I just thought, before I had anyone post comments calling me ignorant about Romanism, I should point out that I was an R.C. for the first 12 years of my life. Infant Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation, Confession, Rosary...etc...etc...been there, done that.
I have 15 years of Roman Catholic Catechism in me by going to an R.C. primary shcool as well as high school. I know Romanist teaching, and it is by that knowledge that I condemn it.
When I was born again, the Lord saved me of my sin, and part of that sin was being an idolatrous Roman Catholic.
Peace,
It must be exhausting, enumerating all the people you deem - sorry - the Bible deems unfit for heaven. But I'm sure you sleep well at night, so that must help. Peace, indeed.
LOL...had a feeling this would come soon.
What can I say? Maybe the apostle Paul had it right:
"But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." (2 Corinthians 2:15)
Speaking of Paul, isn't it interesting, he didn't have any problem enumarating those who the Bible condemned: Alexander, Hymanaeus (1 Timothy 1:19-20), and Demas(2 Timothy 4:10).
Wonder if it helped him sleep better at night?
"...let God be true, but every man a liar..." (Romans 3:4)
Oh where we find ourslef when the ignorant attempt to teach. You need to find the truth about the Catholic church and not the bigoted propaganda so many Protestants swallow. Flaws of man do exsist in every denomination however, Christ left us one single source to teaching Christians. It's been here over 2000 years. It's the one true Catholic church.
"You need to find the truth about the Catholic church and not the bigoted propaganda so many Protestants swallow."
*Rand points to his first comment.
"Christ left us one single source to teaching Christians. It's been here over 2000 years. It's the one true Catholic church."
*Rand looks for a bible passage to support this view. Rand gives up, it's not there.
This is a battle Rand, an uphill one too. Thanks for having the courage to take it on. It will help to make the very important distinction between the original and universal Catholic faith, and the evolution of the introduced heresies in practice today, clearly they don't jibe with scripture -- but when the source of authority is a man (the Pope) the arguments fall on deft ears, but will at least give folks like Shaun something to think about.
Good on you for bringing this up Rand. I heard a very good quote a few years back which was said by Pastor Steve Hill at the Pensacola Revival in which he said that if we as Christians aren't facing some sort of persecution from people in our walk, then we need to seriously question our salvation. Makes you think doesn't it?
Rand: the fact that you could not find anything proves your lack of scriptual understanding. let me help you. According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (the sin of polygamy)? NO, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many). The original historical Church is the Catholic church. In conclusion, Scripture is pretty straightforward about the Church's role in salvation, Its authority and Its organization. It's all a matter of deductive reasoning, correct interpretation and pure logic.
However much I may agree with certain critiques of the RCC's doctrines, your last statement, "There will be no Roman Catholic in the Kingdom of God" is just too far to go.
Et tu, Michael?
BTW, since Rand brings up doctrines he can't find in Scripture, I'm curious to know where one would find sola scriptua taught in Scripture.
*Funky hears pins dropping.
Ok...for the sake of any out there who are honestly seeking truth (funky and shaun are not in this group), I will answer their charges/questions.
Shaun: "Christ wanted us to be one..."
No. Christ wanted His people to be one, and they are. "We" are not one, I am a born-again Christian, you are a Romanist idolater.
Shaun: "We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same"
No. "We" are not part of the Church. Born again Christians are in the body of Christ. You are not.
Shaun: "There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many."
Couldn't agree more. My faith is in the Christ described in the Word of God. Your faith is in the Roman Catholic church.
Shaun: "For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many."
Absolutely. Christ's body is the universal church which spans many centuries, many cultures, many denominations, but IS COMPOSED OF BORN-AGAIN BELIEVERS, not romanists.
Shaun: "The original historical Church is the Catholic church."
Says you. And I'm afraid the "original church" was formed in Jerusalem, and they did not worship Mary, they did not call Peter a pope, and they did not worship idols.
Shaun: "In conclusion, Scripture is pretty straightforward about the Church's role in salvation, Its authority and Its organization."
The Bible has plenty to say on the organization and authority of the church; and nowhere do we find it mentioning a pope, cardinals, archbishops...etc. Oh yeah, and as far as salvation, the church doesn't have a role; SALVATION IS OF THE LORD!
(Jonah 2:9)
Shaun: "It's all a matter of deductive reasoning, correct interpretation and pure logic."
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." (1 Corinthians 3:19)
Now, my responce to Funky's prideful assertion:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Notice the word I capitalized. The greek word means "complete". A Christian is made complete by the Scriptures. No need to add anything.
NOW PLEASE PAY ATTENTION: as my post clearly states, I reject romanism, because I believe the Bible rejects it. I'm not interested in a debate. I've made my case ON MY WEBSITE. You don't like it, start your own website. Any future uncharitable comments from disgruntled romanists will be deleted and the ips will be banned. If you have an honest question/comment, be my guest, if you just want to vent, don't do it here!
Thank you,
Hi Andrew,
Sorry I missed your comment there. You are not alone in your view amonst most evangelicals, and that is one of the reasons I posted this entry.
Most evangelicals have no problem saying that no Muslim will enter into Heaven. No Buddhist. No Hindu. But they stop short of the RCC. Why? Because they regard the Bible, they believe in "Jesus", they go to "church".
The problem is, it's all conterfeit. The Bible is not regarded as fully inerrant and inspired, the Jesus they believe in is different, and the mass is, well, I believe the French word for mass describes it best: MESSe!
You may think this is extreme, but I ask you to consider these matters prayerfuly and carefuly, with your eyes in the Scriptures.
Take care,
It does say in the bible and even Jesus quoted this one that you cannot enter heaven unless you have been born again.
Ok...I'm afraid I had to delete a comment and temporarily (I hope) ban Funky.
Debates such as the one he was interested in getting into are mostly vain and unfruitful. I know, I've been in soooo many of them.
My blog isn't a debate forum. This is where I preach about my faith. I placed a comment box to allow people to ask questions, and even, to give me a quick impression of what they thought of the post. Funky, anon, and Shaun made it clear that they didn't appreciate it. Fine. That's perfectly legitimate. They could have been kinder, but it's cool. Note these aren't vain words; Funky, Shaun and anon's comments are still there, and I have not removed Funky's trackback.
Where I draw the line is turning my comment box into a room of point and counter-point. If funky and Shaun want to present their views about what they believe is the "right way", let them do it on their site, or let them find a debating forum.
Funky, in the comment I deleted, you mentioned that you wanted honest dialogue to "reunite the Body of Christ". The problem is you're not listening to me. I DON'T EVER WANT TO SEE GOD'S PEOPLE UNITED WITH ROMANISM. So you're mission, again, is totally opposite from mine, and that is why I refuse to give unlimited space on my blog to your endeavour.
I'm not angry, hateful or prideful towards you; LOL, I don't even know you. I'll wait a couple of days to let things settle down, and I will once again allow you to comment on other posts, as long as they are relevant, respectful to me and respectful to the mission of this site.
Until then, be well...
This is my last post. Anyone is welcome to contact me directly if they wish. I have no anger over this at all. I deal with it everyday. Putting labels aside, I have been born again, Jesus Christ is my one and only saviour. I believe the word of God and I follow it. I am not a "Romanist" and I follow no man. You are all free to accept or reject whatever you choose. I'm not here to "convert" you. All I ask is that you try to really understand my faith before you condem it. I don't propose to judge who does or does not obtain salavation. I have not been given that authority. It's is our hearts that will be be judged in the end and I am confident Christ will save the faithful including Roman Catholics. I respect your views Rand but I would challenge your condemantion of other Christians.
Shaun, I think the fundamental issue is that he denies that we are Christians.
You got it Funky, you've nailed it on the head. And in all honesty I say this with chagrin, not any kind of wicked pride.
Hope, you guys repent and come to the Christ of the Bible.
(Oh! and Shaun, I of course disagree with your last comment, but thanks for the civility. Dissenting comments of that nature I take no issue with.)
Take care,
I'm a protestant.
I'm also an apologist.
You, sir, have no authority to deem who will, and will not, be seen in heaven.
You do not hold the Lamb's Book of Life - thus, you have nothing whatsoever to do with that assessment.
You may assess their spiritual condition, their incorrect theology - but, you may not state that they WILL NOT be in heaven. You have no idea.
I'd like to see where in Scripture you deem that you have that authority.
I agree with Andrew: You crossed the line when you made that statement. The "Nazi Jew" was rather... unbelievable, as well?
Sure, equate Catholics with mass murderers. Is that how you "Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt"?
I love you as a fellow believer - but you have no authority to make such determinations. You have authority to determine whether someone belongs in your _local_ fellowship - but no other.
I challenge you to give me a reference for any such authority. I know of none.
Whoa!
RazorKiss! Do yourself a favour my friend, take more than 5 minutes to analyze a post before commenting on it.
First off, I NEVER COMPARED A ROMANIST TO A MASS MURDERING NAZI. I was merely giving an example of a contradiction. A Nazi Jew is a contradiction. Roman Catholic Christians are a contradiction. That was my point. Read carefully please.
Secondly, only the Lord knows which INDIVIDUALS will enter the kingdom of God. I never claimed to know who was going to go to the kingdom and who wasn't. The only people I mentioned were condemned already are those who have died some time ago, who have shown absolutely no sign of rejecting their romanism (if there is some obscure pope out there that has repented of his romanism, I'll stand corrected).
Even in my dealings with Funky and Shaun, I made it clear that they weren't "in Christ" at this present time. Perhaps they will be one day, but not today.
How can I affirm this? They are Roman Catholics. Can I say Roman Catholics aren't going to enter the kingdom? Yes, yes I can. The Lord condemned the Pharisees and the Sadducees in the Gospels, the Nicolaitanes in Revelation. And in the case of the Nicolaitanes, the Lord rebukes the church at Pergamos for not kicking them out! Why? Because this group professed wicked, false doctrines; as the romanists do.
And here, let me add this Razorkiss:
-NO MUSLIM WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
-NO HINDU WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
-NO BHUDDIST WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Why? because none of these groups follow the Jesus of the Bible; just like the romanist.
Your challenge sir, has been met, and again, please read carefully before making bold assertions (it helps keep the pride level down).
Good night,
"Secondly, only the Lord knows which INDIVIDUALS will enter the kingdom of God. I never claimed to know who was going to go to the kingdom and who wasn't."
I say the following as a clarification, not to start a debate.
For every person,x, if x is not in the set of all Christians, C, x is not in the set of the Elect, E. If the set of all Catholics, R, is not a subset of C, then there does not exist an x such that x is a member of C. Consequently, if x is a member of R, then e is not a member of E. Therefore, to state that R is not in E is the same as saying a no member of R is in E. Conclusion: Rand has indeed specified which individuals will not be a member of the Elect and thus be in Heaven.
Wow!
I won't delete that because, quite simply, I think it's way too hard to understand...LOL.
Now, to dispel Funky's weird math: No liar will go to Heaven. That is totally biblical ( See Revelation 21:8 ). This world is full of liars. Some of them will be saved by the grace of God, others will be condemned in their lies. I don't know who the redeemed liars are until they repent and believe in the Gospel, or until they die in their sin.
I can say NO LIAR WILL GO TO HEAVEN. I can't say JOE BOB, MY NEIGHBOUR, WHO IS A LIAR, WILL NEVER ENTER HEAVEN.
(please keep it to e-mails for now funky, the Terms of Use for this site is in the workings)
later,
"There will be no Roman Catholic in the Kingdom of God; that includes all the popes, mother Theresa, brother Andrew, and all other men and women who have rejected the God of the Bible to embrace the Romanist god. If you are a Romanist, and you are reading these words, you need to repent and believe in the God of the Bible. God will not receive an unrepentant idolater."
I know you have your reasons to say that, but my issue is this; It's all fine for you to believe something like this (though i think it's a pretty naive/hateful/remarkable thing to think), but you (as far as i've read) don't talk to god, or he doesn't talk to you. He hasn't spoken in your ear and said "muslims? no. hindus? no. etc."
You are making your statements based on conclusions you have made after reading passages from the bible.
I will point out that the Bible was written by men. Fallible men that wrote things they know to be untrue, who wrote things because they were inclined to do so, or were pressured to do so. They wrote oral stories and transferred them to the written word. They created allegories that used the characters of Jesus to express morality or goodness.
In that vain, your analysis is incorrect. You have reached FINAL judgements based on words written 1600, 1700 years ago (and some centuries older) by men, not by God.
My view is that the Bible is corrupted by men. The moral lessons are good and valuable, but much of the rest of it is symbolistic and/or political for the times it was written in.
To say no Roman Catholic will go to heaven, is to say you have been there, have talked it over with God, and that's what he told you before sending you back here to spread the word. Otherwise you can not know. Citing biblical quotes is not proof, it is only citing biblical proof.
You could tell me the earth was created about 6,000 years ago, and you know this to be true, because it is in the bible. I could, however, find you lots of evidence to show you that the earth is probably a few million years older. However since neither one of us was around 6,000 years ago, neither side can have the claim to be correct. We can only believe what we think to be true.
I can believe what I believe based on science, and logic, and spiritual teachings. You can believe what you believe based on a 2,000 year old book (i say this, because you haven't backed up anything else you say with anything other than a bible quote).
and what's with all the mother mary bashing? roman catholics may pray to her for strength or hope, but that hardly makes it idolatry. And don't the commandments ask us to honor mother and father? Praying to and for the Lord's mother may not be such a bad thing. Jesus may even thank you for the props to Mom. Do you think he's so egotistical that all who worship must worship to him 100% or he's damning you to hell? What a lousy punk God if that were to be the case. Who'd want to praise an pompous egotist?
This is part 2, as part 1 was too long and was truncated...
One last thing, a poster here said that even jesus said you need to be born again to go to heaven.
first off - it's pretty hard to know what jesus said 2,000 years ago. The quote is also from a book written hundreds of years after his death by a man that may have been influenced/coerced/intimidated/going from oral history/or just felt like writing that.
Second - prove to me jesus existed
Third - prove to me heaven exists, Four - prove that its rules for admittance are what you say they are (without using the bible)
Five - what makes you believe the born again that you are in 2005 is what the writer of the quote was talking about hundreds of years after jesus dies, or 2,000 years after jesus' death?
You are going on faith, fine. But no faith is absolute. If it were, we'd all be the same. Faith is a guiding light, a principle. Faith doesn't seem to me to be about a way to prove how right you are and how hellbound everyone else is.
Sorry for the length, but I hope to spark some conversation. There's gotta be something you can comment on from there...lol
oh... and from your list of everyone who's not going to heaven, you left off the jewish people. will they all be damned to not be allowed into heaven? is this the way jesus would treat someone of his own faith?
what about jews for jesus, maybe they have everything covered?
Well b...,
The problem, in the end, is that you do not believe the Gospel, and:
"...without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)
Now I know what you are thinking: just another Scripture verse huh? Well that is the only answer I have for you. I can't PROVE the bible to you in the manner you are requesting. Faith is the means of salvation and justification with God. You don't have it, and I can't give it to you, faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). And this faith, my friend is absolute.
I will also note that much of your comment(s) states what YOU THINK is right, and where YOU THINK I'm wrong. What do you base yourself on my friend? Your own thinking? You'll excuse me if I stick with my Bible...LOL.
I've been studying the bible for almost 20 years now, I've been working in the field of scientific research for over 10. I have gone through a panoply of life experiences, some good and some bad, and if there is one thing I am absolutely sure about, it's this: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners", and by His unbelieveable grace, HE SAVED A WRETCH like me.
I will not debate with you my friend. Right now, you and I aren't even speaking the same language. You are spiritually lost without Christ. You do not recognize the Bible as the very Word of God because you are not one of God's sheep (John 10:14). The only authority I recognize in this life is the Word of God. I reject all other spiritual "philosophy", and that includes "what you think". You reject the infallibility of the Word of God, and replace it with your own philosophies. WE ARE NOT TALKING THE SAME LANGUAGE.
You need to believe in the Gospel, then, and only then will you have peace, and eternal life ( Romans 10:9 ).
Take care, and please, respect the TOU (see the top of the comment box).
Oh! and let me answer your last bit! I don't know what the motive of the question is, but here is the answer:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." ( Revelation 21:8 )
Jew, Gentile, Black, White, Rich, Poor, it doesn't matter. Those lists make it clear whose condemned, and Romans 8:1 makes it clear who has eternal life:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
(and btw...Jesus spent a great deal of His ministry condemning the religious Jews of His day..."God is not a respecter of person" - 1 Peter 1:17)
Later,
And you you thought *I* was a nay-sayer? 
The problem Rand is you have 100% in the bible. I have stated to you that I don't, for reasons listed above.
No one person who believes in the Gospel as you do has sufficiently addressed the concerns that I have showed. Did Constantine re-write the bible? Who put words in Jesus mouth, and how did they write them (ie who passed down the words generation to generation)? These are important questions. Are you worshipping the word of the Lord or the word of man?
You talk of faith, and faith is a wondrous thing. I have faith, but it is not the same as yours. Your faith is blind apparently. To not have some skepticism about a very very old book that you HOPE will save your soul (as you don't KNOW for sure) is very troubling.
You said you will not debate, as is your right. But i wonder about someone with so much to say and so filled with damnation for others that you clam up in the face of very logical questions.
Well you see b...,
The problem is, you and I don't even agree on what is "logical". I didn't find any of your "arguments" compelling, just as you didn't find any of mine compelling.
We're not talking the same language. A debate/dialogue is a complete waste of time, you reject everything I stand for, and I reject everything you stand for. And neither of us is interested in changing our views.
I condemn everything that is contrary to the Word of God and promote that which the Bible promotes. I do this because I believe the Bible 100%.
I hope you one day come to the knowledge of the Truth that is in Christ Jesus, and you can waste your time thinking that I'm a dumb-dumb for believeing 100% in the Bible.
In the end, my friend, if my premise is correct, you will find out...I assure you.
Later,
So sad. People of faith throwing barbs at each other as to who has Christ and who does not. We are all on a path and it seems to be some of you have forgotten "love one another".
While pointless debate is indeed sad, contending for the Faith is the duty of all saints (Jude 3).
"Loving one another" cannot be fulfilled without the preaching of the Word of God; and that, positively, and negatively. In this particular example, for me to refuse to identify Romanism as a false religion would actually be a LACK of love. Romanists must hear the Truth, so they can repent and come to salvation.
To go through life ignorantly as to the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ's Person and cling to a vague version of "love one another", is NOT Biblical Love.
Later,
Hello Rand; (again)
I was a catholic for 38 yrs,was saved by Jesus that yr. I'm 64.
I have visited Christan web sites from the U.S. for yrs.I didn't think there were any in Canada. Being such a secular country. Well, looky here!
Roman Catholicism is the most digusting cult in the world. No other "religion" spits in God's face like they do. I Thank Jesus for taking me off the broad road to hell.
Steve
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