One of the most interesting accounts I've read about the nature of spreading fanatacism is from Tahir Shah's "Caliph's House."

The book, if you have heard of it, has almost nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism. Shah is actually just a brilliant travel writer describing a particularly challenging relocation from the UK to Morocco.

However, there are some memorable snippets showing the difference between the local Muslims in that country and the extremists immigrating there. He also describes the conversion of someone who becomes a fanatic (I won't give away the details, but it made my mouth drop open.)

It may be educational, in any case, to read a first hand account of how this ideology may be spreading, in the context of a traditionally peaceful Muslim culture, and compare it to a broader macro-analysis.

The book itself is fantastic, IMHO.

This is the first time I've heard of Lebanese Christian suicide bombers.

The Salafi link was dubious from the start. It's a result of political commentators who were too eager to seperate the 'good islam' from the bad.

I think the author needs to be more careful about 'Communist/ Socialist groups'. In highly religious thrid world countries, they usually have a religious tinge to them (like Fatah in the West Bank).

As far as terrorists go the Tamil Tigers are in a class of their own, they even have their own airforce.

I've read Pape and a lot of related Iraq-Middle East literature. I think Pape's work has many implications for our current (bad) policy.

But do you want to get into this on gnxp, Razib?

But do you want to get into this on gnxp, Razib?

*shrug* mebee nationbuilding. i can always delete the droolers though. or hold them up for ridicule, they are surprisingly sensitive. my interest is less in policy prescriptions than in sound starting assumptions of fact. i think pape's work can be used to support a variety of foreign policy programs depending on what your norms & values are.

Pape emphasizes most his conclusion that individuals are not motivated enough to become *suicide* bombers unless they fear or experience occupation of their native lands.

His idea is that this level of desperation is aroused only by the humiliation and existential threat of invasion and occupation. He buttresses his case with examples of suicide attacks in several non-Muslim cultures.

While Osama et. al. may be committed, they won't be able to get large numbers of suicidal adherents if we get our military out of Muslim countries. He advocates an off-shore policy.

So Muslims will wage non-suicide war (e.g. IEDs) against the US if they don't like us for various reasons; but they will use their most effective weapon, suicide attacks, only if we are occupying their lands.

For Israelis the implication is that the settlements and occupation of the territories is what has provoked suicide bombing; and that if they got out of the settlements they could get a peace treaty which would substantially eliminate military occupation also; and all would be well.

This is not quite the powerful result that Pape seems to claim, because Muslims are developing excellent non-suicide weapons as we keep provoking them. Still, the most recent, UK airline attacks, were to be suicide attacks.

I've heard Pape speak. He is a technocrat, not an ideologue for any side. Do you agree with these points from your reading of his book?

Do you agree with these points from your reading of his book?

the data is compelling. if i had to bet $$$, i would say i'll stand with pape if i had to do it now. but i need to take a closer look at his data.

I think the author needs to be more careful about 'Communist/ Socialist groups'. In highly religious thrid world countries, they usually have a religious tinge to them (like Fatah in the West Bank).

The modern manifestations of Palestinian terrorist organizations, such as Fatah/PLO and the PFLP, definitely have a religious tinge to them, but back in the early 80s, during the period which Pape is discussing, they were generally secular organizations espousing pan-Arab or Communist ideology, or a mixture of the two.

My theory of suicide bombers is that they're mostly high achievers whose families expect a lot of them, but whose lives and careers have deadended so that they have no way of satisfying the families who hocked the family farm to send them to school.

This is based on my general understanding of motivation and a lot of casual information. I've never seem it refuted or confirmed, but it fits with most of what I've seen. I'd like to see it discussed.

My theory of suicide bombers is that they're mostly high achievers whose families expect a lot of them, but whose lives and careers have deadended so that they have no way of satisfying the families who hocked the family farm to send them to school.

1) yes, higher achievers

2) hmm. not really. there are issues with unsatisfaction, but it isn't as banal as that. the general impression from pape's (and others) data is that their prospects are relatively bright. the short answer is that they don't fit the normal psychological pattern of your typical suicide. they have hope, optimism. some exceptions like the chechen widows.

but read pape's book...i am not sure if i'm understanding you/answering the question. just look up the chapter on suicide profiles.

hmmm...i somewhat agree with pape.
but he needs more cultural anthropology.
i see little correlation with facism or nazism, suicide bombers are far more like ghost dancers or cargo cultists. The Salafis are definitely millenialists. The fundamentalists all authenticate thru their scriptures. i do agree with occupation as incentive-- both the ghost dancers and the cargo cultists wanted western culture out of their lands. Neither was terribly successful with their goals.
Unfortunately now, thanx to the flattening of technology, the fundamentalists do have access to the modern analog of Wovoka's steam locomotive full of winchesters, in suitcase nukes, flying jet fuel bombs, and possible bio agents.

and, on suicide bombers as citizens, this eteraz post is good.
Muslim Musings on British Muslims

i will reprint my comment on why young, well-educated, affluent british muslim citizens might attack their host culture, since pape's hypoth would not apply for 1st or 2nd gen muslims.

this is 'zactly like the stalker-geek microsoft employee that buys a semi-automatic and caps the the chick that wouldn't date him and six of her coworkers at lunch. Islam micht be the clothes, but western culture is the chick that dissed them.

The interesting thing about suicide bombing in the Mid East is that the trend was started by the Japanese Red Army.

jack black ben stiller jack black ben stiller jack black ben stiller // construction defect insurance construction defect insurance construction defect insurance