Signaleer
is their some kind of evidence available to support the "only poor people are in the military" argument? he keeps mentioning children of the privileged. um, has he taken a survey? besides i've seen mentioned elswhere that some of the most well to do counties are "blue", do you really expect them to be encouraging this? huh mister! maybe you should talk to your friends about this.
There is a trend in military service with lower income individuals enlisting and middle class individuals getting commissions. It's not too hard to figure out why and it's the persuit of the college education.
The miltary funds college for the lower income groups through tuition assitance and the GI Bill, serve first, then college. For the middle class, they have teh "seed money" to get started, but they often need a little help, again tuition assistance (especially state national guard programs) and ROTC represent the bulk of that.
Still, there remains a spark of something in each of us that make the decision to sign the dotted line that, if not present will not allow for that signature to be made.
I remain convinced that parents and family are the largest determinators for military service. Studies have also shown that exposure of service age young people to veterans is of critical importance. The dwindling number of veterans is the most probable cause of lower enlsitment rates.
Thanks for the link to Lifelike Pundits...
BTW, my father is a retired Lt. Col from the Signal Core. Served in Gulf War and Somalia. Great site!
Not much to say after you got through with this article! But I do have a question when people refer to Pres. Bush needing to send his daughter into harm's way to prove the war is worth it: Who do they think the number one target the terrorists would love to kill is? Is it not the Commander in Chief? Being his daughters, are they not in danger all the time (what's with all the security?)? When he made a decision to take on terrorists, he had to know that he was endangering himself and his family. I'd love to hear from a Secret Service agent about what extraordinary precautions they have to take now that we are at war.
Oh... and thank you for your service. I, for one, have the war at the forefront of my mind, and I know that sacrifices are being made by brave and heroic people and that it IS for a good cause. I paid attention to the kind of life they lived in Afghanistan under the Taliban, and the fact that our soldiers and their CINC are making damned sure that we aren't put in that situation does matter to me. I often wonder how the far left misses the fact that it is the very liberties that they hold dear that would be dismantled by an Islamist regime. In that case, we wouldn't hear complaining from them, because instead of being able to shout about their limited rights (including, ironically enough, the limits they say the "neocons" in power put on free speech) in the media and from the rooftops, they'd be killed in the public square for uttering anything that sounded like defiance. Can you imagine Saddam's reaction (and he was a liberal compared to the Taliban) if some mother parked herself outside of his palace and denegrated him, and demanded to see him in person so that she could accuse him of all manner of deprivation? Amazing what you have to ignore when you set about disparaging this country.
I pray that the Islamists (and their supporters) change their hearts and minds, but until they do, brave people have to stand between evil and the innocent. Thank you for being one of those brave people.
Great blog I had a trackback on my post to you. Of all the Op-Eds, I hate this guy the most. I would love to carry my retired military ass up tp NY and kick his.
Since I had to take a break, I'll be posting about this in a few days. I'll be sure to link to this. You did a great job.
NYgirl,
Be sure to let me know when it's up. I'll trackback to it and add an update link.
Great post. Thank you for writing it and for serving our nation. I followed the links and am appalled that people can not see the threat to our nation. Perhaps President Bush could be more of a cheerleader for the military effort but I think he has quite a few irons in the fire. GWB is one human being and he has an incredible responsibility to protect and defend America. In stead of assisting him, the detractors heap scorn on him and our brave troops. God bless the men and women who care enough about our nation to serve and risk their lives that we may remain a free people. I don't care what their economic status was when volunteering, those who enter the service are the top tier of our nation. Money, education and social level do not matter when they are willing to defend me. The rich and famous who denigrate our nation, CIC and troops are truly the dregs of our nation.
I grew up quite comfortably upper middle class. I enlisted at 18, later got a commission and have been in 20.5 years now. I would ask Mr. Herbert, "whatever could have possessed me to do that"?! I'm glad RTO had the strong stomach to wade through that article and fisk it - Lord knows I didn't.
..........I agree that W sitting about in the oval office, fretting over the mess W created wouldn't save many soldiers or Marines right now. As a staunch believer in good leadership and non verbal communication, I do know that it is irksome, at the very least, that he can't bear to show up at some of our funerals. Between that and skating out of Vietnam by blowing off a cherry flight slot, our Warrior King doesn't rate highly in the 'service' category. Combine this with his five week (is there anyone else on the planet that gets a vacation THAT long?) vacation during wartime and it gets ugly. Perception is reality to many. I try not to be one of those folks, but it gets hard when 'winners' of the 'SGLI sweepstakes' are getting less than Israelis in Gaza are to move out. Kinda helps us understand what the priorties are.
Remember that non-verbal communication thingy?
I understand that the GWOT is fourth generation warfare ( even if those in echelons above reality don't). As such, it is not as subject to the easily tracked trappings of taking and holding territory. Howsomever, taking Fallujah two and a half times, Samarra thrice, and Mosul/Tal Afar on a quarterly basis, a successful campaign doth not make. And that was simply for the year I was there.
W has asked parents to offer their spawn for this war, but doesn't do so himself. Whether he should do so is not the point. Here comes that non-verbal commo thing again. What W has done ( or not done in this case) speaks so loudly that many parents can't hear a thing he says to them or asks of them.
Ask any recruiter.
Cyborg,
I addressed almost every point you made already. maybe a response to that is in order?
FWIW, I don't accept the idea of Fourth Generation Warfare. The proponents of this are simply describig 1st and 2nd gen tactics applied against a 3rd gen opponent. It also implies that in order to progress that we mist adopt a 4th gen military set. If anything is 4th Generation, it's Network Centric Warfare which would represent a progression rather than a regression.
You have ? I apologize, I don't know where you did- I'm admittedly new to this blog thing. Do you refer to your comments on Herbert's spew?
BTW, It's worth a lot, RTO: NetCentric warfare is synchronization and maneuver to the max . It is HUGELY rooted in force on force engagements and designed to support that activity. . If anything, it represents a step backward in terms of confronting a 4GW, assymetrical threat and was never meant to be a template for unconventional warfare.
You may want to do a refresher on what 4GW is. 1 , 2 and 3GW tactics have NOTHING to do with 4GW tactics, it surprises me that you'd post that.
As an armed force, we're still VERY much rooted in conventional warfare. It had it's place in the OIF mess, but is becoming increasingly less effective. We 're butchers asked to the work of brain surgeons. It can be done, it'll just be bloody, needlessly so- and lot of that blood is ours. And our unconventional capability is running low........
Achmed and Nutmeg don't give a hoot about the revolution in military affairs. They're far more interested with how many more of us they can get with very decentralized, non-netCentric, low tech IEDs.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different outcome.
Vietnam
Iraq
Anyone detecting a trend yet?
Cyborg.
My main points would be found in the body of the article to which these comments are attached. So yes, well put; my comments on Mr. Herbert's spew.
You confuse the application of NCW with it's potential. That the operators haven't learned yet what the new software will do is not a limitation in the software.
What is refered to as 4th Generation Warfare, is nothing new. It might even be accurately characterized as Pre-Generational Warfare. I characterized it as using 1st and 2nd gen tactics against our 3rd gen force as a way of summarizing that our current opponent will borrow whatever they can reasonably use/get their hands on. (including some sophisticated technology--not wise to underestimate Achmed and Nutmeg.)
Without much further persuasion I have to reject your contention of a trend. There are scant similariteis between Iraq and Vietnam, especailly in light of the differences.
I do know that it is irksome, at the very least, that he can't bear to show up at some of our funerals.
please feel free to name a president that has done this. (the only example i've heard of is LBJ and that was only because the soldiers being buried were close family friends)
Combine this with his five week (is there anyone else on the planet that gets a vacation THAT long?) vacation during wartime
um, congress? that would be why he doesn't feel compelled to stay in d.c. the whole month.
I try not to be one of those folks, but it gets hard when 'winners' of the 'SGLI sweepstakes' are getting less than Israelis in Gaza are to move out. Kinda helps us understand what the priorties are.
could you please provide your source for this? i can't find where we've given money for the gaza move out.
Maggie:
The funerals :
The offer, simply the perception that our CINC shares the pain and the strain is the point. There is an abyss between W and those of us who serve. It wasn't like that with his father, probably because Bush senior has put it out on the line before and didn't hide from his duty. I can't claim to know W very well. Unlike his father, we share little in common.
Would it be too much to ask the CinC to 'sacrifice' some of his vacation time during a time of war? What would it cost him to actually appear to be willing to set the standard? Talk about a message sent.
Ynetnews , 21Aug05
http://www.ynetnews.com/
articles...3130789,00.html
Point and click away.........
What are your questions?
Cyborg.
Cyborg, Maggie has a point; why should this President establish an easily abused precident?
I don't perceive this abyss between the Presidnet and I that you cite and I don't note that my fellows of my Brigade do either except in a few exceptions.
Why doesn't he get credit for the many private meetings that he has given and continues to give? He doesn't hodl them to time limits and it isn't done as a cheap photo-op.
you sure like to recycle your replys don't you? but you didn't answer my original question about what OTHER president has ever attended funerals. also, what is he going to do in d.c. right now that he can't do in Crawford? as far as the money goes, how does that relate to individual life insurance payouts? israel originally asked for two million, and we're giving them half that. and the article says nothing about individual payments. again HOW does this relate?
Maggie's got another point, Cyborg. The money is going to Israel, not individuals. Israel will use it to compensate settlers for thier lost property, just like in our own takings clause, fair market value and such. So that'd be an apples and oranges comparision. Maybe if we were discussing the Kelo case or the new Cowboys' stadium in Arlington....
Where to begin.........
(RTO, I'll respond to your spew reactions in another post. This one is gonna be large enough. )
Maggie:
What is it about "resettling evacuees in the southern Negev and northern Galilee regions" that confuses you? My turn to to reject a contention. Apples and oranges? NOT ! And that's billion, with a 'b', not million. Typos happen. You'll have that.
You miss my point. There is a perception that W and those about him are out of touch with reality, aloof, priviledged. ( Note to RTO: the Army is a big place. I'm not RA, sounds as if you are. Come take a poll in that neck of the woods sometime......). Lots of stuff contributes to this. My personal favorite is the Cheney confusion about linking 9/11 to Iraq....or not, depending on when you ask him. The list is long, and none to distinguished.
My admitted mistake for using the funeral attendance as proof positive. There far better examples of this disconnect, and I went for the most salient. I need to quit writing these at work.
What I should have mentioned was the ongoing decimation of the reserve component, especially in the Army, or this world class object lesson on mission creep (UN compliance, WMD hunt...no democracy and liberation.....errr no it's the GWOT), an elective war devoid of proper pre war preparation and post war planning, ad infinitum, ad nausea.
Which provides a great segue to answering you, RTO. Into Iraq we went, kicking ALL that butt. NO surprise there, it's what we do best, especially conventionally. Mission Accomplished.
Conventionally speaking at least.
I never claimed 4GW was new and you are correct in saying it isn't. RTO....1st gen warfare went out with the musket and the industrial revolution, 2nd went out with the intro of manuever as we know it today. I don't think you know where one generation starts and the other stops. Admittedly, there are periods where it gets hazy ( our Civil War spans 1GW and 2GW for instance). Here's a quick primer for you:
First generation --Nepoleanic wars, conscription and intro of firearms, less use of mercenaries.
Second generation -- Wars now fought by nation states, trench warfare, WWI
Third generation -- intro of mass maneuver and armored warfare. Blitzkrieg, combined arms doctrine.
Fourth generation -- non nation state, geopolitical players, advent of moral conflict.
Not much trench warfare going on in theater. No 'insurgent' air force or armoured corps to hit either. The 'Insurgent' concept of comined arms ops is an IED with small arms fire, with some mortars if they can spare em or risk the firefinder net. Where's the use of these 1st and 2nd generation tactics, RTO?
OUR ( as in military) lack of mental agility in adapting to 4GW has led to idiot mistakes from ' Mission Accomplished' to paying for this crash cour
....se education in US blood most every day.
RTO, I suspect W doesn't get credit for these other visits you mention because he won't take responsibility. He won't admit he was wrong, full stop, end of list. Is it a good thing that Iraq is a now a full service theme park for terrorists instead of ....say, Beloit, Ill ? Sure it is......for us, at least for now. So long as VBIED means nothing more than a buncha letters to most folks in the US, all is good.
Isn't it?
And finally, if you can't see the trend, you aren't looking. The US is spending blood and treasure to establish and train a government and military that will crumble without aid. The enemy is non conventional and supplied by safe havens off limits due to geopolitical constraints. One of the few differences I find is how we are treated as soldiers on return, which is truly a gift.
I do this to vent, true enough, but also to learn. What are the differences between this mess and Vietnam. Fire for effect.
Standing by,
Cyborg
What is it about "resettling evacuees in the southern Negev and northern Galilee regions" that confuses you?
um, okay, still not seeing how giving money to isreal compares to insurance payouts. once you can give me a figure as to how much each person is getting, i might concede it. but it also costs money to send forces in to remove people as well as tear everything down. i haven't been able to find said figures.
(RTO, I'll respond to your spew reactions in another post. This one is gonna be large enough. )
Perhaps I've misinterpreted your meaning here. Assuming for a moment that I haven't, a word of caution:
This is my blog and I will control the content. If you won't be and remain civil, you will not post here.
I am available for whatever abuse on USENET under the same posting handle as that is a completley open forum. In this one, my sensibilities reign.
We'll proceed for now with a presumption of innocense on your behalf and if I've misread I apologize.
okay, i found something.... http://www.npr.org/templates/
sto...storyId=4775357
but, it doesn't appear that all of these funds are coming from the us. still it's kind of a stretch to compare these isn't it? i mean, i'm assuming since sgli is basically life insurance soldiers are making payments into it. those removed from gaza are being payed for the land that they are leaving, as rto pointed out it's more akin to eminent domain.
Note to RTO: the Army is a big place. I'm not RA, sounds as if you are. Come take a poll in that neck of the woods sometime.
You really ought to read my blog. I'm a National Guardsman (45th INF BDE, OKARNG). http://signaleer.blogspot.com/
20...fghanistan.html
My personal favorite is the Cheney confusion about linking 9/11 to Iraq....or not, depending on when you ask him.
I've linked 9/11 to Iraq. http://signaleer.blogspot.com/
20...connection.html What of it?
What I should have mentioned was the ongoing decimation of the reserve component, especially in the Army, or this world class object lesson on mission creep (UN compliance, WMD hunt...no democracy and liberation.....errr no it's the GWOT), an elective war devoid of proper pre war preparation and post war planning, ad infinitum, ad nausea.
The reserve component is and will be just fine. As for our aims going into Iraq, did you not know that Congress outlined 23 reasons for authorizing force? http://signaleer.blogspot.com/20...mds-
period.html Your list doesn't even scratch the surface. Hard to creep teh mission when this was the plan going in, though.
1st gen warfare went out with the musket and the industrial revolution, 2nd went out with the intro of manuever as we know it today. I don't think you know where one generation starts and the other stops.
1st Generation is the introduction of the state as warmaker. Roughly 1648--Treaty of Westphalia. 2nd Generation is the introduction of maneuver and began in US terms withteh ending months of the Civil War, though it had to be relearned for WWI despite all attempt by out allies to ignore our hard won lessons learned. 3rd Generation is the introduction of depth and industrial age manufacturing. WWII is the usual milestone though it can be seen developing in German shock tactics at the end of WWI. Some Recommended Reading: Breaking the Phalanx and Transformation Under Fire by Douglas MacGregor. Sveral good articles by Robert Steele of Open Source Solutions and many artilcles from the Center for Strategic Studies that will help you with this.
Here's why the 4th Generation hypothesis is false: http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi...eds/
2005feb.pdf
Not much trench warfare going on in theater. No 'insurgent' air force or armoured corps to hit either. The 'Insurgent' concept of comined arms ops is an IED with small arms fire, with some mortars if they can spare em or risk the firefinder net. Where's the use of these 1st and 2nd generation tactics, RTO?
You dont' think the insurgents aren't employing a modifed form of trench warfare? A trench isn't always literal. And of course they won't be employing massed formations, but you can see by the increasing sizes of the IEDs employed, forceing a change in our armor and tactics a parallel to the massed firepower a
...nd attrition of WWI.
You'll have to show me that the President is wrong. If this is wrong, I've been waiting for a President with the guts to be this wrong since 1983.
I suspect that the President doesn't get credit for family visits because he deliberately doesn't seek credit; it would smack of political opportunism if he did. ...and those who wouldn't give credit for it anyway can blythly ignore or discount it.
As to the question of here or there: http://signaleer.blogspot.com/20...s-
quagmire.html
A place to start for comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam is here: http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi...et/
iraqviet.pdf
There's also this comparision of Iraq and Vietnam: http://www.imao.us/archives/001377.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different outcome."
I'd say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again (comparining any use of force to Vietnam) while expecting the SAME outcome...
RTO
Raaawger, understand you in the OKArNG. Thanks for the links. Again, I'm new to your blog/pages.
Your unit got to go to Afganistan. Many a day was it that we, and those around us in REMFville ( LSA Anaconda) , wished we were in Afganistan. Sure it's a bit more dangerous, and we'd not have had the relative perks, but we'd have all felt as if we were helping to accomplish SOMETHING more than simply surving a year in an impact area.
That YOU think there is a link between Iraq and 11Sep01 is not what I was referring to. I was referring to Cheney saying that he'd never made that connection. This was back during the US elections. They'd show footage of Cheney in denial just before they showed a few clips of him saying what he 'didn't say' on several talkshows. That was a hoot. Goes to credibility.
Your assertion that 'The reserve component is and will be just fine' is truly out of touch with reality. I'm glad you and yours seem to be just fine. Elsewhere in the RC, it's not nearly as joyful. Optempo is riduculous, mobe and post mobe trng is mostly useless, and we're sucking wind so far as equipment and ammo go. You asked about mistakes W has made and this one stands out: an elective war with ill prepared plans and forces. LTG Helmly's memo of 20 Dec 04 pretty much lays it out what I assumed you already knew- the USAR in particular, and the RC in general is well on its way to becoming a 'broken force'.
Section 3 of Public Law 107-243 clearly authorizes the President to use military force to:
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
Here comes another mistake. W decided to sell the war as an enforcement action, he defined that threat as WMD. Wrong answer. It's terribly trite mention something about law and fine print in light of 1800 US deaths. This mess was sold to the US public on WMD and enforcement. It is a happy coincidence that Iraq, instead of North America, has turned into terrorist playground; though it's not that happy a development for the Iraqis we were sent to 'liberate'.
I'm not seeing where we differ terribly much on the generations of warfare, until we get to 4GW. We could, with the resources available on the web, argue which engagement fits which profile to little avail.
Your rejection of the importance and effects of 4GW warfare have huge implications, however....and regardless of the study cited, or pundit named, 4GW will continue to be effective against conventional military doctrine, and THAT'S the bottom line. I'm more than glad...proud actually, that you had a hand in helping stand up the Afgan Army. Unfortunately, conventional miliatry tactics play into the hands of 4GW practitioners. It's not enough to win militar
MAJ John:
Sir, I'd actually call what you describe 'science', or perhaps 'practice' (in the intransitive sense: To do something repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill. )
Time to get to your spew remarks on Herbert's article.
'It’s an article of faith that the war is going badly, that the people who are actually there keep saying otherwise doesn’t matter. The supposition is that if they keep saying this it will become true, or at least that you and I will buy into it and then it’ll be ‘true enough.’ '
I 'spose it depends on who you ask. I spent a year there, things weren't going well. Yes, there WE'RE good days ( establishment of Iraqi govt, the elections) but those were the exception, not the rule. My buddies there now note little improvementl. Do know that we're of different branches, (commo, aviation, ordinance.....), all in the Sunni triangle.
I'm also confused about how you gage the state of the war, since you reject 4GW. No front lines, and taking and holding territory is not really an accurate indication. What do YOU use, RTO ?
"I get frustrated with the lack of substantive coverage too, Bob, but you aren’t part of the solution with this one, are you? "
If I hear one more doggone thing about N. Holloway or any other idiot chick that got herself missing, I'll.....sit and take it like I've been forced to for years. No disagreement here.
"Bob, you should go to a VA hospital. There is one near you. While you are there, rather than just gawking and shaking your head, you should also talk to the men and women there. Better yet, don’t talk. Just listen."
Thank you.
We didn't join to be entertainment, and that comment of Herbert's is insulting. Of course, he'd likely not listen to what he can't understand. Idiot comments like how boring this fight is reek of a lack of perspective and an inability to empathize.
".......... that the President’s office travels with him? There’s nothing he can’t do in Crawford that he could do in D.C. "
Hoookay, then why doesn't W simply go back to DC for a bit, cut the vacation short, SET THE STANDARD ? It doesn't sound as if W is truly 'getting away from it all'.
"...... It’s worked exactly as billed too. Surely you know a Guard member or Reservist who is, has or will deploy? If not, that’s a reflection on you and not on the nation. The fact is that most people do know someone. That’s the sacrifice. That’s the shared experience."
Being in the Guard today is not like being in the Guard when W skipped out of his flight slot. The whole GWOT experience has redefined and warped the Total Army concept as for it to be unrecognizable.
"And neither you nor the Times point out that the armor was sufficient early on, that the bombs being faced are getting bigger. "
What should have been focused on was that we were not ready for IEDs. Our vehicles weren't made to deal with them, and the ad hoc fixes are simply that....ad hoc. I agree that the charges are larger now, (seen and heard that for myself), but this is about that elective war / lack of preparedness th
thingy.
"The other implication here; well, Mr. Herbert, how willing are you to send your son or daughter off to Iraq? If the answer is not a resounding “100%!” I’d recommend dropping this argument. You aren’t qualified to make it."
This is sort of a red herring. We joined up because we wanted to, for whatever reason. It doesn't matter that Mom or Dad wishes you'd be a doctor or plumber ( unless you join before age 1
. It is interesting to note that W has asked parents to speak to their spawn about the importance of military service. I wonder if he's done the same and can't help but to doubt he has. It matters not, however, his kids ain't kids, they're adults and make their own decisions accordingly.
"I’ll admit that the administration has not done the job of communicating our goals as they should be. I know that, since they explained it and then did not continue explaining it, that you have interpreted the period at the end as a negation of all that came before. If you don’t know the goals and causes, that sir, simply shows you as ignorant."
No more so than the current administration, it seems. OIF has turned into rule by crisis mitigation, and this has been the case since the end of major combat ops. The reason for the lack of commo regarding our goals is because the administration didn't know themselves, the goals were and still are redefining themselves, a moving target.
"If you, your child, or the child of any other parent has to be coerced into civic responsibility, I do not want them sharing a foxhole with me. I do not want them in my Army. I do not even want them doing Army paperwork or mopping Army floors thousands of miles away. I only want the people around me and in my profession that share the same sense of duty and commitment that I possess."
Again, thanks. The word 'draft' scares the hell out of me.
I linked to this yesterday, but Haloscan won't ping.
Awesome post!
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