a man does not give up his life for another man that he hates or sees as lesser than himself
Um, isn't that exactly what Christianty says Jesus did? You know "for all fall short of the glory of God."
Just sayin' is all.
As for the rest of it, you seem to be saying that when good things happen it's because God is there and when bad things happen it's because of Satan. I thought Republicans were supposed to be keen on personal responsibility?
Jesus gave up his life for us because he loved us. Quite different.
I guess Andy isn't keen on reading. Did you miss the free will part? Your snarkiness is uncalled for.
I'm not religious but I certainly don't feel the desire to convince others their faith is wrong.
Your email to Mr. Cohen is very nicely said.
Btw, I didn't mean to imply your faith is wrong. I just don't happen to share it but have no desire to create a confrontation over it.
I didn't take that way at all. I thought your response was very nice.
I guess Andy isn't keen on reading. Did you miss the free will part? Your snarkiness is uncalled for.
I'm all about free will (unless of course it's merely an illusion that arises from a deterministic universe, but it sure feels real).
However, when every good thing is attributed to God and every bad thing to Satan, as if their "being there" is the root cause, you're not lending a whole lot of support to any free will argument.
Now, if the argument is that in doing good things we emulate God and in doing bad things we emulate Satan, then it's rather pointless to say that they were both there as their presence had no appreciable impact.
And if you want to say that God was there the whole time but he let Satan get away with slaughtering six million innocent people, well, then your theology is rather sick.
It all comes back to that pesky "Problem of Evil."
I'm not religious but I certainly don't feel the desire to convince others their faith is wrong.
Usually I don't either. You won't see me bring up the topic at work or at client sites or at a local bar with strangers or walking down the street or with my dentist or whatever. However, when they put forth assertions about their chosen deity and its role in the world, I have little issue with a response.
You might have seen me say it before, but I afford religious belief no special treatment in the hierarchy of beliefs. If you post that the moon is made of cheese, I'll argue you are wrong. If you post your omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god was present while six million people were murdered, I'll point out that your god is kind of a nutter.
Have a nice evening.
"Kind of a nutter", huh? Charming as ever. You clearly have no idea of the Christianity concept of good and evil and how it fits in with God's creation of man.
Believing in God is not about proof. It's about faith. You clearly can't prove He doesn't exist yet choose to belittle those that do. I struggle with the question all the time and wish I could find the faith that RWS and others have. Until I know with absolute certainty, I have no right to admonish others.
"Kind of a nutter", huh? Charming as ever.
It could be worse. I consider those German citizens, fallible humans all, who watched and cheered to be accessories to murder. I let "the all-powerful god who did nothing" off with being called a nutter.
I can think of much worse, but RWS probably doesn't allow such language.
You clearly have no idea of the Christianity concept of good and evil and how it fits in with God's creation of man.
Oh, I do, it's just that mine relies on reason and logic and evidence, not pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking and justifications by ignorance.
So sue me.
Believing in God is not about proof. It's about faith.
Good on ya. Alas, so it goes with every religion, leaving each of you with the same thing: internally logically inconsistent characters that you somehow believe are real despite any empirical evidence, meaning that none of you can possibly provide the littlest bit of support that your god is the right one.
Sorry, but not even the best used car salesman could convince me to buy that lemon.
You clearly can't prove He doesn't exist yet choose to belittle those that do.
Um, no one proves he exists.
However, what I think you mean is that I belittle those who believe even though they can't prove it.
Actually, I more belittle the belief... I can't disprove invisible pink unicorns, that Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his prophet, or that there's a lovely bone china teapot in orbit around Mars as we speak (thanks, Mr. Dawkins!)... however, I can assign probabilities to these things and pass judgment accordingly.
I struggle with the question all the time and wish I could find the faith that RWS and others have.
You wish you could just believe without evidence? You wish you could just turn off your rational faculties and accept what you've been fed by society rather than thinking through things on your own?
That's very, very, very - did I say very? - sad. With a capital S. And A. And D.
You've basically said you don't like being a thinking individual. That you question is positively beautiful; that you wish you didn't is tragic.
An aside: before I got married in a wee English village, the wife-to-be and I met with the vicar to talk about our upcoming event. He knew I was an atheist. We had a nice chat about it all and at the end he said (paraphrasing) "I disagree with your conclusion, but I can tell you've put a lot of thought into your giving up of belief, which is more than I can say for most everyone in this village."
You want to be a villager. I want to be a thinker.
Until I know with absolute certainty, I have no right to admonish others.
Nonsense. Nothing is known with absolute certainty, even science admits that. Nothing is ever proven; ideas just fit the observations so well as to make questioning them ridiculous (unless you're into ID, in which case questioning things
Nonsense. Nothing is known with absolute certainty, even science admits that. Nothing is ever proven; ideas just fit the observations so well as to make questioning them ridiculous (unless you're into ID, in which case questioning things just makes you look ridiculous).
I don't know with absolute certainty that there was no UFO behind comet Hale-Bopp. Maybe they had Klingdon cloaking technology! But I'll still happily call the Heaven's Gate members "complete freakin' idiots" for killing themselves to reach the level beyond human.
Anyway, look, you seem like someone willing to think about things. Don't let my attitude steer you from questioning everything. And don't let the glurge of the "god was at Auschwitz" happy happy joy joy letter steer you from the same.
Andy, Screw you. The reason I struggle with it is precisely because I think about it and try to rationalize a faith without proof.
There are better philosophers than us that you should probably research. And yes, there are even, gasp, scientists that believe in God. Go ridicule them, if you must. Saying that you can't disprove invisible purple unicorns don't exist is the logic of child.
You have a nice evening.
Andy, Screw you.
If I could do that, I'd never leave the house.
Anyway, I thought I was rather offering an olive branch with the assertion that questioning is good and blind acceptance is bad. I can see you just want to rejoin the herd, so be my guest.
The reason I struggle with it is precisely because I think about it and try to rationalize a faith without proof.
That you find this a bad thing is, as I said, very sad. That you would belittle and discount your most valuable and powerful faculty as a human being, the ability to reason, and exchange it for toeing the line of blind indoctrination, is a tragedy.
There are better philosophers than us that you should probably research.
I'm quite a fan of philosophy, thanks. In fact, getting into the study of it is what helped cement by deconversion out of the silliness of Catholicism into the empiricism of atheism.
And yes, there are even, gasp, scientists that believe in God.
Never said there weren't. The best anyone can do and remain rational is to be a deist, although it's still an invocation of an unnecessary agent. Most Christians are quite rational in their day-to-day life - they trust science to make the car run, power up the computer, and keep the satellites in the sky - but let it say anything about origins, and - oh no! - evil all around!
For a good example, take Dr. Kenneth Miller. He's a Christian and a staunch supporter of evolution. His book "Finding Darwin's God" is a good introductory treatment of evolutionary biology... at the end, though, he - reluctant to let go of his god-belief - falls back onto the "god of the gaps" argument, which he surely know is philosophically unsound.
Such is the power of wanting to believe. A rational man can, in the end, be reduced to seeking out any irrational excuse to hold onto god.
Go ridicule them, if you must. Saying that you can't disprove invisible purple unicorns don't exist is the logic of child.
No, it's a logical comparison. Two supposed entities, each with absolutely no evidence of their existence.
Here, I'll make it even better: you can't prove that Binky the Magic Space Clown didn't create the whole universe 15 minutes ago - each and every one of us with all our supposed memories intact.
Do you think that someone who believes in Binky is irrational or not?
You have a nice evening.
Thanks, back at ya. And, please, keep up the questioning, no matter where it leads you; if you give up the gift of reason, that would be the worst offense.
Here's how it works andy.
God created our universe. Earth, man, woman, angels, all manner of devils, love, hate, good, evil, the whole enchilada. As part of his creation he gave mankind free will. Put in simple terms, that means we all have the ability to Choose to manifest good behavior or bad behavior.
Then, as now, He watched and is watching to see how we do with all this Power to be. One or the other or somewhere in between. Good or Bad.
Because of our personal work here on earth, we end up on the mount or in a pit; sharing our choices with those others of our ilk.
When you walk down the beach, look back and see one set of footprints in the sand, it is not Your footprints. It's the spirit of the one whom carried you.
Which set of prints follow you, andy?
I have so much proof of the existance of God it aint funny.
Andy would just pooh pooh it all of course as coincidence or happenstance so I won't bother. But I got me some proof baby.
Me too, sparkleista. And I think it takes some doing to miss it all. The not seeing is purposeful. And from whom does this purpose spring?
Let's see, whose benifit arises from those not in the sight of God?
Hmmmm........?
Wes -
God created our universe. Earth, man, woman, angels, all manner of devils, love, hate, good, evil, the whole enchilada.
Says you. Your evidence?
Once you've got some empirical evidence to support that, we can move on. However, you'll note that Blake says it's all about faith.
I have so much proof of the existance of God it aint funny.
Odd, as I said, Blake seems to think it takes faith and not empiricism... we seem to have a disagreement between you two.
Oh well, you two figure it out and then get back to me.
And I think it takes some doing to miss it all. The not seeing is purposeful. And from whom does this purpose spring?
Pssst... little secret for ya: I was a Roman Catholic for 18 years, a doubting Catholic for 4 years, and then an atheist. The only purposeful thing I see here is theistic "willing dispensation of disbelief."
Guess it would be fair to say you fell, right andy?
Please explain your emperical measurement of Love, andy. Oh, I guess that can't exist either?
Hint; it's both faith and proof together.
I hope this sheds a little light on the Vatican's agreements with the Nazi's.
http://www.americamagazine.org/g...131&
issueID=448
As a Catholic, I am ashoamed of this chapter in the church's history.
RWS-
I think your letter was wonderful. Perhaps I or the other people here may want to pick your thoughts apart. I will not - as I respect whatever you believe.
I bought the Ann Frank book for my 10 year old daughter and read it en route back from our cottage over the long weekend. (I had never read it but knew the story)..
Just wanted to pipe in to say that. 
Please explain your emperical measurement of Love, andy. Oh, I guess that can't exist either?
Of course love can be measured, and has been through MRIs, EEG, and biochemical assay. Feelings of love are indicated by predictable and identifable patterns in the above.
Now, could the person be having a different feeling that in their specific case causes the same indicators. Sure, it's possible, but since we can't know the mind of another we have to accept their word that they are feeling love.
With god belief, the best we could do is demonstrate that some religious activities (e.g. prayer) have quantifiable effects - and they do in such things as the relaxation response, but meditating achieves the same thing.
So, is it more likely that God answers undirected meditation (which makes no sense) or that prayer and meditation happen to cause similar biological reactions?
If you're going to bring up silly arguments, at least make them original ones. Next you'll tell me that I can't prove the wind exists because I can't see it.
Hint; it's both faith and proof together.
Hint: "the proof of faith" is an oxymoron.
Hey, maybe we're all just brains in a jar being fed electrochemical impluses to provoke the experience that all of this is real. Well, I can't provide I'm not a brain in a jar, so it must be true!
Uh, "provide" = "prove."
In my tapdancing on al-Zarqawi's grave, I got a little overexcited with the keys.
paul,
Did you even read the Jerusalem Post link???
Documents tell a different story.
andy,
God does work in mysterious ways. For instance, you may be the reason someone converts to Catholicism. see thread below.
Heh.
Sparkle,
I was only able to read the first page of the Jerusalem post article. The second page returned an "internal server error" however the part I read merely mentioned that Jewish newspapers at the time praised the actions of Pope Pious XII. Given the scope of the Nazi's crimes I find that the few protests that the vatican made to the German gov't falls far short of what was necessary. Some individual Catholics and a few clergy defied the Pope and acted heroically against this evil but by and large the Pope and the Church stood mute. The article I linked to was published in America, The National Catholic Weekly. It details the concordat of 1933 between the Vatican and the Reich. In exchange for state funding of Catholic schools and Catholic education in public schools under instructors approved by Catholic bishops the church required it's bishops to swear an oath of loyalty to the Reich and its gov't.
I studied the holocaust in a Catholic University with a Catholic priest as my professor and no attempt was made to whitewash this piece of history. I think Catholics need to be aware of the truth in this matter.
God does work in mysterious ways. For instance, you may be the reason someone converts to Catholicism.
Hmmm, I've also been the reason others have rejected theism... looks like it's one step forward, two steps back for God.
The Catholic Church was slighty more vocal in opposing the acts of the Nazi's than they were in their objections to the Iraq war.
I don't blame them for the atrocities in either case.
Egads! Andy just devoted a post to me on his blog. Apparently, since I'm undecided, I've given up my "faculties of reason in favor of embracing the lunacy of blind faith."
Is that the fake but accurate thing going on?
Blake,
You have to understand. There is an great struggle going in andy between satan and his former conscience that believed in God. Everytime he is faced with something that points to God or someone's faith he feels compelled to rant about the silliness of it so he can justify his unbelief.
Don't worry about it. He "protests too much" imo. He would ignore us if it didn't bother him so much.
I think God wants andy back. We shall see if andy ever chooses to see the light.
Egads! Andy just devoted a post to me on his blog.
Devoted is a bit much... I spent more text talking about what I've made for dinner the last three nights.
Apparently, since I'm undecided, I've given up my "faculties of reason in favor of embracing the lunacy of blind faith."
No, in all of my comments, to which I linked, I said that questioning is good, very good.
What is bad is that you seem to be upset about being inquisitive, hence my condemnation of the apparent desire to be able to have simple, blind faith (which is the inverse of reason).
I think it's great that you're questioning things, and have said so. You're the one who apparently doesn't think it's great.
Paul,
I think the truth is somewhere in between the two articles. Some spoke out more than others. Given the horror of it, certainly not enough. Many gave thier lives for the Jews though. The Church is not just the Pope. It is the people as well. But as I said in my post, all generations ignore evil. Sometimes we don't see the big picture until we are far removed from it.
No Andy,
You specific implication is that because I seek to understand faith, I am therefore being unreasonable (giving up my faculties of reason). Let's just drop this for now. Debating via comment threads for long periods can get tiresome. It would be better verbally with some nice wine.
You're right, devoted may be too strong a word. You just mentioned me in a post about me is better.
Blake -
I just don't think there's much to understand about faith. Anyone can lay claim to certainty through faith and none can demonstrate they are more right than the other.
Anyway, we can drop it. Next time you're headed out to Denver or the area, let me know and drinks are on me.
Actually, I will be in Denver next week but unfortunately, for sad reasons. Thanks for the offer though. Same goes to you if you're ever in the Dallas area.
Ah, sorry to hear that (about the sad reasons).
If you have some free time in the end, let me know and I'll pull together some of the local bloggers for a beverage or fifteen.
I appreciate the sentiment and offer again but the time will be devoted to family.
OK, no worries. Next time. I never turn down the chance to turn someone into an atheist. 
Ugh, nothing worse than an evangelical athiest! Conversion begins tomorrow.
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