Excellent post. Sad state of affairs that it is necessary but, given that this is where things are, it is an excellent post (as usual).
What is clear is that youre not Israeli.
What is clear is that you dont understand the Israeli system or mentality.
What is clear is that the leadership has some sort of vested interest is a few crazies going, well, crazy.
What is not clear is exactly what that agenda is. Is it to scare the marchers? Is it to scare the police into realizing that you cant control everyone, and if at last years parade someone got thru to stab a marcher, it will happen again?
In my opinion, it's not much different than those who throw rocks at people who drive through their neighborhood on shabbos, or those who spray bleach at people who do not dress according to the standards of the neighborhood. Let's analyze for a second why they would throw rocks at someone who is driving through their neighborhood on shabbos.
Is it because they are concerned for the driver and want him to stop being michalel shabbos? Obviously not, because throwing rocks at him, if anything, would make him do it more. It distances him from whatever frum yiddishkeit has to offer. So I have to discount that reason.
Is it because they themselves feel they have to be 'mocheh' when they see chilul shabbos? Perhaps it started from there, but being mocheh is something that is halachic, throwing rocks at cars is not according to halachah for multiple reasons. So either they don't know the basics of halacha, they know it and choose to ignore it, or I have to discount this reason as well.
So what prompts them to cause such a chilul hashem? I think it boils down to a control issue - nothing to do with halacha. WE asked you not to drive through our streets, for whatever reason. YOU choose to ignore us. WE will not take that lightly. WE will respond with force, even if it's not a halachic response. Even if we make a chilul Hashem. Their rabbonim, by never speaking out against it (that I know of) play an active part in supporting this kind of public chilul Hashem.
Same thing here. WE take offence at this march (and rightfully so, in my opinion). We said not to march through our city. The government, who hates us anyway, ignored our demand. We will respond in force, not because of the offensive parade but because our demands were ignored.
Feel free to disagree.
I remember when I was learning in EY that plenty of BDT'Z mochoa/hafgana signs warned against all voilence.I even remember them having a car with aloudspeaker asking in the name of beis din no voilence should be done.It had very little effect on the {small amount of}rabble invovlved in it but one can not sat noone protests at all.If even the BDT'Z is ignored surely leaders of other chareide groups would gain nothing by protesting voilence.
Another point to consider is the cycle of voilence.Remembering completly innocent people being beaten black and blue by the police for having been-not by but in the- in the vicinty of a hafgana one can understand why a teenager growing up and living his whole life under such hostilty would respond in kind.
You're all missing something though:
The Gedolim have already told people to stop the violence. Unfortunately, not enough ppl are listening to the Gedolim.
Well said.
Amen. Speaking as someone who is not FFB, instances like this make things really hard for baalei teshuva who have secular families that don't understand that the frum world is not monolithic ("why would you want to associate with that sort of people?" "They're barbarians, I don't know why you'd want to be one of them" "You think those people are following G-d's commandments better than we are?"). And I am sure that there are people who are considering becoming more observant who have second thoughts when stuff like this breaks out in the Orthodox world.
"WHAT I DON'T BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND IS HOW THE CHILLUL HASHEM OF CHAREIDIM INJURING POLICEMEN IS ANY BETTER THAN THE CHILLUL HASHEM THAT THE PARADE WILL BE."
I think it's ok to express your opinion, even if that opinion is prohibited by the Torah. But I do agree with you on this point. Protesting is fine, and I have no problem with that-- there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in. But using viloence is a monster chilul hashem.
Rav Landau shlit"a has also condemned the violence. In fact, the decree Rav Elyashiv signed his name to stated, "all demonstrations shall be non-violent".
Is this a group of kano'im or just a bunch of misguided m'chal'lei Hashem b'rabbim (ר"ל
?
Great post.
I hear ya! I agree with your train of thought on this one!
The Chofetz Chaim wrote that if he had the resources he would create an army to fight the 'yevsektzias' the forerunner of zionism. Now that the Chareidim have the resources let them get the perverts out of Eretz Yisroel!
Agree 100% on most thing. Actually there are Rabbonim that hold that everything should be done politically to get it stopped but no physical hafgonos etc should be held. The parade isn't passing the frum communities at all. What the hafgonos are doing is a chilul Hashem and a fresh/new "dirty" chinuch to all children and bachurim which is far worse (in chinuch terms).
great post, but it also shows you do not understand chareidim generally and yerushalmi chareidim specifically. Chareidim (yerushalmi ones all the more so) believe that nothing ever acheived in Israel for the religious lifestyle was ever acheived without violent protest.
Whether it is true or not I do not know, but I have been told many times by many yerushalmim that they learned a long time ago the only way they ever will get something is by fighting, literally, for it. No street, they say, was eer closed on shabbos without violent protest.
While it looks horrible in the media at the time, they say in the long run it is worth it.
great post, but it also shows you do not understand chareidim generally
I take issue with this. As a card carrying Chareidi and a Lakewood resident for close to three decades, I think I know a little something about Chareidim.
sorry but Chareidim in the US are nothing like the chareidim in Israel. Not even similar. I should have included that adjective "Israeli" when I said Chareidim, like I said "Yerushalmi"
Well written post, except perhaps for the last line:
WHAT I DON'T BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND IS WHY THE LEADERSHIP DOES NOT FORCEFULLY CONDEMN THE ACTIVITIES OF THOSE WHO ARE HURTING THE CHAREIDI CAUSE.
Here are the images of two posters quoting R' Elyashiv as sharply discouraging the participation of yeshiva bochurim in the hafganos:
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/topi...&
whichpage=#R_0
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/topi...&
whichpage=#R_1
BULL so who started these hafgonos in the first place. What I say is nothing is accomplished by force. The same Kanouim that criticise the Zionim for going with force "hisgarus beimus" are themselves being "hisgarus beimus". Almost every chiloni has a picture of the Charedim as "Shabbos stone throwers". Why should they ever want to be a "shabbos stone thrower"? (I don't even know who is being a bigger mechalul Shabbos?) THIS IS NOT OUR WAY........
Has anyone noticed what if anything will convinces the police to go to bagat"z to stop the parade?
They don't have the manpower to maintain order. Why?
The police will be busy stopping Arab terrorists. Why?
The Arabs want to kill Jews. Why?
Because we killed 20 Arabs.
I fully understand:
Hashem works in mysterious ways.
The Rebbe
NCO,
A few commenters have made that same point. My feeling is that if the leaders of the Eidah Hacharadis (who unlike R. Elyashiv, have not as far as I know, condemned anything) really view the actions of the rioters as a major Chillul Hashem wouldn't they be out in streets making sure it doesn't continue? There is much more that seemingly could be done to stop the rioting. It looks more like they are willing to turn a blind eye towards the riots because they hope that it will acheive some greater good. I may be wrong on this, and truthfully I would be thrilled to be wrong.
Very sad...
This is the main reason..I left Israel...all this stuff literally made me sick to my stomach..
ENOUGH!! The Police are all vermin they should get alot more then a tomato in their face!!!
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