Shortly after R' Moshe and R' Yaakov passed away, there was a symposium of Modern Orthodox Rabbis with R' Elya, R' Pam and lbc'l the Noviminsker in an effort to bridge the gap between the two communities.
In the early stages of the meeting, before the obvious questions were raised - why do Haredism lack respect for RIETS graduates and Modern Orthodoxy/Torah Umadah in general and how do the Haredi rabbis have the right to tell talmidim of the Rav to ignore their Rebbe's decision regarding interfaith dialogue- the question was raised whether they can give a Reform rabbi who was personaly Shomer Mitzvos, an aliyah. The answer was yes.
Then they asked: what about calling him 'Rav'?
The response: just do it quietly...
Huh? What's the point of doing it quietly? The whole question is propriety, which is lost if no one hears it. A tree falls in a forest, etc.
Seems to me all this mumbo-jumbo about "sheasani ger" and "sheasani yehudi" is just a fig-leaf to get to what they're really worried about, which is "shelo asani isha". I dont get why they need this fraudulent halachic analysis. Why dont they just capitulate to the feminists like the reform? Orthodox requires its adherents to man up. It's pathetic that the left wing rabbis you mention are too timid to stand up to the few but loud feminists. Feminism anyway is out of fashion.
Interesting that you hung out with David Bernstein. He's pretty good.
Also interesting is your description of a debate between your father and Whitlfield. I know neither, but you describe the latter as a Truman democrat, and it *sounds* like your father is a rockefeller republican, which means that both of them are either dinosaurs or irrelvant in today's political arena.
Couldnt read the whole Fox letter. Why did they burn their father's letters?
All in all, interesting stuff. I sometimes love him (when he's bashing the frum) and I sometimes hate him (when he's bashing the frum), but Marc Shapiro is a treasure.
If you click on the pictures and the letters you can read them no problem. For some reason everything now seems to be getting cut off.
and thanks (I think)
"and it is only a matter of time before the Conservative movement accepts intermarriage. They have no choice, as their congregations are full of people whose children intermarry"
Sort of like the LWMO communities accepting congregants and scholars who don't believe in ikrei emunah, because they have on choice.
what a silly, but nevertheless in true form, statement by Dr. Lamm.
Asher (we go way back) Lopatin's argument of she'asani yisrael is publicly available on his blog. The entire letter isn't, but it's not like his shita was secret.
http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/2...-asher-lopatin/
Marc, While it is truly inspiring to finally see you approach an issue as what would Reb Aaron Kotler have said, we can just offer some encouragement that if you continue trying you might get closer on target! We just have to beg of you - stick to your pseudo-facts and leave the judgements to their respective experts. When I want to know Reb Aaron’s point of view, I don’t go looking in Brandeis University! One must assume that his students would be more qualified in his מהלך. As the organization Aish Hatorah is the banner for organized Kiruv out there, your comments certainly imply a total disregard for the Lords work. Or do you have an alternative model? At the 'לוי of Aish’s spiritual leader, one of the maspidim said it best. “out there there are people criticizing this action they did, and that, but I say [shout] ‘they did something! they cared! this kept them up at night. הקב"ה’s lost children meant something! What are you doing?’”
Dr. Shapiro:
Thanks for your clarifications regarding the history of the Brandeis eruv.
Regarding the use of the term "upgrade" - they were, in fact, upgrades. One of the issues was that the eruv included the property of a non-Jew who had "held out" and not sold his property to the university. There had not been a "sekhirat reshut" of that property (and as one of the parties involved told me: "if he was consistently turning down offers to sell his property to the university for big bucks, it stands to reason that he wouldn't have been so amenable to leasing it to us for a dollar").
This was in the original article, but was edited out by those who felt it would be too tedious.
I don't know enough of the back story to know whether this was a real case of "motzi la'az al ha-rishonim", a chumra, or a temporary oversight.
Derekh agav, the eruv that I built at the University of Maryland recently went through some changes in which the "gode asik" lechis that I installed are being replaced by lechis that run all the way up to the electrical wires. Although this does not in any way improve the halakhic standing of the eruv, I would not hesitate to call it an "upgrade".
Marc, you have previously mentioned an instance where you left out a few words in the kitvei harav weinberg due to your sensitivity of the "beit midrash" nature of the work. I can't seem to locate that post now that I have managed to obtain a copy for myself. Also, would you be able to enlighten us on any such similar ommisions?
MBA, see
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2009...sky-part-
2.html
Also, the quote dealing with the Brisker derekh mentioned in the last post had an ellipsis in it in the first printing, but the newer printings don't have it.
That was me
on the insightful remark:
"The internet is so amazing as it allows all of us to correct errors that have appeared in our works, and publicize them, something that was not possible in earlier years. R. Judah Ibn Tibbon wrote to his son, R. Samuel (Iggeret ha-Musar, ed. Korah [Kiryat Sefer, 2007], p. 45):
והטעות שתצא מיד האדם הוא הנתפש עליה ונזכר בה כל ימיו.
In other words, unlike a verbal error which is forgotten, something in print is there forever"
Reminds one of Rambam;s warning (Igerret Teman):
ומה שראוי שתדעו שהאדם אין לדבר או לדרוש עד שיחזור פעם ושתים ושלש וארבע... ועל מה שירשום האדם בידו ויכתבהו ראוי שיחזרהו אלף פעמים אילו יתכן זה.
All the more so inthe media of manuscript, where the author is many steps removed from the copyist, the text becomes more authoritative than the author, אשר נכתב בשם המלך אין להשיב, rendering any mistake irreversible כשגגה היוצאה מפי השליט.
Rambam's hundreds of corrections are mostly in his own copy, without much hope that they will circulate. Only in a handful of instances does he suggest in a personal response that the books should be corrected.
Whith this in mind one can only be awestruck at the ability of Rif to update the copies of his book that are circulating throughout the world, as if this was a dynamic text on Google Docs. When I get around to it, I hope Bln"d to look into the techincal details f how this was done. In the mean time it's clear, that his updates are almost universally copied in all the numerous manuscripts, and we only know of the Lishna Qamma through secondary witnesses like Eshkol, Itim Maor, and Ramban, or through marginalia in some of the earlyest manuscripts.
The issue of intermarried politicians came up in Lakewood a few years ago. There's a local politician named Bob Singer who has been allied with the yeshiva for decades, but who is currently intermarried. A certain gadfly & rabble-rouser from the BMG community (YS) ran for township committee against BS, and in an effort to boost his support, he ran to RC Kanievsky and posed the question "should people vote for a Jew who is intermarried?", receiving a negative reply. He then put out all sorts of campaign literature claiming that RCK had endorsed his candidacy. In the end the RY & askonim straightened it out with RCK, and the upshot was that the BMG community supported BS.
[On a related note, one aspect of RCK that's both great and terrible is that he answers everyone. Many high school kids write to him with questions and he responds to them all. People pester him all day with all sorts of questions, many of them silly, and he responds to them all. As a result, he has a tendency to say a lot of things "off the cuff", which sometimes are off target. )I would guess that the "teeth" statement was along those lines.)]
Daniel Chwolson was also the subject of the famous line from the Netziv about the kosher pig.
I once saw a story - IIRC in the MOAG - about a guy who converted to Christianity and then became a censor. He then refused to approve the work of some Jewish poet because it contained what was - from a Jewish perspective - heresy. (On a similar note, I heard that when the Yated started out they were considering having it printed by Al Hamishmar, the paper of Mapam. It didn't work out & the person from AH in charge of the negotiations later said he hadn't agreed since he comes from a gerer background & heard R Shach is against ger.)
I would interpret Ibn Tibn differently. A lot of times you "know you are right" but really aren't. If everyone disagrees with you, it's wise to consider the possibility that you're wrong, and back off, even if you "know you are right".
>I once saw a story - IIRC in the MOAG - about a guy who converted to Christianity and then became a censor. He then refused to approve the work of some Jewish poet because it contained what was - from a Jewish perspective - heresy.
I think such stories are greatly exaggerated, or at least misunderstood, because not rarely what was heresy from a Jewish perspective was also heresy from a conservative Christian perspective too, and thus the censor was only doing his duty. Particularly in Russia, where any whiff of liberalism was squashed, or really any Catholic country with censorship (although its certainly possible that such a censor would find it clever to lecture the poet).
Fascinating and brilliant multifaceted piece,on so many different levels. wow !
Thank you for writing and posting this.
I love that quote from Professor Ginzberg " I like my whiskey straight" lol , he is my favorite oldschool talmudic scholar.
I once worked with a man named Iger, a direct descendant of R' Akiva Eiger. He wasn't Jewish.
By the way, it's not just that there are Jews who see no problem in intermarrying. I once attended what was technically an intermarriage- I was the only local acquaintance of the couple. The bride, who I'm a friend of, doesn't even really know that she's Jewish. (She once mentioned to me that her mother's mother was.) This is much more common than you'd think- there are apparently tens of millions of Americans with some Jewish connection, and many are halakhically Jewish.
That video of R' Kahane is really something, isn't it? I'm not too sure that defenders of R' Gopin would want to publicize it, as R' Kahane, k'darko bakodesh, really rips him apart. I hadn't realized it was him. Ah well, I thought he was such a nice guy.
That Chowolson story sounds a lot like Heine, by the way.
Re: The Bracha question. He can also point out that there's an old Italian women's siddur (at JTS) that reads "SheAsani Isha V'Lo Ish." So there's always the option of saying "SheLo Asani Ish," although that's still negative. Of course, with Conservative siddurim having done this first, there's zero chance an Orthodox one would. Not even the Kabbalah Centre's siddur touches this. (He doesn't mention that Rinat Yisrael adds "Goya" and "Shifcha" along with two "Modah"s. A local rav and neighbor of ours in Queens once saw my mother carrying one and brought up exactly that.)
Of course, there's always the Israeli option of starting public tefillah with "Rebbi Yishmael" and letting people do what they want.
Personally, I think the "women are greater spiritually" line is bunk, but also think (based on the context of the other brachot) that there's a lot to be said for the "categories of people not commanded in mitzvot" argument rather than simple misogyny. And in any event, aren't feminists always talking (correctly) about how women have it tougher in this world? Shouldn't they approve of the sentiment behind the bracha? (I mean that semi-seriously. I certainly see how the bracha can make women feel.)
By the way, seeing that Gopin is a J Street supporter (first thing on his blog), I have less compunction telling people to check out the Kahane video at 57:44, where he comes across as a real jerk playing to the audience.
"(The Rov, apparently, would have felt: Never mind the etrog’s beauty. What matters is that the citron is without blemish and the benediction is properly pronounced.)."
No, the Rav would have felt that the beauty has halackif significance (hidur mitzvah), which also enhances the actual kiyum of the mitzvah. (R' Chaim with the two etrogs)
This is quite a window into Marc Shapiro. I'm glad to hear you and David Bernstein know each other. I heard him at a Federalist Society meeting once, and have read some of his law articles. He's a clear thinker and writer.
The Kahana video really makes one pause, for many reasons. You see his repulsive antagonists, including that idiot Gopin, shouting that land for peace was the solution. Yet here we are, almost 20 years later, and you still hear leftists claiming land for peace will work. The human mind must have an infinite capacity to believe in fantasy.
It makes me think also how obnoxious it is for 18 year old kids to publicly challenge a man nearly three times their age. No embarassment, no recognition that they are dealing with a man who thought about their juvenile attacks 30 years before they were born. Not long ago I was thinking how overly obsequios yeshivah bachurim are to their rebbeim. Maybe they are, but this video is a good corrective to see the other side is just as bad.
Makes me reflective about lots of other things too.
"and you still hear leftists"
DF, like I said, check out Gopin's blog. *He* still believes in all this nonsense, perhaps now more than ever.
"nearly three times their age."
He was more than that at the time.
You have to love how Gopin refers to him as "Meir," and R' Kahane casually replies, "Nu, 'Meir,' OK, 'Meir' it is," and keeps on referring to Gopin, the much younger man, as "Rabbi."
Gopin's buddy at least laughs at R' Kahane's jokes at their expense; Gopin seems to be frozen.
The absolute best is the little question and answer session on the Sanhedrin:
Kahane: Is Judaism democratic?
Gopin: [Silence. Crickets chirp. Titters from the audience.]
Kahane repeats the question.
Gopin: Well, the Sanhedrin made its decisions via a vote of the majority...
Kahane [as if he hadn't heard that clearly]: What was that? A vote?
Gopin [not getting it]: A vote of the majority...
Kahane: A vote?
Gopin: The Sanhedrin made its decisions...
[Now, citing the Sanhedrin here is a giant non-sequitor if not a perfect concession, and a bunch of possible responses bubbled through my head. But Kahane, bless him, nailed the perfect response on the spot.]
Kahane: And how many non-Jews sat on the Sanhedrin?
Gopin: [You can't hear the crickets only because the audience is laughing too loud. He tries a bit more, but the argument is clearly over. Come to think, Gopin lost the argument the second he called Kahane a Nazi; Godwin's Law had just been invented, but Kahane sums it up pretty well in response.
>No, the Rav would have felt that the beauty has halackif significance (hidur mitzvah), which also enhances the actual kiyum of the mitzvah. (R' Chaim with the two etrogs)
Glatzer knew about hidur mitzvah. The point of that quip is that to the Rav hidur mitzvah is not "beauty" at all. It's a halachic concept.
And yet Dr. Shapiro writes that this Gopin "has made an international reputation for himself in the area of conflict resolution,". How many conflicts has this bufoon actually resolved? And who has been paying him to run around not resolving conflicts?
Oh, wow. Just checked out Lopatin's page. Didn't expect much from him, considering his most famous congregant(s), but...I just gotta wonder what it is about Maimonides graduates and Rhodes Scholars who really get into Islamic studies and develop Stockholm Syndrome.
Reason number one modern Orthodoxy has problems catching on with some (especially in Israel)? Lunacy like this.
In my last post I mentioned R. Meir Amsel and the memorial volume that recently appeared. I should have also mentioned that his son, R. Eli Amsel, runs the site Virtual Judaica.
And Eli's son, Baruch, does the site http://kevarim.com which lists "Kevarim of Tzadikim in North America".
R. Amsel has a very interesting exchange with R. Lamm in the pages of HaMaor after RYBS's levaya. He really goes after a certain RY who was said to have led the boycott of the levaya.
"Personally, I think the "women are greater spiritually" line is bunk"
I used to think so also; however, there is a midrash that says this see yaklut on vechana hi medaberes al liba. ROY discusses it in one of his teshuvos.
The problem is that one midrash cannot be assumed to underlie and explain other, unrelated phenonmena in Judaism. Should an isolated midrash which is derogatory about women be seen as the underlying principle behind the beracha? Are burim and nochrim also more spiritual?
Re. the RY that Amsel went after, he polemicized against this RY for ten years or so, and would never mention him by name. Instead he referred to him as "Ha-melamed mi-Philadelphia".
re: Kiddush by women, I would think of greater concern would be if one can be yotzai kiddush from one who does not believe in Creationism (there was a very interesting video on INN about a women whose husband went OTD. It's a very sad description of their struggles (she comes home from shul & he turns off the computer to join the family at the seudah. She says was told she should make kiddush for the family.)
Hana,
I think you mean creation, not creationism. But why do you assume that someone who is not shomer shabbat does not believe in creation?
Re-reading my fav footnote #18, I don't understand what Glatzer appears to be projecting in terms of personalities,complaints,whiskey quotes and personal philosophies.
Or I dont understand the logical sequence.
If Rabbi Louis Ginzburg's response "I like my whiskey straight", (which Glatzer asserts was a mild complaint of his "talmudic colleague" the Rav's mix of halacha and philosophy,) was actually responsive in nature to the Rav's original Talpiot article,ish halachah, how does that make sense logically, if the essay was as Glatzer described it, all ritual and no emotion ?
R Louis Ginzburg's response, suggests the essay was a mixture of halachah and philosophy.
If that was the case, then Its not clear how the essay could have been all ritual and no emotion.
Philosophy likes its close relative psychology is mostly emotion based.
adlibbing about what the Rav would have felt about the esrog,halachically,ritually and or remarking on R Ginzburgs aesthetics based anecdotes about his father and the beauty of his esrog, are not examples of mixing and matching halacha and philosophy.
And then the "Rov changed his position" and everyone lived happily ever after ?
When did he change his position ?
And Rabbi Louis Ginzberg "would still insist on having his whiskey straight"... ?
As opposed to when he insisted on having his whiskey straight and not mixing halacha and philosophy ?
If the assertion that the original essay of the Ravs was all ritual and no emotion, is true, I dont understand R Ginzburgs response and or why Glatzer (mis)understood it as a mild complaint against the mixing of halacha and philosophy, a position he supposedly had not adopted yet ?
Or maybe Glatzer misunderstood the original essay.
I'm not sure which sentences are not accurate but logically something doesnt make sense at the end of the footnote and day.
Prof. Shapiro:
"I think you mean creation, not creationism."
Don't be too sure. 
"But why do you assume that someone who is not shomer shabbat does not believe in creation?"
Aren't there statements of Chazal to that effect- or, at least, in the positive phrasing, that shmirat Shabbat testifies to the creation of the world? I'm not saying you're wrong (lots of non-religious Jews believe that God created the universe, even while accepting modern science), but the Shabbat/creation tie is pretty explicit in places.
P.S.: When you wrote "no matter which woman did it" I assume that's what you meant: That you could see their argument if they objected to a non-Orthodox woman, but not if they objected to women entirely.
"I'm on G-ds side",
you said
"At the 'לוי of Aish’s spiritual leader, one of the maspidim said it best. “out there there are people criticizing this action they did, and that, but I say [shout] ‘they did something! they cared! this kept them up at night. הקב"ה’s lost children meant something! What are you doing?’”"
Leaving Aish aside, for purposes of this comment,I just wanted to reiterate that this essay and all of the other works by Dr. Shapiro are priceless and worth more than a million tacky ,deceptive, pathetic, misleading, deliberately innacurate,utterly crooked,sincerely sneaky essay attempts to deceive,sooth,protect, mislead hoodwink and persuade for all the wrong reasons.
Deception,trickery,sheker,sneakiness,
whitwashing agendas, alterior motives and dishonesty are not minhagim i'm familiar with.
Nor are they minhagim that belong on "g-ds side".
Does Kiruv Inc. and Hareidi LLC (and other select genres/denominations) have its own special ed edition of the Talmud ?
Lastly, where do you go when you have questions on RAK's views ?
Aish, Chabad, Yeshivish Yeridos Hadoros for wishy washy ness Inc, or all of the above.
Jaded,
You misunderstand Ginzberg because you claim that philosophy is mostly emotion based. That is incorrect. It is the exact opposite of emotion.
Nachum,
Your question is dealt with by the Binyan Tzion. His conclusion is that the kelal of Chazal is not absolute and in our time we see just the opposite, people who make kiddush etc. and yet are not Shomer Shabbat.
Jaded -- and I am glad you enjoy what I have written. Thanks for the compliment.
Prof. Shapiro: I see. I can certainly see why it's not halakhically binding. Of course, it certainly seems to stick in the minds of hoi polloi, which can make all the difference.
(And I say this as someone who just lat week was yotze with the kiddush of a non-Orthodox rabbi. OK, it was kiddusha rabbah, but then we had a two man/one woman zimun at the end. Wonderful people, I must say, and I didn't mind a bit.)
R. Lopatin's writes that She'asani Yisrael is "supported by the Rosh and the G’ra". However, he also writes that "the G’ra affirms it is the girsa of the Rosh". That does not mean that the G'ra endorsed the Rosh's girsa against most Rishonim. Indeed, according to Lopatin, the G'ra also affirmed that the Rambam's girsa is Shelo Asani Goy. Therefore, it appears to me that Lopatin's argument that the G'ra endorsed Sheasani Yisrael is spurious and disingenuous.
I find it hard to believe his claim that "for a shul dedicated to kiruv, these b’rachot are a big turn off." Kiruv targets, if I can call them that, generally don't understand Hebrew and are not sufficiently sophisticated to critique the liturgy. This campaign is ideologically driven, and halakhic process should not be misused to abet it, especially tampering with nusach hateffilah.
By the way, I am married to a Posen. The family still maintains a stambaum which assigns every member a number. Very Germanic. I even think that my eldest son, Yechiel Yaakov (name sounds familiar?), made it into the latest edition.
IIRC, my father-in-law's uncle received s'micha from the Seridei Eish. The late Frank Posen, a cousin, was the President of Golder's Green Beth Hamedrash (Munk's). It's a fairly prolific family. One interesting member was the Shoproner Rav, who was not perhaps your classic Posen.
Thank you for your interesting articles. They are much appreciated.
Kol tuv
Dov Kaiser
Marc (I am addressing you this way per your request) I enjoy these posts very much, thank you.
RJM - thanks. By the way, my son was doing Anim Zemirot at 6 and now, at 7, he is ready for Haftarah. But what can I do, the Ashkenazim won't let him.
So maybe next time I am at your shul I will bring him . . .
Haftarah? That's peanuts. Find a good Temani shul and he could get shishi!
"He agreed with my position but said that he could not put his decision in writing."
Marc, why do you assume that this posek refused to put his p'sak in writing because he was afraid of being attacked? Perhaps it was a p'sek that was relevent to the specific time and circumstance. Once something is put in writing, people tend to generalize (especially if it's a leniency) and take it to levels the posek never intended. I recall hearing Rav Reuvein Feinstein say that Rav Moshe gave many such verbal pesakim for this reason, and Rav Moshe wasn't scared of anyone!
What does this post, and similar posts on this blog, have anything to do with the description of the blog, that its "All about Seforim - New and old, and Jewish Bibliography"?
RD, Which of course means that only strict opinions get written, and future generations only use strict data points. The system converges to strictness.
KT
Dov,
Dr. Shapiro is referring to the fact that my six year old (now seven year old) son reads the Torah in our synagogue, and has also read Haftara, etc. He has received aliyot too. But ours is a Sephardic synagogue, so the attitude toward this kind of thing is somewhat different.
RD
He told me that he couldn't put it in writing because he was not prepared to be the first one to publicize such a pesak, which would break with his haredi colleagues. I.e., he was afraid of their reaction.
Marc,
Things were not always so great at Brandeis.
My brother Nate was there from 1969-1973 and was essentially the only student with a kippah the whole time.. There were a sprinkling of other Orthodox students male and female. with a number of Baale teshuva. In 1973 things started to change.
There were also several orthodox students in the NEJS graduate program several of whom have become well known scholars and academics.
A elderly rabbi Rabbi Mann acted as the kashruth supervisor . Kosher food was available and there were Shabbat services as well as Sabbath meals.
But essentially the atmosphere and the administartion was more interested in attracting non Jewish students (like the daughter of Hugh Hefner Christy) than Orthodox ones.
You are correct about rabbi Albert Axelrod. My brother found him helpful open minded and kind.
The Bostoner rebbe was active on the campus at that time and some students traveled to Brookline for Shabbath. There certainly was no orthodox rabbi on campus but several faculty were ordained rabbis.
Why the picture of Rabbi Twersky, was he always bearded or was the beard grown after his father died.Does his beard make him greater than lets say his brother in law in Israel who is clean shaven ?
Twersky was obviusly a great academic scholar but calling him Talner rebbe takes away from his real and primary identity which was professor and scholar not rebbe.
I do hope that the MO community does not fall into the same trap of our right wing brothers and create mythical figures. Rather celebrate the greatness of the scholars we admire.It would be interesting to see a critical and frank discussion of the relationship between Dr. Twersky and his father in law as well as the whole Twersky family in Brookline (Talner branch).
Lew Lehrman the almost governor of NY if he was almost governor then Dukakis and McGovern were almost president of the USA. Lehrman lost in a landslide and his cadidacy was of a sacrificial nature as the GOP put him up as he funded his own campaign. I believe he owned a chain of drug stores. His greatest moment was visiting the bobover rebbe and some moron put a shtreimel on his head.
R' Alpert: Wikipedia informs us that Lehrman lost 51%-48%. Dukakis lost 53%-46%. (The electoral vote was 79%-29%.) McGovern, of course, was completely blown away.
He was president of Rite Aid, not owner.
Zalman,
In his earlier years he was not bearded. If you look at the cover for the memorial volume published by Harvard, you can see him without a beard. The library probably doesn't have the cover as covers are usually thrown our.
Of course, you are correct re. Rebbe, and yet he functioned as one! He even had hillulas at his shul for previous rebbes! There is a lot to say on this, which I can do at another time. There is a pic. of him without a beard in the book Netzah be-Netzah, or something like that, which is the story of the Talner dynasty, and it also has a picture of him looking very much the rebbe.
Here you have a pic of Twersky with the Grand Rabbi of Zvhill (that's how he refers to himself), someone I know you also have a family connection to.
http://
www.eilatgordinlevitan.co...012608_62_b.gif
re. creating mythical heroes, I assume you are referring to the phenomenon that some (in the haredi world but also the MO world) have been calling RAVodah Zarah
Zalman 51-48% for Coumo is hardly a landslide!
R'MS,
At last shabbat's dvar torah on the other side of town (you know, the one that meets 15 minutes after kiddush starts to ensure that everyone has a chance to first participate in the strategic vision), the point was made that we should not ask what the Rav would have said about X, but rather how he taught that we should think about X.
KT
In my recollection there was never any serious consideration that Lehrman would win, I guess he did better than expected. In that case I stand corrected .
I recall an article in the Boston daily papers about the local Chasidic community and R. Twersky was quoted that if people ask me questions and advice , then I am a rebbe and they do- something like that. I am not contesting his claim to the title or function. I have been told that the youngest son (I am not certain) of Hildesheimer's contemporary RSRH converted and became a Missionary. I have never seen this in print , but heard it from Prof SZL.
In my personal collection of Missionary lterature there are many biographies of supposed rabbinical figures or their children
Frankly many children of rabbis converted , even in contemporary times and at least 2 contemporary gedolim (in the non Charedi camp)in the US had such problems. I understand the wife of Prof. Louis Finkelstein also converted to the other faith. On a non rabbinical note the son of Max Weireich the famous Yiddish scholar and brother of Dr. Uriel - Dr. Gavriel Weinreich is a Episcopalian priest in Michigan ! The famous missionary in England Levertev seems to have had a Schneerson connection, but since I have not firmly established that , I will not elaborate.
Well as usual you give us a tremendous amount of food for thought and kores ruach.
I read the haftarah for parshat Bo at the "White Shul," certainly an Ashkenazi shul, when I was 11.
Zalman,
Once we start talking about non-rabbinical, then the list is endless. Dubnow's daughters come to mind, but there are loads
I will return to the apostates in a future post. There is a Lubavitch connection also.
And, Zalman, thanks for the Brandeis info.
Marc - take a look at Yaakov Marks "Gedolim fun unzer zayt" and see the wonderful pun Rav Itzhak Elchonon Spector used which perfectly described Chwolson.
Chwolson came from the town of Mihaloshik in the Vilna region and years ago I met a survivor from there who attended Gymnasium in Vilna and told me some local color about Chwolson.Speaking of JTS and the Rav , Dr..AJ Heschel is supposed to have remarked concerning Ish hahalacha - "lo haya velo Nivro".
" RD, Which of course means that only strict opinions get written, and future generations only use strict data points. The system converges to strictness."
KT
joel rich | 11.03.09 - 12:02 pm | #
Not necessarily. But a p'sak based on extenuating circumstances is much more easily abused when it is in writing.
R. Twersky was known in Boston as the Talner Rebbe. That was his title in the Jewish community. Obviously he was a scholar and a gentelman, but he was known throughout the Boston Jewish community only as the Talner Rebbe.
I regards to Rabbi Asher Lopatin letter, the gemara relates to us a argument over if Gd wasted his time in creating the world.
After almost a dozen years it was decided it was NOT in fact worth the effort.
Why pasken a "Hashkafic" issue?
what is the "nafka meena lhalacha"
well if the 'creation effort' was futile; then we cannot make the 'She’asani brachos" in the postive.
Marc: Great article as usual.
I am familiar with Prof. Glatzer's memoir, and always felt it was a great shame that he did not write his critique of Ish ha-Halakhah. An exchange betwen these two giants would have been something. As to the relationship between Ish ha-Hakakhah and LMF, this is a very complex issue. I once asked the Rav how he conceived of their relationship and he answered "I don't know."
Zalman Alpert: Professor Heschel gave a seminar to his class in JTS in 1945 soon after Ish ha-Halakhah appeared, subjecting it to a stringent critique. The seminar contains the seeds of many of Prof. Heschel's later important ideas found in his articles and books. Prof Heschel's talmid muvhak, Rabbi Samuel Dresner took notes of the seminar, and included them in an article he published in Conservative Judaism. (I don't have the reference right now.) There Prof. Heschel's comment "Ish ha-Halakhah lo hayah ve-lo nivra" is to be found. I have completed part of an essay comparing the Rav and Prof. Heschel on the relationship of halakhah and religious experience.
Marc, just to clarify, are these last two posts simply various recollections you wanted to share (and I'm glad you did) or are these actually rough drafts for a book of Memoirs you plan to publish?
(I'm pretty sure the former, but you called it "selection from my memoir" so I dunno)
lawrence kaplan
see Rabbi Samuel Dresner on Prof. Heschel (no not the comment "Ish ha-Halakhah lo hayah ve-lo nivra")just on halakhah and religious experience.
http://books.google.com/books?id...page&q=&
f=false
see page 109 "Sam"
Amshinover: The quote is to be found in Rabbi Dresner's lecture notes of the seminar in his article whose name I believe is "Conservative Judaism: The Vital Center."
jaded: with all your love for the professor's stories, do you make Birchas Hatorah beforehand?
I am certainly not a spokesman for RAK, but logic dictates, knowing the values he held dear, that his traditon continues in THE YESHIVAH WORLD. this is elementary, basic, simple.
while we all apreciate the informative nature of the professor's articles, i'm sure he'll be the first to extort: get some values, and apply them! get real!
if you had ten minutes left in this world would you be able fo focus on the important things in life? wouldn't you want to have left it a better place? should be be embarassed to say that we have an agenda? some goal,purpose,meaning.....
Confused: Reminds me of the first line of "A Study in Scarlet."
Dr. Shapiro,
When Rabbi Louis Ginzberg responded with "I like my whiskey straight", which Glatzer understood as a mild complaint about the mixture of halacha and philosophy,what was he referring to with regards to Ish ha-halacha ?
Also, philosophy may not be primarily based on emotions but at the end of the day it probably is one is goin on the premise that philosophy is primarily based on speculation.
What part of speculation would not be based on feelings and opinions, which are generally based on emotions.
Out of the Whirlwind,
I dont generally do the "birchas hatorah" blessing ever,(unless you cant different references in the morning prayers) but maybe I should start with this essay.
I did not mean to suggest that all industries like kiruv,hareidiism,yeshivishism and related forms of wishy washy ness/other organized agendas had adopted the special ed edition of the talmud,just that if they did,and or are inclined towards some of the other sins i mentioned they shouldn't.
Otherwise I love them all dearly with all my heart and soul.
When you say
"his traditon continues in THE YESHIVAH WORLD"
What world and which yeshivas are you referring to specifically, and in 2009.
Please list all the yeshivas and rosh yeshivas your "carrying on the tradition" assertion would apply to, in the order they were born in.
thanx.
Out of the Whirlwind,
hows ure qualified/ bona fide yeshiva students carrying on RAK's tradition list coming along ?
The only qualified yeshiva students I came up with, are the original Lower East Side RJJ Yeshiva High School students.
>The only qualified yeshiva students I came up with, are the original Lower East Side RJJ Yeshiva High School students.
Huh?
jaded: first of all, much thanks to see the comments growing. it's always saddening to see the burn out.
about RAK - i'm still searching! i am up to the stage of finding the prereqesites required, so that i can recognise it when i find it. the 48 ways... However this blog reminds me of the old joke of the guy searching under the streetlamp for something he lost down the block, "this is were the light is!"
Anonymous,
Can you be a little more specific with your vague and ambiguous "huh" query.
Whirlwind was waxing elouqent about the yeshiva world that is carrying on the tradition of RAK. since I had no idea what on earth he could be referring to,I politely and cordially asked him to list which yeshivas and which world he was referring to in the order they were born in.
When thinking about this the only yeshiva students per se, that I came up with , that I would probably really trust when inquiring about the opinions of RAK would be the students of the original Lower East Side yeshiva RJJ that either went to Lakewood when he was alive and or were close to RAK.
My point was specifically about yeshiva students that went to Lakewood.......
From the mouth of sucklings,
Isn't "suckling" one of the prerequisites for the tinok shenishbah 
The prerequisites for the list which is primarily based on your assertion that only the "yeshiva world is carrying on his tradition" would be yeshivas/students of his that are carrying on the TRUE traditions of RAK.
At the end of the day or decade the trait that matters most is the truth.
Dont forget that RAK's yartzheit is November 29,maybe we could organize an all day mussar seminar on the absolute truth, in his memory.
It will have to be co-ed though.
jaded is off her meds again and trolling on another blog.
anonymous,
Which question are you classifying as trolling ?
Do you have any answers other than mockery.
anonymous | 11.06.09 - 2:30 pm,
on footnote #18
Do you agree with the way Glatzer understood Rabbi Louis Ginzberg's "I like my whiskey straight" and how he applied the quote to both of the referenced works of RYBS ?
Do you agree with the way Glazter understood both of the referenced works of RYBS.
Prof. Kaplan beat me to it, but I too leined the haftarah 9from a klaf) at my grandfatehr's nusach s'fard shteible when I was 11. You're davening at the wrong shul.
As someone who was at Brandeis as a student during part of Dr. Shapiro's (I know he would want me to call him Marc, but I am giving him his due kavod) tenure as well as another that of another Orthodox advisor, I would echo all of the stories mentioned here. There are several other interesting stories about Orthodox life at Brandeis that may be worthy to point out.
1. Orthodox students chartered a club through both Hillel and the student senate which was initially called BOG, Brandis Orthodox Group, but quickly became BOO, the Brandeis Orthodox organization as it still known today. It under the aegis of BOO that the Beit Midrash was opened.
2. The Kosher cafeteria at Brandeis is I think failry unique. It is operated in the same dining hall as an unkosher cafeteria. All students, regardless from which kitchen they get their food, must keep their food on a tray. No food is allowed on the tables. During my time, this was enforced by the then elderly Rabbi Mann and volunteer kosher cops (student committee).
3. I agree with Dr. Shapiro that the NEJS faculty resources, along with the fantastic library and archives, are underappreciated by undergraduates.
4. I recall the issue of the Torah procession slightly differently. The issue was raised, debated, learned and the shailah was asked. However, I thought the practice became that a man would carry the Torah on the men's side to the back. At the back there was a table. The Torah was placed on the table, and then picked up by a women who carried the Torah on the women's side. I recall the limiation on the teshuva being the unique kiruv nature of college.
6. The horrendous terorist murder of Allysa Faltow A'H who was on a junior year abroad program shacked the community badly.
5. Since my graduation, I know that Chabad has established a growing presence just off-campus.
Finally, with respect to Rabbi Lopatin. I davened in that shul for a few years when I was living nearby. At the time, he did not hold like this, but held that Birchot HaShachar was not to be said outloud by the Baal Tefilah. The Ball Tefilah said out loud "Baruch Atah" so you knew davening started and then picked up only with the ending of the full paragraph, thus avoiding the "issue".
Hi Aryeh,
Thanks for your recollections. The story with carrying the sefer Torah that you refer to must have happened after my time. I left in May 1994. The story I described happened in the year 1985-1986.
Jaded: I was referring to all of your comments. They are inane, and are clearly from a disturbed mind.
Prof. Shapiro, can you explain how Aryeh Cohen was able to serve as Orthodox adviser? I mean, I have my problems with Gopin, who seems to be a subject of a bracha I say thrice daily, but that's politics. Cohen isn't even Orthodox, and his official bio says he ran an egalitarian minyan at Brandeis.
anonymous | 11.12.09 - 8:04 am,
Would it be possible to repeat your curiously vague claims, using your real name, so I can better understand who you are.
Aryeh
#6 "Allysa Faltow A'H"
You mean Alisa Flatow A'H, I remember when she died as if it were yesterday, it was so sad.
Nachum,
His bio said that he was part of an egalitarian community in BOSTON, when he was a student at Brandeis. This community was not at Brandeis.
As for your question, certainly you know that people's views evolve. In his first years at Brandeis he identified with Orthodoxy. He later moved away from Orthodoxy. He is not the first to do so.
Point taken. I'm sure you'll understand how someone can be uncomfortable with an "Orthodox leader" whose "views evolved" rather quickly, and while still at the same institution.
Jaded, you're some person to be asking for real names, huh?
Nachum Lamm,
I don't recall asking for your opinion.
I'm not the "some person" calling any one person disturbed and unmedicated.
On a different note,
"He argues that that is the main reason for saying three b’rachot in the negative (shelo asani) instead of one b’racha in the positive (she’asani Yisrael) – basically, if you would say “She’asani Yisrael” then you couldn’t say “Shelo asani aved, isha”."
How is/would "Yisrael" be defined, for this particular blessing.
jaded: Nachum Lamm was just pointing to your inconsistency regarding pseudonyms. And for someone who offers her opinions about everything multiple times and after fellow boggers have repeatedly told her that they are NOT interested in discussing the issue any more, you are one to talk. anon may have been -- indeed, was-- unnecesarily crude and hurtful, but I implore you to stop and think for a moment why it is that so many fellow bloggers find your comments to be so exaaperating, annoying, and infuriating. Do you really believe that we are all out of line except for you?!
lk,
are you his thread lawyer ?
I dont recall asking for your mistaken fact free opinion of my comments, either.
Is a simple question on the definition of "yisrael" when used in a blessing, against the law now too ?
"after fellow boggers have repeatedly told her that they are NOT interested in discussing the issue any more,"
Is this a true statement ?
"so many fellow bloggers"
list them all.
jaded topaz: I thought I might be able to reason with you. My mistake. I shouldn't have bothered.
lk,
same here,
I dont recall insisting on having discussions with anyone that said they did "NOT" want to.
I do recall questioning assertions, assertions that had already been made by others.
I asked for a list of names for the "so many fellow bloggers".
You can email a petition around, as I only accept original signatures.
Just for the thread record, I shut up long ago, my rhetorical footnote #18 question to the anonymous that suggested that i was an unmedicated troll, was obviously a joke.
I corrected the spelling for Alisa Flatow, may she rest in peace, cuz i thought that was the correct thing to do in case anyone wants to google her name. nothing inane, annoying or infuriating about that either.
And then I asked a simple definition question for "yisrael".
Jaded Tpaz: Indeed, every now and then you make valid points and observations and ask reasonable questions. I have even occasion responded positively to them. How unfortunate it is that all too often you go off on multiple, lengthy and almost incoherent rants. And, no, I will not provide examples.
dr kaplan,
points taken, all of them.
I just wanted to point out that
These days i'm more into secondguessing everything/everyone as opposed to the example free "multiple, lengthy almost incoherent rants" you keep alluding to.
So that would be an interrogatory/document demand/deposition problem as opposed to an opinion problem.
b)there is no need to start your mussar with something positive .
I'm tougher than that, don't worry at this point in my life, I can handle anything, trust me.
My too many points about RAK and his opinions was that for starters, he may have been brilliant, but his yeshiva appears to have be built on the Slabodka/mussar ideologies, which generally promotes yeridas hadoros at a fairly quick rate for some reason.
The only yeshiva that I can think of that was started for all the right reasons and with all the right people was the lower east side RJJ, so I concluded that any lower east side RJJ guys that somehow wound up in Lakewood/were friends with RAK, would be the trustworthy *yeshivish* individuals, with regards to understanding RAK's philosophies as opposed to projecting their own philosophies in the name of RAK.
(whirlwinds/anonymous/from the mouth of sucklings,were suggesting that if they want to know RAK's opinion they would be going to the yeshivas/studensts that are continuing his tradition,but I had no idea what they could have meant in 2009)
Thanks for the points that ure correct on.
Marc,
Was that the same Rabbi Gopin who was the head of Mizrachi Canada for many years here in Toronto?
Rafael Araujo: No. That was Rabbi Mendi Gopin, the author of Davening with the Rav.
Nachum Lamm:
"there's an old Italian women's siddur (at JTS) that reads "SheAsani Isha V'Lo Ish.""
it's sheasitani isha
see
http://agmk.blogspot.com/2008/11...th-c-
italy.html
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