I wonder if grumps, Jack, Foust, and the other tax and spend liberals will defend their position given these accounts? I doubt they will. To tell all these people to "Shut up and Pay your Taxes" is more than immoral, it would prove the soullessness of Liberals, and their greed.
PCD, you're a monomaniac. Who said I was a tax and spend liberal?
It's okay, John. Lohman thinks I'm on Rose's side in half of this argument.
Fred, these are truly some sad stories and some of them tangentially mention Estate Taxes. Some are just people being scared of what might be. Some are just examples of poor estate planning. You don't have an argument in these posts.
Sorry, but true.
Foust, you prove it all the time, liberal.
So, I guess it's OK with grumps that the government makes tax laws so people are forced to spend a small fortune on estate planning and insurance to cover whatever death taxes there may be.
I beg to differ! Estate planning ought to be simplified, not complicated by tax lawyers and government laws that even the IRS isn't sure about.
Another joke------ right?
grumps, and you don't have a counter to the truth. You said the death tax did not hit the middle class. You are wrong, and these stories prove it.
There is a good reason why African-American Business Leagues and Hispanic Business Associations abhor the death tax. Most of them are first generation family businesses, who have assets but no cash to pay such a horrendous tax burden, and to raise the cash to pay the taxes all too often forces the sale of the business or huge parts of it. Just think about it, if you have a business you have built with guts and sweat, and the day you die your heirs are forced to sell off huge chunks of it. I guess that wouldn't be a total disaster if your heirs didn't care to continue the business and just wanted the money to run, but if they were as dedicated as you were, then it would be pretty calloused to force them out because of taxes. Many other businesses are in the same boat, including all racial groups.
It seems to me that the government ought to be helping these groups instead of harming them with their greed.
Fred, these are truly some sad stories and some of them tangentially mention Estate Taxes. Some are just people being scared of what might be. Some are just examples of poor estate planning. You don't have an argument in these posts.
Sorry Grumps.
I guess I've heard too many commercials from teachers advocating for Presidential candidates who have tenure, killer benefits and guaranteed retirements who are worried about the economy.
And likewise people worried about health care using it a wedge to push universal health care on us.
Are you serious? These are people sharing from the heart their very serious concerns and experiences with this issue. And somehow you dismiss their concerns with a wave of your hand.
I thought this was a good example of caring.
I'm trying to feel these people's pain.
Was it not a real example when Lynn Marie Hoopingarner showed how her Grandfathers monies wound up being taxed at an effective 88% rate? 12% left unmolested by the government after a lifetime of work.
You liberals sure are heartless.
Rose, that is the problem with grumps' arguments. He won't recognize his own greed and envy. He doesn't care what he distroys. He just wants to pull everyone down. That is what makes grumps feel better, everyone else in pain.
Fred, you've published a hodge-podge of survey answers, 20 year-old anecdotes and a compilation of fears without basis as fact from an anti-tax website and want me to swallow them as cold hard current facts. I'm sorry I'm neither as rabid as Rose or as gullible as PCD.
This list of hogwash, supposition and speculation is no more fact than the goofy pseudo-science you rely on for your climatology. It's damn depressing to see discourse degraded like this. Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true, accurate or relevant.
I've tried to not call PCD a fool but he just keeps nattering and nattering and there's nothing else I can do. If he would make a lucid point 3 posts out of 7 it would be tolerable but all he does is generate chaff.
Grumps. Clue in buddy. Your own party uses rheotirc like this every day every candidate every stump speach. Showing a person who is effected negatively.
If you don't like seeing how this effects other people that is your problem.
All you are doing at this moment is generating chaff yourself.
In the other post I was asked to provide example and names. Here ya go.
Fact is you don't care how this effects real people.
You like all the other libs just want to play your class warfare crap, well I'm not going to allow it this time. This is wrong, this is immoral, this is sanctioned government theft.
And I'll be happy to debate you on climate change any day and time any place and I'll bury you with actual science over your Al Gore Power Point nonsense...
I used to think you were one of the more reasonable lefties out there.
I guess not.
I saw a Barack Obama commercial tonght where he is using his dead Mother as a call for National Health Care.
His claim is hogwash
Fred nothing you can say changes a libs mind.
They want your money, your Dad's money, his Dad's money and your Grannies money.
It's not yours it's Foust and Grumps. They want it.
Just STFU, and show libs the money.
The concept is absurd. Your Dad dies, libs spend his money.
Because they want to buy more votes. Some of these dimbulbs believe in socialism/communism in their blackened hearts.
You are right Mickey. It never ceases to amaze me though how they can attack my tactics yet ignore their leaders doing exactly the same thing.
Fact is this tax is immoral. It is just plain wrong.
They have no issue taking away for their purposes 88% of someone's estate de to their disdain for the "rich".
Fred, spare me the, "Oh, woe," spiel.
Let's start with that 88% effective tax rate quote from the Estate Tax Troofers' website.
Even if there were three separate transaction, each taxed separately the "effctive rate" would not be 88%. That's just shoddy math.
The Sykes, Rife, Hickey, Holland, Collelar, Oman and Kaplan quotes are not stories of something that happened. They are speculation and fear-mongering.
The story about Ray is certainly an example ofpoor estate planning but has very little to do with the Estate Tax. It's a mish-mosh of whining about Income taxes, poor choices in IRS's and a Capital Gains Tax. It's a poor understanding of the issue you think it addresses.
The first story talks about a decreased estate because of a depressed real estate market during the Time of Reagan. WTF does that have to do with the Estate Tax?
I hear all the time from the Righ Hand side of the Cheddarsphere that they take marching orders from no one, that they are their own men and women but some schlub from New York drifts into Pewaukee, spends fifteen minutes talking about the evils of the death tax and the blogs flower with the poisoned fruit of piss poor analysis and fer-mongering anecdotes that sound something like the point.
I've seen it happen in these comment threads time and time again. Someone comes here to try to engage in something approaching real debate and the snipes like PCD keep nattering until someone loses their temper and then you get to play your "Aw Shucks, I expected better," post.
Shameful
Grumps, thin ice you are treading on.
Very thin ice. I started this two days before I heard that speaker at the summit. I had no idea what he was going to speak of.
You are ignoring a very real fact. This tax impacts people negatively. And yes this is an 88% effective tax rate when you start with a buck and the government winds up with 88 cents of that dollar. Math can not be much more simple than that. You just wish to difuse that as it shows hor horribly wrong on an ethical level this policy is.
I was asked to provide names and examples. I pointed out after you tried to dismiss that this is exactly the tactic your presidential candidates are using, you ignore that.
Lastly this shows examples of people who are using estate planning. $400,000 wasted on life insurance premiums to cover taxes that could be put back into businesses TO CREATE NEW JOBS.
The only thing shameful here is you.
grumps,
Who said you ever made a post that wasn't full of a Kool-aid drinker's regurgitations. You know nothing of lucidity.
One other thing, you never proved the morality of the death tax or refuted that the posted stories weren't middle class people affected if not devastated by the death tax.
Death should not be a taxable offense.
You know what Jack, those who do have their DEATH taxed, are the very ones who paid and paid and paid and paid during their living years. And even after paying and paying and paying, those who were successful and productive had something left for liberals to snatch.
Did you ever notice that the group of LIMO LIBS who prattle, huff and puff about the "Rich" getting tax cuts don't mail in offerings to the IRS.
Kennedy. Where did he earn his millions.
Kerry-Heinz. Where did he earn his millions.
Rodham. Where did she earn her millions.
Edwards. Where did he earn his millions.
Harry Reid??? Pelosi??
These demogogues are free to write a check to the IRS or give money to the "huddled masses" at any moment. The concept of ECONOMIC JUSTICE is a.k.a. Communism.
If Edwards (for example) gave up 90% of his ambulance chasing cash, he'd still eat steak and could afford $500.00 hair cuts, whenever he chose.
WHY DOESN'T HE?? I mean he cares. Right?
I don't know where you get these stories but they are misleading to say the least. For example, the story of Ray is riddled with erroneous assumptions. If the real estate was valued at $1.7 million first you should know that the appreciation on the real estate was never taxed. Thus, there is "income" without taxation. Second the tax on a $2 million estate when the exemption was only $675,000 the tax would be approx. $400,000 and Ray gets to pay much of that estate tax attributable to the business over a 10 year period with a loan from the gov. at 2% interest. Yep, 2% interest. Nothing has to be sold to pay the tax. The muni bonds were probably enough to pay the tax on retirement funds much which can now grow without any further tax for Ray for many many years and easily turn into another big pot of wealth for him. In 10 years at 8% this will more than double to $350,000.
In 10 years at 8% this will more than double to $350,000.
So what? It is not the governments money to take Stephanie.
The very premise that after someone pays taxes their whole lives you are going to tax what they leave behind is abhorent.
fred
you really are a piece of work.
you were an insurance salesman, an estate planner
so you might have some real world knowledge in this area, but your posts certainly don't show it.
rather you play the big tuff guy so i gotta be right act....now your'e a science expert...puhlease....
Where was he woring Jmac?
Sometimes posts are not worthy of response....
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