Tell me about your mother....
Cross-border acts of terror?
I must have an old map.
I couldn't find Palestine.
I swear it's there somewhere, though...
could you help me find it?
As to your last statement I can not answer in agreement or disagreement, which is where I personally feel the burden of responsibility. I have left myself ignorant and uninformed because these matters are painful for me to deal with. I have deluded myself into believing that because I am only one person, and can not do much, that it would be better for me to deal with what I have on my plate and let the rest of the world worry about taking care of these things. There are too many like me, and together we could be doing something.
But to those who are informed... what good does sitting around debating about it do? We have voices... let's use them. We have resources. Let's use them. We have people who would be willing to volunteer. Let's use them. U.N. be damned. Their criticism be damned. If the military can't act to aid and petition... citizens can... every where. Change has to start small. It has to start with us.
and HEY!
talking about company...
where's my pizza and beer?
...still waitin' over he-ahr...
Ask the Egyptians and Jordanians- they 'created' Arab Palestine.
Square1, depending on which way the wind is blowing, you will be admonished.
The left has an agenda, as does the right. Doing the right thing is the last thing that concerns the ideologues.
I've faced worse than admonishment. If they really want to stop people like me, then they better come up with something pretty creative, because there isn't much that I haven't already faced and survived... and I would do it again if I had to in order to get changes made.
"... the reality that real democracy's [sic] are built on the blood of patriots."
Despite the fact that SC&A confuses the possessive with the plural, and the fact that the quote is actually "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" (Thomas Jefferson), I think the quote also highlights a fundamental inaccuracy.
The whole idea of democracy is to prevent the blood of patriots from being spilled. True democracies are built upon bloodless revolutions by the citizenry -- that is, the democracy (in the wide sense of the word, since it's actually a constitutional republic) that is the US began not after the revolution with the British, but in a conclave of guys (yes, they were all male) getting together without bloodshed to say to the King, "We don't want to live under your rule anymore. We want the people to rule." That was the birth of democracy here, not the "shot heard 'round the world."
Iraq never had that moment. They've had "the blood of patriots and tyrants" galore, but never the lightbulb-over-the-head-of-the-population moment where everyone says, "Yes, democracy!" It was, despite your denials as to its occurrence, handed to them on a platter by a mandate from a large military force from across the seas. Our democratic revolution came with no timeline attached; theirs came with a deadline for holding elections and a deadline for drafting a constitution. Our democratic revolution was fought by our resident citizens (with a little help from the French); theirs was fought by non-resident, non-citizens (with little or no help from the citizens).
"Now, obviously, we can't send troops in every time there are less than perfect regimes... Still, we can pick and choose the times and places that are most likely to return good results -- meaning that people, given the opportunity, will choose freedom over tyranny."
First of all, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD would "choose freedom over tyranny." No one chooses to live in a tyranny. Second, if that's the case, then why did we choose Iraq? If they're not having the best reaction to the democracy transplant we performed on them, then what was it that motivated us to be there in the first place, instead of, say, Rwanda, Congo, Darfur, Algeria, etc.?
I know all of this is a bit off-topic. I'll understand if you want to ignore it.
Ignore you, boomr? Not a shot in hell. We will address the matter later.
Sadly, we are not lawyers in New Orleans, nibblin' on crawfish, having bowl after bowl of gumbo and fielding call from Madame Lucinda. We are not as fortunate as you, having lovely naked women bearing silver trays loaded with cash in a never ending parade.
WE need to work a bit.
Boomr,
I've hear many theories addressing your question about, "Why Iraq?" I've heard everything from peronal vendettas against Saddam, to the oil industry... I don't think we'll know ALL of the reasons the Iraq was picked over these other countries. My personal theory (and no I have absolutely no information with which to back this, it is simple conjecture) is because it is close to Afghanistan and Iraq was already a villain in the American people's eyes. We still have troops in Afghanistan... but you never hear about it on the news anymore. I believe the war in Iraq was partially initiated to divert the American public away from matters being handled in Afghanistan. To what end I do not know. Since Iraq is a handy neighbor, and already villainized to the American public, it made a convenient theater in the war against terrorism. Does that mean that I think that the action we've taken there wasn't necessary? I can't speak to that. I'm sure that for as many Iraqi's spit on the US flag and rant against US troops, there are probably many women who are thankful at not having to worry about being hauled off to a rape room, many father's who may sleep a little easier knowing that their children are a little bit safer.
And three are many who will oppose it because all they know how to respond to is tyranny. The US has been villainized to them as much as Saddam was to us. Sometimes in people's eyes it boils down to... better the devil you know. Given time perhaps they will learn that's not always the case.
so... if there is no palestine...
what cross-border attacks are these?
you keep shifting around and it's confusing me... maybe i should put my bong down...
i could swear you're just not saying what you mean... and wish you'd get to the point...
see?
Nice try. Facts on the ground, Miguel. But we are with you, re Palestine. They turned down the UN partition in 48.
"Nice try. Facts on the ground, Miguel. But we are with you, re Palestine. They turned down the UN partition in 48."
Can you really blame them after they were promised the whole thing in order to fight on the side of allies during WWI. Then Britain and France turned around and said, "eh... never mind, but here is a nice concession prize."
While the terrorism and anti-semitism is repugnant, you can't forget that they were pretty screwed over to begin with. It doesn't justify their current terrorism of innocents, but you can't say that they have NO legitimate claim to the area.
Square1: Reasons for the Iraq war (both good and bad):
1. Saddam was a genuinely bad guy who oppressed his own peoples and overtly threatened other nations (principally the US and Israel).
2. It was a fairly secular society with a high level of literacy, and was seen as the best Middle East potential for democracy.
3. It has loads and loads of oil.
4. It's centrally located in the Islamic world, acting as a buffer of sorts to the pan-national Islamic fundamentalist theocratic movement in the region. No one wants to see Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, the Emirates, and the rest of the Islamic countries banding together en bloc.
5. Oil.
6. We should have deposed Saddam in the first Gulf War, when he actually did invade another country in violation of international law and human rights. That the UN stopped us then was inexcusable.
7. The attempt on President Bush the First's life.
8. Oil.
9. Petroleum products.
10. Fossil fuels.
11. Dead dinosaurs to burn inside metal machines.
12. It's a great location for permanent US military bases, again, because it's central to the region. Much better than Diego Garcia.
13. I don't think it was to divert the eyes of the world from Afghanistan, because I think the plan to invade Iraq was substantially devised prior to 9/11, shortly after (or even before) President Bush the Second took office. Plus, the war in Iraq (or, more to the point, the post-war) has been run so shabbily that I think the administration would want us to look at Afghanistan.
14. Black gold, Texas tea.
15. Before agreeing to a permanent Palestine state, our government needed to ensure at least one moderate (read: pro-US) regime in the area, preferably a large one with a decent economy.
OK, I'm tired of listing now. Oh, by the way, none of these reasons was given to us as a reason for going to war....
Thanks Boomr. That'll be an interesting list to go research. BTW did you mention oil? ;oP
Sorry, slipped my mind.
16. Oil.
well, Allah knows it wasn't for the food!
Ooooooo, I am sorry, but the correct answer was "what is oil?" You forgot to answer in the form of a question.
Hahaha! You guys are much too funny!
Yeah, dingo's funny -- but looks aren't everything.
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