In response to this, I've often wondered how much of this economic "crises" has been purposefully manufactured.... because I keep hearing recently from Obama that it's "going to get worse before it gets better" (like how does he know?) and he keeps pushing this huge stimulus package that I honestly don't feel we need. Why are they so determined to push America deeper into debt??? I sometimes wonder about the housing/ subprime mortgage crises and if that wasn't some hidden agenda because the brains behind that were seriously lacking and as far as I can tell, no committee has been formed to investigate what happened. Instead, the govt.'s answer is to provide us with another stimulus package. More money! More debt!
I fear that if this continues we'll eventually lose our freedoms to find ourselves under government control-- they'll have their hand in everything. I hope my thoughts are just running away with me and that I am wrong.
Still, I know that God is bigger than the govt. and the deceitful money lenders/ investors. He is my only comfort during this unreal and turbulent time.
Here's something to think about:
Strategy of Manufactured Crisis
Also, the root of the recent subprime mortgage meltdown began with Democrat/liberal social engineering policy known as the "Community Reinvestment Act". I've documented a great deal of it on my blog during Sept-Oct 08. Check my archives, and watch the videos. Until the perpetrators of that fraud are held accountable, I consider this government a pack of nothing but criminals.
That was an interesting read. I have felt something is/was happening behind the scenes because the current economic crises has an air of being "man-made" and in combination with the rise of our "savior" Obama, and all the power plays of the pols in Washington and the shady bankers/investors of Wall Street..... I get the impression of "Something Wicked This Way Comes."
Coincidentally, have you heard of Tal Brooke? I recently finished "When The World Will Be As One" (1989 publication date) and at the end of it he chronicles the "shadow government" (mostly comprised of the world's International Bankers) who are pulling strings towards a goal of shrinking America's economy in order to usher us into socialism/communism that would hasten our entry into a global world economy. In light of all that is happening now and has been in the last year especially (an election year), it definitely gives you reason to pause to think. And pray.
I'm familiar with Tal Brooke. I have mixed feelings about him and his Spiritual Counterfeits Project. Hasn't borne much fruit, has it? But then I wouldn't give you a widow's mite for Pat Robertson's book "New World Order" either.
There was a fluff up many years ago because both of them plagiarized the work of Constance Cumbey from her book "Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow". Constance's book was the one the Lord placed in my path to bring me out of the New Age Movement.
Aside from Constance, there are PRECIOUS FEW people out there working against the New Age Movement, especially from the Christian community. There is one other lady, Jewish, by the name of Hannah Newman. She wrote a treatise called "The Rainbow Swastika" warning Jews of the New Age. I have a link to it on the sidebar. Its really good.
As for the rest, they seem to travel in strange circles, even with some of the very New Agers they purport to be opposed to. Some of the "anti-one-worlders" are more leftist than Obama and actively perpetrate the worst kind of hatred and bigotry against both Christians and Jews. Names to avoid: Eustace Mullins, Texe Marrs, Gary Kah. Its no wonder that in the last thirty years, the NAM has gone viral, and mainstreamed with virtually no opposition, even within the churches. So don't believe everything you read.
I attribute that to two things:
1) Apathy among the sheep, obsessed with the pursuit of self-help therapeutic programs but completely disarmed from engaging in spiritual warfare, and
2) Wolves within the camp following "seducing spirits" and teaching "doctrines of devils".
"Nuff said.
Interesting that you should mention "Something Wicked This Way Comes". I posted this entry by that name on October 7, 2008 just four weeks before the stock market meltdowns between October 24-28th. And then, of course, a week later Obama was elected.
Something Wicked This Way Came for sure! But its not over yet... its only beginning.
Just a quick question as I am reading these articles and blogs and watching the video with Constance Cumby....it seems that most do not believe in the rapture of the Church before the introduction of the Anti-Christ, One-World government and the 7 year tribulation.
But I believe that the true Church and the Holy Spirit (the Convictor and "Restrainer") must be removed from the earth before the reign of evil and terror is ushered in. The two are intimately interlocked together and the Church began when the Holy Spirit arrived on the earth (Acts 2). I believe that the Holy Spirit still active in the world as well as the prayers of the saints help keep such EVIL from occurring even now. We are standing in the gap until it is God's appointed time, and once removed, the Anti-Christ will then be revealed.
What are your thoughts on this?
You have raised a fascinating subject! You're probably not going to like my answer though.
First, I do not know what Constance Cumby believes about eschatological matters, so I will not speak for her. But I do have many thoughts on this subject, so I will speak for myself. Also, scroll down the sidebar of my blog and you will find a couple of references to "amillenialism" there.
I personally do not subscribe to the scheme you have described known as "dispensationalist premillenialism". Its an eschatological system introduced in the 1800's by J.N. Darby, propagated through the Scofield bible, and mainstreamed among evangelicals as if it were gospel truth. Sadly, for the last two centuries, people have majored on the margin notes to the detriment of the scriptural text. They've strained God's words through the templates of man's opinions.
Most of today's evangelicals are so indoctrinated into premillenialism as if it were the ONLY view, that they aren't even aware there IS any other view! Some people's understanding of Christianity never gets outside of "Left Behind". For that reason, I'm certain you are well versed in the tenants of dispensational premillenialism, but not with the other views. I urge you to review the works of some of its critics. I recommend the works of Gary DeMar, R.C. Sproul, Kim Riddlebarger, and Samuel Waldron.
For eighteen centuries prior to Darby, the church has primarily been "amillenial", meaning that the millennium is not a literal 1000 calendar years, but simply a symbolic representation of "a long time". (Revelation is written in apocalyptic style, largely symbolic). While there has been a strain of historical premillienialism since the early centuries, known as "chiliasm", it shares very little with today's brand of dispensational premillenialism. Even then, historical premillenialism was considered an aberrant minority view. Interestingly, its making a comeback in scholarly circles nowadays, causing some dispensationalists to modify their views, especially the weirder ones. Among the Protestant reformers, some adopted what has become known as postmillennialism, a view which shares many points with amillenialism, but with a view of the 1000 years as a "golden age" WITHIN the realized spiritual kingdom reign of Christ, prior to His return. Only the premills see the kingdom delayed until AFTER his return.
Now, to answer your question more specifically, Its a long answer, but please bear with me.
Scripture tells us that when Christ returns, the beast and the kings of the earth will be gathered to do battle against the Lord (Rev. 19:19) Only then will the FINAL BATTLE commence and the King of Kings will WIN. No doubt, the final battle will be a global antichrist system warring against the Lord. On that point, we agree.
However, I believe that man's quest for empire building, including both godless and "religious" empires, has been an ongoing struggle throughout ALL of history. Is the "one world" globalist antichrist system a prelude to the return of Christ? Yes, certainly The question is: which one?
Do we know which global empire building scheme God will permit to finally succeed? Do we know which one Christ will come and destroy? No. Throughout Christian history, there have been many candidates... in recent history, those included the Pope/Catholicism, Napoleon, and Hitler/Nazis, Stalin/Communism. Maybe it could have been the British, after all, there was a saying once "the sun never sets on the British empire". Look what happened to them! Bounced back to an island. What about us? WE are the world's so-called "lone superpower". Who's next? Could it be Islam? Could it be the Red Chinese? Could it be the New Age internationalist money brokers, e.g. George Soros? WHO KNOWS -- and there is the crux of jumping to the conclusion that any system of eschatology will be a crystal ball in our struggle against terror and the empire building of wicked men.
The church has historically believed that the last two thousand years have been an ongoing struggle between the "city of God" and the "city of man" (Augustine, 5 AD). Put another way, the "city of God" is the spiritual kingdom of Christ here on earth: the Body of Christ. Therefore, the kingdom of God is not something that will come in the future, it has already come in the past, and that's why the two are at war. The millennial kingdom is a present reality. Two thousand years in our past, Messiah, Jesus Christ, came preaching "the kingdom of God is near", and followed it up by saying to those listening to Him then, "THIS generation will by no means pass away till all things take place". And He succeeded.
I believe the "kingdom of Christ" was inaugurated at His ascension two thousand years ago. Hebrews 1:3 and 8:1 tell us that when He ascended into heaven He "SAT DOWN at the RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH" The body of Christ here on earth lives in His kingdom spiritually but the glorified Messiah Jesus rules and reigns the universe from heaven wherever He is ... "preparing a place for us".. He has been ruling and reigning, casting down man's empires for the last two thousand years (soon it will be America's turn). For as long as God ordains time and history to continue, man will empire build and the Messiah will cast them down. UNTIL the Day of the Lord comes. Our job is simply to walk in the power of His Spirit, in His kingdom, obey Him and stand against the wickedness, We are engaged in an ongoing spiritual war, but one where God restrains man's empire building schemes from succeeding globally UNTIL Christ comes in glory to judge and destroy it. His return will not usher in another millennium, but will consummate the final great events of history.
Nor do I believe in a literal 7 year tribulation preceding the second coming, The trouble with putting off "tribulation" for a future 7 year period, is that it denies the fact that the church has always suffered great tribulation since the moment of its birth. This continues today in many parts of the world. In fact, its very first martyr, after the Savior Himself, was Stephen, two thousand years ago. This curious belief in the postponement of "tribulation" has arisen among American evangelicals perhaps because we haven't had to suffer for our faith as the rest of believers in other countries have suffered, The history of the last two thousand years attests to this. Tribulation has always begged the question: who is the true church? Is it not those who willingly suffer for the name and cause of Christ?
So, mankind has always had the propensity to build empires, to persecute God's people and oppose the spread of the gospel. God's will has always been to crush them by the hand of His anointed one, the messiah, and restore all creation to its original purpose: Righteousness. These are the great themes of the bible, from the Tower of Babel, to the subject of Daniel's dreams of beasts (empires), and the promise of its fulfillment in Christ. He is the stone "not made with hands" that cast down the kingdoms of men and established the everlasting kingdom of God when He ascended into heaven.
Nor do I believe in a rebuilt temple from which Jesus will reign in Jerusalem. In 2 Thessalonians 2, the coming of Christ is linked with day of Christ, or that Day, which is the day of the Lord (the day of judgment). There is no mention of any 1000 year interregnum either. Those are all conspicuous by their absence. In fact, when the letter was written, the temple was still standing, and though Jesus Himself predicted it would fall, how could they even imagine it would be rebuilt and He would occupy it unless the letter had addressed it? Yet it is NOT there.
Those are just the imaginations of a few men, who read INTO the scriptures from their own imaginations, and the daily news.
I don't believe in any concept of a "rapture" that is distinct from THE bodily resurrection of the dead. What premills call the "rapture", I believe is the bodily resurrection that takes place at His Second and FINAL Coming which is also known as the DAY of the Lord. And I think it is just that -- a day. Remember, "a thousand years is as A Day" (2 Peter 3:8-13) When Peter wrote that passage he was not speaking of creation (beginnings), he was referring to final judgment (endings), and described in graphic terms what the DAY of the Lord and the destruction of this universe would be like.
So, here how I think it will go down,
The church, i.e. true believers, will suffer ongoing tribulation until the second coming. Upon Christ's arrival, the graves will be opened, the saints will be raised from the dead, and the living changed to imperishable bodies never to die (1 Cor 15). We will meet Him in the air and come with Christ to judge the world for its wickedness. God's wrath will be poured out on the wicked, the kings of the earth the beast the false prophets and all people who are opposed to Him. The graves of the wicked dead will also be opened, and they will be raised to judgment, wrath and everlasting damnation; All of the wicked will be cast into hell forever with the devil and his demons. End of man's quest for "new world orders" .
Then, God will destroy the universe with fire, and out of it He will create a NEW heavens and a new earth, And so we will be forever with the Lord in a glorious new creation where only righteousness dwells, with our King of Righteousness, the Lamb to rule over it and walk with us and among us. This is the beginning of the eternal age and what I believe awaits us at the coming of Christ. And that is why I do not FEAR that DAY. I rejoice in anticipation at the glory that awaits us, and I hope you do too.
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This is why I have no use for the "Left Behind" fairy tales, charts, timelines, monsters and disasters of those who concoct "cunningly devised fables", focusing more on the schemes of Satan than on the glory of God! All these things serve only to inspire FEAR among God's people, not the "hope of glory!".
I find no joy in facing the prospect of yet another millennium of suffering under the schemes of Christ hating power grabbers, or in delaying the judgment of all WICKEDNESS on the earth, I see no glory in seeing Messiah King Jesus, Ruler of the Heavens, the Universe, and all that exists, being kicked back to a lesser, limited throne in the teeny little country of Israel. Then there's the teaching of premills who envision a millennium of the righteous walking around in resurrected glorified bodies, living alongside sinful, fallen human beings sinning and dying in Jesus' face every day, for a thousand years -- I find that a HORRIFYING future indeed! As if He couldn't finish the job of saving people before He comes to reign!
Forgive me for being so blunt, but the prevailing eschatology of most churches today is offensive to me. It is defeatist, it fosters FEAR of being "left behindf", FEAR of sufferring, FEAR of death, instead of HOPE in the promises of Christ and eternal glory. It elevates the temporal life above the eternal one. Worst of all, it denigrates and trivializes the Glory of the Exalted One, Jesus Christ, who is already RULER of the UNIVERSE.
I hope that you will allow these thoughts of mine to cause you to hunger for something BIGGER than what you have been taught -- the true promises of our glorious future awaiting fulfillment at His return.
ok, here's my response! 
I am marking your statements with these
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It says in Genesis, “In the beginning, God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH”; these are two distinct places. He doesn’t combine the two into one universe, and I think in terms of prophecy, and the mystery spoken of by Paul, it is a very important distinction. Prophecy foretells of a coming Messianic Kingdom on Earth where Christ will reign (what the Jews were looking for and still are). The mystery given to and spoken of by Paul is Christ in heaven and our worship with Him there (Eph 2:4-10 and Eph. 3:1-4).
Again, 2 distinctions: Kingdom of Heaven (where Christ has already sat down at the right hand of God) and Kingdom on Earth (where He is yet to be acknowledged as King of Kings and Lord of Lords). The nations and inhabitants of the Earth reject Christ, He does not yet rule on Earth. (Tho as you state, He rules spiritually in the hearts of His believers—His Church)
The Holy Spirit restrains and the Prayers of the Saints (the Church) help to restrain evil on the Earth. The two are intimately linked together and work together to further God’s Kingdom. Before the Man of Sin arrives to rule the earth for a time and set himself up to be worshipped as the false Messiah, the Holy Spirit’s work on earth must be diminished and to do that the Church must be taken out of the way.
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The true church includes the saints who believe in the finality of Christ’s work on the Cross and in repentance of their sins have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. True, up until this time the saints in America have been spared the rod of those who oppose Christianity unlike those in other countries. But our country was founded on Christian principles and freedom under God. He has graciously kept us from such persecution and we have been blessed beyond belief so that we may take the good news of Christ to other nations. America has sent more missionaries than any other country out into the world! Unfortunately America is moving away from her Christian roots and Christians are being persecuted; not so much violently—yet—but by being shut out and removed from the public square and mocked and scoffed at. Then there are the false teachers who have infiltrated the Church; to deceive even the elect, if that were possible. Apparently it is!
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But up to this time, it has been thru the combined work of the Holy Spirit (given to the Church at Pentecost) and the Church that evil has been restrained. Christ’s reign on Earth will begin when ALL the world will finally see Him and recognize Him as the True King and Messiah (Matt 24:29-30, Rev 1:7) when he comes with the Saints (the Second Coming—Revelation 19:11-16) to bring an end to the Great Tribulation and to usher in a period of peace.
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Ok, the with your statements that I was specifically responding to didn't seem to work. I apologize! I hope you can still follow and understand what I am saying above.
My continued response is below:
The coming 7 year tribulation is a special time set aside by God where complete evil reigns over the world by way of the Anti-Christ (the false Messiah, the Man of Sin). I look at this period like-- well, if the world (man) thinks they have it within them to be like God and rule over the world without Him-- if this is what the world is asking for and wants—then God will give it to them. And then those who asked for it will suffer the consequences of it.
The 1st 3 ½ years are to be a peaceful time—but it is to be a LIE. The 2nd half of the 7 years is when the Anti-Christ will reveal his true purpose and set himself up to be worshipped as God in God’s temple (physical). (2 Thess 2:4- He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” and Matt 24:15-30- “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out….). The mark of the Beast is to be established at this time. No one will do anything without the Man of Sin knowing about it. And with today’s technology even, that is completely possible.
1 Thess 4:16-18 and 5:1-3--
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
1 Thess 5-- Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
I don’t believe that the Rapture and the Second Coming are one and the same b/c for one, in 1 Thess 4:17 it says that we are “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. In Matt 25:13 it says that the Lord returns at an unknown hour. But again, before the Second Coming occurs, the events of the Tribulation (told in Daniel 9:20-27, Revelation chapters 6-19) must occur and it is on a timeline (7 years) with specific signs that are to happen before Christ returns to the earth with the Saints (as described in Revelation 19:14 dressed in fine, white, clean linen)-- to defeat the Anti-Christ, wipe out evil and set up His millennial kingdom on earth. The Rapture has no appointed time; nothing has to happen before it occurs; but there are signs and prophecies that must be fulfilled before Christ’s Second Coming.
The Bible DOES mention the millennial kingdom as one thousand years—this is described in Revelation 20:1-15. This happens after Christ’s second coming to earth to abolish evil and the Anti-Christ; and Satan is also seized and bound to the Abyss for 1000 years. He is kept there during this time and is unable to deceive the nations. Those left living on earth will live in PEACE under Christ’s glorious reign—and those who died for Christ during the Tribulation, who did not receive the mark of the beast or worship him (Rev 20:4), come to life at this time to also reign with Christ during the thousand years. But those who died during the Tribulation unsaved stay in death until the thousand years are ended and the time of Judgment; and as it states, after the thousand years are over, Satan will be loosed for a time and he will have another try at deceiving the nations. But this ultimately brings about his defeat and he is tossed into the Lake of Fire forever.
Then after this, comes the Judgment. And after the Judgment, the promise of a new Heaven and new Earth!
I do rejoice in anticipation of the glory that awaits us. I do not fear that day that I see my Savior face-to-face! What a day of rejoicing that will be!
But believing in the Rapture of the Church does not put me into any such fear. Instead I live in hope. It is my belief that God spares His children, Christ’s church, from the Hour of Trial (Revelation 3:10) and why should that put me in fear? I also don’t think it should put anyone else in fear who hears of it. How can it unless they choose it to be? God’s plan calls for man to repent and live in Christ and receive His promise of eternal life. In my opinion the Rapture does not change that one way or another because a person must still choose eternal life, or eternal death. It is just that for those who choose Life in the Son, the Rapture will spare them from the Hour of Trial. Believing in Christ has me looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our Great God and Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! (Titus 2:13) Amen!
Okay, back at ya. This is fun. Too bad we don't live in the same city so we could do this over a Cafe Latte!
I'll try and do the best I can with the ones you tried to quote and responded to, but didn't print. ::: sigh ::: Dang 'puters. That's happened to me before too. But without knowing which ones it was, I am not sure if the context of your response, or my answers, really corresponded to the original thought. Oh, and sorry this is so long-winded.
You: "It says in Genesis, “In the beginning, God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH”; these are two distinct places. He doesn’t combine the two into one universe"
Actually, it says HEAVENS, plural. Paul spoke of three heavens in 2 Corinthians 12:2 when he described the "third" heaven.
Scholars have long believed that the three "heavens" are as follows:
a) earth's atmosphere (abode of the flying creatures),
b) space (abode of the stars, the sun and the moon),
c) God's eternal throne where He dwells.
Obviously the first two are within the created order. God's throne in heaven is not, it is eternal.
You: "...and I think in terms of prophecy, and the mystery spoken of by Paul, it is a very important distinction.:
I agree. For that reason, you might consider that the failure to understand these distinctions accurately, might also impair the proper understanding of prophecy as well. I'll make that case as we go along.
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You: "Prophecy foretells of a coming Messianic Kingdom on Earth where Christ will reign (what the Jews were looking for and still are).
Yes, as you say, the prophecies in the Old Testament foretell its coming. That's why I quoted from Daniel about the Stone.
Where we differ is that I believe that Daniel's "future" prophecy has been fulfilled already in our past... Jesus came and fulfilled it when He came two thousand years ago.
Back then, there was a separation among the Jews. The UNBELIEVING Jews rejected Messiah Jesus, did not enter into His kingdom because of their unbelief, and there they remain to this day. However, the BELIEVING JEWS were the seed of the Church. Those Jews were the first Christians, and they did enter the Messianic Kingdom by faith. This is not a prophecy of a future fulfillment, but a past and present reality.
You: "The mystery given to and spoken of by Paul is Christ in heaven and our worship with Him there (Eph 2:4-10 and Eph.3:1-4)"
You quoted the right verses, but I think you're applying them out of context and incorrectly on two counts.
First. Today, the "kingdom" includes believing Gentiles, as well as believing Jews who convert. This is the "mystery" Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2:11-3:6 that was revealed in Christ:
"This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs (with the believing Jews) members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
The Jews thought they had salvation all to themselves.
Second. When you say "worship with Him *there*", are you saying we cannot worship Him here and now?? I doubt that! We worship Him now, so we must be in the kingdom "now", even though He is most certainly "there" in the ascended bodily sense!
So, the kingdom is a present reality, in three distinctions:
1) Heaven, i.e. where Christ dwells and reigns in God's throne after He ascended, and
2) Heaven on earth, i.e. the visible church consisted of believing Jews and Gentiles, and
3) Heaven "within us", Christ reigning through the indwelling Spirit in each individual believer.
Just as there are three "levels" in the "three heavens" of God the CREATOR, there are three "heavens" in the Temple of God the REDEEMER. TWO are temporal, and ONE is eternal.
Likewise, there are three "ages", or "millenniums" of time. TWO are temporal (before and after Christ), and the last ONE is the EVERLASTING, final age, still to come.
You: "Again, 2 distinctions: Kingdom of Heaven (where Christ has already sat down at the right hand of God) and Kingdom on Earth (where He is yet to be acknowledged as King of Kings and Lord of Lords). The nations and inhabitants of the Earth reject Christ, He does not yet rule on Earth. (Tho as you state, He rules spiritually in the hearts of His believers—His Church)"
Again, I say, THREE distinctions.
We agree that Christ has been acknowledged in God's throne room; and among His people in His spiritual kingdom on earth the church. Our job is to bear witness of Him, preach, baptize, make disciples and teach the the nations all that he commanded us. For two thousand years, that's what we've been doing. So when that witness is complete, what's left?
In 2 Peter 3:13, when the apostle Peter tells us "the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!"
Note that:
a) He does not mention that Jesus is already ruling in Jerusalem, does he? I believe he is referring to the end of THIS age.
b) He says "HeavenS", plural, in both cases.... The fire that dissolves the heavenS is plural, and we await a new HeavenS, plural.
Obviously, since God's throne is eternal, it won't be dissolved. So what will pass away? The earth's atmosphere, and space, the universe. One must presume that the Jerusalem that now exists will burn as well. Therefore, it leaves no room for interpretation of a future millenial reign of Christ on the earth.
In the next verse, he goes on to say: "But according to his promise WE are waiting for new HEAVENS and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." Did you note that Peter said "WE ARE WAITING"? Not some future people in a future millenium are waiting....
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You: The Bible DOES mention the millennial kingdom as one thousand years—this is described in Revelation 20:1-15.
No, it says "A thousand years", not ONE thousand years. If you study the hermeneutical rules of biblical interpretation, you will see that when scriptures place a number(ordinal) in front of a noun, it is literal, e.g. ".. in SIX days the Lord created the heavens and the earth"... BUT when it uses a preposition, it is not, especially in a book of symbolism! The distinction between the use of "a" and "one" is critical to understanding the verse. Those who twist the grammar, twist the scriptures.
In addition, you may not be aware of this, but the premillenial system just assumes that the book of Revelation is written chronologically. But why? There is an alternative view that the writer uses a literary style called "recapitulation", and it is NOT written "chronologically". That's why so many of the verses begin with the world "And..." As if the writer were seeing a vision from many perspectives, and describing the same events from various points of view. Here is an excellent article on that subject, and I highly recommend you read and consider it. "The Recapitulation of Revelation 19 and 20"
So, whether the millenium is "a long time" (symbolic) or a literal 1000 calendar years, where is that future millennium age ON EARTH ever mentioned? It isn't! The new heavens and new earth where RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells are always described as following the age we are currently IN now, so SATAN could not possibly remain once THIS age is completed. This IS the last time.
You: "The Holy Spirit restrains and the Prayers of the Saints (the Church) help to restrain evil on the Earth. The two are intimately linked together and work together to further God’s Kingdom. Before the Man of Sin arrives to rule the earth for a time and set himself up to be worshipped as the false Messiah, the Holy Spirit’s work on earth must be diminished and to do that the Church must be taken out of the way."
I disagree with the premise that the prophecy of the past can ONLY apply to our future, skipping over all of what has transpired in between. It is the same problem as skipping over the fact that the Kingdom of Christ came in the past and is a present reality, in favor of postponing it for a future millennial period that has no hermeneutical justification. Therefore, I agree with your description of the church and the Spirit's activity with the stipulation that it has been ongoing for two thousand years. Jesus told us to be "Salt" and "light", and so it has always been our mission to do as you said.
Consequently, I think that the "man of sin" was a first century false messiah, a literal and imminent fulfillment, but also a type for many future candidates who fit the bill as well. (more on that later). So, there have been many false messiahs, and there will probably more, and a global BIG one too. Personally, I think Obama is shaping up to one of those as well. (another subject for another time).
You: "The true church includes the saints who believe in the finality of Christ’s work on the Cross and in repentance of their sins have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. "
Agreed. I prefer the term "believed in Him". I do not suscribe to the theology of those who teach that fallen, sinful men must take the initiative to "accept" Him first. In Ephesians 1:6, it says that we are "made accepted in the Beloved" (KJV, NKJV). God took the initiative to make us acceptable to Himself in Christ, not vice versa. Because of Christ's completed work on the cross, the Spirit applies that redemption to us, in regeneration (new birth), conviction and repentance, and calling us to faith through the gospel. We are recipients of this grace, through faith, not procurers of it. Our belief is the evidence of this grace, not its prerequisite. BTW "accepted" in Eph. 1:6 is the same word used of Mary when the angel visited her to announce that she had been chosen to be the mother of the Savior. God accepted her, chose her, for that role, and she simply responded by believing what the angel told her, and obeyed. These are the true church.
I part company theologically with those who teach that we have the ability to "choose Christ" as fallen creatures. Ephesians 2 describes all men as "dead in our trespasses and sins" until the Spirit takes the initiative through the new birth, to quicken us and give us the ability to repent of our sins, to believe the gospel and trust in Christ. Apart from that, 1 Cor. 2 says the "natural man" is UNABLE to discern spiritual things, the things of God - spiritually dead and unable to "choose eternal life". That's why John 3:18 says that those who have NOT believed in the Son of God are "condemned already".
That was sort of a rabbit trail, sorry, but I had to get it out.
You: True, up until this time the saints in America have been spared the rod of those who oppose Christianity unlike those in other countries. But our country was founded on Christian principles and freedom under God. He has graciously kept us from such persecution and we have been blessed beyond belief so that we may take the good news of Christ to other nations. America has sent more missionaries than any other country out into the world! Unfortunately America is moving away from her Christian roots and Christians are being persecuted; not so much violently—yet—but by being shut out and removed from the public square and mocked and scoffed at. Then there are the false teachers who have infiltrated the Church; to deceive even the elect, if that were possible. Apparently it is!
Apparently it is! Can't argue with you on any of that! Amen. Just be careful to always keep separate the judgment of God upon the individual (eternal), from that of a nation (temporal) and remember that God also judges the church (discipline). Each within its own context. For "judgment begins at the house of God"! Remember the warning to Ezekiel's watchman. Again, our job is to bear witness to the Truth, not only for the sake of salvation for the sake of the elect (2 Timothy 2:10), but also because the word of God is a two edged sword by which all shall be judged on the last day. (John 12:4
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You: "But up to this time, it has been thru the combined work of the Holy Spirit (given to the Church at Pentecost) and the Church that evil has been restrained..... (SNIP)
.... So far so good! Agree with all that.
You: "Christ’s reign on Earth will begin when"...
This is what I disagree with. I believe He's already reigning FROM heaven and ON earth through His people, i.e. Here AND "there" AND now, forever.
You: ".. ALL the world will finally see Him and recognize Him as the True King and Messiah (Matt 24:29-30, Rev 1:7) when he comes with the Saints (the Second Coming—Revelation 19:11-16)
Agreed. The revelation of Christ will be universal in scope.
You: ".. to bring an end to the Great Tribulation and to usher in a period of peace."
Okay, there's another aspect of the problem with the premillenial scheme of last things -- it requires THREE comings. Neither the scriptures or the historical teachings of the church expect THREE comings, only two. One in the past, and one in the future.
1) He came the first time to atone for sin.
2) He comes a second time in secret at the rapture.
3) He comes 7 years later to conquer, and to reign.
You: The coming 7 year tribulation is a special time set aside by God where complete evil reigns over the world by way of the Anti-Christ (the false Messiah, the Man of Sin). I look at this period like--(SNIP)..... God's temple physical. (2 Thess 2:4- He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
I understand the system you are describing. Remember it is the prevailing view, and has been thoroughly expounded in just about every church.
The trouble with all that (aside from the fact that the "system" is not supported by scripture), is that none of what you attribute to ONE period of time, "a special time", is unique to a literal / calendar period, i.e. "7 year" tribulation. It has always our lot to suffer since the inception of the church. In fact, in the OT, the Jews had to deal with those tribulations too. The apostle John attests to this when he wrote the book of Revelation on the Isle of Patmos! In Revelation 1:9, he writes: - " John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation AND in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Not only was he in tribulation, he was also in the kingdom!
As to a "special "antichrist, again this is dispelled in scripture by the apostle John. In the first century, there were rumors circulating identical to that which the premill system teaches today.
1 John 2:18 says "Little children, it is the LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even NOW are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it IS the last time." In other words, he was saying to them two thousands years ago, "Look, we're in the last days ALREADY. There isn't just one antichrist, there are lots of them! The fact that we're surrounded by them is proof of the fact these ARE the last days!"
Why? Because that's what Jesus said in Matthew 24 that would happen in "THEIR FUTURE" -- which is now in our past (and present) reality. These things were written two thousand years ago!! That's what I'm trying to point out to you -- the "last days", the final age of the earth already began in our past. The "last days" which started then were the "new age" (won't all those pagan "new agers" be shocked too!!) The last days, the "millennial age", the final age of the earth, all of those are concurrent with the fact that the "kingdom of God" began at Christ's ascension. Its already come, and we are in it now. All that remains is the return of Christ, i.e. "second" and ONLY coming, and the EVERLASTING age.
You: "Matt 24:15-30- “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out….). The mark of the Beast is to be established at this time. No one will do anything without the Man of Sin knowing about it. And with today’s technology even, that is completely possible."
1) The "abomination of desolation" prophesied by Daniel was the desecration of the Holy of Holies in the Jerusalem Temple. To the Jews, it was the exclusive place where God's presence dwelt with man on the earth. History records that Romans destroyed the Holy of Holies, and most of Jerusalem, in 70 AD. That event is PAST.
2) Therefore, the "abomination of desolation" happened to the people of Israel, exclusively. That is why the next verse tells the people of JUDEA to "flee to the mountains". If it were in our future, the entire body of Christ for the last two thousand years would have to immediately move to JUDEA, (waiting on our roofs?), just in case Christ had returned! But where is the New Testament command for all Christians to move to Judea in Israel? Its not there. And how would we know to get there in time, if we don't know the day of His return? Either somebody is misapplying the context of Matthew 24/Mark 13, or Jesus forgot to tell us something very important.
3) The term "abomination of desolation" appears in the gospels written by Matthew (24) and Mark (13) both of whom were Jews. But there is a parallel passage in Luke 21:19-20 which describes the SAME EVENT, only Luke is a Gentile. He writes of that event in much clearer terms so that the rest of us unfamiliar with the Jewish context can understand. Here's what Luke says: "And when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is NEAR. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her." See what I mean? Its not speaking of an event in our future, or of something that will happen to the new testament church, but to Jerusalem, and the Jews understood it to mean the desolation of the Temple.
4) If you can show me where in ANY of those verses there is a reference to the "mark of the beast", I would like to see it. Its not there. Conversely, where in Revelation 13 (esp. verse 17) does it connect to any of those "abomination of desolation" verses? It doesn't.
You: 1 Thess 4:16-18 and 5:1-3.... I don’t believe that the Rapture and the Second Coming are one and the same b/c for one, in 1 Thess 4:17 it says that we are “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. In Matt 25:13 it says that the Lord returns at an unknown hour.....fulfilled before the Second Coming.
Again, I've already explained why I believe the premillenial system confuses and disjoins the rapture and the resurrection, so the "caught up" distinction is moot. At His coming, Christ puts an end to our bodily death in the grave, so He's obviously engaged in suspending physical laws. In either view, being "caught up" is not the "issue". But separating the rapture and the resurrection into seperate events in order to make His coming "secret", insert another millenium, a new temple, a demotion of Christ back to earth, and create a whole weird scenario of resurrected people in the future milleniual kingdom, now THAT is the travesty of misinterpretation.
It also ignores the fact that MOST of the old testament prophecies have been already fulfilled in OUR past by Christ Himself! Those prophecies were in their future when first uttered, but now our past. Premillenialism skips over the last two thousand years of history as if they were of no consquence, and projects fulfilled prophecy as if it were unfulfilled until some future time, whether its the 7 year tribulation, or whatever. Its all a disjointed system with no sense of the historical flow of events as revealed in the bible. The idea that there are two "time flows" in the universe, one for regular time ,and a hyperspace warp drive for prophecy is the stuff of Star Trek, not God's word.
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You: I do rejoice in anticipation of the glory that awaits us. I do not fear that day that I see my Savior face-to-face! What a day of rejoicing that will be!
You rejoice because you are "pre-trib" and don't believe you will have to suffer tribulationl. And I am glad you don't fear!
On the other hand, how you will handle it if "A GREAT TRIBULATION" comes upon you without someone announcing that THE 7 years has officially begun? What if you DO find yourself in tribulation after all, like John on Patmos? Will your faith be tested by fire because you weren't expecting to be caught up in it? I just hope your "system" hasn't set you up for a false expectation.
I know many "post-tribs" who are ready for that eventuality, but are positively TERRIFIED of being left behind at His coming! They lack the "assurance" of salvation! Then there's the "mid-tribs" fearful of Armageddon -- hoarding food, guns, stashing gold, seeds, and preparing for war instead of relying on God's provision, and the glory to come. They're focused in an earthly survival mentality. Or they're obsessed with fighting God's battle for Him as if they could add one iota to Christ's power. Its ridiculous, and it all offends me deeply.
You: But believing in the Rapture of the Church does not put me into any such fear. Instead I live in hope. It is my belief that God spares His children, Christ’s church, from the Hour of Trial (Revelation 3:10) and why should that put me in fear? I also don’t think it should put anyone else in fear who hears of it. How can it unless they choose it to be?
That hour of trial is the Day of God's wrath that falls on the unbelieving world, Satan and his demons. No matter what eschatological system we believe in, ALL Christians are saved from God's wrath. But that is not the "great tribulation" because even in premillienialism, there MUST be a day of wrath AGAIN after the milenium, when Satan and his demons and the wicked are cast into hell. TWO wraths?? Now where do you find that in scripture?
You: God’s plan calls for man to repent and live in Christ and receive His promise of eternal life. In my opinion the Rapture does not change that one way or another because a person must still choose eternal life, or eternal death.
Jesus said in John 17:3 that eternal life is "to know Him, the only true and living God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent". We "inherit" eternal life by Grace because Jesus died. Nowhere in scripture does it say that we "choose" eternal life. If salvation were a matter of OUR OWN choices, then God would not receive the glory and the praises of His great grace! Well might we boast if faith were not completely a GIFT, not of our own choosing! There is a difference between raising a dead man, and throwing a ladder to one who is drowning. The latter contributes to his salvation, but the bible teaches that "SALVATION IS OF THE LORD"! (Jonah)
Nor does scripture teach that we "choose" eternal death either. You're just heard that repeated so often that you believe it. Damnation is the natural result of SIN and JUDGMENT, and that started from teh garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned". Where is the choice in that? We are "conceived in sin", and "condemned already" apart from God's sovereign grace!
It is a sad fact that bad theology produces bad eschatology, and I am deeply saddened that you have been taught both. YES, the "elect" can be deceived, like "children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine" by false teachers who have taken the church captive. Study the historical creeds and confessions, and you will see that the things I've been telling you are what the church has believed in centuries past. Just as Americans have lost their heritage, their history, their values, their principles and soon will suffer the loss of their liberties because of it, that process began in the house of God! When truth dies with us, the nation folllows.
Nevertheless, I rejoice that we are one in this: "Believing in Christ has me looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our Great God and Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! (Titus 2:13) Amen!" I join with you in saying, Amen!
Well, I appreciate your response! Thank you for having this discussion with me. I wish we could do it over Cafe Latte's, even tho we might drink out the cafe given the subject and our agreements and disagreements about it. I do see some of your points. To be certain, it doesn't matter to me when Christ comes again, as long as He comes. And He will come again! Amen. That being said, I still believe in the literal interpretation and timeline set out in each chapter of Revelation and that we are not yet in the 70th week as described in Daniel. But again, I think the most important thing to believe is that Christ will ultimately triumph over His enemies. And I can't wait to see my Savior face-to-face!
Amen to that, Chic! God bless and please do continue to stay in touch. We're family.
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