Sarah, thanks for your visits and for the comment. You're welcome to come and share ideas anytime.
Have a wonderful holiday!
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Sarah
http://www.thetreadmillguide.com
Jeanne, 
Glad to hear it, Robyn!
Great, Jean. That would work for me.
Thanks, Jeanne! Your words encourage me, especially through busy days!
The top of the sidebar would work. I don't know about you, but I never look at the footer.
Robyn,
I, too, believe that I am the better for reading your blog and receiving the insights you've shared with me here in comments, and I unquestionably hold you in high regard, as well. Thanks again for making your blog such a welcoming place!
I do love the brain you drew, Jean. You were kind to share the info on how to use the picture. I'll have to study how to put that in a Blogger header...
I could put the credit in my sidebar or a footer. Would that work for you?
I'm glad you like the picture.
I've given it a Creative Commons license, which means anyone can use it as long as they attribute it to cheerfulmonk, link it to the page on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8185675@N07/
2764052220/), and say it has a Creative Commons license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/
deed.en). The attribution would look something like
cheerfulmonk. Creative Commons license.
These links work fine when I put the above lines in WordPress, but for some reason the cheerfulmonk link doesn't work here. HaloScan has truncated it to http://www.flickr.com/photos/8185675. It needs the full reference, http://www.flickr.com/photos/818...N07/2764052220/
. If you decide to use it and have problems, please let me know.
Jeanne, I have so enjoyed your feedback on this because I highly respect you. I believe what you said earlier does connect so much more to literary expression. This is not a topic I would have broached without my worry about what Jean thought about that quote. Turns out she was not offended at all.
I'm the beneficiary in many ways because every time I come back to comment I see that wonderful picture of the brain Jean drew. I like because it has personality. I wish I could put it on my blog header.
Most of all have been the rich conversations I've had with others. I have benefited from your perspective and from many other readers' thoughts. Above all else, I want to be gentle with my readers from all perspectives!
Robyn,
Being inclusive and welcoming is indeed important -- particularly in such a personal medium as blogging. Perhaps the thinking expressed in my first comment would be more appropriate to other, more formal, modes of literary expression. After all, in blogging, it's far more important to make a connection with our reader and build community than it is to create a literary masterpiece. Of course, we still want to write well when we blog, but there's little question that blogging is one of the more casual forms of written expression.
Thanks so much for your gracious acceptance of my differing opinion! (That's one way you make me feel welcome!)
Hi Jeanne, I think expressing your ideas about this topic and adding from your experiences brings so much more depth to the discussion. I welcome more than my own view since one view is very limited.
I thought you were missing my point that I wanted to be welcoming to folks. Communication is a little harder with just words and so my thought is to go as far as you can to be inclusive. Lip service, no matter if it comes through empty words or on paper, doesn't go far and I know that is your philosophy, too. We are very much on the same page in our actions toward others.
Interestingly, at the meeting I attended last evening the speaker made a bit of a slip when he said, "Businessmen" can get on board with the project. He quickly stopped and reversed this, "I mean, 'business people.' There were many women leaders in the audience. I think he went beyond being politically correct since he is a very warm and caring person... He's creating a school to help overcome poverty in the inner city. Perhaps this example helps explain why I took courage to explain why inclusive language might be more welcoming in our blogs to a wider audience.
At times purposes are different in the kinds of posts we write so I can see "man" might fit better. I value you and I hope you differ because that is how I learn and grow, too. I truly welcome the differences.
Robyn,
My apologies if I came off as critical of your post! That was certainly not my intention. I really respect your desire to think of new ways to be more welcoming to your readers, because your warm and welcoming demeanor is one of the things that draws me to your blog. Your desire to make sure that Jean didn't feel excluded says a lot about your personality -- all of it good!
Please forgive me for disagreeing with a few of your points so adamantly -- and perhaps a bit too self-righteously! (I guess I am a bit more dogmatic about the subject than I realized.) :-/
I had so many thoughts about this topic that I broke the cardinal rule of disagreeing agreeably: first say something positive. I really do admire your desire to be more inclusive of everyone and should have said so before going into my own opinions on the topic. I also agree with your Points 3, 4, and 5, in addition to my frequent use of Point 1.
Despite everything I've said, I very often use inclusive language myself. I simply try not to take the practice to unreasonable -- or literarily detrimental -- lengths.
Please know that I didn't mean to imply that you are one of the people who pays "pen service" to gender-correctness -- because I know that your motivation for using inclusive language is to genuinely welcome all.
Hi Jeannie, I really hesitated before writing this blog. It was truly Jean's action to draw the wonderful picture of the female brain that made me sense the quote may have subtly excluded her. Since then, I came to learn more about Jean and her personality. I value her and all the thoughts and ideas she brought.
Your view is important and respected by me because I highly value your ideas.
I thought perhaps Jean felt excluded when Jean told me about drawing her picture of female brain. I went to Flickr to see what she drew and it's overflowing with personality. I liked it and at that point I was not really sure what she was saying. And, I thought the quote may have offended her. At that point, I decided to think through how I could be more welcoming to men and women alike. And, it was the language that made the difference in thinking a female brain might be needed.
I had an "aha" and decided to write this blog on using more inclusive language to be welcoming to all. Simple as that.
After writing this I took note that Joanna had written a recent post on addressing hot topics when writing a blog. She advised to avoid it. There's so much wisdom in her words. I questioned my sanity in bringing up a "hot topic." I can see the point from both views to be honest and truthful.
And I truly welcome your very thoughtful points on language since you are a writer.
Thanks so much.
Robyn,
I agree with Joanna and Brad. As writers, it's important for us not to water down the impact of our message. There are, after all, situations where the word "man" provides much more drama than the word "person" and, in fact, our language can sound clumsy when we overdo such changes.
Using the pronoun "he" inclusively has never bothered me (though I do try to use both masculine and feminine pronouns whenever practical and, like you, will often resort to using the plural form when it doesn't sound too forced). I have always personally disliked arbitrarily bouncing back and forth between masculine and feminine pronouns with no real contextual reason for doing so (though I do it on occasion) because I always find it sounds a little scatter-brained, and I feel it sacrifices literary quality.
I try to remember that, whenever we use terms such as "human" and "humanity" in place of "man" or "men" -- and even when we use the word "woman" -- we are using words the root of which is the word "man." So, in some ways at least, it's difficult to get away from it. Though using the above terms may make us feel as if we've avoided using male-based terminology, technically speaking, we haven't. This is why I try not to be too dogmatic about it.
Like Robert, I enjoy using the term "folks," occasionally. Though, unlike him, I have no problem thinking of at least some firefighters as women, because I happen to have a daughter-in-law who is a firefighter. 
I think we have to be very careful when we alter a quotation in a well-meaning effort to make it more gender-neutral/gender-balanced, since when we do so, we are taking liberties with someone else's words. The only legitimate reason I can think of for changing a direct quote is when we are incorporating it into a larger sentence and therefore must change certain terms (always placing these in parentheses) to preserve the proper syntax of the sentence.
To a great extent, the gender inclusiveness-exclusiveness issue depends on how one looks at it. I don't necessarily see the use of masculine nouns or pronouns when referring to both men and women as exclusive language. In fact, in one sense at least, such language is inclusive, since it welcomes both male and female under the male umbrella, which -- rather than excluding women -- might actually be seen as placing them on an equal footing with men.
To my mind, intent is far more important in a written work than choice of "genderisms." If a writer's context respects both males and females equally, that's far more important than whether or not he pays "pen service" to gender-correctness.
Thought-provoking post!
Jeanne
Hi Jean, you point to an important aspect of being the only gal in a physics class full of guys. The reason you're there is to find solutions to physics problems and in my mind that's what you should stand out for. Congrats on doing so well in Physics, a subject many folks don't dare tackle.
Humor does us well in any situation because it brings well-being. And, laughter sparks more creativity [problem solving] to the person who enjoys it at work or school. Keeping on the lighter side really keeps us balanced.
Thanks for sharing your experience and insights about these, Jean..
Jackie, you pushed yourself in more ways than one to take a day's training as a firefighter. Good for you. I like the way you focused on learning the skill and getting along with others during the process by enjoying some humor together. Nothing's better than humor to bring well-being individually and to the group of participants. Humor squirts serotonin, a chemical of well-being to the brain, which easily spreads throughout the group.
Thanks so much for sharing and it really tells so much more about your personality.
And, Jackie, thanks for taking the extra time to spell this out. It really helps us see this at the depth.
About being called a guy. I majored in physics and the ratio in upper level courses was more like 50 guys to every gal. I didn't mind being regarded as one of the guys. I still laugh at the time I found an elegant solution to a homework problem. When the grader posted the answers he wrote, "Thanks to Mr. Jean Sjoberg for the solution to this problem." No, my feelings weren't hurt that he assumed I was male. It was fun.
Ah Robyn - Irealise that I have ( unintentionally) misrepresented my experience in firefighting. For one day only and as a special treat I trained with firefighters here in Edinburgh.
And here's a thing( sorry - I don't mean to hijack this topic) but I did everything as a woman and someone in my late 40s at the time that the other - male - participants of all ages did! Sure I was not as strong as them but I did share the lifting and carrying of a dead body ( dummy of course).I learned from our excellent training leader that day that skill was the key....!
Laughter - especially at ourselves - is a wonderful antedote to many of lives stresses.
Quite frankly, Jackie, I too was socialized over the years to just put in the male pronouns and lump all human beings under the term, man. Since I noted the changes in grammar rules to be more "inclusive," I thought it would be a good thing to share. Younger readers are more aware of this than we, who are part of the generation socialized earlier. My purpose in all of this was basically to show that all folks need respect as we choose our words. If our thoughts and words are kind and respectful the same behavior follows. I agree that many merely follow "political correctness," and their hearts and actions do not follow their words.
How intriguing to learn you were a firefighter. What kind of work did you do in this capacity? you certainly are a woman of many talents.
The kind of humor that works best is when the joke is on us. In this way we can laugh hard and others readily join in. Everyone loves that and it does bring us together.
Anna, thanks for bringing your personal perspective to the conversation since you are a woman in engineering, a field that is dominated by men. Your good nature helped you to "get along" well.
Nonetheless, Anna, you were "not up to battle." My guess is that it wouldn't make sense to jeopardize your standing in the program.
Like Robert I find that I usually think about doctors/firefighters/military as men. That is maybe a generational thing - don't know.I really didn't notice it until he posted his comment - and personally I don't think it matters. It does not mean that I don't believe women can be those things ( and I have taken firefighter training myself!) Gestalt's comment about self censoring - or falling into political correctness - made me think. I am very careful about the words I use to refer to people and groups of people and I have been since I was very young - before PCness really. I agree that it is how the words are perceived - not so much as how they are used - that drives this. But as a human being I feel it is my responsibility to just check with myself that what I say ( and do) will not have a negative impact on someone else. I think it is important though not to imagine discrimination or insults where there are none - it is a fine line.
And I believe humour shared across gender and culture can be very powerful!
Robyn, most of the profs were older man, I think they did not even think about it, and we just went with it, never really bother us, on the end we could not fight back, 10 girls out of 120 humans, lol, it would be a hard battle. Sometimes you just have to live with it, and not let it bother you. However, women professors would always distinguish between. Thanks for asking, hope my anser is clear. Anna
Ellen, I originally posted this article because I wanted to make sure my words were welcoming to all.
Ellen your question is very thoughtful. I can see why it changed your thoughts about writing with inclusive language.
Your statements, "It makes men richer when women find a genuine welcome in language." and "Similarly, it makes women richer when men find a genuine welcome in language," show how much you value the contributions of men and women. I feel much the same.
What I do enjoy most is that we are different and we have so much to offer one another.
What a great discussion. While it is certainly not ever a case of "offending" some, it is more for me, a case of welcoming all.
It's quite easily done after one takes it on as a matter of principle in much the way Robert and others suggest.
Most reputable publishers nowadays will not allow "he" to refer to all humans. Instead, they ask for "he" and "she" to be used intermittently.
I used to not mind all he's, and then I looked very deeply into the problem of exclusion. here was the question I posed to history. IS THERE ANY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FACT THAN MANY WOMEN GET EXCLUDED FROM EARLY TEXTS, AND THE FACT THAT LANGUAGE IS ALSO EXCLUSIVE?
It makes men richer when women find a genuine welcome in language. Similarly, it makes women richer when men find a genuine welcome in language. That's because language spills into life, and men and women's brains differ and each have have far more offerings than we tend to value, unless the language shouts its own welcome to both genders
Robert, generally I don't begin to broach a topic like this because it gets close to people's deep-seated beliefs. Since I was in a vulnerable place because of choosing the quote I did, it gave me opportunity to explore inclusive language in a way I could not otherwise. And, it has stirred a lot of thinking on the part of visitors.
I agree with you, Brad and Joanna about #1. Whether singular or plural, it can get dicey as you write and it weakens the impact of what you're expressing.
Folks is something that seems a little "homespun" and I enjoy using it, too.
Thanks for joining the conversation here, Robert.
Robyn, and interesting and thought-provoking subject! I've tried to do #1, but sometimes it's difficult to maintain the same impact, as Brad pointed out.
As for #2, I like the word "folks", too. All the rest have more-or-less become second nature now (thank goodness), so I think in general my writing is as inclusive as it can be.
But I have to admit, when I think of doctors, fire fighters, etc. - I'm afraid it's usually a man I picture in there. Guess the old ways of thinking are deeper seated than I thought. :-(
Anna, Thanks for sharing some of your experiences from engineering school. Was your Prof full of humor as he called the group of women, "guys?" What was his tone?
Gestalt, I am really honored you took time to leave this comment. Your perspective is thoughtfully presented and I so agree with what you say - especially about the real world treatment of others beyond the words.
I hesitated before I posted this blog and I took the risk to go ahead and do so. I was the one in a vulnerable place because a visitor pointed out that she did not feel included in the statement "The brain is the man..." She drew that lovely picture of the feminine side of the brain. This kept niggling at me. Treatment of others begins in our minds and the words that flow from our mouths - especially as we blog. And like you say it is reflected in our actions toward others different than ourselves.
I thought it would be a great opportunity to introduce the concept of inclusive language as a way to make others feel welcome in this blogging environment of "words on paper."
I think the idea of laughing together is the best way to go. If you know me, every once in awhile I do share a belly laugh because it's one of the best ways to get serotonin flowing in our brains. It makes us feel good and we are then more open to accept others. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Robyn, and lol on the cartoon. Interesting point, but you know being in engineering school, this never crossed my mine - the classic is 'hey guys how is going' lol I would hear, even if it was a group of women. Aside, this is very interesting post Robyn, and lot of interesting points I would never thought of. Thanks for sharing. Anna
Nice blog, Robyn. Being subscribed for a couple of months, this is the first time I leave a comment
Be careful not to fall into the realms of political correctness.
Words do not discriminate by themselves, but the meaning that they are given and thought to be common by everyone - when it is not.
I agree on many of the tips - but this way of expression subtly remarks that there is a difference that must be made - only that we do our best to not to do it. Well, it isn't necessarily meant to be this way.
I know that in the US, UK, and most anglosaxon countries this is the widespread feeling. But I am very concerned on how people on these countries are turned into censors themselves without noticing it.
Promoting more sense of humour and truly relaxed atmosphere contribute much more to feeling between equals.
There is a way to laugh all together about the specificities (everyone has!), but not laugh AT the people making them feel really bad. Acceptance rather than concealing.
Alina, thanks for adding perspective in light of another language. I do see a definite shift to include women more in our language rather than having "man" represent all. The image that "man" conjures up is a man, and not a woman. I know that's why many women have questioned it and why we are now seeing this shift in expression.
I appreciate what you add to this conversation.
Hi Robyn,
I only now realize how great it is to have a mother tongue where there's a different word "man" does not also mean "human being" . However, the word meaning human being used to also mean "man" in the past. I'm glad that's changed.
Alina
Hi Jackie, I probably would not have touched it without Jean's mention. Quite frankly in this case, I agree with you and Joanna that "person" is too indistinct. I'm going back to change again to include both sexes in each instance. Then the whole picture is more complete.
Thanks for joining in this conversation and bringing another idea.
Robyn - I must admit that I re-read the quote to get a full understanding. I would not change it (though I do use the square brackets method occasionally) but I do spend a bit of time thinking about the words I use with the aim to make them inclusive ( or at least not to exclude anyone). Your post made me think a lot more about that. Thank you.
Jeanne, thanks so much for sharing more of your thoughts on the quote I chose.
You're lots of fun and your first comment and this help me revisit this issue again in a less serious way!
I needed that...
I wasn't offended by the term man. In fact, the line tickled my funny bone because it conjured up the picture, which always makes me laugh. When I wrote The Joy of Being a Blockhead I had no problem applying Samuel Johnson's quote to myself: "No man but a blockhead would ever write, except for money." I'm happy to be a blockhead.
Anyway, thanks for trying to be considerate.
Hi Brad, I'm really glad you were brave to bring a man's view to share and especially since you focus on words. Language evolves and changes to reflect a culture. If you think of a physician, dentist, or fire fighter, do you automatically think of a man? The plural forms are simply cleaner to use and do not require the use of "he and she," or "him or her."
Newer grammar texts point to the use of inclusive language so that students are learning it in school.
Many women feel sensitive to exclusive language and it could possibly turn a potential customer away. So that's a real consideration.
I was socialized in an earlier era so the male terms were deeply embedded in my basal ganglia, the part of the brain where routines and procedures are stored. Over time, I have tried to change that to reflect the times in which we live as well as to keep up with the newer grammar texts.
Professional communication today requires us to use more inclusive language. So I've tried to get in step. Thoughts?
Joanna, I have to agree that the words, "humanity, person, and people" do not breathe as much life into writing since they bring to mind a rather fuzzy image.
If a writer moves from the more general term at first to a specific instance, then what fits that case adds needed zip to a piece. How might you approach it?
Thank you, Ellen. After Jean's comment my brain went to work and this post emerged. I started to think if I slipped in this area, many other professionals might, too. I wanted to help folks be aware of ways our language is currently evolving to be more inclusive. These changes are now reflected in newer grammar texts so the younger generation might be more aware of this than we are.
I appreciate other cultures and truly enjoy working with people around the world so inclusive language is important to me in that respect, too.
Thanks for your kind words.
Hi Robyn, I agree with your sentiments and most of your recommendations. I do have trouble with the stilted use of language to avoid "he". I don't consider myself sexist, but neither do I consider "he" and "him" to be perjorative terms.
Robyn thanks for a thought provoking post and some great practical advice.
To be honest I hadn't even noticed the quote first time round and it probably wouldn't have jarred - but maybe that's because I already 'know' you. Maybe my perception would have been different if I'd been visiting for the first time (which is of course the point of your post).
My only caveat would be that some of the more abstract language has less vitality and impact than the specific of 'man' or 'woman' - person just doesn't do it in quite the same way - so we need to take care we don't overdo things and lose the sense of humanity and connection that we're trying to create.
Robyn, what an amazing reminder of how words that either whacks or wins in any situation.
Again and again, as I've worked all over the world with you, I've been inspired by the way you WELCOME and include people across cultures, genders, talents, careers, ages and backgrounds. You teach us all!
Perhaps because I see daily, your own love for humanity, I am often humbled by your own approaches to inclusion.
It's also why am deeply moved by the depth of this post. Thanks for the courage it takes to welcome and learn from all who differ, Robyn! You make inclusion a delightful adventure to leap to and learn from daily!
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