>Which reminds me of a saying of R' Noach Weinberg's: "Do not judge Judaism by the Jews".
I disagree completely.
I disagree completely.
Why?
The way some people act should not be an indication of how we're supposed to act.
R. Yakov Kaminetsky zt"l would tell people not to wear their tallis in the streets on shabbos because "we don't have to act as if we own the streets". Isn't it ironic that the same people who oppose the State of Israel because "we are still in Galus", can't seem to understand that Boro Park is also part of Galus.
As to owning the streets, I have heard (when I was taking the Def. Driving course with a lot of Senior citizens) resentment at the fact that the Orthodox walk in the middle of the streets on Shabbos, posing an inconvenience to drivers that they take as a deliberate affront to those who are not Sh. Shabbos.
>>>Which reminds me of a saying of R' Noach Weinberg's: "Do not judge Judaism by the Jews".
Who should we judge frum Jews by? As far as I am concerned the chillul Hashem is worse than any others of recent memory. And, it doesn't speak well of a "Torah Only" community and the education and parenting going on.
But, I don't think that hooliganism and no-goodniks are the rule of Boro Park, nor do I think that others communities are immune from this behavior. There are some root causes and it is time to understand them and comat them before we just look like another group of uncivilized fools.
I apologize if this comment seems snide...but you mean to say there can be rioting in Jewish neighborhoods that is not "invoked" by black people?
(I confess, I am a Black ger-in-training...I find any type of baseless hatred between Yidden very, very sad!)
>Why?
Why? Because what else do we have to judge it on? Isn't Christianity AWESOME?
Why? Because what else do we have to judge it on? Isn't Christianity AWESOME?
Judge it on it's own merits. Learn and study it. Don't just make judgements based on the way people act, because many times they themselves need to study it some more. At least that's the way I understand what he meant.
I apologize if this comment seems snide...but you mean to say there can be rioting in Jewish neighborhoods that is not "invoked" by black people?
Huh?
>Judge it on it's own merits. Learn and study it. Don't just make judgements based on the way people act, because many times they themselves need to study it some more. At least that's the way I understand what he meant.
My point is that its a meaningless disctinction.
A great case can be made that Marxism is the most equitable and righteous system to have ever been devised by man. But so what? We judge theories and systems and philosophies and religions by their practical results.
And by saying this do not think I am saying that Judaism is a bad religion. But certainly Judaism can be judged by its Jews, and Islam by its Muslims &c.
S:
That's exactly the point. Of course people DO judge Judaism by the Jews, Islam by the Muslims, etc. But the point is to plead with people NOT to do that.
>That's exactly the point. Of course people DO judge Judaism by the Jews, Islam by the Muslims, etc. But the point is to plead with people NOT to do that.
And that is why I disagree. Because it makes no sense not to. Don't you agree that Christianity has much to commend itself for?
Here are some things:
- promotes love and altruism
- promotes moral virtue
- discourages violence
- offers eternal life
- encourages forgiveness and reconciliation
- etc.
But would you really disregard 2000 years of murder and mayhem because of that? Granted, one ought to have a realistic and nuanced view of Christianity, and that must include its history as well as its Platonic sense of self. And ve-im tomar that all the murder and mayhem *has* grounding in actual elements in Christianity, one can show that a lot of the krumkeit you ask people to ignore about Jews also has grounding.
In short, why should anyone ignore a most crucial piece of the puzzle to judge a relgion? If we do that then nearly every philosophy and religion gets high marks. After all, rarely do successful movements devise social theories with the intent of making bad things and promoting evil.
S:
Point taken. But I have problems with Christian dogma itself, I don't have to resort to it's violent history to discredit it in my mind. And Islam is now showing that people do not necessarily judge it by the actions of Muslims. I hear many times people saying that it's really a religion of peace, terrorists are corrupting real Islam, etc. The actions of Muslim certainly doesn't show that.
>Point taken. But I have problems with Christian dogma itself, I don't have to resort to it's violent history to discredit it in my mind.
Who cares about the dogma? If the points I outlined above were implented by 2 billion people in practice it would be a raayah berurah that Mashiach had come.
>And Islam is now showing that people do not necessarily judge it by the actions of Muslims. I hear many times people saying that it's really a religion of peace, terrorists are corrupting real Islam, etc.
Yeah, and they're being stupid.
>The actions of Muslim certainly doesn't show that.
Exactly.
Who cares about the dogma? If the points I outlined above were implented by 2 billion people in practice it would be a raayah berurah that Mashiach had come.
I'm not so sure about that. If 2 billion non-Jews adapted all the above, does that mean that Mashiach has come even if all the Jews do not accept him as such? I don't think the Rambam would agree. The dogma makes a big difference IMO. If Moshiach would say "'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me", would we think the man is really Moshiach (even if we had other reasons to believe so)? I hope not.
I'm being a little facetious. What I meant was that if we lived in Utopia we'd know it.
if rumor has it right there is video of the whole incident, i wonder how many minds will change after seeing the video
Sorry Shtender;
It came off a leftover thought that pointed out riots in Crown Heights and Williamsburg between Black people and Jews as the reason why many frum Jews don't trust Black people.
It's funny -- sometimes comments drag a post down into the gutter; but sometimes they elevate the conversation beyond what the topic deserves. This seems ostensibly like the latter.
I haven't seen video -- only photos -- but I notice that many of the protesters/rioters were young men in their teens or thereabouts. Let's see: it was bein hazmanim, their mothers wanted them out from underfoot, they were tired of learning, and they were hanging around outside without very much to do. And, of course, all of them were exhibiting the well-developed common sense we associate with post-adolescent boys . . .
This excuses nothing. It was a tremendous chilul Hashem. But I have a feeling it would never have happened had it been mid-January with a sub-zero wind chill factor. Our community does a lot to keep young men from doing anything exceptionally stupid, but occasionally they escape. I have a feeling plenty of mamas and papas in BP had plenty to say to their "zuneles" last night!
But would you really disregard 2000 years of murder and mayhem because of that?
Point taken. But I have problems with Christian dogma itself, I don't have to resort to it's violent history to discredit it in my mind.
Rabbosai,
The 2000 years of murder and mayhem have more to do with the fact that Christianity flourished in Europe than with any intrinsic flaws in Christianity. Two thousand years ago most of Europe was tribal, violent, and savage. A veneer of Romanism and Christianity scarcely changed the situation, and progress was slow and painfull.
An argument could be made that Europe and her heirs (including us, tayere readers) are still not fully civilized. But we're closer now than we have been.
That being said, Christian dogma, in many cases, has not contributed to tolerance and inter-communal understanding (and has often encouraged the opposite), untill recently. The focus has changed somewhat in our times.
I say this not to defend Christianity, but to clarify.
Christian dogma is something that I also have problems with.
When I pay it any attention.
>The 2000 years of murder and mayhem have more to do with the fact that Christianity flourished in Europe than with any intrinsic flaws in Christianity.
I agree, and I disagree. I agree with you in the sense that you're simply right about the state of European civilization 1800 years ago, 1000 years ago &c. But I disagree with you because Christianity's failure to civilize in a timely fashion shows flaws. Note that I'm saying that all religions, including Judaism, need to be judged not only by its principles but by its application too.
But I disagree with you because Christianity's failure to civilize in a timely fashion shows flaws. Note that I'm saying that all religions, including Judaism, need to be judged not only by its principles but by its application too.
That is a very good point.
Perhaps the problem is that progress is measured by the standards of the age in which one looks back.
I suspect that our ancestors, had they been able to look ahead, would have been startled at the speed with which attitude and hashkofo changed.
{Judge it on it's own merits. Learn and study it.}
Without trying to pass judgement on the non-Jewish residents of Crown Heights, i would like to point out that they will most probably never "have the time", or be bothered to "learn and study" Judaism.
It is therefore the responsibility of the Jews- those who have "learnt and studied" Yiddishkeit- to give them a good impression of Judaism by acting in a way fit for the "Chosen People".
*Crown Heights: or Boro Park or anywhere in the world...
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