you'd think someone who claims to be all knowing would at least get the name right.
It's AFSCME
I imagine if you make the same amount of money every year with costs going up,
you would fall behind in your standard of living.
so no icrease in times of inflation is indeed a decrease.
we can argue whether there's enough fat to make up for the decrease, but at least be honest enough to admit it's a decrease in funding if we are in an infationary times.(Which we Are)
Need "protection" from D of Corrections shortfalls?
Easy.
Buy more ammo.
Let me clue you in on something Widder. In reality where most of us work. If our companies are not doing well, 0 is exactly the raise we get. This is especially the case in a time of increasing benefit costs.
How about you union brainiacs find a way to be more efficient in order to save money, then you can have a raise. That is how it works in the real world.
You just want to take and take to line your own pocket.
Free ride is over.
Thanks for the correction.
Fred
you made my point.
i agree that there may be fat to cut or they can find better ways to complete many duties.
But it doesn't change the FACT that
when you give a zero increase in inflationary times, it's a budget cut.
It may not lead to service cuts, but it is a cut in their budget when last years dollar only buys 97 cents worth of product or service this year.
Nice that you changed all your AFSCME
spellings without any acknowledgement.
At the end of my post I believe I thanked you for the correction.
A zero increase is not a cut.
Let me clue you in on something...
Going from 10 to 8 is a cut.
Going from 10 to 10 is not a cut.
Your buying power may be less, but that is not a spending cut.
This is a basic economic concept.
Let me give you some others 1+1=2, 2+3=5.
You seem to have so many issues with math.
Here is the basic concept.
In the real world you have to make money in order to get a raise. You have to prove your worth, etc.
You want to take money.
Make money, take money.
There is a fundamental difference.
There is also another side to this.
Those of us in reality land know we have to "earn" our increases.
Those of you in union land feel entitled to them. What's worse you feel you deserve them not based on how well you do your job, but by how long you have been doing it.
Another difference for you, Fred. In the private world, you can make money for the company and still get the shaft. Or you can get bonuses, raises at will, and other perks. In unionized jobs, that is a whole different world.
And Fred, a freeze in this economy is a cut. The government still has to buy electricity, gas, heat, water, health insurance, other insurances, etc. If those prices go up, that means there is less for services. That means a cut in said services. In other words, you will be paying the same for less, equivalent to a tax hike, but hurting more people. Only greed would make one choose that option.
who is freezing anything Capper.
If an economy grows so will income.
Only greed takes out of pockets so they can not invest and grow the economy.
You should seriously consider economics here. Putting money into peoples pockets grows the economy and increases revenue.
It has only worked every single time it has been tried.
Look at Waukesha County, they are increasing revenues through GROWTH.
Adding regs and taxes will stunt the economy and make everything worse.
If you want to grow decrease government, do not make it bigger.
Yeah, Fred, Waukesha is a fine example. That is why they are wanting to tax Milwaukee County residents for the privelege of entering their county to work at the plants that they grew there.
And your argument about increased revenues only would apply if the incomes grew at the same rate (or higher) than the other costs. We Energies wants a 7% hike each of the next two years. Gas goes up exponentially each year. Natural gas up. I don't see any employer giving raises to match all the increases, and even if they would, it would be eaten up by the skyrocketing healthcare costs.
Yes the employers give smaller raises, yet the union argument is to reach into the pockets of those who have less to give themselves more.
Do you not understand the insanity of increasing taxes in an environment such as we have?
Every neighboring state is killing us in attracting new business.
Yet you liberals want to make the climate even worse by adding to the tax and regulatory environment.
Are companies avoiding us because our taxes are too low?
Get serious.
Maybe if we lowered taxes more UNION jobs would come to the area.
Every think about that?
I highly doubt it.
Oh the dizzying discourse of Madison Mathematics....
Truly, one of my memorable "duct tape adventures" (to quote Glenn Beck) was my first meeting on the state budget where all the state employees rallied (in the middle of a "workday" mind you) to try to convince us that not giving as much of an increase as they wanted is the same as a "cut."
There's no sense trying to convince them otherwise, Fred.
Coming from the Real World (to borrow the capitalization of the "R's" from AFSCME)into the dizzying Arena of Entitlement was mind-blowing. In my business of home building, I understood what a "Real" budget cut was. I understood that fuel, lumber, concrete, copper would all be going up each year. But did that mean that my potential customers would tolerate double digit price increases? No. In the Real World, you must get leaner and more efficient to compete.
The majority of the public understands that. The unfortunate reality for AFSCME is this: their appearance will only serve to underscore the fact that once again, AFSCME wants "more" while they do more with less.
The other comment I wanted to make was that there are many groups of state employees who are underpaid, in my opinion. Folks that work with the developmentally disabled at Southern Wisconsin Center, Corrections Officers, Probation and Parole, Social Workers who deal with foster kids, etc.
They are the ones who will be hurt by this cantankerous bunch of party crashers screaming "more more more!"
Cathy, those that you claim would be hurt by the demand for sufficient funding are the same one's that are demanding it. The only one's that would be hurt by supplying the funding would be the one's who only worry about their own avarice.
Fred, evidence please, regarding your allegations of Wisconsin losing out to neighboring states. I think an analysis of the highest taxed states in the country would reveal that they are also the most populated and the most successful.
The only ones defending unions like AFSCME would be union members themselves. Everyone else knows what things are like in the real world, unfortunately union members like AFSCME live in a world that no longer exists.
Capper, look into stats on new jobs and companies relocating they are easy to find.
If you are not aware of this, please pull your head out of the sand.
Here is one, 58% of new jobs are govt jobs...
http://
realdebatewisconsin.blogs...government.html
I'll find more later, I have to run but you could easily do this yourself.
Capper: to throw out words like "greed" and "avarice" is fundamentally unfair.
The 42% of us in the private sector (aka "Real World")pay the salaries of the 58% in government jobs. With that 42% making cuts in their own household budgets and doing more with less, you have a tall order ahead of you in convincing them that they have it so rough.
Especially when you combine the $ value of their benefits package with anything in the private sector. NOBODY has it as good as the government employees on insurance coverage. I know--I was a very appreciative user of the state health care plan for the 4 years I was in the Senate. The coverage blew me away and for that I'm eternally grateful. Too bad that the state employees aren't better at expressing their gratitude to the guys footing the bill....
Here is another Capper, note the stats from Site Selection magazine.
This is not a partisan outfit.
http://realdebatewisconsin.blogs...oyle-
story.html
Here we see real regional stats, New manufacturing (2005 Numbers)
Wisconsin 5
Illinois 55
Iowa 34
Michigan 72
Minnesota 35
See any disparity there?
Manufacturing expansion (same time period)
Wisconsin 6
Illinois 75
Iowa 64
Michigan 180
Minnesota 36.
How many stories do you have to read about companies chosing someone other than Wisconsin?
Keep burying your head in the sand to the reality of our tax policy and its impact on our economy and things will only get worse and worse.
We don't just need to hold the line on taxes, we need to lower them. We need to be competitive with the other states in the region.
Go ahead compare Wisconsin to california if that makes you feel better.
I'd rather look at our neighbors.
High taxes is NOT a reason to locate a business here.
What's Doyle's answer. Another trip to China. Blame the Republicans for daring to try and hold the line on spending. He is adding to the partisanship here and his willing helpers in the unions are doing the same.
Cathy-
With all do respect, I am fully aware of how elected officials are very much out of touch with the realities that the front line workers are facing. And unless there was a change in state law that I am unaware of, don't public employees also pay taxes?
Freddie-
Ok, let's go local. In today's paper a conservative group came out with this chart . It shows that Minnesota and Iowa have worse taxes than Wisconsin, but your stats show they draw more businesses. It also shows the "best tax states" aren't really known for their business growth, unless you want the state income based on gambling or the sale of Depends.
And, by the way, the Realtor's Association is far from non-partisan. But you are so far to the right that you can't see straight, so they might seem that way to you.
Capper, your governor tried to extort the realtors association. Can you blame them for not supporting him?
You are at least as far left as I am right, so please let us not play that game.
You asked for stats, I gave them to you.
Try and accept that.
And I gave them right back. And was it Doyle extorting the realtors, or vice versa?
Even you must admit how far out of control the whole lobbying thing has gotten.
And I agree to withhold the right/left silliness if you promise to do so when visiting other sites. Otherwise, fair is fair.
Here's something to keep in mind. While it's true state government continues to operate under the last budget, hence no real budget "cut," for some departments - such as the Department of Corrections - no new budget is essentially the same as budget cuts, the reason being the Department is currently supervising more individuals in our communities and in our prisons than it was during the last budget. Roughly 1,200 people per month have been added to the Department of Corrections' supervision since the last budget expired, and without a new budget, cuts will have to be made in order to account for all those new bodies that require supervision.
So Fred, for all intents and purposes the Department of Corrections is operating as if their budget's been cut, because essentially it has been. The same number of dollars is being spent to supervise more offenders.
"The 42% of us in the private sector (aka "Real World")pay the salaries of the 58% in government jobs."
Cathy, there's a couple of basic the flaw with your argument, the first being that state employees pay taxes just like folks in the private sector, so in essence we help pay our own salaries and benefits too. I love this conservative idea that folks in civil service are somehow not taxpayers. I pay taxes just like everyone else, so your assertion that only 42% of people here in Wisconsin pay the salaries for the rest of us is downright false. I'd expect someone who served in the State Senate to be a little better at math, but I guess it's far more convenient to spew conservative talking points than be accurate.
"The 42% of us in the private sector (aka "Real World")pay the salaries of the 58% in government jobs."
Cathy, to be honest, I'm more than a little surprised that someone who spent four years in the Wisconsin State Senate can't seem to master the most basic principles of mathematics. See, you say 42% of folks in Wisconsin who are in the "real world" pay the salaries of the 58% in government jobs, which is curious, because as one of the aforementioned 58%, I get taxes - both state and federal - taken out of each and every one of my checks. You talk as if the 58% of us in government jobs don't pay taxes, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I pay my fair share of taxes just like you, so I resent your assertion that we government workers ought to show you our gratitude. I pay taxes just like you, and to be quite honest, you should be thankful that we government workers do the jobs we do, because we're the folks that help keep Wisconsin going on a day to day basis. We're the folks who patrol the highways, plow the roads, secure our jails and prisons, and keep our communities safe.
(Sorry for the double post)
Zach, of course state employees pay taxes.
Dumb point.
Government works for the people. If you get a government check you are working for the people. You are also part of the people. We get that.
However people in that situation tend to vote to protect their own asses.
They should also giver respect to the their bosses. (the people)
When a majority of job growth is coming from government, that is a SERIOUS issue.
You might want to consider that.
Let's see Zach, who is recommending cutting funding for corrections...
NOBODY.
Dumb point.
Get your nose out of your union talking points and into the real world.
Fred - this is a good point. The problem is that there are a number of (constitutional) services, the ones that protect people and people's property, that I want funded to the level they need, while I wish some of the others would stay where they are (or decrease). Unfortunately, the firefighters and police are mixed in the same bag as the rest when it comes to funding.
"Zach, of course state employees pay taxes."
You can call my point dumb all you want, but according to Cathy Stepp, state employees don't pay taxes. She was very clear that 42% of folks here in Wisconsin pay the salaries of the 58% who work for the state, and I simply pointed out that EVERYONE who works pays taxes, including state workers, since she seems to be confused about that point.
As for your comments about cutting funding for corrections, you should probably re-read what I wrote, because I never once said anyone was recommending cutting funding for corrections. What I said is that operating under the previous budget until a new one is done is essentially the same thing as a budget cut, since the DOC is being forced to supervise more offenders than previous years using the same amount of money. At any rate, it's all a moot point, as a budget deal looks done.
Ahh, Zach.
Nowhere did I ever say public employees don't pay taxes. (However the money they pay them with DOES come from the paycheck provided them by the taxpayer.....)
Just think you guys could go much farther with your positions if the actions behind your words weren't filled with intimidation and bullying. Oh yeah, and some thanks once in a while for the people who pay your salary.
After all, I'm thankful for the police, fire, and corrections officers keeping my family safe. I tell them all the time.
I found this comment interesting: "you should be thankful that we government workers do the jobs we do, because we're the folks that help keep Wisconsin going on a day to day basis. We're the folks who patrol the highways, plow the roads, secure our jails and prisons, and keep our communities safe."
Yes, and YOU GET PAID FOR IT, the same way the rest of us get paid for doing our jobs. To demand more is as cheeky as going into my boss's office and demanding more when there isn't a surplus to go around. If you work for money I don't think you need extra thanks. At least, I never did. If you need extra praise then volunteer for something. If you aren't being paid enough (or you think you aren't) then look for another job where you get paid more instead of stealing it from the taxpayer by making demands that aren't yours to make.
By the way, you claim you're the folks that keep Wisconsin going. So what are the rest of the folks in Wisconsin? Chopped liver?
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