"at the end of the day, if you're a hardcore geek, the only way you can land a chick with a nice bod is if you go Asian"

Damn, he should have seen the girl I dated for two and a half years. Maybe he's just a loser.

I think the point is that even a white geek can come across as macho to an (east) asian girl, because the threshold is so much lower.

But almost certainly not true that asian women are less submissive. As one chinese girl said to me "my boyfriend is the sky and i am the floor". The acceptance of prostitution and mistresses also indicates that china lies well behind europe in terms of equality.

Asian women still expect the man to take the lead at the beginning of the relationship.

On the other hand european girls know what the want and dont all ways wait for the guy. The all-time winners on this front -- Aussies.

Do you think that the level of infidelity in society would play a part? In other words, if infidelity is a successful strategy for gene propagation, it would make sense for women to be attracted to it.

I've read that dizygotic twinning is inversely correlated with IQ. Northern European nations tend to have higher average IQs than Southern Europeans so I find the fact that they have higher twinning rates interesting.

razib:
Nevertheless, something Kurt said about how East Asian women not having the same attraction to the brusque jerk as other groups made me wonder, is this true?
In Chinese television/movies, the guy/girl relationship is usually portrayed as being initiated by a rather dorky guy who comes up with some cheesy, overblown way to express his feelings for a girl he doesn't know at all. Then she rejects him. Then he keeps harassing her until she gives in. And they live happily ever after. (This is why the only Chinese TV I watch are cop shows and travel documentaries).

My guess is that if this image has retained such popularity, it strikes a chord with both male and female media consumers. The girls seem to think it's "cute" --- they don't want macho jerks, they want unthreatening stalkers like they see on TV, with whom they can play hard-to-get and satisfy themselves and their family members that they aren't sluts who would give in to the guy immediately. Ironically, I think the guys might prefer to be jerks; the problem is that they, along with the girls' families, reinforce the old-fashioned agricultural village mentalities that any girl who would like such a guy is a slut.

However, none of the above really holds true for American-born Chinese. As for the question of white geeks and Asian-American girls, despite the fact that the geeks seem to think they're hot (compared to what else the geeks might get, that's probably true, but not on any objective standard) ... I started to write one of my usual long replies, but with your permission I'll just post on this one in a bit instead.

Well, my favorite anime venue is rife with harem comedies and high school comedies where the geeky guy just doesn't get that he is irrestible to the grrl or grrls. That is one of the most common themes. :)

BTW, Rajib, a jackass is a fool. What you were is described by a cognate word.

'On the other hand european girls know what the want and dont all ways wait for the guy. The all-time winners on this front -- Aussies.'

Australian women are the most charmless and obnoxious bushpigs in the mire.

I spent the past several years in China, and one thing that I definitely have noticed is that the Western stereotype of Asian men (well, Chinese men at least) holds true. Men here are far more reserved and effete than men in Anglo-saxon countries, or any of the Southern European men I've met (all of whom have demonstrated a remarkable level of shamelessness when it comes to courting the opposite sex).
I'll give you an example of a crucial difference between men here and men in the West. If you ask most Chinese guys - middle-class Chinese men at least - who are still studying, or still at a nascent stage of their career, if they have a girlfriend, the usual response is 'No. I'm too busy. I have other responsibilities'. The general mentality is that when you are young, you work hard to acquire your education, then establish your career. Once you have money, you can philander all you want. I've heard that this is the explanation for astronomical levels of infidelity amongst Chinese and Taiwanese males, as well as the rampant sex industry.
This mentality is the absolute antithesis of that of most Western males, who would much prefer to sow their oats while still young.

"at the end of the day, if you're a hardcore geek, the only way you can land a chick with a nice bod is if you go Asian"


This is completely true. Asian women who date Westerners generally suffer from appalling taste in men.

jonathonteoh:
This is completely true. Asian women who date Westerners generally suffer from appalling taste in men.
Well, at least among the US-born ones, they girls aren't that hot themselves, so they don't have the option of trading up for a good looking, popular white guy, NOR a good looking, popular Asian guy. Their only other option are Asian American geek guys, who tend to be bitter, conformist momma's boys. Those compare unfavorably with white geeks, who tend to at least possess upbeat goofiness. Machoness never even comes into the equation.

No idea what the situation is like in the mainland but I suspect money has quite a bit to do with it. Here in HK, the single white guys almost uniformly date Filipina domestics cuz all but a miniscule subset of the locals ignore them.

Interestingly, I've observed that European women often go for geeky guys. On more than one occasion in Germany, I've met high school couples consisting of an attractive buxom blond and a thin, geeky-looking guy who was presumably attractive to the girl because of his brains and personality. In Europe, they don't seem to place the same importance on macho good looks.

jinnderella:
Well, my favorite anime venue is rife with harem comedies and high school comedies where the geeky guy just doesn't get that he is irrestible to the grrl or grrls. That is one of the most common themes.
Which is hardly surprising, since much of the domestic anime audience in Japan consists of socially inept guys. Of course they enjoy seeing themselves portrayed as girl magnets.

Eric,

Actually, most of the Chinese women in Shanghai who date Westerners tend to be what we in the industry generally refer to as 'tramps.' I'm often surprised at how remarkably affluent friends of mine from Europe or North America, with outstanding careers and reasonable good-looks, end up dating very average-looking local girls, or just blatant sluts. My impression is that the women who date Westerners in Shanghai are either very ordinary, or very very slutty.
Surprisingly enough, the one group of Westerners who do often date very attractive Chinese girls are English teachers - who are generally reviled within the expat-community as being bottom-feeding pondscum, and are often nothing but gormless failures unable to succeed in their own countries. The reason for this is that they meet so many Chinese girls through work. For other members of the expat-community, whose exorbitant incomes are offset by arduous work-schedules, and who usually only possess a rudimentary level of Mandarin, meeting women outside of nightclubs can be difficult.

Has anyone noticed how women from Anglo-saxon countries tend to find Jeremy Irons repulsive, but women from continental countries think he's a babe?

let's keep it a tiny bit classy here, i mean 'bush pigs'? i know people have strong opinions in this area.

anyway, from i gather, it seems the chinese vs. american differences in the stereotypical attractive male is mostly attributable to culture if asian american females behave more like americans.

razib,

So are you a stereotype defier? You are a geeky asian guy who has dated attractive non-geeky women.

i'm south asian. normally i don't make much of this diffence, but girls i have dated indicate that it is quite clearly salient.

yeah, south asian guys statistically are the only "asian" group which has a surplus of (asian male: white female) vs. (white male: asian female) couples.

which is why you will never hear south asian guys crying about them "stealing our women".

(then again, it is only honest to mention that a nontrivial fraction of "our women" have unfortunate amounts of facial hair...)

I've been reading a book, "The Secret Life of Lobsters", which is, as you might expect, about the natural history of lobsters (and the lobstermen who catch them).

Some researchers put enough lobsters in a big enough tank to be able to observe how they would actually behave in the wild. Each lobster finds its own cubbyhole to hide in. The male lobsters fight among themselves for dominance (no surprise there). The winner (lets call him Alpha Lobster) takes the best cubbyhole. Then Alpha Lobster regularly makes the rounds of the tank, beating up on both male *and* female lobsters. Female lobsters mate just after molting. One by one, when it was time to molt, the female lobsters would visit Alpha Lobster's cubbyhole to get laid. The same lobster that was beating them up all this time.

I found it remarkable how much lobsters and humans have in common.

check this:
http://www.leykisonline.com/ main...s_101_rules.htm

Leykis says UCLA means:
'Ugly Caucasions Living With Asians'

When he's 'on,' he's probably the most entertaining radio personality out there- even more than Howard Stern probably. Nobody, NOBODY knows how to make stupid women (and men too) sound retarded on the air better than him. But, that's pretty easy when so many of his callers that try to put him down can only bring emotive arguments. His signature segments include ragging on single Moms and Leykis 101 (on Thursdays).

He's also 1/4 Jewish and dropped out of college due to lack of funds.

I think some of these comments tell us a lot more about the writer's prejudices and insecurities than about the reality of the white-Asian dating situation.

Eric Lien-- but that doesn't explain why grrls like anime! Perhaps there is a new sort of social selection operating? Not bad guys, but guys with brains?
And, David Boxenhorn, from the xx perspective, i don't think razib was behaving as a jackass-- jerk would be the first term that pops into my head. Semantics. :)
Sadly, it is true that some females are drawn to jerks and cads. Popular mythology has it that a "reformed" cad makes the best husband.

"Sadly, it is true that some females are drawn to jerks and cads. Popular mythology has it that a "reformed" cad makes the best husband."

People don't change unless they actually are the ones who want to change. It's pointless trying to affect change on someone under any other manner.

I have no idea why women are drawn to 'jerks'. It probably has some evolutionary psychology etiology. I don't this is necessarily true for all women, but just most young American women I've come across- and especially if they're hot. I can say for a fact that certain foreign women, like traditional Indian women, aren't stupid enough for this.

Well, jerks mating with primadonnas, and people wonder why this country has a 50% divorce rate? I wonder if this situation will correct itself. Specifically, with so many men being born to single Mothers, they might be more effeminate than the average boy who had a Dad around to 'kick their ass right.' Maybe, they will be too effeminate to know how to be a jerk like so many of their Dads? Then again, this might just make women more desiring of any true jerks who come along.

my theory (not all mine, but I forget who puts it better):

men like to express their power thru sex
women like to express their power thru relationships

Everybody wants to be thought of as exceptional

Men may like to hang around sluts, but they don't want serious relationships with them, for that they want a shy, hestitant women who just feels overpowered by his special mojo.

Women like to hang around nice guys but they don't want serious relationships with them, for that they want a mean, rotten sob, who's (sometimes) nice to them (the long term project is supposedly to 'change him' but not too much - they want to be the only one he's nice to.)

So, nice guys equal sluts and jerks equal nice girls (roughly speaking).

Yes, there are lots of individual exceptions, but this dynamic plays out very, very often.

jinnderella: You are agreeing with me. The word I was thinking of is a synonym of jerk.

..the word Bush called Clymer?

I think that it there is sonme truth to calling Southern European men 'cads not dads'. Spain and Italy have birthrates of 1.1 children per woman, which is exceptionally low even by European standards. For comparison, in Germany it's 1.4, and in Norway 1.86. All these numbers mean that births are below replacement rates, but in Souther Europe the decline is espeically rapid.

jinnderella: Are (anime) harem comedies really that popular with girls? I thought not, but maybe I'm wrong.

zusty, Tenchi Muyo springs to mind! And there's CLAMP, all grrl studio, and Inuyasha's writer/director is a woman...not just anime, but manga is hugely popular with grrls, and there is a lot of the same paradigm. :)

I am a geeky Asian who has a hot blonde girlfriend. Well, she does not think I am geeky. She think I look quite athletic.

I behave like jerk when I am with her. We broke up so many times and every time she called me back first. I am not jerk by nature. But her paranoid personality drove me crazy and made me yielding at her. I guess that blue eyes people tend to paranoid and anxious like Razib post about shy blue eye boys before.

The difference in opinion between "Mac in Japan" and the posters from China isn't that much of a surprise. White foreigners are far more in demand with the locals in Japan than in China from what I have heard and experienced.

As far as Razib's different experience goes: I have noticed that South Asian expats and immigrants in Australia are FAR more likely to be assimilated into the culture and work/socialise with White Australians than those from East or South-East asia.

Perhaps it's because there are less south asians around here (therefore there isn't a critical mass of immigrants or expats to form exclusive communities like there is with Chinese or Vietnamese immigrants).

Also there's the fact that Australia and India share the same national pastime (cricket), which probably makes the assimilation process a little easier than for people who come from cultures that don't share anything.

And another thing is that a large majority of south asian people around here are single male students or skilled migrants. The South Asian guys don't really have a choice other than to date white girls, because they outnumber the South Asian girls by about 10 to 1.

I mean the SA guys outnumber the SA girls by about 10 to 1.

You've got it backwards. Women tolerate more crap from guys they *really* like. Which is not really better for the women. Move on girls, move on.....

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