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COMMENTS

How the hell is belgium darker then leon spain?
Craig | 04.14.06 - 12:56 am | #

Castillian-Leonese (North/Central Spain) people are hardly \"dark\". And it's only like one point difference anyway.
Afrocentrist/Nordicist Charlat | 04.17.06 - 5:41 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Thanks. A very helpful table.
Steve Sailer | Homepage | 06.09.06 - 10:34 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I am pretty surprised at how light the Spaniards in the study turned out to be. I am not naive enough to believe that Spaniards are as dark as Latin Americans who are largely of indigeneous stock, but they are no way as light as northern europeans either. I have studied in an international program with many people from Spain and from what I have seen they tend to be at least as dark as Greeks and Italians. I think the sample size for the Spanish population is too small too be meaningful OR there was an error in data collection.
Walt | 01.09.07 - 11:13 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ how the fucking dark kurds can be lighter than turks???many turks have gren or blue eyes in northern turkey.
brigitte | 02.22.07 - 1:33 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ London is probably an exception, but Southern England is generally lighter than Northern England.
I´m missing the data from Senegal, one of the \"darker spots\" of humanity.
Deadman | 03.08.07 - 7:25 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ i would like to know if is scandinavia even lighter than netherlands in terms of skin pigmentation
Rodrigo | 03.31.07 - 5:37 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ of corse ,scandinavians are the lightest population in the world.and as everybody knows there s no way that spanish ppl are lighter than english.spanish is as dark as italy greece and turkey.and at last there s no way that kurds are lighter than turks ,more darker then em...
hoak | 08.03.07 - 4:28 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Spaniards arent dark like greeks or turks clueless fool.
DisneyWasSpanish | 08.18.07 - 10:32 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Spain is invaded by arabs and native southamericans and gypsies the brown people u see in spain arent people from spain.
DisneyWasSpanish | 09.28.07 - 7:45 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Interesting table.

It's very slippery (and hard) to distinguish the influence of even contemporary attitudes (as well as discriminations) in culture and politics from academic science, from corporate science, from et al ....in most human perspectives.

For example, this table uses the table subdivision / supposedly neutral and reasonably accurate \"geographical\" subdivision \"SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA\".

Today that term is widely recognized by those who examine the subject as a \"polite\" (!) racist way of saying in public discourse 'Black' as in 'Negroid' Africans, not the 'other' Africans. If one travels through Africa (North to South) or examines geographers (climate, land cultivation, etc) one discovers the appellation \"SUB-SAHARAN\" is as SCIENTIFICALLY valid today (sorry for the capital letters, no bolding available) as the notion of \"Race\" (non-existent as a scientific term or biological (genetic) one). They are, both, however sociopolitical and cultural terms.

Just an observation on the presumably unconscious and insidious use of supposedly neutral and clear terms which are also freighting along with their evident surface meanings all kinds of other (usually hidden) perspectives and emotional baggage.
Kyle Manjaro | 01.30.08 - 4:34 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Many people have expressed the view that the data in this table are contrary to fact. It is important to note that they are misreading this table as a chart of relative lightness/darkness of people's complexion. This chart in fact is quite accurately labelled a \"reflectance\" chart. And it specifically specifies that reflectance was measured only at 685nm (which describes dark red light). As such, it measures complexion only along a single linear scale. Linear scales only characterize 1 dimension of variance in data. Yet human the color component of human complexion is more than 1-dimensional (consider the old practice of characterizing skin color into white, black, olive, yellow, and red tones). Likewise, darkness is a simplistic 1D scale and a entirely different one than relectance. Thus the observation that this chart does not reflect the relative darkness of people's complexion is both correct and in no way an indication of error. What I find more curious about the chart is the decision to measure reflectance using red light. It has been rather conclusively demonstrated by Jablonski & Chaplin that differential UV exposure of traditional (indigenous versus transplanted) human populations is the origin of the variation in darkness of complexion (owing to 2 competing considerations, darkness protects skin from UV degradation of cellular reproduction mechanisms, but inhibits UV absorption necessary for vitamin D3 production essential to bone health). UV is at the opposite end of the visual spectrum from dark red. Human coloration variation is primarily a product of melanin, which comes in two types: pheomelanin (red) and eumelanin (dark brown). It seems to me that eumelanin is the far more significant factor in the variation of darkness of complexions. Yet red light reflectance metrics are likely to emphasize pheomelanin level differentials. Ultimately, UV reflectance (if differences in dark red and UV relectance trends exist) is more likely to be probative, since it is directly related to the causal force driving the darkness of a traditional population's complexion. Of course, it may be that melanins operates as broad band filters, trending the same across the whole visual spectrum and making the color of light used in reflectance studies immaterial.
gregg | 03.14.08 - 9:53 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ It should also be noted that skin reflectance studies are performed on unexposed parts of the body, whereas impressions of strangers' complexions are formed in consideration of the exposed portions of their body. The difference in darkness between exposed and unexposed body parts can be as much at 10x according to the literature. It is also important to note that exposed body parts are presumably subject to greater variation in darkness within a locale than unexposed body parts, since different members of the population spend differing amounts of time in the sun. In all societies lawyers are going to be paler than agricultural workers for example, even among siblings.
gregg | 03.14.08 - 10:02 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ spanish people are very dark in european population not because of gypsy and arabian mixture but because of the high sunlight in the geugraphy ,less precipitation in summer and high elevations among country.They are as dark as turks and greeks.Maybe a little more...If there are light spanish people groups be sure that they have descended from northern human populations of europe.By the way greece=turkey in skin reflectance.except in northern turkey therer are very light people because of high precipitation in summer and not being that south..at 42 th paralllell.berlin is at 50th*.not a big difference.
hoak | 05.05.08 - 1:43 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ and and and please look at the original version of the article here
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/..._color_2000.pdf

you ll see that i am right.spanish are darker than turkish...hehe as i said..
hoak | 05.05.08 - 1:54 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Hoak.

You cant deny the facts.Look at the list.

We spaniards are whiter than italians,greeks,turks,portuguese.

Dont forget this country was invaded by millions of celts.
Apo | 05.17.08 - 6:51 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Turkey:Turkey
59•15

Spain

Spain (Leon)
64•66

Its obvoiuos to me.

Turks are more akin to west asia and north africa than to europe.
Apo | 05.17.08 - 6:58 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ \"... west asia and north africa than to europe.\"

North Africa? Studied history lately? And where does that put the greeks, italians, and portuguese as far as skin color then?

I have to agree with hoak. I don't know who carried out this research but there is NOOOOOOO way that Kurds have lighter skin than Turks so hoak is right when he says, \"and at last there s no way that kurds are lighter than turks ,more darker then em...\"

Whoever carried out this researcher either (probably) has Turks as too dark or Kurds as too light. That or they used poor samples.
Adem | 05.19.08 - 1:14 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ dude if you want further and more detailed research whick shows that spanish are darker than all europe and turks is in the longer form of this article asi said before.in most of research spanishseems to be darker.only one or two one they seem lighter and that one is put on this blog which is incorrect.
look up
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/ ..._color_2000.pdf
hoak | 06.05.08 - 12:28 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Hoax,

Only an idiot would suggest Spaniards are darker than Turks. To suggest they are darker than Greeks and Italians still is unrealistic, but at least is not absurd. The \"longer form\" of the article you posted displays the same numbers posted by the blogger, you idiot:

Skin reflectance in Spaniards varies between 64,5 and 65,7% of total reflectance of the light, while in Turks it is only 59%. The data in the study are completely consistent with very recent genetic studies which put Italians and Greeks in a separate cluster from Central and Northern Europeans, whilst Spaniards stand amongst the two clusters.

The Appendix section indicates where the divulged data came from: results from the Turks came from two samples published in a single study, and variability was very low between the samples: the skin reflectance varied between 59% and 59,3%.

Data from Spaniards (León) were derived from 5 samples published in a single study, and the reflectance values varied between 62,7% to 66,1%; for the Spaniard Basques (considered amongst Iberians to be particularly light in pigmentation), the results (which wre derived in one separate study) varied from 62,3% to 66,4% in other five samples. Thus three separate studies, drawing data from 12 samples (10 made up of Leonese Spaniards, 10 of Basque Spaniards, and 2 of Turks), indicate Spaniards to be significantly lighter than Turks and similar to other Europeans.

You're clearly a non-natve speaker of English language. I presume you're probably from Turkey or Lebanon, thus you bias. I can recognize that the results from Spaniards might be skewed to the light end of pigmentation because only northern Spaniards were considered.

However, genetic and phenotypic characteristics and differences are highly correlated with geographic distance. Since nobody regards France to be a \"dark country\", it would be really surprising to verify that her neighbor Spain is a particularly dark nation, and since Turkey has as its closest neighbors populations with Semitic ancestry, it would, again, be very weird if it was shown that they are as light as European populations, even those from Italy and the Balkans. The results from Turks are very similar to those from the Lebanese and the Israeli, thus being completely congruent that those peoples are geographically close, and likely reflect the reality.
Daniela | 06.29.08 - 2:37 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ How could the people in the UK be the same colour as Iraqis? Looking at the two I'd guess there's about 20 shades difference in skin tone between them. I wouldn't be surprised if an Iraqi did the study.
EB | 09.01.08 - 9:12 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ 'EB' there are millions of light skinned Iraqis. Northern Iraqis who are largely Kurdish and Assyrian are easily as light as the study states. Iraqis are not one homogenous group with the same skin colour, there are blue eyed and blond haired Iraqis, my Iraqi grandfather had blond hair.
Damascus Protocol | 10.11.08 - 11:07 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ do you guys really argue about to who is more white?
you are pathetic.
.. | 10.21.08 - 1:30 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I see what I believe, Spanish people are generally as dark as Italians or Greeks. Turks are also of a closer skin colour to the European side rather than Lebanon or Israel although both countries do have quite pale people.
Devanizmo | 11.14.08 - 11:20 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Most of the people here act like they've never been to Europe, or at least haven't spent significant time there. As if \"Italians\" were all the same complexion. (There probably isn't another European country with a greater span of complexions!) Sorry, but complexion doesn't follow the land borders we decided to draw later. For example, northern Italians look like the Swiss and French. But most Americans don't understand how arbitrary these borders are culturally (language too!) because of the history of their young country.

Anyway, listen to gregg--at least he's making a point about the science.
CB | 12.09.08 - 4:46 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Funny how so many people are surprised at the light skin of some northern Spaniards? Why did you expect, a Banderas shade?

First, the study took Basques and Leonese, both in northern Spain, in areas where the weather is rather Atlantic than Mediterranean.

2, the study is about 'unexposed' skin. If the samples went to sunbathe in summer, you'd see the big contrast with the parts that remained covered.

3, there are no real northern tones to be compared with, except perhaps the Dutch. British and Belgians are central Atlantic.

Finally, it's about skin tone, not hair or eye color. In most of Spain, hair and color are commonly any kind of brown, but the skintone is usually medium or pale, not as dark as in southern Italy or parts of Greece. Obviously one can find many exceptions, and recent immigration may change it in the future.
Buc | 01.20.09 - 10:12 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Funny how many of you were expecting spaniards to be dark. I assume most of those were american who assume a spaniard and a mexican etback are of the same ethnic goup. And the reason iraq is so light is because they looking at kurds, who are of aryan/persian stock not the semitic iraqis you are thiunking of.
Will A. | 04.07.09 - 3:08 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ To go a bit further on this, go to Spain's neighbor, Portugal, and you will see many Portuguese who are quite light, particularly in Northern and Central Portugal. The country is heavily Celtic in heritage and mostly Atlantic in climate (geographically it is ALL Atlantic). On average, Portuguese are lighter than Greeks, Italians and southern French and no darker than Spaniards.

Uninformed people seem to just go by stereotypes which, in many cases, are terribly wrong. Just because you have dark hair and eyes doesn't mean you have dark skin too.
Cambria Red | 06.28.09 - 5:55 am | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ I'm amazed that in this day and age you still have plenty of stupid people clinging to these ridiculous Anglo based stereotypes about the Spanish people(not mixed blood Hispanics) in light of the scientific evidence to the contrary. The above skin paleness data corresponds to the latest genetic evidence that has proven that the Spanish people are descended from the R1b haplogroup, the most common genotype in Western Europe. In other words, Spaniards really are White people, thus contradicting all these stupid Anglo Nordicist theories that is largely spread by slimy English historians.
Stefan Zeiss | 08.01.09 - 8:22 pm | #

$\"Gravatar\"$ Wow!!

People in 2009, think that Spaniards are not white as north Europe population...

Brothers, you need to travel more.

Spaniards are whites, very, very, very whites... other thing are the inmigrants... but Ibers are the first proto-european people... so... they're white? Sure.

Travel a little.
Isma | 08.23.09 - 2:49 pm | #

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