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I think that the answer is the same as for Frum Jews: If your house is full of love and enjoyment, that is the lifestyle that they will want as well.
WE will have a hard time arguing against intermarriage though, if that issue comes up. On what basis can we upset about such a choice? Sure it makes it very incovenient for us, but we would have little moral argument to offer up.
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DO,
\"On what basis can we upset about such a choice? Sure it makes it very incovenient for us, but we would have little moral argument to offer up.\"
The same type of arguments given by regular Orthodoxy still stand. If you want to perpetuate a way of life that will be passed down from one generation to the next then it would be counterproductive to start a family with mixed traditions which will most likely dilute and dissolve Jewish identity and character.
Intermarriage is wrong because the Jewish parent is rolling the dice on maintaining the Jewish identity and acculturation of their children.
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Orthoprax,
That argument doesn't stand if the children don't want to maintain a Jewish identity. And we can't use the \"God said so\" argument.
(What do you mean by rolling the dice on maintaining Jewish identity?)
\"That argument doesn't stand if the children don't want to maintain a Jewish identity. And we can't use the \"God said so\" argument.\"
The same would be true for the Orthodox argument if the children don't want to maintain an Orthodox identity. Nor could they use the \"God said so\" answer for someone unwilling to remain Orthodox.
We live in a free country and there's nothing compelling a person to live a life he doesn't want to live. Rather than that, we need to introduce to people reasons why they would compell themselves to live a Jewish life.
\"(What do you mean by rolling the dice on maintaining Jewish identity?)\"
People don't magically wake up and realize they are Jewish - and have a meaningful understanding of such. It is inculcated from birth by parents interested in passing on Jewish values and ways of thinking and by interaction within a Jewish community at large, doing Jewish things on a daily basis.
Once you mix in a huge non-Jewish variable like a parent, the fate of a child's identity is much less certain.
Right, but if I were Orthodox I would still be able to tell my kids why I believe they should marry Jews and be Orthodox, namely that God said so. If they were then unwilling, so be it.
But as an Orthoprax Jew it's much harder to convince. Intellectual Orthopraxy (the subject of a future post) is about honesty, feeling Jewish, and proximity to Orthodox practice. That can't be mandated or proven.
\"But as an Orthoprax Jew it's much harder to convince. Intellectual Orthopraxy (the subject of a future post) is about honesty, feeling Jewish, and proximity to Orthodox practice. That can't be mandated or proven.\"
Maybe harder to convince but yet all the more real. As I see it, if a Jew doesn't want to pass on Judaism (in whatever sense) to the next generation then they aren't a very good Jew. And their children _will_ be lost from the Jewish people.
As in Orthodoxy, those who care will stay the course and produce like-minded children to some degree. Those who don't care will likewise produce like-minded children who will be lost into the general non-Jewish population.
The distinction is as follows:
Orthodox children can reject Orthodoxy all they want, but as far as the parents are concerned, the kids are still obligated to observe - whether or not the kids want to accept.
Orthoprax parents can't argue obligation.
\"Orthoprax parents can't argue obligation.\"
Yes and no. Granted, not obligation to God, but yes obligation to the broader sense of cultural affiliation.
Either way the person is free to choose and suffer the consequences if they choose wrongly.
Hypothetically as a parent, I would still believe that a good Jew is not one who is careless about the fate of their children and the maintenance of their heritage even if my children would believe otherwise.
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You know...Mordecai Kaplan would be helpful in this conversation.
I strongly recommned \"Communings of the Spirit, volume 1\" - this is an edited volume of Kaplan's personal diaries (the most extensive in human history!). In it, we read about the transition Kaplan goes through from being Orthodox (his father worked for R' Jacob Joseph) to Orthoprax to total honesty.
Enjoy!
>Granted, not obligation to God, but yes obligation to the broader sense of cultural affiliation.
what kind of obligation is this? A person in modern times free to choose which group they want to be affiliated with. That's one of the great things about living in liberal times
Spinoza,
\"what kind of obligation is this? A person in modern times free to choose which group they want to be affiliated with. That's one of the great things about living in liberal times\"
It is the obligation of a committed Jew.
One is free to reject it but there are consequences.
>It is the obligation of a committed Jew.
I guess I'm asking what kind of obligation is there to be a committed Jew? Obviously if a person values that way of life then they will be committed. But is this some kind of obligation or a mere choice of lifestyle? You seem to think it's more than a choice of lifstyle
>One is free to reject it but there are consequences.
sounds scary. what exactly are you referring to?
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What to tell the kids?! That's the most difficult and pressing question for any frum skeptic. I no longer believe in God or OJ, but have three kids (5, 3, 4 months) and am married to a woman who is still committed to living a LWMO life.
My oldest has inherited my skepticism -- he's already debunked the tooth fairy after vigorously pressing me on the issue. Now that we're learning parashat ha'shavua, he's asking questions like \"Is God real?\" or \"Is this stuff [bible stories] really true?\" I try and give him diplomatic answers, but soon, I don't think I'll be able to lie to him.
Also, he's not old enough to remember a time when I put on tefilin every morning, but soon enough he'll realize that I don't practice OJ as I \"should.\"
If it were up to me, and my wife was willing, I'd walk away from it all. Since she's not, I go along with everything for the sake of shalom bayit. At least we have him in a pluralistic community day school, where he'll be exposed to various Jewish traditions and not a monolithic orthodox-or-bust philosophy.
Spinoza,
\"I guess I'm asking what kind of obligation is there to be a committed Jew? Obviously if a person values that way of life then they will be committed. But is this some kind of obligation or a mere choice of lifestyle? You seem to think it's more than a choice of lifstyle\"
It is a heritage-based obligation. It is more than just a way of life, but a history and a compendium of thought and deed as well.
Being a good Jew is like being a good citizen of the Jewish nation. There are certain civic duties that any sincere Jew ought to pursue. It is a kind of ethical obligation. As far as the Jewish people are concerned, there is a standard of conduct that is expected from all its members. Essentially, if one is to remain a member in good standing then adherence to those standards are required.
One, of course, is free to reject those standards and do as one wishes but then one can hardly expect to retain their status of a sincere Jew.
\"sounds scary. what exactly are you referring to?\"
As I said above and earlier. Loss of status and the possibility of their children being lost from Judaism.
Orthoprax,
Agreed, but I still would say that you can't expect or obligate your children to adhere to those standards if you are not a believer. (I was going to write \"if you are not Orthoprax, but that would have been way too confusing.)
Orthoprax, don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to think that a person is obligated to teach his children to practice the traditions of our fathers without also being required to teach the beliefs of our fathers which inspired these practices?
Shouldn't you be obligated (using your reasoning) to teach them that God commanded Israel to practice mitzvos, since this was one of the core beliefs of tradition
Skeptodox,
\"Agreed, but I still would say that you can't expect or obligate your children to adhere to those standards if you are not a believer.\"
Why not? They are still Jews, aren't they?
Spinoza,
\"Shouldn't you be obligated (using your reasoning) to teach them that God commanded Israel to practice mitzvos, since this was one of the core beliefs of tradition\"
Sure, to teach them _of_ it but not necessarily that it is 100% correct.
If I were Greek, I'd similarly think it important for my children to be familiar with the classical pantheon. Perhaps I would stress Plato and Aristotle more, but the classical pantheon would still have a place.
Orthoprax,
I think your missing my point. If you merely teach them it as the greek classics then you are breaking away from the Jewish tradition which taught that the Torah is the divine word of God. And as a good citizen of the Jewish nation perhaps you're obligated to continue with the tradition. After all thse beliefs were the corner stone of the tradition.
What if one teaches their children _of_ the practices without actually practicing them? I think this would be analagous to your idea of teaching them _of_ the beliefs without teaching them to actually believe in them. Why should a person practice if they don't believe in their divine nature? Do the Greeks still practice their ancient cult practices? For good reason they have stopped
Spinoza,
If you don't believe something then it would make you a hypocrite to teach it to your children as truth. Tradition shapes, but it ought not dominate your life. Judaism, as I see it, is not just a simple metaphysical theory but a progression of religious ideas of the Jewish people. To teach that progress is key, not one particular (though popularly stressed) theology.
Traditional practices are potentially theologically neutral - many different ideas have gone into making an understanding of the things we do from many different perspectives. But to teach of them without doing them is weak. It is the rituals which practically define Jewish life and are what will maintain it in the future.
Your mistake is to place the valuation of Halacha strictly and solely in respect with its divinity. The value of it as a cultural and religious construct still stands.
Orthoprax,
>If you don't believe something then it would make you a hypocrite to teach it to your children as truth
what about all the rituals and blessings that seem to support the very same truths which you seem to question? Isn't it hypocritical do continue them? For example, prayers for rain.
>It is the rituals which practically define Jewish life and are what will maintain it in the future.
No, it is ritual and belief that has defined Jewish life in the past. The two, historically, have been attached like a horse and carriage. This I tell you brother, you can't have one without the other.
Traditional practice without belief can be a bore and a burden. I don't think it's sustainable. Only a few will go for it. I'm not saying a person shouldn't do it if he/she values it, but I wouldn't expect this kind of way to last very long as far as a community goes
But my main contention with your comments is this belief of yours that there is some kind of heritage-based obligation to practice even when one finds no value in it. I think this is as false as believing in a divine obligation. Both appear to me as made up constructs to support a way of life which you approve of. if you approve of a way of life then you should live it, not because of a false sense of obligation, but because you think it is good.
Spinoza,
\"what about all the rituals and blessings that seem to support the very same truths which you seem to question? Isn't it hypocritical do continue them? For example, prayers for rain.\"
Maybe, maybe not. It is possible to understand them in different ways.
\"No, it is ritual and belief that has defined Jewish life in the past. The two, historically, have been attached like a horse and carriage. This I tell you brother, you can't have one without the other.\"
Belief has been important, sure, but the likes of the Besht and the likes of the Rambam seem to coexist even when their beliefs are pretty distant. There's a reason Judaism mandates that the community follow the majority when it comes to Halacha, but does not mandate hashkafa in the same way.
\"Traditional practice without belief can be a bore and a burden. I don't think it's sustainable. Only a few will go for it.\"
You may be right, but the belief in hand would be the importance of following tradition. Doing it by rote is almost worthless.
\"But my main contention with your comments is this belief of yours that there is some kind of heritage-based obligation to practice even when one finds no value in it. I think this is as false as believing in a divine obligation.\"
No, if one finds no value in it then they are free to leave. But the if-then nature of the construct delivers real consequences to those who do not obligate themselves.
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