issue of foreign admixture vs. in situ adaptation which I "left out", once again a closer look could have saved you time and embarrassment.
I've taken enough hard looks and the affinities aren't there. I see fudged data thats inconistent with a conclusion of "Caucasoid" affinties. Looking at Tishkoff's plot are populations 15(Micronesians), 18(Atayal) and 20(Chinese) likewise intermediate between "Negroids" and Caucasoids, and likewise have Caucasoid affinities? Don't misrepresent Tishkoff's plot RM, it simply shows a cline from out of Africa with east Africans being intermediate for the simple fact that non-Africans are a subset of Northeast Africans. It doesn't demonstrate "Caucasoid" affinties.
If you want to remain blind to the overwhelming body of evidence, that's your problem. I couldn't care less what you think.
Aethiopids: Between Caucasoids and Negroids
You haven't replied to my answer, you're dodging. Ethiopians are a whole different subject from Somalis so please don't post links to threads created by trolls. Going by your misrepresentation of Tishkoff's plot, are Micronesians, Chinese and Atayal intermediate between Negroids and Caucasoids? Are Chinese intermediate between Ethiopians and Europeans? I'm just demonstrating that your misinterpretation of Tishkoff's plot doesn't support anything you've said.
You call everyone who proves you wrong a troll.
Tishkoff's study finds that Somalis have genetic affinities with non-Africans, and Brace's craniometric data specifies that the non-Africans they're closest to are Caucasoids. Tishkoff also relates Somalis to Ethiopians, whose Caucasoid genetic component has been established irrefutably. Hence, the Caucasoid affinities of Somalis are demonstrated by the posted material.
You call everyone who proves you wrong a troll.
Don't be ignorant RM. The guy who posted that thread is habesha the roll, and no, he's not proving me wrong and neither are you.
Tishkoff's study finds that Somalis have genetic affinities with non-Africans
Wrong, Tishkoff states that Somalis are intermediate between Africans and non-Africans, she states nothing about "affinities", more specifically "racial" affinities. You're basically misrepresenting her study to suit your biased point of view. At any rate, if we use your reasoning that Tishkoff's plot shows "racial affinities", Somalis and Ethiopians show closer "affinities" to Micronesians, Chinese and Ayatal before they do to populations you label as "Caucasoids". Even when your reasoning is used you still end up wrong. I doubt if you read her study through, you simply looked at the plot and gave a wild misintepretation of it.
>>> The guy who posted that thread is habesha the roll, and no, he's not proving me wrong and neither are you.
It really doesn't matter who the poster is. What counts is the research cited in the thread, which is clear, comprehensive and certainly proves you wrong.
>>> Tishkoff states that Somalis are intermediate between Africans and non-Africans, she states nothing about "affinities", more specifically "racial" affinities.
The study establishes that Somalis are genetically distinct from other sub-Saharan Africans and related to mixed Ethiopians. The racial affinities come in with the Brace data, which I notice you keep conveniently ignoring.
It really doesn't matter who the poster is. What counts is the research cited in the thread, which is clear, comprehensive and certainly proves you wrong.
Habesha is a troll and those hodgepodge of graphs, plots and cherry-picked quotes from studies don't prove me wrong and you look bad referencing a thread posted by a 15 year old troll, how great.
The study establishes that Somalis are genetically distinct from other sub-Saharan Africans and related to mixed Ethiopians.
The study doesn't state that based of the locus being used. I can tell you didn't read that study through at all. You used to use it at one time to prove that Somalis and Ethiopians were in termediate due to being mixed before I pointed out to you on egyptsearch that Tishkoff explicitly rejected the admixture hypothesis. The study shows Somalis being closer to Papua New Guineans than to "mixed Ethiopians", that can be seen as plain as day wit two eyes. Despite all of this, Tishkoff's study does *NOT* show any "Caucasoid" affinities for Somalis, nor any "racial" affinities at all.
The racial affinities come in with the Brace data, which I notice you keep conveniently ignoring.
Brace states in his study that East Africans developed their traits in-situ in tropical Africa and not from West Eurasians or "Caucasoids" therefore calling East African indigeous developed traits "Caucasoid affinities" is inaccurate and misleading. Brace stated that these people had to have been equatorial for thousands of years. Equatorial Africa is located within tropical Africa, not Eurasia, Europe or the Middle East, thus East Africans have "tropical African" affinties with a trend towards being Elongated morphometrically.
PS: That kid in the second photo is a Yemeni, not a Somali, for your information.
Unless you can prove that indigenous East African Elongated trend traits originated in West Eurasia[which they did not and the fossil record in East Africa proves this] calling their traits "West Eurasian" affinities is inaccurate and misleading.
Didn't you figure out the first time that BBCode doesn't work here? It's HTML only. Do it right or don't use tags.
The graphs, plots and quotes in that thread are fine. You just badmouth them, and the people who reference them, because you don't like the results. That makes you the troll.
Regardless of whether the admixture model or the in situ model is correct, the fact remains that Somalis are craniofacially closer to Europeans than to sub-Saharan Africans, and Ethiopians are genetically closer to Norwegians than to Bantus. Nothing will ever change that, so I suggest you learn how to deal with it.
The graphs, plots and quotes in that thread are fine. You just badmouth them, and the people who reference them, because you don't like the results. That makes you the troll.
Graphs and plots are nothing without the accompanying text and your misuse of Tishkoff's plot perfectly illustrates my point, so that makes you the troll as well as a distorter.
Regardless of whether the admixture model or the in situ model is correct, the fact remains that Somalis are craniofacially closer to Europeans than to sub-Saharan Africans
None of this changes the fact that Somalis are not Caucasoids, it doesn't change the fact that their traits are indigenous tropical African traits, and it doesn't change the fact that their traits aren't West Eurasian, period.
Ethiopians are genetically closer to Norwegians than to Bantus. Nothing will ever change that, so I suggest you learn how to deal with it.
Lies again, re-read Wilson et al's study. I personally emailed him and this is not the case.
Uh, I included the accompanying text with Tishkoff's plot, moron.
It doesn't matter whether Somalis' traits come from this or that side of the sea. The point is they're shared with Middle Easterners and Europeans, not with sub-Saharan Africans. Period.
62% of Ethiopians have membership in a cluster to which 96% of Norwegians belong. There's no other way to interpret that. I don't care what Wilson said to make you feel better. The data speaks for itself.
Uh, I included the accompanying text with Tishkoff's plot, moron.
You didn't read the entire text, moron, otherwise you wouldn't have said that her plot provs "Caucasoid" affinities for Somalis. Just admit you screwed up big time and only read what you want to read.
It doesn't matter whether Somalis' traits come from this or that side of the sea. The point is they're shared with Middle Easterners and Europeans, not with sub-Saharan Africans. Period.
Somalis are sub-Saharans stupid, and they do share traist with other sub-Saharans, they're just not as close to Gabonese, Teita and Dahomeans stupid, the samples that Brace used. At any rate, Sonmalia and the African Horn is in sub-Saharan Africa, not in Europe and not in the Middle East and their traits evolved in-situ is tropical sub-Saharan Africa so your rambling is irrelevant.
62% of Ethiopians have membership in a cluster to which 96% of Norwegians belong. There's no other way to interpret that. I don't care what Wilson said to make you feel better. The data speaks for itself.
Whatever, I asked Wilson et al for clarification and understanding of *HIS* study, not your misleading interpretation of it. You don't understand how the STRUCTURE program works, maybe you ought to try reading how it does. I guess Ethiopians are 20% East asian too right?
Somalis are similar to non-Africans genetically, and similar to Caucasoids craniometrically.
Ethiopians are 62% Caucasoid with low levels of Asian (6%) and Papuan (8%) admixture.
That's what the data shows. Deal with it.
"Somalis are similar to non-Africans genetically, and similar to Caucasoids craniometrically"
Proof? It doesn't matter about whats more similar because their are indigenous and they are native to sub-Saharan Africa and have nothing to do with Caucasoids so your rambling doesn't matter. Their lineages are sub-Saharan east African, not non-African, your more similar theory doesn't hold water for non-Africans descend from East Africans, not the other way around. Non-Africans posess a subset of sub-Saharan east African lineages, not the other way around so who's more similar to whom? The child is always more similar to the father, not the other way around.
"Ethiopians are 62% Caucasoid with low levels of Asian (6%) and Papuan (8%) admixture."
Stop misinterpreting Wilson et al's study you idiot, he stated that and Ethiopians never mixed with East Asians nor New Guineans, if you read Tishkoff's study all the way through you would know that Papuans and some East Asians possess ancestral lineages that are found in Africa and no place else in the world. Its truly amazing how stupid you are with your distortions of the facts. I communicated directly with Wilson et al so if I'm wrong email him and post your reply.
Point blank, Ethiopians and Somalis are closer to other sub-Saharans than West Eurasians and Europeans are, nothing changes this fact so deal with.
Hi guys, interesting topic, i myself is Somalia, i have been researching our Genetic history and 100% facts rather than trying to be traiter or whatever, as we somalis are already proud. I have tried to research first somali and Caucasian mix people,ethiopian and Caucasian mix, Sub-Saharan African and Causian Mix.
Somalis have remained largely homogenous for millenia because of their strict marriage practices. There are hundreds of different tribes in Somalia. Somalis almost never marry outside of their individual tribe, much less outside of their race. This has been going on for thousands of years, and is still the norm today. You will hardly find Somalis who are married outside of their race. However, in the cases where Somalis do marry outside of their race, their offspring lose almost all of their resemblance to Somalis. This is the case with other Cushitic people such as Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Oromos. The Cushitic resemblance is weak in the offspring no matter which race the other parent is. while study has proved that admixture of Ethiopian, Eritrean and Caucasian Becomes pure Asian.
while Somalian Admixture with Caucasian is more like pure Caucasian in French, Spanish.
while Sub-saharan Mixed with white people still has features of their ROOTS like kinky hair, Big flat Nose and huge Muscles, almost like Tubby shape.
Here are some examples of pictures:
http://www.libertyforum.org/show...part=1&vc=1&
t=0
so what u get from my study?
The webmaster is right on all counts. Ethiopians and Somalis are clearly a race apart from blacks, as the many studies he has quoted prove.
There is no mistaking what Tishkoff means when she states in her study that "the northeastern-African -- that is, the Ethiopian and Somali -- populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations".
Here's what she told Science Daily in an interview:
"The diversity of groups in Ethiopia and Somalia is intermediate between that of the rest of Africa and the rest of the world... Perhaps this group was isolated from the rest of the African continent before they migrated into the Middle East and Europe."
Read the full article here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/
rele...90125073157.htm
Hiernaux's so-called "elongated African" thesis has also been thoroughly discredited. The limb elongation he observed in Horners and neighboring Nilotes is not due to shared racial ancestry as he posited, but is purely an adaptive response to living in a tropical environment.
Brace states this point blank in his "Clines and Clusters" paper:
"The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Because heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature, namely, skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as Equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada in Upper Egypt are reported to be "super-Negroid", meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans. It would be just as accurate to call them "super-Veddoid" or "super-Carpentarian" because skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term "super-tropical" would be better, as it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more "racially loaded" term "Negroid"".
I am sorry we Somalians are not white people. We have E3b but our brothers to the west have e3a. PN2 sub clade links us together.
Some white people may have the same genes as Somali. We knows thats because the Moors went through Europe.
Many of our African brothers from the horn of Africa moved into Europe and Arabia mixing our genes with them. That is why some Europeans share certain genes with us...
Trust me the average Somali doesn't see himself as a white man. We are black and African, and yes, we our proud of our black brother Obama
I live in an African community in New York. I notice many Fulani people in New York look like my people back in Somali...
I know Fulani are mainly e3a, but with the logic Fulani are Caucasians that would make Fulanis white also.
What people fail to see is Africans have been going to Europe mixing their seed.
We already pointed out Somali, Ethiopia, Nubians etc are pretty homogenous.
Somalis dont have Eurasian mixture. Eurasians are mixed with e3b haplogroup becaue Africans went over to Europe....
Plus when humans migrated out of Africa they either went via east Africa or north Africa.
Some people want to say Somali are Caucasian because of phenotype. That's totally hogwash because Tutsi, Fulani, many other tribes not found in East Africa look like Somali... Are they all Caucasian too ?
Take a look at these Fulani http://www.youtube.com/user/AhavaYah
I am surprised at all these debate. If you ask any Somali except the southern most he will count his family tree up to the original old man who came from Yemen or Middle East and mixed with the original natives. The more you go north the more the people's complexion becomes lighter. And this is true for all countries who border at racial border countries - Sudan Eritrea Ethiopia Somalia Mauritania etc Even Lebonan Turkey etc. This is simple biological evolution where people at the border counries racial uniqueness is diluted. What these anthropologists write is pure theory like the hundreds of new 'studies' that after observing the habits of say 1000 who rcetly died tell us banana eaters may die before non eaters.
Simple answer to the looks of Ethiopins and Somalis is that they are a cross breeding of west Asian immigrants and the Afrcans there and they are more African with West Asian features simply because the West Asian factor was the less numerous.
Somalis are not a mixture of "African" (i.e. code for "black") and Middle Eastern. They along with Ethiopians and Eritreans do indeed form a unique racial group of their own.
All of the latest genetic studies support this, particularly the massive, just-published Tishkoff et al. (2009) paper, which indicates that the Horn of Africa's Cushitic-speaking groups form a unique cluster of their own and are genetically closest to non-Africans.
Tishkoff and her colleagues explain this phenomenon -- which they observed using the new STRUCTURE method of analysis for determining the biological affinities of populations -- with the following statement:
"The Fulani and Cushitic (an eastern Afroasiatic subfamily) AACs [Associated Ancestral Clusters], which likely reflect Saharan African and East African ancestry, respectively, are closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa."
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/co...bstract/
1172257
So... those guys who atacked our ships were whites? LOL actually i thought it was an intresting topic keep up the good work!
Also i found it hilarious the somali guy said 'we are proud of are black brother obama' when mr. obama is in fact, mixed. NICE WORK, 'SOMALI'
FROM:
Somali | 01.29.09 - 9:15 pm
"Some people want to say Somali are Caucasian because of phenotype. That's totally hogwash because Tutsi, Fulani, many other tribes not found in East Africa look like Somali... Are they all Caucasian too ?"
Fulani have Caucasian admixture.
According to:
Cerny et al (2006) "MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations"
8.1% of Fulani mtDNA is Caucasian.
As for Y-DNA:
According to
Hassan et al (200
"Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History"
"[Y-chromosome] haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group."
Out of 26 Fulani tested, 14(54%) had R1.
The Fulani beleive they are related to Tuaregs and Arabs, despise the Negroid populations below them. They call them "hyenas, apes, and asses"
They are against intermarriage with them.
Sound pretty "Black" to me...
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