While I clearly disagree with your politics, you seem well-read on Biblical matters, so I read this entry. However, it seems that you are doing something common among conservative Christian friends of mine - equating God's law with those made by man. I think this is a bit dishonest for your readers - believers and non-believers alike. (For purposes of disclosure, I am a Catholic, and a liberal). Criminalizing churchmembers for giving food or temporary shelter to recently-arrived immigrants, irrespective of citizenship status, is, I believe, contrary to Biblical teachings. The Bible is clear in its message of compassion to "foreigners" (and others for that matter), it preaches social justice. What about:
"Doom to you who legislate evil, who make laws that make victims--laws that make misery for the poor, that rob my destitute people of dignity, exploiting defenseless widows, taking advantage of homeless children." Isaiah 10:1-2 ?
By the way, as a matter of an aside, "assimilation" does not require Latinos to be forced to stop speaking their language. Either way, you should not be so alarmed, as according to the stats, most young bilingual Latinos actually prefer speaking English to Spanish. Actually, the preferred model for many of today's immigrant groups is "acculturation" - where folks learn English, work, and live within the system, but still retain their language and customs of the old country. Have we forced NYC Russian Jews, Mid-Atlantic Italian-Americans, and Scandinavian-Minnesotas to entirely give up their culture/language? Of course not. Why? Because they are "white", and folks perhaps like you consider it "the norm" -- i.e. you are more comfortable with it. These Euro-American groups have and will continue to contribute to the multethnic fabric that makes the US.
Anyway, just my two cents. God bless, and I hope you are able to eventually internalize the fact that God is not a left- or right-wing zealot. I hope you also soon learn that immigrants themselves are not the problem - it's the complete corporate sell-out of the politicians in Washington that is the real problem, as they refuse to get tough on the employers (which is the what pulls immigrants here in the first place).
>>>equating God's law with those made by man
Actually that is what "liberal Catholic" religious humanists do. What is Popery but a doctrine that elevates a mere man's words as speaking for GOD, "ex cathedra". I hardly think you are in a position to accuse anyone else of what you yourselves already believe.
What about the apostles? Well, if you start tearing down the uniquely Spirit inspired authority of the apostles as recorded in scripture, you will prove my point from the post -- that dismissing the authority and regard for the bible and its accuracy are essentially the acts of unbelievers, so don't go there.
NOWHERE in your comments did I hear you address the SCRIPTURES I provided, IN CONTEXT. Of course, you cannot because what I wrote is ACCURATE. The only problem is that you just don't beleive it. God forbid your mind should be confused by the facts!
>>>Criminalizing churchmembers for giving food or temporary shelter to recently-arrived immigrants, irrespective of citizenship status, is, I believe, contrary to Biblical teachings
Well.. please enlighten me.. where did I advocate that? I didn't. But I do advocate that after their bellies are full and have had a good night's sleep, that they should be immediately deported back to their countries as lawbreakers.
>>> The Bible is clear in its message of compassion to "foreigners" (and others for that matter), it preaches social justice.
Can you not read? The entire focus of the blogpost was to place that compassion IN ITS PROPER BIBLICAL CONTEXT, which is what you pseudo-communist preachers of "social justice" always jerk out of shape. That's what makes you "liberal Catholics" so unbelievabley UNCHRISTIAN... biblical ignorance led about by false teachers. In contrast, the bible says that those who are "led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God", and the Spirit of God never contradicts Himself with the word He inspired.
>>>>Isaiah 10:1-2
Yes yes, God hates tyranny. But you see, our contention is that your INTERPRETATION of HOW "social justice" is achieved is what makes YOUR IDEOLOGY tyranny, and ends up fulfilling what God hates. When you preachers of social justice enslave us under Big Brother, substituting the Almighty State as your god instead of God Himself, you are the ones who end up OPPRESSING everyone.
Just look at every socialist liberal godless state and you'll see a) poverty, misery and oppression and b) the eradication of true biblical relgion and the Word of God. Cuba, Russia, Red China. That's what your "social justice" end up being.. INJUSTICE. That's what "social justice" IS.
>>>>"assimilation" does not require Latinos to be forced to stop speaking their language
Neither I nor the rest of us who oppose illegal immigration advocate forcing ANYONE to stop speaking their language. That's just another red herring and false accusation of the lawless "social justice" rabble.
>>> Because they are "white", and folks perhaps like you consider it "the norm
I'm so glad you enligtened "folks like me lest I be "alarmed"... considering that I am a native Cuban born in Havana, now a naturalized American who now speaks SPANISH as a second language and speaks flawless fluent English. I hardly need your lecture on assimilation or language, as I am both assimilated AND a legal immigrant.
>>>"acculturation"
Uh uh. The first step toward acculturation would be getting IN LINE for being approved to legally immigrate into this culture! Instead, you defend illegals who rudely jump ahead of people all over the world patiently waiting their turn, and discourage them from respecting the will of the American people and our laws that decide WHO we want to accept or reject.
>>>" internalize the fact that God is not a left- or right-wing zealot"
Actually you missed the whole point of my post which was to expose that the left wing zealots are the ones who don't get it. They are the ones who use the Bible to manipulate and poison the political culture in order to gain their own advantage, even if they have to hack it out shape to accomplish it. Practice what you preach,why don't you?
I am a Christian who both reads the Bible in its grammtical-historical-literary CONTEXT and believes we should apply what it means, not twist to make ourselves feel good.
I have yet to meet a single liberal Catholic who doesn't get all self-righteous about their "good deeds", as if you think that they will purchase you a first class ticket to heaven. Well they won't, and if you knew the scriptures you would know THAT TOO. PRIDE is the sin that will keep you blind.
>>>"complete corporate sell-out of the politicians in Washington that is the real problem, as they refuse to get tough on the employers (which is the what pulls immigrants here in the first place"
Oh really? Well your left wing zealotry is showing again. Actuallly it was the liberal, Democrat WELFARE STATE political macine that drew most of these illegal "get something for nothing" parasites over here "in the first place", long before the johnny come lately corporate employers got in on the action. Immigrants like my family came over BEFORE the welfare state with no illusions of anything but working hard to EARN the American dream, legally and honestly without handouts. Then along came the Clinton Democrats who turned amnesties for illegals schemes into a vote-buying political whorehouse, and the Republicans learned how to turn those tricks too.
But hey "God bless you" too... to open your eyes!!!
Ignorant and unstable people distort the Scriptures to their own destruction.
Not related to your post, but saw in your profile that you might wanna come to doctrinesofgrace.net. Looking forward to seeing you there!
You are making a very common logic error.
You are mixing two very separate things together
1) How the alien is required to behave if they are Christian
2) How you are supposed to behave toward the alien if you are Christian
A failure of the alien to follow (1) does not absolve you of your obligation to follow (2).
People with a deep faith in the Bible, need explanations when the bible contradicts what they have very strong feelings are the right thing. They find these explanations. Someone else, with an equally deep faith, and a different strong feeling as to what is right, finds a different explanation.
But neither is committing Blasphemy.
Eileen,
Now you are the one committing a logical error. Failure to believe what is true does not make it any less true. Likewise, ignorance of the law does not make a lawbreaker innocent. Blasphemy is blasphemy regardless of unbelief and ignorance.
But those of whom I was speaking are all the more guilty because they say they speak for Christ.
Lizzie,
Your response does not address what I was saying.
I didn't attempt to justify the acts of the alien.
I only indicated that their actions related to statement (1) did not absolve the Christian of their obligations related to statement (2).
What truth do I not believe and what makes it the truth? I it only some conclusion you drew.
Eileen,
Perhaps your point is so sublime that it makes no sense to me.
As I understand it, the Christian is expected to obey the law as stated in Romans 13, unless it violates God's law.
That means that a Christian illegal alien is breaking it by trespassing. Christians who defend the trespass are accomplices to their crime. Both are in violation of Romans 13.
Since there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that contradicts the rights of nations to define the parameters of citizenship and residency, there is no biblical basis for such lawbreaking.
I more than explained that in the post you read.
As far as I'm concerned, illegal aliens are criminals unless they are permitted to stay under the grant of asylum or a legal visa. The sanctuary movement is a network of sedition attempting to undermine the federal immigration laws.
If that is where your sympathies lie, then don't expect that I would ever side with your point of view. If you have some other point, please make it clearly.
I do have a point, and I thought I had made it clear.
It is not about siding with me on where my sympathies lie. It is about the logic fallacy I see in the way you argue your point.
Here is my point (again).
You are attempting to justify YOUR behavior (how you as a Christian behave) by using scripture that applies to THEIR behavior (the illegal alien).
I am not arguing that the alien is justified in their behavior (I will save that for another argument).
I am only indicating that such is not an excuse for a Christian, who believes that Leviticus is the absolute law of God, to not follow Leviticus 19:33-34.
i.e.
1) biblical law related to how person X should behave
2) biblical law related to how person Y should behave toward person X.
If person X does not follow (1), this does not absolve person Y of their obligation to follow (2).
That is my only point. That is all.
I am looking for an argument to refute Leviticus 19:33-34, or show that it does not apply to illegal aliens, which does not do so by using the behavior of the Alien as an excuse.
That is all.
Someone just responded to my blog with something I have to think about, on the same issue.
Eileen,
Yes, Christians are subject to live by the word we believe, regardless of the behavior of others. I made that point in my post in several places, and I justified it scripturally already. What more are you seeking?
In fact the whole point of my post WAS to refute a NARROW application of Leviticus 19:33-34, one that liberal theologians and the sanctuary movement misuse to justify civil disobedience and overthrowing our immigration laws. THEY speak as if Americans, including Christians (other than liberal leftists) are wrong in doing so. Please review my post because it ALREADY makes the case you say you want.
However, if your suggestion of "logical error" is simply a clever way of laying the groundwork to allege hypocrisy, please go ahead and make your case.
Please cite specifically the "unchristian" behavior you allege I am "trying to justify"? Quote my post, please.
This isn't about me though is it? What allegation of wrong doing are you suggesting Christians" are guilty of, by using Leviticus 19:33-34 as your proof text?
As I understand it, Lev19 means equal justice under the law, a point I already addressed in Items 2 and 3 of my post, and in one of my comments (re: Romans 13). What is your "logical" counter argument?
Leviticus 19:33=34
"When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
I don't think you sucessfully argued your point and that was the only point I was trying to make.
You did successfully argue that the behavior of the illegal immigrant is not biblical (at least in many cases).
You make a reasonable arguement for why YOU do not believe the behavior of illegal immigrants (and some of those fighting for them) qualifies as a case where it is o.k. to not follow the law due to it being an immoral law.
I don't see this as absolute anyway.
However, I do not feel you successfully argued that God did not mean for us to treat these immigrants as we do Citizens.
I can not use this to set you up for an accusation of hypocrisy without exposing my own hypocrisy.
But I do not think that those who believe that they should treat illegal aliens as citizens; OR do believe that breaking immigration law is justified due to the lack of morality of such laws; are guilty of BLASPHEMY.
Eileen,
How do you live with such glaring contradictions in your thought process?
First you claim I was illogical, and then that I failed to successfully argue my points. Then you did a 180 and actually listed my points, acknowledging that I WAS successful and made a "reasonable argument".Well which is it?
Second, you never stated your case on ANY of the issues, defined what my "logical error" ever was, nor did you substantiate your accusations ...
The conclusion here is that you rejected my arguments, not because of MY failure to defend my case, but because of YOUR OWN bias against absolutes.
Doesn't the issue reduce down to this: your allegation of my "logical error" was not really MY failure to defend my points, but on your failure to agree with them?
Brilliant.
For someone who came here to challenge my logic, set me up for hypocrisy, accuse me of justifying "wrongs", and then admit that doing so would expose your OWN hypocrisy, well... that is just absolutely brazen.
I fail to see how you have demonstrated the ability to either reason "logically" or to pass judgment on what is or is not aboslute" when you can't even back up your own assertions. One thing seems certain.. you are absolutely confused.
Let me help you out here Eileen.
What you seem to base your view of reality upon is not the ability to reason "logically", but on your FEELINGS. EMOTIONS.
Feelings are no substitute for FACT, LOGIC, REASON, RELIGION, OR REALITY. They serve only to make you "feel good" about what you IMAGINE to be true only because its what you WANT, but not necessarily what is real or even true.
That is your hypocrisy Eileen, that folks like you are gods in your own minds. The only "absolute" that you "feel" absolutely is contempt for anyeone who comes along and challenges the imaginary universe you have built for yourselves with a different set of absolutes.
Isn't it true that your whole premise in this discussion has been built upon the "feeling" that there IS NO REAL GOD who HAS revealed Himself to us, enabled us to understand His thought process, and that He expects us to live by them? You simply WANT to treat the illegal alien with the same legal priviliges as the legal resident/citizen even though there is no basis for doing so. By the same token I NEVER argued for withholding basic human rights, charity or kindness from them. YOU IMPUTED THAT TO ME because you "wanted to" accuse me of it. In fact, I said I would give them food, shelter and clothing and THEN deport them back to their homes. Where is the "immorality" , Eileen?
Furthermore, isn't your premise also built on the implied assumption that God's word applies only to Christians because we believe in Him, but does not apply to those who don't believe?
That's the fallacy. Reality doesn't change just because one doesn't believe in it. Everyone is accountable to God just because He exists and He is the Creator. It is not contingent on whether or not you believe in Him. The only question is WHEN and HOW He will excercise His judgment on His creatures.
Let me give you an example. If you didn't know a thing about gravity, and jumped off a ten story building, you might have a nice "flight", but would your "unbelief" prevent that hard stop at the sidewalk? NO.
Before you come back, it would be helpful for you to do some research on the definition of blasphemy. Just remember one thing though... this too is a forgiveable sin.
No,
You actually have my stance incorrect.
However, it is not worth my effort to argue with you at this point, since either you are completely failing to see what I was saying, and/or I am completely failing to see what you are saying (possibly both).
To set the record straight here, not everyone who disagrees with the conclusions you draw is a non-believer in Christ, or someone trying to accuse you of being a hypocrite.
I have decided to throw Leviticus out of my own belief system. I came to this conclusion based on another discussion I was having in parallel to this one. I have not seen anything I think does a valid job of indicating the Leviticus scripture which tells me to treat aliens (illegal or otherwise) as citizens doesn't really mean just that.
However, due to the numerous other things in Leviticus, which I do not believe God intends for me to follow, I can ignore the whole Leviticus book. (This is the area where I was questioning my own hypocrisy).
You seemed more biblically knowledgeable than anyone else I had spoken too on this particular subject.
My lack of being convinced that your arguments make your point does not mean I don't consider you knowledgeable.
Eileen,
Holy smoke! You've "decided to throw Leviticus out of your belief system"? Well why don't you throw out the other books that I quoted from too?
While you're at it, why not give me some time to compile a comprehensive list of ALL the other scriptures that apply to this subject as well? (I could have used a lot more to validate my conclusions but it would have been too long.) You could just have an old fashioned book burning party.
If you can do THAT, why not throw out John's Gospel? And hey, why not just throw out Jesus too?
Do you realize that Leviticus testifies of the work that Jesus would do in the future, as much as the new testament reveals to us what He has done in the past?
Why do you think you can just throw out the parts of the Bible you don't like, and then expect me or any Chritsian to still embrace you as a believer? Spare me that old canard, "not everyone who disagrees with the conclusions you draw is a non-believer in Christ" .... LOL
The real truth is that its not ME (i.e. the "conclusions I draw") that you disagree with -- is it Eileen?? Or else you'd throw my BLOG out, not the whole book of Leviticus!
Once again, you reveal your bias and your hypocrisy. No believer just hacks a piece of the bible and throws it out because they don't like the conclusions. No believer would BLASPHEME God by saying "I do not believe God intends for me to follow; I can ignore the whole Leviticus book". Those aren't just dead letters on a page... they are God's inspired thoughts, communicated for precisely that purpose... so that we WOULD OBEY HIM.
All of us, me included, don't "like" to obey God's word Eileen. There's parts of it that go against my own fleshly desires too, because we are ALL sinners. In fact, we are ALL UNABLE to obey God with perfection, and, make no mistake about this --- His standard IS perfection. That's why He sent Jesus, the only perfect human, and perfect because He is also God incarnate. The only thing that can save us from ourselves is the fact that Jesus substituted for us when He took the WRATH of God upon Himself, instead of letting His father pour it out on us.
If you can believe that, then everything else follows suit, Eileen, including Leviticus. Not only what applies to us as individuals, but also as nations. Jesus told his disciples in Matthew chapter 28 "go therefore, and teach the NATIONS to observe all that I have commanded you". While you're throwing out Leviticus, throw that out too, okay? Because that's all I'm trying to establish in my blogpost.
But this is the comment really takes the cake. "Due to the numerous other things in Leviticus, which I do not believe God intends for me to follow, I can ignore the whole Leviticus book." You're not just struggling with illegal immigration, are you?
Let me take a stab at that one....
The big kahuna in Leviticus that offends most modern UNBELIEVERS is Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination "
Maybe you're a lesbian? I'm not accusing, its a sincere question.
Eileen, whatever that "hypocrisy" you find in yourself that Leviticus addresses , you'd still have to deal with it wherever ELSE it appears, not just in Leviticus! The Bible is consistent from beginning to end.
For example: In the NEW TESTAMENT, Romans Chapter 1:26-29, it says:
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality...."
Ouch Eileen. That's just one example, there are multitudes of others for every kind of sin you might dealing with.
So. Stop being a hypocrite. Embrace your depravity already, Eileen, and move forward. Either throw out the entire Bible and Jesus too, and quit accusing me of hypocrisy, or embrace what it teaches. To grasp why Jesus died on the cross for sin, you have to embrace your sinfulness, and that is defined by the Law of God. When you face it honestly, what you will find is that God isn't waiting to destroy you, but to shed His grace and mercy, and to heal you. But He will not deny His standards -- truth, justice and holiness.
.... and may God grant you repentance unto life, forgiveness, and peace, and wisdom and understanding to finally understand what Jesus did and who he is. HE is the one that the book of Leviticus points to.
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