shuggy's blog
On abortion ..."Guardianista narrative" -- I don't think there is a 'Guardianista narrative' on the subject.
On guns -- "I have nightmares about what Glasgow would be like were these readily available in the way they are in the US." -- Glasgow would be more civilised not less.
On fox hunting: "opposition to fox-hunting had many arguments in its favour but those who opposed it were, in my view, often motivated by hatred of toffs." -- Yes -- I am -- could not give a fuck about fox -- spoil the fun of posh fuckers -- hating posh fuckers these days is politically incorrect -- another reason to do it then. Use the enemy's discourse against themselves. And that.
On this bit of your post: "Went to Texas once. Met a few of the sort of people who are not so secretly despised by high ranking Democrats, along with their fans in the British media - who tend to make rather less of a secret about it". I make no secret of despising cretins, redneck scum and filthy racists of various types -- no matter where they happen to accidentally reside. I too have stayed in Yankland -- on extended visits and not just a fucking holiday -- and let me tell you -- the majority of rednecks are just that -- thick as fuck and more repellant than the 'thick as fuck' appellation signals.
On this bit: "who demand that everyone become replicas of themselves." -- nope -- I don't do that (not that you were having a go at me but fuck it anyway -- it's a blog post so any fuckingthing goes) ... I just want political enemies defeated, stamped upon and made into mush and only of interest to historians of non-ideas. I could not give a flying fuck what my enemy thinks about any fucking thing whatsoever. I want him humiliated, dealt a deathblow and made insignificant -- this is where liberals like yourself Shuggy are completely fucking retarded and that. You just don't get what politics is.
Which brings me onto Hundal's quote -- shame as it is -- he is totally correct (apart from the shite about culture fucking wars -- wtf is that shit -- okay so he is totally wrong -- wtf is new with Hundal being wrong like)?.
On the "idea of persuasion" -- 'lections aren't won by persuading any fucker at all. It is the real experience of real individuals that determine the result of 'lections. Not wankers pontificating like some Platonic clever clever shitheed with the 'knowledge' that has only to fly out of their writing desk like a fucking pigeon from its coup and deliver a message to the plebs' gobs and that.
I suspect that you, Mr Shuggy, is a one of them Hegelian types and that.
A liberal idealist and petit bourgeois semi-intellectual. but hey -- aren't we all!
Just saying like. Nee offence and that.
Its a sad day when I have to agree with most of what Will says (apart from me being wrong, obviously).
Reality again collides with stereotype. Came across people who were church-going, fans of guns - but condemned racism and, to my surprise, were strongly in favour of what the Americans call 'socialised medicine'. ...
Not sure what your point is here - that stereotypes are bad? Who's disagreeing what that? I stayed in Pennsylvania once for a bit and met some really nice people even though it was hicksville.
This doesn't mean I hate them, but I don't want any of their politics and I'll actively oppose that.
How likely are you to be successful when your idea of persuasion lies solely in the notion that while your opponents have the monopoly on prejudice and stupidity, you have it when it comes to rationality and intelligence?
so tell me, how would you react to someone who wanted to teach creationism at school? And I don't mean Palin specifically, but are you telling me you wouldn't draw a line at any issue? You wouldn't think the person arguing for a theocracy is being a tad bit idiotic?
I think hearts and minds can be won. There are a lot of intelligent Americans who still haven't made up their mind either way.
False premise. "Culture War" is a term conservatives invented to denigrate and mystify the left-wing activism and legislation that has, amongst other things, made it possible for Sarah Palin to have a career, and made it possible for her daughter to choose whether or not to keep her baby. The right has tried to turn that legislation into a grand conspiracy to subvert society, a "culture war". But it is well past time for the American left to stand up and defend those achievements, defend the liberty they have created, the equality they have promoted, the progress they have made, and for it to push for greater liberty, greater equality and more progress. To that extent, Sunny is absolutely right.
so tell me, how would you react to someone who wanted to teach creationism at school?
With great hostility. I certainly don't think that things like this shouldn't be challenged; it was your idea that 'culture war' could become, should become, a central focus for the 'left'. Perhaps I didn't express myself very well but I was trying to get across the idea that it is something of a myth that elections in America are won or lost on these sort of issues.
Which brings me to lengthy rant from our Will: lost count of the number of points you missed here, o man who is sporting the new Grizzly Adams look, but it's too goddam early to point out your numerous mistakes. Suffice for now - I really don't get this 'Hegelian' thing you keep accusing me of. Methinks you're just using it because you know Hegel's like the goddam Bible - everyone claims to have the correct interpretation yet hardly anyone's read the damn thing all the way through. Or something. Just saying like.
Will - I'll throw out "Hegelian" as an insult as readily as the next person, but wtf?
Gregg - The American left adopted the "culture wars" mantle with a squealing glee that they didn't quite manage to disguise as grim determination. Naomi Klein in "No Logo" nails how this distracted them from what was happening in real life while people weren't arguing about "Piss Christ". Stopped clocks and all that.
Sunny - You are a one-man Operation Clark County, you really are.
A small point to make amid all this bluster, but it amazes me still how freely lefists in the UK use the word 'redkneck' as a term of abuse, when, as far as I can tell, it means 'white working class male'. I think that this is probably 'what is wrong with Kansas'. Not any false consciousness but a dislike of being patronised by people who claim to be of their party while despising them as a class.
Redneck certainly isn't synonymous with "White Working Class Male" any more, if only for the reason that the term encapsulates both of the breeding pair.
They also differ from the rest of the working class in the US (and rest of the world) in that labour isn't that important to them - there is plenty of redneck pride but none of it seems to have much to do with their work. Maybe I'm thinking too fondly of Clyde Shipyard workers or Welsh miners; but there is tradition of being proud of the work that they do, something lacking in their redneck working class equivalents.
I'd also argue that there are rednecks beyond the working class, but I'd have a hard time convincing anyone who hasn't spent time in small towns in the US.
As for the idea of a culture war, I don't think Democrats could be blamed for taking up arms in that fight since Republicans have somehow convinced the public that the GOP is the party that brings economic prosperity (spoiler: it doesn't) and the only thing between small town america and the Russians/French/Muslims/Whoever-else-they-manage-
to-annoy. The Dems are running out of issues on which they are not constantly on the back foot.
Perhaps I didn't express myself very well but I was trying to get across the idea that it is something of a myth that elections in America are won or lost on these sort of issues.
I think in the current election they'll be quite important. Remember there was a time when instead of focusing on the economy or international policy, the Republican focus was on how Obama wasn't patriotic enough, that his wife was an angry woman who hated America, that he was a snob, that he was too intellectual, that he was a black separatist. These are all cultural issues.
In the past Bill Clinton neutralised them because because he could speak their language. But that is my point, unless Dems learn that language, they'll keep losing.
it was your idea that 'culture war' could become, should become, a central focus for the 'left'
That wasn't my point at all. Where did I say it should become the central focus? I said they shouldn't be shy of fighting the culture wars. Not that they should make it the main theme of a campaign.
"There are a lot of intelligent Americans who still haven't made up their mind either way."
What about the dumb ones?
The assumption that it's just the intelligent people you're trying to reach - that your message is only for those of requisite IQ - and that if only they'll just listen then they'll be pretty much forced to agree with you, smacks of fairly offensive intellectual snobbery.
People can (easy, Will) disagree with you on politics without being stupid, ignorant, evil or otherwise contemptible. There's a difference between thinking a creationist is an idiot, and saying so loud and often enough that all of her friends and parishioners feel honour-bound to oppose you.
Obama's popularity/apparent success is partly predicated on the fact that he doesn't come across as despising his opponents. When he slipped up with the "guns/religion/bitter" remark, it hurt him. (And his opponents knew it would, and hammered the point.) He was also damn quick to rein in supporters who attacked Palin's family life. He understands he'll win by attacking ideas but respecting people - it's a pity his supporters do not.
"People can (easy, Will) disagree with you on politics without being stupid, ignorant, evil or otherwise contemptible. "
And if the Democrats could only larn this lesson, half their electoral woes would be behind them. It is a persistent fault of the left that they struggle to recognise that their political opponents are as intelligent as they are and even, sometimes, as virtuous (which is what Shuggy is on about). The Democrats just could not take Reagan seriously as their intellectual equal despite the fact that he never lost an election in his life and demonstrated over and again a very sophisticated grasp of policy at every level. And they paid for it. They made the same mistake with Bush. It looks like they may be lured into making the same mistake again, although Obama is alive to the problem.
Where did I say it should become the central focus?
I thought this was implicit in your idea that fighting elections on economic issues was 'a losing strategy'. No? Fair enough - I certainly agree that these issues should be taken on but I still disagree with the spirit of your post though. A Democrat wants to talk about healthcare and a Republican wants to shift the agenda onto some god stuff or something. Taking the attitude that 'we have to take them head-on' is allowing them to set the agenda, I think. You also haven't really mentioned the point I was trying to make, which is that issues that are seen as 'liberal' or 'conservative' tend to get bundled together so going for a 'culture wars' type platform just ends up alienating people who might otherwise support even a moderately social democratic platform. I was going to argue in the post - but didn't want to bore people - that on the Democrats part, the shift into this sort of 'culture issues' (dunno when to trace this from - the whole 'Rainbow coalition' thing perhaps?) represents a retreat from anything we could describe as being even faintly about class politics.
"it amazes me still how freely lefists in the UK use the word 'redkneck' as a term of abuse"
Three words: fuck off. PC language police cunt. Because it's offensive to racists you would ban its use? -- wot a twat. "Freedom of speech, freedom of speech!" Vouchers for vouchers and shit like that. Stupid pissant bloggertarian fuckwits -- hang them all and hang them high.
Rednecks are the white folks the yanks don't want you to see, so you can keep hating on blacks and Hispanics....redneck inbred trailer trash scum permeates americayankland like stinking fucking fungus.
The "dangerous class", [lumpenproletariat] the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue. You know, mercenaries, Klansmen, union-busting thugs - parasites on the working class.
"Three words: fuck off. PC language police cunt. Because it's offensive to racists you would ban its use?"
I can't decide whether this is more elegant or incisive.
Just to help you relax, though, can I point out that I didn't suggest that the word should be banned? I am just surprised that so many on the left use a word which seems to me to be, transparantly, a term of class hatred aimed at the working class. I wouldn't interfere with your right to use it, though. In fact, I think that it is a good thing that people give themselves away with words like this. Kingsley Amis called them 'wanker detectors'.
"which seems to me to be, transparantly (sic), a term of class hatred aimed at the working class."
Are you the thickest fucker on the planet and the interwebnets?
Of course it's class hatred you dopey cunt. They ain't working class --- that's why the term redneck is so fucking appropriate (or the more scientific term - lumpen scum).
PS. Why does Meredith always say, or tell people he disagrees with, that they are 'overexcited' or should 'relax'? Maybe people who disagree with you have reasons and can't stand for your sort of bullshit and are willing to say so in precise and harsh terms? Anyway -- enough of leaving comments at this place for thick cunts and liberal pc loonies and the fash cunt deariefuckingme (who i would gladly have executed on the spot and shoved into a ditch). And that.
"Why does Meredith always say, or tell people he disagrees with, that they are 'overexcited' or should 'relax'?"
I don't, but you are, and I thought it would help if you did.
I leave you to your weird and visceral hatreds of the working class or 'lumpen scum' as you prefer to call them.
Meredith is a loon.
This is self evident.
I would slit his throat at the drop of anyone's top hat (and not even my own).
Right children, that's enough of that. Leave the room for a minute and this is how you behave? I have to say I'm very disappointed.
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