"In Indonesia pagan groups often redefine themselves as Hindu, and so enter into a relationship with the institutional structures of Balinese Hinduism."

Yes, but another way of looking at is the central government requires people to belong to one of the six recognised religions and 'animism' and god forbid 'paganism' aren't one of them. In Central Borneo there is a bit of agitation on the part of some Dayaks for example to have their beliefs properly recognised, which is a way of them saying they don't want to declare as Hindu I guess.

patung, i know. but this is just changing the magnitude of the vector. pancasila accelerates and forces a change that would have happened anyway. the only way a complex society can preserve an indigenous paganism is by engaging in complementation, as is the case with shinto in japan(complemented in its role with buddhism). it isn't as if the the dayak of sarawak remain staunchly pagan, right?

Right there are muslim pagan dayaks and christian pagan dayaks and then some who try to reject the 'outside' elements entirely and i agree in indonesia animism is done for, pancasila yes, and the liquidation of the communist party and the terrorising of the animist and pseudo muslim javanese peasantry, switching it to java (there's a 'great' anecdote about this - a javanese guy about to get his head hacked off for being a 'communist' says to his would be killer who was probably his neighbour or someone - "make sure my son learns to read the quran")

Back to the Hindus, new book out called "A Shadow Falls" by a british anthropologist, you might like, on the eastern tip of Java which was a century ago or more still Hindu in places - it sure as hell isn't now. Hinduism itself is done for in Indonesia longer term, the Balinese have low fertility and they're lazy shits so there's always migration there looking for work, and there are other reasons, the pulverising, withering muslim religiosity of popular culture especially tv.

Also around in east Java the last Hindu holdouts on Mt Bromo are gradually losing out, did a post there - Bromo Tengger Converts to Islam, although people I talk to tell me some of them are going over to christianity, particularly to Bethany which is an evangelical church which in surabaya i associate with rich or very aspirational chinese, evidently my impression is not entirely accurate.

tx for the book rec. didn't know that conversion attempts around tengger were working.

Didn't see this before sorry

In Indonesia there has been a marginal decrease in the proportion of Muslims since the 1960s, probably because of the conversion of nominal Javanese Muslims to Christianity and Hinduism (Hinduism is considered by many Javanese to be their ancestral religion, and there remain Hindu Javanese minorities).

Most nominal javanese muslims converted to Islam, don't mean to be rude but duh, yes some converted to christianity and some to hinduism but most to Islam. Like I said I think hinduism is done for, happy to be wrong though.

A when someone asked a Prominent Kalash, "Are you Greek?" He responded "The Greek Government gives us money to say we are Greek. So, we are Greek!"

The Kalash Pantheon resembles the Hindu more so than the ancient Greek but their attitude towards female sexuality would make some blush and earns them the contempt of their Muslim neighbors.

Are these the same pagans as in "The Man Who Would Be King?"

steve, basically. though those were probably the people of nuristan right across the border, who were forced to convert. these are very closely related groups just on the other side of the border.

Kalash are a very interesting subject. I've seen many pictures of the Kalash over the years. Many of them are of a very pink complexion, othrs with fair hair and eyes of striking color. But, all in all, I've personally found the Kalash to physically resemble Pakhtuns and Tadzhik very much.

I'm curious --- being an isolate, just how close are the Kalash genetically to the Pakhtun/Pashtun, Ghaljis and Tadzhik?

I'm curious --- being an isolate, just how close are the Kalash genetically to the Pakhtun/Pashtun, Ghaljis and Tadzhik?

not very. not what you'd expect from the physical similarities at least. i think the issue is just that they're a small isolate which has "random walked" into a new direction, and done so without equilibration occurring via gene flow from the more numerous pathans. a good contrast are the brahui, who are muslims who live among the baloch, but speak a dravidian language. but genetically they're similar to the baloch, because the two groups have intermarried for a long time. i think an analogy with iceland is appropriate; icleanders have gone in their own direction somewhat because they're isolated. i suspect that the kalash were even more isolated than icelanders, i presume that random scandinavians moved to iceland on rare occasions since the founding. in the case of the kalash i find it implausible that muslims would have married into them, in part because kalash hostility to muslims was one reason they persevered. OTOH, if you are a muslim fugitive going to live among, and become kalash, would probably be a way to get outside of networks which could bring you to justice.

I wonder how often this has happened across Asia. Could this have been the fate of the Tocharians?

I wonder how often this has happened across Asia. Could this have been the fate of the Tocharians?

what do you mean?

I could be wrong, but I believe that the Tocharians were a Caucasoid group that spread across Asia and spoke the Indo-European language Tocharian and some have associated them with the Tarim mummies and with the early spread of Buddhism out of India. They're gone now, I figured through mixture of Turkic groups (like the recent Uigurs), but I wonder if the Tocharian culture and language drifted away in this manner.

Actually, perhaps the Kashars (as they aren't really Greek) are descended from the same group.

They're gone now, I figured through mixture of Turkic groups (like the recent Uigurs), but I wonder if the Tocharian culture and language drifted away in this manner.

they're almost certainly the "west eurasian" component of the uyghur ancestry, which is on the order of 50-60%. the cities of the tarim basin were not nearly as isolated, on the contrary, they were transit points along the silk road.

Actually, perhaps the Kashars (as they aren't really Greek) are descended from the same group.

the kalash speak a language which is dardic. this group is somewhat closer to indo-aryan than it is to iranian last i checked. so linguistically they are surely not (tocharian's relationship is confused, but it is almost certainly not very closely related to indo-iranian, period). ancient peoples can survive in isolated enclaves. e.g., sogdian -> yaghnobi.

very interesting, thanks

In 1895, the british allowed the Afghan sultan to forcibly convert the nuristani kafirs ( related to kalaksh kafirs ) to islam

Razib's observations lead to the grim conclusion,
that all non-muslims be evacuated pronto from darul-islam

The non-PC question needs to be asked
- how about reciprocal treatment for followers of islam in kafir countries as a preventative measure

Another group that found a refuge in Xinjiang was the Manicheans. When they came to C. Asia from Persia (driven out by Islam) they had a Old Persian liturgy. Later the liturgy became Sogdian, and later still, Turkish. As I remember, there was no big population shift, migration, invasion, etc. Persian was a foreign language and was gradually replaced by the local language, and as time passed the local bilingualism shifted from Sogdian dominant to Turkish dominant.

A nineteenth-century survival that people still need to extirpate is the idea of one gene pool (race) / one language / one nation (culture) / one state / one homeland. These mappins don't usually coincide and the wish that they would has led to murderous politics. .

When they came to C. Asia from Persia (driven out by Islam) they had a Old Persian liturgy. Later the liturgy became Sogdian, and later still, Turkish. As I remember, there was no big population shift, migration, invasion, etc. Persian was a foreign language and was gradually replaced by the local language, and as time passed the local bilingualism shifted from Sogdian dominant to Turkish dominant.

1) i thought the manichaeans were persecuted by the zoroastrian priesthood under the sassanids (i just read a history of the sassanid empire and that is what it says).

2) i have read that manichaeanism seems to have survived in china itself (after the collapse of the uyghur empire, and the conversion of the peoples of the tarim basin to islam, and to a lesser extent buddhism in the east) into the mongol and perhaps early ming period.

how about reciprocal treatment for followers of islam in kafir countries as a preventative measure

Yeah, more than any other religion Islam is a disaster for mankind, however falling for schismogenesis usually makes things worse.

Razib, what was the name of that history of the sassanid empire? Also, can you suggest any good histories of the old Persian empires?

sasanian iran: portrait of a late antique empire, touraj daryaee. as for the 2nd ?, no. does anyone else?

I believe that thje big Manicheean flight was in Muslim times, but now I'm not sure.

Manicheean religion did survive in China until Marco Polo's time, at least, and a few local temples have some recognizably Manicheean ritual and iconography even today.

The theologies and practices of Buddhism and Manicheeanism had things in common, and both religions allowed flexibility in adaptation to ambient beliefs, so a lot of Manicheeans probably just merged with Buddhism. But IIRC in the Mongol era they affiliated more with Christianity.

ElamBend

I don't know of a specific history book but if you have an iphone there is a free app for Cyrus the Great by Mohammed Komeili. It is a quick read (warning: sometimes he goes over the the in his praise) but I highly recommend it. Also the end of Plutarch's Alexander deals with Darius' Persia.

Ausgustinian Catholicism IS Manicheanism. The latter won the battle: that bearded old fraud ejaculated his lifeless spasm into the falling acorn cup of the west. It won by Trojan ways. The Cathar heretics were its shadowy clone.

Cyrus the Great? There's an app for that.

sorry, I just find that hilarious and wonderful at the same time.