Yes Mike, it is bittersweet as you so aptly put it. But remember this - in any war sometimes things seem to stretch on forever until a victory is realized.
There is NO doubt in my mind that those propositions against same sex marriages along with any other anti gay proposals will die in the dust of history.
We've taken the first step of many by having Barack win by such a large landslide. The rest will come along, hopefully in the very near future.
One very encouraging sign was the way he made sure he mentioned gays along with other groups being united in his acceptance speech last night.
Shame on those members of minority communities who decided yesterday in California, Arizona and Florida to transition from an oppressed class to oppressors.
What an outrage if all those married couple in California have their rights revoked. That is abysmal. I was planning to go to California for grad school, but how can my fiancee and I leave Massachusetts now?
I'll throw my coin in the "Obama for Change" wishing fountain and see if it comes true. I wonder how long it will be until Obama comes out and says "I'm really for marriage, I just couldn't say that until after I was elected..." I hope its soon.
I'm completely emotionally torn. I want to cheer and to cry and I have so far done both today. I realized yesterday that even my best friend did not even know about the existence of Prop 8, let alone the fact that California had made marriage legal. Her response was, "Didn't they make that legal in the 70s?" Now, she's on board and she apologized first thing this morning that we most likely lost Prop 8.
I am completely heartbroken for the LGBT community in those states where such hateful legislation has passed. It's hard to be happy about Obama when I heard the heartbreaking news.
DISTRAUGHT!! My husband and I were married in San Diego in September. NOW WHAT?? I'm literally in tears sitting at my desk. We hosted an election party at our house last night (in FL.,which Obama turned blue) and were ecstatic having elected Obama President. Now, this morning homophobia has reared its ugly head in FL., AZ., AK., and it appears CA. as well. It's truely a bittersweet day.
Can the governor veto this??
It is highly unlikely marriages prior to the unconstitutional amendment will be revoked.
Lets not forget this amendment is in fact unconstitutional or there would be no need to amend state constitutions in the first place. The proponents of prop 8 and similar amendments know this. "Activist judges" is a lame buzz word.
This has to be decided by the US Supreme Court. What type of judges will Obama appoint? Here is some insight. Obama stated:
I've stated my opposition to this. I think [Prop 8 is] unnecessary. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about. Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them.
Hillary Clinton for US Supreme Court!
After spending the entire day in the field as a No On 8 campaign volunteer, I got home to find a robocall on my answering machine, obviously targeted to registered democrats: it played the clip of Barack Obama saying that he believed marriage was between a man and a woman, then urged voters to vote yes.
I wish I could pop a bottle of champagne and celebrate Obama's victory, I'm really so thrilled that sanity has finally prevailed in this country and we have a wonderful, smart president. But the likely success of prop 8 and this heinous robocall is just too much to take. I guess I'm shellshocked.
Unfortunately; with such high voter turnout how could someone argue that the majority of the population doesn't support the amendment?
If the activist judges did try to overturn it the right would be hysterical!
I've always felt a lot of support as a gay person. I have had little noticable discrimination flung at me.
Today is a shock and I'm not equipped to deal with this type of blatant rejection. Lame...but true.
All true Mike but we must be careful -- we must focus on a few priorities: end the war, getting the economy moving, health care, global warming. Lets not get derailed like Clinton did. Remember as the great Welsh socialist Nye Bevan said, "Priorities are the language of socialist" -- our time will be short so lets get what we can done. If we do it right, we can control the agenda for a generation just like the Republicans did.
I understand it means little, and hasn't been an effective instrument of change since the onslaught of the NAFTA and the "Global Economy" but it's all I have left in my personal arsenal.
No more California wines.
No more California vacations.
No more Callifornia produce.
I care not how happy their cows claim to be, no more California dairy.
I'm old enough to remember Anita and the Florida Sunshine advertizing campaign going sour because of her opposition to gay rights. I understand times have changed, but certain things about me have not. Among them my inability to contribute to the financial success of those who would oppress me.
Let the outtings begin.
Okay, I'm stupid, but would someone explain to me how we can put civil rights up for a vote in the first place? Does anyone think that the people of VA would have voted to allow interracial marriage in 1967? No, it took the Supreme Court in Loving v Virginia to strike down those anti-miscegenation laws, and it will take the Supreme Court to strike down this as well.
BTW: The right-wing certainly didn't complain about 'activist judges' in 2000 when the Supreme Court stopped the vote count in Florida, did they?
While I agree that in general rights should not be up to the ballot, CA has a ridiculously easy to amend Constitution(simple majority of one vote? That's absurd). We should be working immediately to repeal Prop 8 in the next election and put it up every damn year until it's gone.
Young people overwhelmingly opposed Prop 8. The older people are coming around and/or dying off. We WILL win this. But the fact is, we're a small percent of the population and just not really on a lot of people's radar so we have to work harder.
The frustration and hurt I had been feeling since the early results for Proposition 2 in FL were nothing compared to the rage I am feeling today after finding out about CA. I’ve lived all over the east coast; now live in Fort Lauderdale and am a Hispanic male. Well said by Alfredo: "Shame on those members of minority communities who decided yesterday in California, Arizona and Florida to transition from an oppressed class to oppressors." Shame on them indeed.
A few years ago I left a high-paying career to become a teacher…I am caring, dedicated and nurturing for children who are not mine, but for whom I feel great responsibility. I work my heart and emotions off to educate and support these kids. The same children these people accuse us of corrupting and endangering.
Allow me this one please: Fuck you!
My heart goes to the couples in CA who are losing their legal unions. As you, Michelangelo said...where were those ads showing gay people like us? Where were the ads in Florida?!
I cannot help but to fantasize of a Stonewall-like movement. The contrast of having a celebration for our first African-American president along the brutal denial of our civil rights truly brings to light how we are valued in this country. It’s abominable, appalling and enraging! We truly need to do something radical, again.
What now Michelangelo? At 45 years old, I am more than ever questioning the commitment of our leaders. I emailed you months ago (you did not respond) about why don’t we support some small movement (perhaps green party) who would openly stand for us. Why be hypocritical and ignore a party (if there is one) who would not be ambiguous about its stand on LGBT rights?
It might not be feasible, but then why not call-off Obama and Biden on the ludicrous contradiction of being against Prop 8 AND not supporting our right to marry. WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR RELIGIOUS APPROVAL OR VALIDATION! For all I care, keep the damn marriage word, I rather you call my union "non-godly" as long as I have identical rights. I only want my civil rights as an equal, outstanding, contributing citizen of this country. SEPARATE STATE AND CHURCH! Shame on them indeed! Shame on Obama for being wishy-washy on gay rights.
I was so looking forward to today, to Obama winning this election, to sending a message to our country and to the world. And we are here! But my core is broken. So, forgive me if I show my dismantlement as you blow your trumpets and take pride on the Democratic Party’s victory.
Today I will wear the heart of a crushed 2nd class citizen. Today I will love my rage.
One of my gay students couldn’t have said it better: They (administration) say they will support me, but somehow always find a way to make me feel devalued. Shame on them indeed!
Other victories that M.S. didn't mention were the democratic takeover of NY State Senate, which paves the way for gay marriage in NY, and Connecticuts "no" vote on holding a constitutional convention to consider a gay marriage amendment in that state. So, Connecticut is about to begin same sex marriages, and now, after the election, perhaps New Jersey will also change from civil unions to outright marriage. The fight continues. Our success is inevitable, as the younger generations grow in influence. Do not despair. Marry where you can and lead a proud life. Remember, the best revenge is a good life.
On a day I thought I would wake up so happy and surprised at the progessive and tolerant movement of our nation, I instead wake up disappointed. Don get me wrong Im exstatic that Obama has won, but so very sad that these measures have passed. I cant believe in a state such as California, so well known for its progressive views that the public would stand up and take away equal rights from our community. Where is our voice? Where are our Friends? We are back at the bottom and we are going to have to fight so much harder to get our rights, but where is everyone? Everyone we've helped, everyone we've put our personal issues aside for, to promote equal and fair rights?
Thank you for all your heart, effort and work as displayed on your BLOG.
I stop in daily to hear from you.
Keep doing what you do! - Thanks
Yesturday gave me reason to believe in the capacity of american people to govern themselves. The coffee shop near the voting site gave away free coffee, because there were thousands of people there. And such an air of excitment.
There is no question that Obamas' strategy of commanding a grass roots attack beforehand was the greatest asset toward his winning. I was called by at least his organization, out front and others to cmoe call and go door to door. At one point I know they said that there was an 80% turn out. I'm sure that there were thousands of people who had never voted.
In my humble opinion, the leadership of the gay community have been hyjacked by turkeys like Sullivan into believing that gay activism is unnecessary anymore, who believe that we are just accepted as part of the straight hegemony if we act like them.
How many gay people were out on the streets and going door to door like Obamas' people promoting support: I wasn't in California but I doubt that anyone left home. With a similar sentiment of Obama: It is down right disgusting that Prop 8 succeeded. Hopefully that will encourage a new activism, instead of the lazy assimilationism people expire in now: it's the spirit of selfishness which has corrupted us: even if people claim not to be Log cabinetes, they act that wa to often. We need a new activism; this could be a lesson or a reason for more closetedness.
It's stunning to see the "YES on 8" faces literally gleeful that they have instantly annulled thousands of marriages in an instant. Look at their faces. They have just suffered a huge loss in McCain's defeat, yet are filled with celebration and exuberance that they have achieved a fatal blow to gay relationships. It is one of the most sickening, vicious, evil things I have ever seen: http://www.latimes.com/news/
loca...0,1545381.story
The California results are unlikely to annull marriages already contracted. Such amendments are usually prospective, not retroactive as the religious righteous would proclaim. Basically, those gays who got in and got theirs when the going was good, will get to keep their goodies. The rest of you won't get anywhere for a long time to come.
Gavin Newsom now has an albatross around his neck, and, after the losses in Florida and Arizona, there's not a chance that Democrats are going to do anything more than utter Hillary and Obama-like niceties...and utter them as little as possible. You might be more tolerated at a Democratic convention than a Republican one, but courting Democrats at this point isn't going to produce any more results than the unrequited love of the Log Closet types. And the mainstream churches are not going to be all that helpful. Their loyalties, after all, lie with other "Christians." They'll take your money, of course, but they'll keep than ten-foot pole around to push you out when you get just too, too embarassing.
This mess is the result of a dozen years of the kind of "Gay Establishment" nonsense that began with HRC and its clones in the late nineties. Now the public has landed that bunch on their butts so hard that their silicone implants have probably popped. Too bad, they can afford their proctologists and plastic surgeons, but you can't.
You gave them your cash, your time, your work, your support and had to watch while these socially self-promoting bunch of white-privileged clowns squandered them completely. When people bragged of their "matching platinum rings" and talked with Black Churches only "...with great trepidation..." they lost working class and minority support. It's useless asking this bunch of sycophants to the rich, famous, and influential to change. You have to get rid off them and start a different style of activism. Or isn't that blatantly obvious?
Hate to sound like a broken record but Swarzenegger has veto power over this. Why would he? Well, he's not really that much of a social conservative and he is in his last term as governor. His term ends January 3, 2011.
DP, there are Log Cabinettes on Swarzenegger's staff who will assure him that they don't need the "special right" of marriage. Read some of the comments at the Republican site GayPatriot. Many Log Cabinettes are as happy as the Mormons that a death blow has been struck to the "liberal gay elite". We are in for a very tough time in the glbt community.
You are totally on the money William about the nature of the gay community and the leaderships resposability in letting this happen.
Gay people need to do their homework. Activism is not built on accepting the terms of the opposition, we need our own voice.
It takes a lot more that the insistence that some magic will occur because "we have the right".
Something good: that buzzard queen, Michele Bachman was beat out : his name is El Tinkleberry or something Scandinavian like that ! At least even the constituency couldn't deal with any more Humiliation.
Al Franken too!
I agree that the "No on 8" groups totally blew it. I donated again and again but was disappointed to see their weak commercials. The only good one was the one with the Mormon missionaries coming into the lesbian household to strip them of rights. And that commercial didn't come out until the night before the damn election!
Remember...We ARE on the right side of history. This will get sorted out and as long as we have faith in each other and the power of right, things will work out. Remember if Brown vs Board of Education had been put up for a vote, it would have lost too...
About 3 million absentee and provisional ballots have yet to be counted.
All hope is not lost!!
To married couples out there: remember, you ARE married--no one can take that away from you. The state can pass whatever stupid laws it wants regarding rights & privileges. I think people are coming around, gradually, and there is still resistance out there, but it is growing weaker by the day and we are growing stronger. I never imagined when I was "college age"--20 years or so ago that we would have even come this far. At least we have Conn & Mass. We may have to drag the rest of the country kicking & screaming, but they really have no choice.
I am having so much difficulty celebrating Obama's win.
It is so dishearting the losses we suffered. I know we will pick ourselves up as a communitity, but the initial feeling of all of this still stings quite a bit.
There are moments I feel like I could just cry.
I cannot believe MS says it is a time of celebration. I am so glad to read however that so many of you feel the same way I do. I can only assume that since he lives in NY where things are looking so good he has no way of knowing how the rest of us feel. I have lost hope in him and I feel he is as much to blame as the ones that piloted the campaigns in Florida and California. He told me on the election post to take a chill pill. Fuck that chill pill. I live in Florida and I'm devastated. No chill pill is gonna erase what I feel. I cannot and will not celebrate an Obama victory. Look at the exit polls and you will see that because Obama won, we lost. African Americans overwhelling voted against us. African Americans that most likely wouldn't have voted that way if Obama hadn't been up for election and specifically if Obama himself hadn't kept saying that "one man, one woman" line over and over. I have no faith in our next President and now I have no faith in MS either. I'm cancelling my Sirius since he's the main reason I have one and I am looking elsewhere for a leader that can understand the reasons why I feel this way. I cannot wonder that if Hillary had been on the ticket we would have done so much better. Obama just ran a better campaign, I will not believe he will be a better president then her. He has already shown some of his true colors... anyone remember FISA? So you all that feel great about this go celebrate. Me, I will licks my wounds and start a new life elsewhere as far away from MS as I can get. Chill pill... my ass.
The rights of farm animals were protected and the right of HUMANS who are gay were rejected. What does this say about California voters?
randy... if hillary were the nominee, she would have also voted for FISA. come on. i voted for her in the primaries but it seems pretty obvious she would have voted for it.
Randy -- this is the third time you are are "canceling" your supposed Sirius subscription. Go ahead already.
What you said in the other threat was that you didn't consider black people "equal" to you. I will not put up with that sick and yes, racist, ideology.
And by the way, if you beloved Hillary -- who I backed as much as Obama and would supported as much if she won, as I'd not endorsed either -- has said the same thing about the Prop 8 and gay marriage as Obama has. And the same thing would have happened in CA if she were the nominee. So please stop scapegoating Obama and African-Americans because of your resentment of Hillary.
By the way all, I'll be having Pam Spaulding on to talk about just this issue -- but oops, Randy, you canceled your subscription, so I guess you can't listen in.
Randy,
You are not alone in your feelings.
I know I should be estatic today but I feel like I have been kicked in the stomach. It is not a good day for GLBT Americans. I live in Florida as well and cannot get out of this state fast enough and back to New Jersey where people are more tolerant.
One reason I was not so quick to get behind Obama is "the Donny McClurken factor". AA's are historically homophobic. Before MS calls me a bigot, I am not one. All you to do is listen to the messages from the black preachers and listen to the lyrics of rap music to see that this is a fact.
I truly believe that the increased AA turnout was not good for the FL and CA ballot measures. I think it is up to Obama and the new Democratic Leadership to heal this divide and promote a nation of tolerance and inclusion. We must demand it. The leadership of the Human Rights Campaign has failed us and I believe it is time for a new Gay movement. We should give the new leadership in Washington a march like they have never seen before.
Yes Mike... I will not be listening and yes I give up on you and the whole politcal policies. And yes I, for the first time in my life am going to become a bigot. You are not the one that had a African American Obama supporter come to your door asking you to vote for Obama. I asked her about Amendment 2 and she said there was no way she was gonna vote to give gays rights. After a long discussion she said we should be put in jail. And if Hillary had won I don't think there would have been such a huge African American turnout or as many registering to vote for the first time and then sticking it to the gays. So yes... I no longer consider African Americans equal. Of all people they ought to understand what we are going through but don't and for all of you that's okay. Fuck that. And Mike I did cancel my 2nd Sirius radio and today I am cancelling my entire account. I hope you have a happy life but you have no idea what I'm going through. I used to get solace from you... now I just get attitude... and I wish now I had not become so political which I can thank you for. OutQ needs to take you off the air and give that time slot to someone who can sympathize with all gay people.... NOT YOU.
I live in california and the religious right did not overturn Abortion notification of teens. They passed animal rights but we were not able to seal the rights of other Californians or Americans.
I really feel that if we were to call it civil unions we would not have a problem passing it after talking to many people while assisting the vote no on 8 campaign. I just feel that the brainwashing of the religious right took alot of images out of context to make us out as the bad seeds. At least they did not take clips of parades and such this time, they just capitalized on peoples fears of taking away tax rights of churches, teaching kids in elementary school, etc.
I really feel that the margins were close in California, please do not stop eating our produce, drinking our wine, and keep making our cows happy. It is not the whole state that feels that way, we came much closer than we did on Prop 22 that started this whole thing.
I too feel betrayed by many friends and family members that probably voted yes however, it is up to us to continue to show that we are the better people and teach them more tolerance and acceptance to help us finally get this passed. The problem is that this battle will go on as long as we have the right wing Christians, Catholics and Mormons teaching that we are all abominations. We need to continue our fight and never give up, otherwise we might as well all get back in the closets.
I am proud that we came this close and look forward to continue fighting for equal rights.
Do you think for 1 second that had Obama lost, that prop 8 and the other gay props would have gone favorably for gay people?
You cut your nose to spite your face, Randy.
We have no right to criticize the African-American community. They have long struggled to win the right to full citizenship and their deep faith informs them to reject our lifestyle.
Donnie McClurkin said it best when he stated that Black families will not let us push sodomy or a new definition of marriage on wholesome families of color. Racist gays need to put their feelings in check and honor the spiritual faith and historic achievements of the African-American community.
Shut up Jamal.
Please don't get complacent in thinking that those of us that got maried and "have all our goodies" will get to keep them... "they" were clever... now it is in the constitution defining marriage as only between one man and one woman. My marriage doesn't meet the constitutional definition of marriage now. If we, those who got married, just sit back and think that what we've got is ours, we will watch it go away. If you think the 'yes on 8' people will stop now, you are wrong. I am certain they will do everything they can to strip it all away... and they just may be able to do it...
the amendment states . only marriages between one man and one woman would be recognized as valid in the state. not marriages that occur after today, only marriages. The 11,000 couples who were married in California will not be married. Those high and mighties concerned with saving the family hace just eradicated 11,000 families.
Thank you Michelangelo. Your blog has made me feel better. I was crying in happiness that Obama won, and then crying in sadness for our loss here in CA. You have helped me see the big picture. I am ready to get in with the grassroots and continue the fight for gay marriage in California and for gay rights in general. I have found my calling in life. If anything, this prop passing should pull us all together to fight even harder for our rights. I am ready.
I just wanted to let you know Michelangelo, that you have really been influential in my way of thinking. You are such an intelligent and articulate man. Thank you for all you do for our community.
There were 18,000 marriages performed in that short time. Does that mean that all the counties would have to refund our monies for marriage certificates since they might not be valid? That would be a huge hit to the county cofers.
According to ACLU.org:
at
http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/
relatio...rs20081105.html
"California Will Continue to Honor Marriages of Same-Sex Couples Who Married Before the Possible Passage of
Prop. 8 "
So what date do they consider the marriages invalid? Is it the day of the election? What I mean is, is it possible that we can still get married now until the constitution is changed? Has this went through yet?
African-Americans are immensely proud of their civil rights achievements. They are justifiably suspicious when whites who only speak to African-American churches do so "...with great trepidation." When those who haven't done much talking with the Black believers then claim that the gay movement is miraculously the "same" when those gays all appear to be well-off white Lesbians suffering from an excess of white privilege, then who can blame Blacks for sneering? The Gay Establishment has tried to claim their achievement without doing all the footwork to explain why, much less show what white Gays have ever done for Blacks.
For ever so long, the "Gay Establishment" has acted like any other Anglo or Anglo-assimilated upper middle-class.
Look, I had it out with a Black minister and took the case on its own civil rights terms without reference to the Black struggle. He might have been lying (Christians generally do), but he agree it was more Christian and more civil to leave it to their individual consciences. I'm sure they voted "Yes," because it takes a lot of footwork to make our case on its own terms--without anything that looks like a Gay cross-over ripoff of the Black experience.
William, I can blame african-americans for sneering. Why does anyone need to show anyone "white gays have ever done for blacks" as you say? Why are my rights up for a public vote in the first place? Why do Americans just, even guilt-ridden liberals like you seem to be, just blindly acquiesce to the notion that one person's religious beliefs trump another person's claim to equality under the law?
MS and other irrational optimists, I am so tired of people saying it's going to take time but we'll eventually win, we need to do the footwork, blah, blah, blah... IT'S 2008!!!! Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands and Canada have had gay marriage for years now. Denmark has had civil unions for over a decade. France has the PACS, which incidentally are more popular than marriage now, even among straight people. Do you believe any of those country had more gay organizations, or better-organized gay activists or fought longer or harder for their equality? The answer is NO. The difference is people in those countries think and do not have their brains poisoned continuously by the bizillions of televangelists and "revuns" continuosly trumpeting hate as faith that we have here.
I have always been a registered Democrat since I started voting and I have always been opposed to racism, and I have African-American friends and co-workers that I am out to. But no more. I am switching ASAP to the Green Party. And I am FURIOUS with the African-American community and I will not apologize for it. I am FURIOUS with Obama. Early polls saw this coming and the L.A. Times wrote an article a month ago about the negative impact on the No on 8 campaign that a high black turnout (due to Obama being on the ticket) would have. If there was one single person who could have done something to prevent this, it was Barack Obama. But he wouldn't lift a finger because it could have cost him some votes in North Carolina or Virginia or Indiana. F*** him! I will not celebrate this presidency. And there is no getting around the fact that if it hadn't been for the African-American vote, Prop 8 would have been defeated. I now for the first time in my life feel gays and lesbians would be totally justified in being racist. It's not wrong... It's just self-preservation.
In the meantime, I will be looking into getting a job in Europe. I am 48 years old, and I don't have patience anymore for America to get its act together.
Reading through this blog I am very disappointed in the dialogue that we are having today. I was so excited last night when Barack Obama won. I cried during his acceptance speech and I cried a few hours later when I learned about Prop 8 and the other votes around the country where our rights are being stripped away. I became very angry this morning to learn that 70% of African American's and 50% of Latinos supported this proposition to write discrimination into the constitution.
But more than anyone else I am furious at Barack Obama. He had the power to change the dynamics of this race but he couldn't give us 15 seconds in a commercial to say NO to discrimination. He was tripping all over himself to declare marriage is between a man and a woman, to declare that we are not equal and that has cost us this battle in California.
I am mad at the Democratic party who continuously asks us to be nice and silent and not ask for rights "so they can get elected" and then they walk away form us.
Well Barack Obama you have 4 years and if you sweep us under the rug to improve your re-election then in 2012 the gay community needs to take the election away from the democrats by boycotting the vote. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. The democrats dont care about us and the African Americans don't care about us. WE ARE ON OUR OWN!
I want to thank everyone who has posted today, you have made me feel so much better about myself. I too was mad at the African American votes and got blasted by Michael. He has a political way of thinking but is terrible at human relations. Maybe it's because he lives in a state that is close to giving him marriage rights, maybe it's because he lives in a big city, I don't know. I do know he is out of touch and I thought I was the exception. I cancelled my Sirius today and this will be my last post on here and I will not be reading any more on here. I wasn't this involved in politics before. I voted but barely noticed the rest of the year. When I got Sirius 2 years ago I found MS and I started to get more active because of him. I wish I hadn't. I want to go back to not giving a damn until it's time to vote again. I too am furious with other minorities and will never look at them the same. I will never again vote for Barack Obama until he earns my vote. NEVER AGAIN...will I vote for a candidate that even right before the election kept with the "one man, one woman" line. MS I wish you well but I hope one day OutQ will wake up and find someone with more compassion. You are as much to blame for Prop 8 as anyone else. You did all you could for Prop 8 and nothing much for FL or AZ. We put all our eggs in one basket... and if we had spread it around we might have had a victory somewhere. Florida was close and I can't help but wonder if we had had some of those dollars we might have had a chance. I mean it took 60% here... and will now take 60% to change it unless the US Supreme Court and Oblama does something to change that. Anyway, thanks to all of you that have shared my frustration on here... it gives me hope. I just need to find somewhere else to find it other than here.
I am not really sure why people are blaming Michaelangelo for Prop 8's defeat. I listen to him everyday and he did more than most to promote the campaign.
I can understand the anger at no support for Florida's proposition, I live in rural America (okay it's Vermont and we don't have votes by the majority to take rights away from the minority) and I feel that Sirius Out Q very often forgets that they have listeners outside New York City, but their positives outweigh the negatives.
Sirius Out Q is the only reason I am still with Sirius - they are a terrible company when it comes to customer service and their left wing programming leaves a lot to be desired. Thank-God for Out Q.
maybe it's time to focus on the federal constitution to include sexual orientation regarding classes of americans protected from discrimination.
repeated state-by-state battles are long, expensive, exhaustive. how long will it take for the 'mainstream' to support full equality?
boycott marriott
what would happen if we contributed an equal amount of the money, effort, and time we spend on alcohol, bars, clothes, etc. (did anyone see the recent issue of the advocate?) to equality?
Rick,
You stole my thunder! I was gonna say that the gay rights, marriage, et. al. have to framed under a civil rights argument! Discrimination, simply defined, is the act of treating a person and/or persons differently from the rest of the populace. This is discrimination pure and simple and must be fought on the same level as was done for blacks in this country.
and..
Perhaps MORE importantly, the tax exemption for the Mormon church MUST be taken away. This organization donated MORE than 70 million dollars to get prop 8 passed. No separation of church and state there so no tax exemption - pure and simple! In fact, I'd love to see the government take away tax exemption for ALL churches in this country along with tax exemption for donations to same by tax payers. Then we'd see how spiritual those hypocritical assholes really are! We would see donations dry up and die in many states. Then, hopefully, the churches would dry up and die which would allow people to begin helping their fellow citizens in the true spirit of giving.
Sorry, when I said, "What have white gays ever done for blacks?" I was essentially repeating a conversation that dealt more with "What have whites ever done for blacks?" as an historical argument. It just got overly and incompletely specified at the same time. I was trying to get at the relationship between white gays and black gays which is just as much characterized by every variety of racism, discrimination, and unreflective privileges as the rest of American society.
And, no, I'm not a guilt-stricken liberal. Liberal means an argument based on liberty--something absent from the usual compulsory political correctness, and guilt-stricken would mean I got intimidated into feeling sorry for something I didn't do by somebody I didn't like anyway--just like church.
William, I am very sorry that my words the other day were so angry. What I was trying to convey was this: I believe that there are many Democrats, and I have been one of them, who have espoused for their whole lives that civil rights is equivalent to addressing the injustices done to African-Americans because of the history of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, miscegenation laws, etc, etc, in the USA. Partly, this is because that is the way civil rights are constantly covered in our culture, both in the classroom and in the media. This is so pervasive that many African-Americans actually mean "black rights" when they say "civil rights" (I have worked with hundreds of African-Americans and know this to be a fact), and mean "black" when they say "minority". Many whites have bought into this equivalency. Civil rights include equal rights for African-Americans, but are not limited to them. This would seem to be obvious on its face if one uses words by their meaning in the dictionary, but I think it needs to be stated. By using the term "guilt-ridden liberal", I was venting my frustration with all the excuses and justifications that I have been hearing for the black vote in California, mostly in liberal, gay and/or Democratic-leaning blogs (which I need to stop reading). Many people seem to be convinced that it is unacceptable to criticize the African-American community for anything that they do since to do so would be racist, or that the African-American community cannot be held accountable for their actions since whenever they do something patently wrong en masse, as they did on Tuesday, it MUST be do to something that gays or whites (or Jews or Italians or Mexicans....) did to them, or didn't do for them, and that they are the most aggrieved party and therefore whatever they do it is not their fault. I now see that this is the party line that the Democrats have tirelessly espoused since maintaining their fractious coalition depends on it. Already there are massive demonstrations surrounding Mormon HQ and talk of a boycott of Utah. Fine. The LDS church certainly was very instrumental in promoting and financing Prop 8 and deserves the ire of the gay community and their friends to some extent. But at the end of the day, it wasn't about money. The No on 8 campaign actually recruited more donations than Yes on 8. It was about votes. And at the end of the day, it wasn't about "minorities" as all the liberal blogs are spouting. The Hispanic community was divided almost half-and-half, with a majority of Hispanic females voting no on 8, although apparently somewhat more hispanic males than females voted, and the Asian-American community voted mostly No on 8. This is very hopeful, and shows that those communities are really coming around year by year - as are a majority of whites in the coastal counties - and can be reached by outreach. What is not being reported is that this is an exact repeat of how the gay marriage ban was
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