I think you'd best fact those "facts", especially those that don't provide a link.
"95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens."
I think this guy is full of shit. But I've been proven wrong. Its one thing to bring up the very valid point that these are illegal immigrants, but to repost falsities would be a shame, regardless of reason.
While researching this one figure, I found it conveniently cited on a number of right wing blogs and message boards, but no links or citations that could find whatever source they took this from.
Again, please prove me wrong. But if this one "fact" is wrong, there is no reason to believe the rest are accurate, either.
I'm more than happy to prove ya wrong. 
>95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
Roberts cited the L.A. Times for many of his facts, and Center for Immigration Studies (www.cis.org) for others.
A quick Google found similar statistics in a story by Fox News on March 17, 2005, with the following clarification: "In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants and 60 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,150638,00.html
The Washinton Times listed it as: "In Los Angeles, more than 90% of all outstanding homicide warrants and about 65% of fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/n...20953-
3166r.htm
From what I can tell, everyone is quoting Heather Mac Donald, Senior Fellow for the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, when she testified before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims on April 13, 2005.
"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide in the first half of 2004 (which totaled 1,200 to 1,500) targeted illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) were for illegal aliens."
http://www.manhattan-institute.o...ald04-13-
05.htm
More interesting facts on illegal immigrants here:
http://www.firecoalition.com/
So, now that these facts aren't in question and this guy is not "full of shit," what do you think of these illegal immigrants and their impact on our society and economy?
I still think the great majority of Mexican immigrants contribute to our society and culture, and I'm still skeptical about those figures. Also, statistics don't equate to facts - they're usually just statistics. Thats my grumpy way of relenting to a big ol HOLY FUCK if the stats are accurate. I'd also want to see if "outstanding warrants" equates to 95% or 65% of all crimes committed are by illegal immigrants, or if those figures represent that, by the very nature of being undocumented its hard to ID or find illegal immigrants.
Regardless, up until these numbers, I was going to even go one step further in correcting that today is about immigration. You say its about illegal immigration. I want to point out that its about illegal LATINO AND MEXICAN immigrants.
I agree that the majority of Mexican immigrants contribute positively to our culture and society. They have a tremendously strong work ethic. I have no issue with law-abiding citizens and LEGAL immigrants.
And yes, Mexicans definitely comprise the largest (and currently most vocal) group of the illegal immigrants we're dealing with.
But why do you say this is simply about immigration? There is no beef whatsoever with those who come here, regardless of their country of origin, and apply to be a citizen. The issue is with people who wish to circumvent the law. It's the illegals who are the problem.
Actually, I agree with you about this issue not being about immigration. I was pointing out that the protests are even less about immigration as a whole as opposed to illegal Mexican and Latino immigrants specifically. They aren't fighting for more legal immigration from Canada or other countries - maybe a small percentage are - but the focus is granting special access to people from one region.
That said, I still think that our gov't failed us by not enforcing existing laws, and to try and enforce those laws now is a going to prove futile and a waste of efforts. There are tens of millions here who we can spend trillions of dollars trying to kick out, or we can - yes, provide some sort of amnesty - so that we can take control of the situation, make sure that these people are paying taxes, and encourage them to follow all other laws. I'm also for tightening up the border NOW and punishing violators even more aggressively and harshly in the future.
Concerning the businesses shutting down ops: while I wouldn't doubt many/most of their employees are possibly illegal immigrants, there are undoubtedly a number of LEGAL immigrants or even home-grown Latinos not showing up today in a statement of solidarity (or simply taking advantage of Latin Skip Day).
In general I hear ya about the lawbreaking thing, but I can't be too mad at them for taking advantage of a situation our own society/culture created and is maintaining. Let's (not that you don't) throw some of the ire at the companies and individuals making a habit of looking the other way when hiring.
Also, I think some of it might just be due to the "look 'em in the eyes" element--that is, Jose comes in to apply, and he seems eager to work, has the skills you seek, was recommended by friends and seems like a good guy just trying to feed his family, and ya have to decide whether to tell him to buzz off because of a missing piece of paper. For some it's hard to stick to an abstract ideal with a real person sitting in front of you hoping you don't.
I disagree about the "look 'em in the eyes" thing. I think it's much more likely that the employers in question are a bunch of cheap bastards who want to get away with paying ridiculously low wages and avoid providing (and thus having to pay for) insurance. And, of course, there's always the issue of taxes, too.
I agree with ya that we need to give a HUGE kick in the balls (metaphorically speaking) to employers who've hired illegal aliens. I think Immigration & Customs Enforcement needs to be making the rounds hand-in-hand with the IRS.
'or if those figures represent that, by the very nature of being undocumented its hard to ID or find illegal immigrants'
i think you nailed that one unsom, that's what i was going to say.
'half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border'
and that's another fact i'm sure is skewed a bit... there's no way half the gang members here are from mexico...
Just returned from the Los Angeles protest... never seen so many American flags in my life. INSANE amount of people.
I'll grant ya that the "look in the eyes" thing would not be the majority of the cases. Perhaps more prevalent with smaller businesses or rich old white women hiring a lawn service.
A Day without Immigrants?. Oh my! I didn’t know that the people who live in this country without any legal document(s) are “Immigrants”….so, what am I?. I’ve been waiting in the long line to submit my paperworks to the U.S.Embassy in Thailand. I’ve been answering so many questions at the U.S.Embassy. I’ve been waiting in line (again) after I got in the U.S.A. to apply for my SSN and my Resident card before I can have my I.D. card. I pay tax from my U.S.Dollars income, I’ve never done anything illegal. I’ve had to apply for the U.S.Visa for my parents to come in the U.S. for only 1-2 month visit when my son was born and the U.S.Embassy issued visa for my mother but refused to issue visa for my father!. I’d like to ask the people who called themself “Immigrants” do you have I-94 when you arrive in this country? I bet you don’t and I bet you don’t even know what is it? because “YOU ARE ILLEGAL ALIENS”.
Well, Sunanta, if you truly did go through all those procedures to come to America legally, then I salute you. It's nice to have people here who respect the rules (and the citizens of this nation).
Plus, it's always nice having new readers to this blog. Welcome!
What about the I-94? Is it a document easily obtainable? How long does it take? Where are "the rules" listed? Even if Sunata is going through the motions to come here legally, and has not yet obtained citizenship, why is s/he paying taxes?
What about the amnesty that Reagan granted to illegal immigrants back in the 80's? Do they have to get an I-94 now also?
Hi Maginta, welcome to the blog.
The I-94 is an "entry card." It's required by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services for someone to enter America legally. The paperwork to start the naturalization process is easily obtained but will require patience and perseverance to endure the process and subsequent waiting. HERE is a guide to the Naturalization process.
The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (what you're calling the "Reagan Amnesty") was a "path to citizenship" for illegal immigrants, much like what is being touted now. Paperwork is still required.
To become a citizen, or to be naturalized, a person must meet certain requirements. One of which is they must have lived in the U.S. for at least 5 years (the person would have to pay taxes on income earned during that time)
Click THIS to read the steps required to become a U.S. citizen.
Are you thinking of immigrating to America, or are you here already and looking to do things legally?
You've broken the law for four years? You're a criminal. But keep breaking the law for one more year, and you're in. But better have a nest egg to pay back taxes.
I wonder what the stats are for people actually being naturalized this way, because the hurtles seem a bit unrealistic for people picking strawberries for pennies.
Not that it should be too easy, but I keep hearing stories like Sunanta's. Seems to me if we're demanding immigrants to take the proper steps, that we could at least make those steps less grueling.
On a sidenote, what makes illegal immigrants lawless ingrates, as opposed to lawless workers?
(sarcasm button on)
Why would anyone want to come to the US anyway, given our unelected President, our capitalist economy, our hatred of gays, the "poor" economy, the loss of constitutional freedoms, etc, etc, etc."
(sarcasm button off)
Because we ARE the best country in the world. The immigrants have voted with their feet.
Saint, for once I agree with you. In spite of our flaws, the USA rocks, and we should be flattered instead of offended that so many people want to become citizens.
I'm not offended that so many people want to become citizens. I think that's great. I'm just offended that so many of them think they don't have to follow the rules and are protesting in order to shake their collective fist (or extend a middle finger) at the citizens of the country they claim to love.
And THAT is what makes them ingrates.
What part makes them ingrates?
This supposed middle finger?
Wouldn't you agree that freedom of speech is a human right?
And would you prefer that these people live in the shadows and stay quiet? There are a number of illegal immigrants who would agree that they shouldn't speak up and should stay underground, for fear of being seen, caught and deported. Are these guys equally ingrates?
What about the Mexicans living legally in poverty back in Mexico who might have a better chance of feeding and educating their children... are these folks NOT ingrates?
Man, you sure do seize on the strangest things.
Freedom of speech doesn't remove one from the ramifications of one's actions/speech. If someone flips me the bird, I'll likely be pissed off. So?
If someone came and ate dinner at your table, then promptly took the dirty dishes and threw them on your sofa, I bet you'd take offense. Aliens who come here to take advantage of our good will and our system, and then circumvent the rules the rest of us abide by - are being rude and inconsiderate as well. Like, well, ingrates.
The ingrates are the protesters.
Do I think they should stay underground? Nope. I think they should go back to Mexico (or wherever they came from), or else begin the process of becoming a U.S. citizen. Either abide by the rules or go back home.
People who expect that the rules don't apply to them, but then expect all the rights and benefits of those who DO abide by the rules ARE ingrates. Ungrateful to those who came before them and struggled and fought to make this the kind of place people yearn for. Ungrateful to those of us who work and pay taxes and play by the rules which make the entire system work for everyone else.
The people living in Mexico aren't even part of this discussion.
It's those demonstrating in the streets, giving a big "fuck you" to every law-abiding, tax-paying U.S. citizen. And especially a big "vete a la chingada" to every immigrant who came here and became a naturalized citizen.
If it were cheap and easy to become a citizen, I'd agree with you a little. If rich Mexicans were sneaking into this country, I'd agree with you a little. But someone who risks their lives and safety for the sake of survival, regardless of law, is by no means an ingrate. And their efforts to legally demonstrate, along with hundreds of thousands of legal citizens, is not a fat middle finger to American taxpayers - its exactly what they should be doing given the unindeal circumstances.
On a sidenote, you must post about Mexico's steps to legalize drugs. I'm pretty sure we'll agree on our views there.
If it were cheap and easy to become a citizen, I'd agree with you a little.
But it's not, so f##k the law, right?
If rich Mexicans were sneaking into this country, I'd agree with you a little.
So income level determines whether or not anyone should comply with the law? If you're rich, follow the law; if you're poor, don't bother? Thank you for the clarification.
Chrome:
I'm not disputing the law, I'm disputing RVs labeling of these people as ingrates.
This is another case where we just see things very differently, man.
If these illegal aliens/illegal immigrants were to have "stayed in the shadows" and continued to do their hard work for little pay, it wouldn't be the big brou-ha-ha it is now.
But since they decided they needed to flex their collective muscle as a means to demand privileges they have no right to claim, they are ungrateful for what they have.
By crossing the border illegally and working here, they've already got it better than what they had in Mexico, both in terms of wages and lifestyle. And they've managed to eke out a living and enjoy the benefits of our society while avoiding the responsibilities of it. But now, on top of all that they already have at the expense of American taxpayers, they have the presumptuous arrogance to demand more?!!
That's being an ingrate.
So you wouldn't have so much of a problem with illegal immigrants if they just kept their traps shut?
They should just settle with being illegal and labeled as criminals, or go home to Mexico?
I know this is an impossible dream, but I'd like to find out how much Americans have saved as a result of cheap, illegal labor, and see if Americans would be willing to payback the difference...
Also, I still haven't found the source of those numbers that claim that 95% of warrants are for illegals, nor can the people I've contacted at the LAPD.
By the way, according to Snopes, these "facts" are far from "indisputable", let alone all from the LA Times.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/i...ation/
taxes.asp
Can I hope you'll offer a correction/ retraction?
Not so much. I toldja where I got 'em from. They're disputable, so dispute away. Seems nobody can exactly prove OR disprove them. You can speak with Rick Roberts if you'd like a retraction. But even if the figures he cited were half of what was stated, the point he made is still valid.
Thats sad, RV. You've lost some of my respect on this.
You're still calling something disputable a fact?
Rick Roberts basic argument was pointing out that these were facts that could support an argument of how bad illegal immigrants are.
You're also making the argument that if only 50% of your facts are true, and the other half are not, you can make a valid point.
Sorry dude. I actually believed you'd admit when you were wrong. Thats apparantly not the case.
Now that I've settled the meaning of "ingrate", you've gotta have something else to be upset about.
Dude, you haven't proved that I am wrong. I'm not gonna say I'm wrong if I'm not, nor have I called the disuptable a fact (I didn't say they were indisputable either, those were your words). I'm saying dispute the figures if you like. If the figures Rick quoted are wrong, then I'm happy to back off of 'em. But it seems they're debatable, meaning both sides have some merit.
Snopes even said "Even if the statistic is accurate, however, it is subject to a variety of interpretations."
This is definitely a case where we can both do a lot more homework.
But save it on the sanctimonious lecture.
Point is, you can't disprove a negative.
If these were made up figures, then we'll never find the so called source. Its like saying UFOs exist because they can't be disproven.
Your facts aren't facts, bottom line. Snopes can't dispute them because they can't find contrarian figures. But they also point out that they certainly aren't from the Los Angeles Times.
I don't think this is a moot issue on any level - for you one claimed to "prove me wrong", secondly you make the assertion that its okay to post very questionable statistics and pass them off as facts.
If I'm upset about anything, its that this blog used to be a place for fair debate. Clearly no longer.
How odd.
When you brought up questions about one of these particular "facts," I researched into it and showed you not only where this guy's figure came from (Heather Mac Donald's testimony - certainly not the most solid source), but I also cited several other sources which showed similar statistics.
Your blanket dismissal of the entire issue is sad (the issue being that illegal aliens aren't all here to fulfill the American dream, and many of them have a negative impact on our economy and society).
If you think there's suddenly no longer fair debate here simply because I posted an article by someone whose facts are uncertain (despite the fact that you and I have been having a debate this entire time), then I'm sad to see ya go.
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