At a parent-teacher meeting last week, the rabbi of my son's nursery school said, "Children don't want to be different, children want to belong".

I think this is a useful, and true, way of looking at it (i.e. saying "belong" instead of "conform") it reveals that the desire to conform is not wholly negative, and that it comes from a value (like it or not) that is psychologically very important to most of us. We should work with it, not against it.

Shabina Begum was a tool of the Hizb ut-Tahrir, according to some sources. Her older brother, who was her guardian, was behind it, and the whole thing got a lot of attention because the Guardian journalist who wrote about it was also a member of the Hizb ut-Tahrir. She won in court even though her brother spoke for her. Of course the lawyer who defended her was the wife of the prime minister, which couldn't have hurt either, but certainly raised a lot of questions in hindsight. We are all tools, I suppose.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/ main...in_the.php#more

children want to belong

the key is, to what? one must be a stranger in a strange land before one can become a native. speaking as a grizzled old veteran of a 1980s pre-multiculturalist childhood the colored immigrant youth of today are coddled in their ethnic cocoons and their unique 'heritage' is cherished and nurtured. this is no way to shape roarks who will go out and rape the world.

the key is, to what?

Yes, that is the key. I was making what I think is a statement of fact, not a value judgment. My value judgment comes when (if people feel like they don't "belong" and try to solve their problem) I don't like their solution.

Sex and Money are great levelers. People want to conform to the best power structure around, as cheaply as possible.

When being part of an insular ethnic "society" means being broke or sexually frustrated, people will choose society at large. Maybe not overnight, but sooner or later.

Immigration and ethnic minority status is not new to the modern experience. The nation states of the world are filled with the descendants of once-inimical tribes and ethnic groups, who eventually barried their hatchets and had sex and worked together. The exceptions prove the rule.

IMO, what might seem a horrible, impossible situation of ethnic/racial tension to one person might, from an historical view, seem a remarkably smooth process of integration.

"is that the only men that should see women are their closest male relations and their husband."

You can say that again. I heard stories from Abu Dhabi contract workers that a wife gets to be passed among the other relative males who cant afford to buy a wife.

I think wearing that shroud is of basic survival skills.
Women in Islam are more revered and respected if wearing the veil and Islam boys, sexually hungry as they are would attack women who are not wearing a veil.

I think the European boys should teach those veil-wearing girls a lesson that that stupid shroud is not superman's cape. To keep Europe as Europe, protect their own European non-Islam women, those veil-wearing girls should be taught to play the field evenly.
The non-Islam European women AND Islam women should be kept from wearing the hijab to keep Islam from spreading in Europe.

Immigration and ethnic minority status is not new to the modern experience. The nation states of the world are filled with the descendants of once-inimical tribes and ethnic groups, who eventually barried their hatchets and had sex and worked together. The exceptions prove the rule.

IMO, what might seem a horrible, impossible situation of ethnic/racial tension to one person might, from an historical view, seem a remarkably smooth process of integration.

This is an important point, and one lost on the ethnic nationalists.

The sexual receptivity of the women from the host poulation is a key factor in integration.


South Asian males who usually have success with white women in the United States cannot get it going in Southeast Asia, where women are congenitally prjudiced against dark skin, viewing it as a stigmata of lower class origin.

Pismire,

As I mentioned previously, my sister-in-law lives in Australia, is about 5'8", pale complexion, blonde, blue-eyed, former air hostess (AFAIK), and married a South Asian, 5'6", very dark almost black complexion, black hair and dark brown eyes, medical doctor.

They have 2 adorable children, which I saw photographs of when last in Ireland. Their son, who is 19 or so, was pictured surfing, and looks to have a deep tan, light brown eyes, wavy brown hair, 5' 10" - in fact looks the typical surfer dude, one would find in Australia or California. If I didn't know better, I would guess he was Greek or some Meditteranean type.
This race mixing, it's a beautiful thing!

where women are congenitally prjudiced against dark skin, viewing it as a stigmata of lower class origin.

though he doesn't publicize it, it is known that mahathir mohammed's (former PM of malaysia for the past 25 years) father was a tamil muslim.

Liv,
The woman is allowed to see her close relatives and not the close relatives of her husband. I think you got that confused.
Also could you please cite a link for your Abu Dhabi story.

"South Asian males who usually have success with white women in the United States cannot get it going in Southeast Asia, where women are congenitally prjudiced against dark skin, viewing it as a stigmata of lower class origin".

This is so true. South Asians are almost universally shunned by local women in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong.

Speaking of social anomie, have you seen today's headline about a Belgian suicide bomber, who happens to be female:

excerpt:
The paper says she is Muriel Degauque, 38, from Charleroi, who converted to Islam after marrying a radical Muslim.
Degauque's mother Liliane told the paper that she knew her daughter had been involved before police told her she had carried out the attack on 9 November.
"She became more Muslim than Muslim," said Mrs Degauque. "When she first converted, she wore a simple veil. That was not so far from normal, even if it is strange for a Belgian. But with her last husband she wore a chador [Islamic dress covering women from head to toe]."
Her daughter - believed to be the first female European bomber in Iraq - later travelled through Syria to Iraq, where she died in a failed attack against US troops on 9 November, the paper said.

Al Mujahid, you're the one whose confused. It was sarcasm.
Reread my post, no link, real stories from contract workers coming home from Abu Dhabi.

What are you, a third grader who cant understand English? I bet you're AG, the same AG who copies her "scientific" answers from the internet. LOL.

Ask any contract worker in Arab countries, they would tell you that you should never meddle with Islam ways. Or their court will behead you.

Liv, I still have no idea what joke or point you intended to convey.

Now, maybe I am a third grader too, but at some point if enough people don't get it is not the fault of the readers...

liv, watch the personal attacks. AM's question was in good faith, no matter if he mistook your tone or intent. also, FYI he isn't "AG."

Don't shoot the messenger.

Just because its not on the internet, it doesnt mean its not happening. Just figure it out, the poor men who cant buy a wife, probably because women are so scarce, due to the polygamous elders, what can they do? There are no prostitutes. So a man buys one wife, share her with his brothers and father too. It happens, sometimes they used donkeys too. And male contract workers. There is a big difference between moslem Europeans and moslems in arab countries. Now there is still a big difference because not every woman is wearing a shroud yet in Europe. Just wait and see. In Arab countries, you can't even read a bible in public, nor display one.

My apologies to AM. Work stress. I work with ex-military guys, I perfected snapping at and hating men. Really sorry. :)