So what does the contemporary Roman Catholic church teach about the doctrine of salvation? Are you saved by faith or by works?
Faith without good works is dead. So says James. So says my Church. You need both.
Just makes sense.
St. Paul says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph.2:8-9)
James was teaching that works was a sign that one had faith, not that it was a requirement of salvation. The good news (pun intended) for my Catholic friends is that salvation is by grace through faith and I have no doubt that many have that faith. The sad news is the Catholic Church wants to give itself the authority granted only to Jesus; the forgiveness of sin.
"Eat-the-pudding-eat-the-pudding-eat-the-pudding-
eat-the-pudding-eat-the-pudding-eat-the-pudding-
eat-the-pudding." - Homer Simpson
Faith without good works is dead.
Good works without faith, however, remain good works, so let's not worry about the faith bit.
Without Faith who defines good works ?
Yes, the lefties will cringe at the source of this article. Take the opinions out and the facts are still interesting though.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/...shtml?s=ic&
s=po
The most important take-away to me is that how will Mr. Warner be a viable challenger to Mrs. Clinton? Mr. Warner needed the Clinton’s support to run for Governor, he could not have done it without them. The paradox is that I do not think that Mr. Warner can win the nomination, Mrs. Clinton can. The dilemma is that Mrs. Clinton cannot win the national election, while Mr. Warner would have a chance. How will the Democrats face this paradox? Do the Democrats that post here have a preference?
"Aaaaa! GERMAN potato salad!" - Homer Simpson, upon entering Hell following the delicious smells of BBQ
Without Faith who defines good works ?
With Faith who or what defines good works? If they are good because God says so, then they are only good on God's whim; if they are good without God's consent to their being good, then there exists a standard outside of God by which he is apparently bound (odd for a deity, you might think).
So, while a good atheist like myself can use evidence from humanity and the rest of the animal kingdom to demonstrate concepts such as "evolutionary stable strategies" and the way that apparent moral standards increase in complexity right along with the development of higher brain function, the theist is left with (a) the same argumentative flaw - that is, no absolute basis outside of mankind and the bonus of (b) no way to get one despite the assumption it exists.
On that note, off to bed with me... have a good weekend.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock...003/
0303sbs.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock...97/
9710chap.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock...98/
9804conv.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock...994/
9402vbv.asp
Internet! Is that thing still around?- homer simpson
I stuck this on a post a couple of days ago
Europe is pregnant with Islam and will give a birth to an Islamic nation
sort of backs up your "its the demography stupid" stuff but from the other side. I can't tell if the Islamabad fundy kids are talking peaceful conquest on violent, pr if they are justifying sept 11th or not.
bit worying for us euro's no?
It seems to be talking about an Islamic scholar who is deliberately infiltrating your college system with his acolytes
Good Morning Andy,
Please give examples? Or is good defined as what allows the species to survive?
Andy,
Apply morales to nature, is giving attributes to nature that man has.
Akin to thinking talking nice about your computer will make it work better.(Good Computer) giving names to your cars, and thinking good thought about the copier when you have an important document to copy.
Nature is neither morale or immorale but ammorale.
Brewfan,
Not true. We believe that only God forgives sin.
As far as works goes:
(Phil 2:12) -…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Rom 2:5-6) - …the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
(James 2:14) - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?
(Mt 16:27) - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
(2 Cor. 5:10) - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I assume that you are referring to confession Brewfan. The sacrament comes from the tradition of the Church from the very beginning:
(Matt. 18:1
Again, Jesus gives the apostles authority by stating: Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever y shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.
Confession was always a part of the Church, it is those who broke away who gave up that tradition.
Certainly one doesn't have to have a confessor to confess sins and be forgiven. Just as one doesn't have to go to Church to worship God, but both things give us a better opportunity to be holy.
dave bones,
Are the Muslims starting to worry you now?
Brewfan,
Also, I think Paul was clearly telling us that it isn't about being good enough or trying hard enough to be saved. In other words faith must come first. Works alway follow true faith. But not the other way around. You don't attain faith by good works. See?
dave bones there's no reason to worry about islamists, Chirac threatens he's willing to use nukes if attacked, not sure if that's only if france is attacked or the e.u. in general. anyway it's pretty big talk comming from such a little weasel.
dave - the french are actually arogant enough to do that as it wouldn't actually require much more than a little button pushing. lol
Here's the contradiction I see from the first link Patrick posted:
The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace.
But then goes on to say:
Following Paul, the Catholic Church teaches that justification comes by faith. Only it says that it doesn’t come through faith alone.
Then what else does it come by?
Regarding your verses, you take them out of context. In Phil 2:12 Paul is teaching about obedience and uses the phrase 'work out you salvation' to mean they should pursue their sanctification, not their salvation. In Rom 2:5-6 Paul is describing what happens when grace is rejected. In James 2:14 you need to read through to verse 18 where James writes "I will show you my faith by my works". He wasn't contradicting the Pauline doctrine of salvation, he was refuting a perversion of it. Matt 16.27 and 2 Cor 5:10 have absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of salvation. They do however describe the consequences of rejecting the Gospel.
I said:
The sad news is the Catholic Church wants to give itself the authority granted only to Jesus; the forgiveness of sin.
What I should have said is:
The sad news is the Catholic Church wants to give itself the authority granted only to Jesus; the forgiveness of sin unto salvation.
Sorry for the confusion. Regarding the forgiveness of sin, it was accomplished at the cross. When you profess your faith in Christ's redeeming work you are saved once and for all time and you can not lose your salvation. If you are talking about confession in the light of 1 John 1:9, then we agree!
Thanks for the links PatrickP. Very informative.
Whyizzit that in the faith and works debate, people tend to leave out a significant portion of Ephesians 2?
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:8-10
It isn't an either or proposition. We do both but only after salvation does God take note of our works. Salvation is by faith alone but that is not the end of the story. It's not fire insurance. There are things God intends for Christians to DO. P/protestants seem to hang on to sola fide so much they miss this entirely and RCCs seem to hang on to Holy Tradition so much they miss it as well. (Please to note the seem to's in there as I know this is not true of all P/protestants or RCCs)
I, btw, am Eastern Orthodox by spirit and worship in a non denom evangelical charismatic church as I wait for my husband to come to Orthodoxy with me. ~wink~
U.P Man - check your library, if you like, for Matthew Ridley's book The Origins of Virtue : Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation.
It's a bit of a trudge when it gets into game theory, but other than that is a pretty quick read. You'll see that the skill to commit, and ability to detect (and thus generally disapprove of), cheating, stealing, and other non-altruistic behaviors increases as the complexity of the brain increases.
Granted, humans have the most complex moral codes (primarily because the existence of culture allows us to just make stuff up, like don't eat unclean animals), but read the book and you'll see we're just another higher rung on a ladder of development.
Or, maybe, despite all evidence to the contrary, we're the handiwork of a magical, inexplicable deity.
Either one.
After being on both sides of the fence I see that we are saying the same thing in different ways.
In the Protestant faith we say that if we are saved we will do good works because that is what Christ asks of us.
In the Catholic faith we say that we offer our good works because of our faith. That it is a part of our salvation.
The only difference I see is that in the Protestant faith they teach you cannot lose your salvation no matter what you do.
It isn't about earning our way to heaven for us. We know Christ died for that, but that our faith and good works speak to our salvation.
I just don't think it helps to argue about it. (unless one wants to learn about the other faith) That is what Satan wants..division. I think it is more important work together than to try and prove each other wrong.
"Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever y shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. "
what does this mean? What are you binding and loosing here? Are there bad things running around in heaven that you have to bind?
Are the Muslims worrying me. Click on the post you'll see I'm asking them, same as usual. can't tell if the guys are saying "conquer" through love or violence. What do you think it says?
Hey I just came back from the "Can you please not draw pictures of our prophet with a bomb on his head if we ask you nicely? rally.
Guess who I saw there? Christopher Hitchens! I told him about your blog babes!
what's up with this?
http://www.stevejanke.com/archiv.../
marchsperm.jpg
apparently something to do with the opening ceremony at Turin.
its the "lets go and make babies!" guys from the Woody Allen film.
That is what Satan wants..division.
What I think Satan wants is for people to believe they have to earn their way into heaven because that is the one sure way he has of keeping us separated from God.
Let's get some props for the concept of predestination - your place in heaven or hell is determined before you're even born, and there ain't single thing you can do about it.
That was a popular and accepted concept back in the day before it fell out of favor.
Why? I dunno.
But if it was valid then, why not now?
dave bones
LOL...I forgot about that...he's having a caption contest you ought to post that.
Brewfan,
Like I said, we don't believe you earn your way to heaven.
dave bones,
How funny! I bet he ran to his computer to check me out! Heh.
Although I appreciate what Hitchens has written in support of the war, I never liked him much.
I bet Hitchens WOULD like to be able to "check you out" on his computer RWS, but that's one of his issues...
Brewfan- a brewfan in my country is someone who drinks super strength lager, its wierd seeing a brewfan posting about Christianity.
Oh and Satan doesn't want you separate, or for you to believe you got to earn your way into heaven.
He just wants you to have a good time.
one life...I'm gonna live it up...
can you post a little list of your favourite milblogs again babes?
After reading A Citizen of Mosul I'm getting too depressed and I want to read about US soldiers who believe they are doing the right thing over there.
Mosul, is that where "river bend" ran off to after daddy's employer Saddam was offered the chance to crawl out of his hole in the ground or eat "pineapple"?
"river bend" = bahgdad burning
But if it was valid then, why not now?
Anita,
It is still valid and embraced by many protestant denominations. Its based on Ephesians 1:4-6 and other verses. This doctrine is reconciled with the doctrine of free will in that God foreknows who is going to be saved.
a brewfan in my country is someone who drinks super strength lager, its wierd seeing a brewfan posting about Christianity.
This BrewFan is a Milwaukee Brewers Fan, although I enjoy a nice ice cold beer every so often. BTW, Christianity is a 'come as you are' faith. God asks no changes be made to receive His grace. BrewFans and daves are always welcome.
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/a...ves/
004159.html
There are a bunch there dave bones.
The one thing that there is no argument on is that God's love and grace is for everyone. His love is so great and so encompassing it is for each every soul. All those yearning to be free of burden and sorrow, his love is there to wrap around you like a warm blanket.
You will know God by his peace. You will know him in others by their love.
I will know Ace by his picture that you will email me.
Ooops.
laurawtips@gmail.com
I will not circulate it.
You will know him in others by their love.
Hmmm, so all others, regardless of their faith or lack of it, that demonstrate love for their fellow man will be proof of god?
Wow, I bet that pisses off all the good folks who don't follow your god but have one of their own (being one of those with no god, believe whatever you like).
I like the way C.S. Lewis said it. faith and works are like the blades on scissors - which one is doing the cutting?
Philippians 2:12-13
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
So who in the passage above is doing the work?
Real faith will produce works, while salvation results in works and is not dependant on them, one can choose to throw salvation away, to deny the faith and reject God. I think that would be very difficult for one to do though.
That's my 2-1/2 cents worth - sorry no refunds
LauraW,
Sorry! I was just kidding about the photo. I meant to get right back on at Ace's and say that. I just wanted to scare him.
I went out with some girlfriends and completely forgot about it.
since i was brought up as a protestant, i am mystified that the catholic church doesn't inform its members about prophecy - because GOD does intend to use the predictions of the future to verify what He said is true, otherwise GOD would be permitting confusion to reign because any joe smuck could say he has messages from GOD and there would be no way to verify if GOD did indeed provide the message.
examples of these false teachers are jim jones who convinced about 900 followers to commit suicide by drinking poisonous kool-aid somewhere in south america in 1978.
another example was the case of applewhite(?=name) who convinced his followers near san diego in california in the late 1990's [who were computer programmers] that ufo's were hiding behind some comet that was approaching earth and that they should commit suicide so the ufo's could bring them to happier places.
and i am not from one of the 7 mainline protestant denominations.
I think we are taught about prophecy. I didn't know until I became Catholic that of all the religions of the world, Christ was the only one predicted. The only one where we told he would come.
hello RightWingSparkle
about 25 percent of the Bible is prophecy. many of these prophecies are about the identity of who the Messiah is going to be. one of them in the book of Daniel, which was written after the Jews were the first time disbanded as a nation and carried away into captivity, specified that the Messiah will appear in Israel 483 years after the government commands that Jerusalem is to be restored and rebuilt[the language of the Bible specifies 69 weeks = (7 + 62) of years] this is found in Daniel 9 verses 24 -27.
you can read about what GOD predicts in prophecy by the website www.jvim.com
also the author Hal Lindsey wrote a book The Late Great Planet Earth. in addition Hal Lindsey's writings on current events and Bible Prophecy can be found among the hyperlinks in the Drudge report.l
GOD bless you
Its me who should be sorry RWS- curiosity got the upper hand last night.
Wouldn't be the first time...
If you did have a pic, it wouldn't be right to share it, anyway.
I wouldn't have!
I didn't know until I became Catholic that of all the religions of the world, Christ was the only one predicted. The only one where we told he would come.
And given that millions of Jews still don't think the Messiah has come, that statement has very little meaning indeed.
I've heard many Christian use this argument as if it actually means something or lends any support to the belief system. Wow, the holy book contains a prophecy that millions can't agree upon; color me impressed.
You'd think one interested in world religions might be more impressed by the religion of Mithras, one of the pre-Christian pagan religions, that had such exciting concepts as virgin birth, resurrection, and a return for a final cleaning out of sin...
andy
your statement 'holy book contins a prophect that millions can't agree upon'
the fact is since we have newspapers all you have to do is read and it and then we will know if the Bible is trustworthy. and there is plenty more than one prophecy - remember i mentioned the in the total amount of Bible verses 25 percent of these are prophecies.
this is a similar situation to when there was a time when a significant percentage of people believed a heavy weighted object fell faster than a light weight object. then Galileo simply went up the tower of pisa and dropped two objects of different weights and found they fell at the same rate. those who changed there opinion because of what Galileo demonstrated certainly showed themselves psychological flexible and thus prepared to have an easier life than those who after knowing about Galileo's demonstration and refused to alter thier thinking was showing they are psychologically inflexible and since it was proving to be difficult to make necessary changes in their thinking it is highly probable they had a difficult life.
I don't think "agreeing on it" has anything to do with the truth of it.
red state -
Please provide a list of these prophecies and, unlike the so-called predictions of Nostradamus, let's hope they're specific and clear, and not simply interpreted after the fact, as that's not prophecy, it's fitting your beliefs to the reality.
RWS -
Perhaps not, but then neither does your belief that it is true. It cuts both ways.
I think Jesus was a real person, a rabble rouser around whom a terrific (albeit not terribly original) legend was built. I see zero in the way of proof of divinity though; however, I'm not the one making extraordinary claims.
Hell, if the Mormons can believe that Joseph Smith nonsense within the space of a century, imagine what twenty centuries of Chinese whispers can accomplish with the "Son of God."
andy i will be happy to give one or two examples.
one
in Revealations it specifies that
1. everyone on earth will see in the city of Jerusalem 2 people who are dead and will not let these 2 people be buried
2. because these 2 people are dead all the people will give gifts to each other
3. 3 1/2 days after they are killed these 2 people (who are prophets of GOD) will arise from the dead and ascend into heaven.
4. prior to the deaths of these 2 people, they will be protected from those who would harm them by lightning from heaven consuming the opponents of these 2 prophets.
[i want to note when it became common knowledge that the earth is spherical - the critics of the Bible tried to make fun of the Bible as being ridiculous because how could everyone see 2 dead people in Jerusalem]
well GOD had the last laugh
because satalite communication technology became a fact of human history when telstar was launced about 1966.
and when yassir arafat died his funeral held only a short distance from Jerusalem in november 2004. satalite communication made it so people around the world could be eyewitnesses to yassir arafats funeral
because of work i wasn't able to watch arafat's funeral, however in the 1980's when i lived in california, i did get to see the funeral in new dehli of the assasinated prime minister ghandi (who was an airplane pilot before he succeded his mother as prime minister)
the second illustration of prophecy will be in the next submission
second illustration of prophecy
it says in Zechariah, that EVERY nation on the earth is going to gather its armies against Israel - then the Messiah will appear and destroy those who gather against Israel.
with recent history of the last part of the 20th century, the way the united nations always have lopsided votes that are against Israel can any one doubt that what Zechariah is incorrect.
with the democratic party and their attitude Sen Joe Libermann being a traitor, and the dems candidate john kerry saying the Israeli building a security fence is a threat to world peace, and the dems bill clinton saying that Israel just has to get use to rocket attacks against their citizens as a part of life, and at the dem national headquarters in washington dc in june 2005 permitted hate israel groups pass out literature saying Israel was behind 9/11 on the property of the democratic party(their headquarters) - i have no doubt that with a democratic president the United States will turn on Israel
red state -
Which chapter and verse contains that prophecy, and is it clear that this is what the text says or is this the interpretation provided by you and/or your church?
[i want to note when it became common knowledge that the earth is spherical
Eratosthenes of Cyrene calculated the circumference of a spherical Earth in the second century BC, long before the Bible was compiled by the fathers of the Catholic Church.
I also don't see how the deaths of terrorist Arafat and Gandhi being seen on television fulfill any of the prophecy you quoted, nor do I remember anyone giving me gifts when Arafat went night-night permanently.
Your second example is your interpretation for an event that has not happened yet. If and when all the nations of the world turn on Israel, I'll be happy to talk further.
i have to correct myself - it was indian prime minister indira ghandi whose funeral i saw in california
the verses are found in Revealations chapter 11 verses 9-11. also the second is in Zechariah chapter 12 verses 2-3.
about eratosthenes, there was a greek who proposed that matter was composed of atoms, but it wasn't until centuries later when dalton reintroduced the atomic hypothesis in about 1805. for centuries aristotle, plato etc engaged in much talk without verification
about arafat - the Bible said and was written before 100AD that all people on earth would look upon (that means they have to use their eyes) 2 dead people. now we all know television was not available in 100AD. in fact television did not become an operational electrical engineering accomplishment until sometime in the 20th century. in addition the capablity to view events anywhere on the earth while it was happening became a completed operational engineering accomplishment when the telstar satalite was launced around 1966.
arafat was an example that i used. as another example within the next week and half from my writing this submission at this moment anyone can watch the 2006 winter olympics in turin italy, even though many Americans during this week and a half will remain within the boundaries of the United States. and these Americans is able to view the 2006 winter olympics because of satalite communication engineering.
SO AS THE BIBLE SAID IT HAS COME TRUE.
andy
i just noticed your saying that no one gave you gifts after arafat's death.
but arafat never satisfied even one of the qualifications that identifies who these 2 people are:
first statement that identifies these 2 people that i mentioned was they will be protected because lightning will consume anyone who tried to harm these 2 people while they were prophecying and witnessing in Jerusalem. since i now have my Bible with me i can mention everything that will be true of these 2 people
first these 2 people will witness for a total of 1260 days before they are killed (arafat followed islam, not judaism or christianity so arafat would not witness 1260 days) [verse 3]
AND
second statement about these 2 people: if any man tries to harm them, fire will come out of their mouth and devour them, so shall any man who would harm them die [verse 5] (arafat doesn't qualify with this requirement either)
AND
third statement about these 2 people:
these people will also have the power to make sure it will not rain, have power to turn the waters into blood, and to smite the earth with plaques as often as they please.(arafat does not satisfy this qualification that indicates the identity of who these 2 people will be) [verse 6]
AND
fourth statement about these 2 people: at the end of the 1260 days these people will be killed. and they will be killed by someone who is described by the adjective 'the beast'. [ the statements that details information on this individual called the beast appear in many parts of the Bible such as in the prophet Daniel, and in Matthew and in Revelation] (arafat died of a medical condition he was not murdered - so overall it is understandable why no one gave you gifts andy when yassir arafat died)
So, errr, let me get this straight: your proof for the validity of prophecy is to quote a prophecy and then provide examples of deaths that DON'T show it to be a valid example of prophecy?
Forgive me, for I am but a simple atheist, but that's about the damn kookiest thing I've read in a long time.
I'm sure you're a very nice person and a charming conversationalist, but don't be offended if I back away from you very slowly at the next dinner party.
andy
you made the claim that because of arafat's death you did not get any gifts.
so using what you said, i provided the reasons it couldn't be arafat by comparing what is specifically stated and find that none of the 4 specifications were satisfied.
in stead of being implicit, i will be explicit
the hypothesis to be tested is, if the Bible is true, since the Bible does make very definite statements what an all knowing GOD claims will occur in the course of human events, then the method to provide VERIFICATION is to observe human history.
indeed, the claim that everyone on earth will see 2 dead people on earth is a specific statement. it does provide a way to falsify the claim just like the scientific method would do. the question becomes 'is it false that human beings will observe with their eyes 2 dead people in Jerusalem as it is happening?' the sheer fact that the time did come where engineering was able to accomplish satalite televised images around the world despite the fact the earth is spherical. all i have to do is come up with one example that the abilty to observe events in remote parts of the globe is true. i gave as an example that any body can check is true, since everyone can turn on their television sets and see the 2006 winter olympics which is being held in turin italy, and people in parts of the earth that is remote relative to italy can observe what is happening almost instantaneously. so everyone can judge for themselves - they can't deny that it is indeed a fact that they or anyone else can observe events in remote parts of a spherical earth almost as soon as it happens.
so the Bible has been verified on this specific point.
so using what you said, i provided the reasons it couldn't be arafat by comparing what is specifically stated and find that none of the 4 specifications were satisfied.
Then why did you propose Arafat when I asked for an example? I think my request was quite clear.
indeed, the claim that everyone on earth will see 2 dead people on earth is a specific statement. it does provide a way to falsify the claim just like the scientific method would do.
Oh, indeed, it's very specific. Unfortunately, millions upon millions of people do not have access to television or newspapers, let alone sufficient food and shelter, and thus the statement of "everyone" is false on its very face.
Now, this is the part where you'll say the specific "everyone" isn't really that specific.
It's ok, I realize that people who believe in prophecy have to play semantic shell games to keep their fragile belief system intact. If the Heaven's Gate cult thinks Comet Hale-Bopp was proof of their prophecies, then why should I be surprised that you're excited about overly vague statements and satellites?
Look, it's a free country, be as wacky as you like, but I'm still backing away from you at the next dinner party.
It's Revelation. Not Revealations. Sheesh, I know that and I'm an athiest.
andy
i you are the one specifying you did not get presents with death of arafat, while i just mentioned arafat and the 2006 winter olympics are examples where anyone on a spherical earth can observe events in a remote part of the earth as the events happen.
i have seen photographs where people in primitive housing with television sets. in addition the abiltiy already exist where a community can look at one screen just like a multitude of people can at the same look at a new york stock exchange ticker tape reading. [so it isn't as far fetched as you try to imply] the actual quote in the Bible uses the words 'men from every people, tribe, lanquage and nation'[verse 8]
some other place i did mention heavens gate cult as taking someones word, when ufo's are part of the paranormal and therefore fraud. in the case of Revealations it mentions in the first century AD when no one had not even imagined protons, neutrons and electrons what would occur in human events which was made possible after engineering was advanced enough in the 20th century [that is 19 centuies after the prediction]where engineering provided the means to do as the Bible said would be possible
thank you for when you said that i am probably a nice person but you would avoid me. the truth is you probably would be a nice person but my spouse and i have our young daughter to occupy our time and we hope in the future our young daughter will have younger brothers and/or sisters - so it could be hard to find more than a fleeting few moments to spend with you.
your statements using terms like 'fragile shell games' and 'belief systems' sound like maybe the ad hominem fallacy. evertything is a belief system, i just think when 1st century people who could not imagine the fascinating things of electical engineering make reference about what electrical engineering did accomplish approximately 19 centuries later makes me think there is a high probabity that they were directed what to write by an intelligent being. everyone knows they have difficulty to predict many things that will be in their future only 24 hours later let alone 19 centuries later. i read once how in the past when people were asked what they thought the future would be like in say 25 years never imagined things like cell phones.
shannon your have the right spelling. thank you for pointing it out to me.
GOD bless you shannon and andy and everyone else.
Of course some of it was ad hominem, which isn't a real argument... it's ad hominem. That doesn't, despite the misunderstanding of so many that enjoy the misapplication of logical fallacy, mean that the rest of an argument is invalid.
For example, if I am talking to someone and say "The Earth orbits around the sun and you're a dumbass." The fact that I call this person a dumbass doesn't suddenly make geocentrism the order of the day.
Anyway, trust me on this, not everyone has access to television. For example, you might have heard of the Amish, right here in the United States, that shun electrical power (and I've yet to find a TV run off horse dung, but - man - when I do!).
Best of luck with your efforts to grow the family. I've got two beautiful kids and love every moment of seeing them grow.
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